Star Wars vs Star Trek

[George1]

The ST interphase cloaking device operates as a correlate to the Dune no-field:


By leaving the normal space-time continuum it would follow that gravity would still apply but separately from said continuum. To use a sensor to register their gravity would mean they need to access their particular 'phase' of space-time.

As for Dune, I contend that it is the superior choice on the poll. If you wish to debate that, then read up on it. If not, then meh... it's not like my contentions are able to rise above the ST-SW animosity very well (the woes of supporting a contender that's not in the title).

i see.thank you for summing that up.

[Sardonic Crisis]

And the interphase cloak does make it invisible, this is when they are decloaking:

[George1]

And the interphase cloak does make it invisible, this is when they are decloaking:

hmm...see guys THIS proves things,not useless technobabble.
now i am convinced that i was wrong about earlier comments,all was needed was some proof...many didn't provided proof in support for they'll claims,and not just ST fans.

[Sardonic Crisis]

side note: "Time's Arrow" proves that Q's comments about her have substance. About her periodic name changes, about her being an 'imp'...

This substance can be exaggerated claims of an obviously perturbed Q. Name changes happen, especially when you consider how old she is; perhaps she gets bored with her name after awhile. The designation of "Q" would be a prime example of something ageless that possibly finds designations pointless. As to the "imp" designation:

imp
   /ɪmp/ Show Spelled[imp] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a little devil or demon; an evil spirit.
2.
a mischievous child.
3.
Archaic. a scion or offshoot of a plant or tree.
4.
Archaic. an offspring.

Entries 1 & 2 would most likely be the intention behind the word usage. Q calling Guinan an "imp" is like the pot calling the kettle black. The connotation would seem to be that she is a mischievous being. The body language of their stand-off says more than the possible front Q might have been presenting to Picard to keep his air of superiority. They appeared to both be ready for a fight and Guinan acted as though she had the means to protect herself if need be. Also, if Q was able to really deal with her as easily as he said, then he wouldn't have had such a reaction as his body language and tone of voice conveyed. He was obviously agitated by her presence and, for a being with god-like powers to be agitated by someone, it speaks of much more substance than the truth-value of what he says. The situation implies they were really on equal grounds; why Guinan doesn't interfere with Q's meddling could have been due to a number of factors:
1. There was an agreement between her and the Continuum to prevent conflict from happening. (this seems credible due to her vague exposition of having had dealings with the Continuum before)
2. She refused to meddle due to a Prime-directive type of reasoning.(She comes from a race of listeners which might imply helping people find their own answers rather than forcing them down a path)
3. She was physically incapable of stopping him from meddling with anything but herself. (lent credibility by her not stopping Q from sending the Enterprise to the Borg but could be explained by the previous two)

[Hellblade8]

still,hiding gravity is highly unrealistic,even for a SF.
no dude,i don't buy it. cuz as gravity is a fundamental force,even if you succeed in hiding it, who knows what effects it might have on the bodies inside the area. even if its real,i say is to dangerous to try...at least on maned ship.

What you do or do not buy is irrelevant. We are specifically told that the use of gravity detection is not a full proof manner of finding a Romulan warbird--which should be obvious given how utterly useless it would be if it couldn't hide the massive gravity well that is its reactor core.

[Hellblade8]

hmm...see guys THIS proves things,not useless technobabble.
now i am convinced that i was wrong about earlier comments,all was needed was some proof...many didn't provided proof in support for they'll claims,and not just ST fans.

Um, I already sourced something that indicated that they had gravmetric sensors. What does that mean? It means they detect gravity! What did your (very rare) device do? Detect gravity! What method of cloak detection was deemed unreliable? Hmmm, gravity!

Obviously, the Romulans are capable of hiding their gravitational fields, at least to an extent.

[George1]

Um, I already sourced something that indicated that they had gravmetric sensors. What does that mean? It means they detect gravity! What did your (very rare) device do? Detect gravity! What method of cloak detection was deemed unreliable? Hmmm, gravity!

yeah,you'll point?

Obviously, the Romulans are capable of hiding their gravitational fields, at least to an extent.

what good,is to an extent if it is not total?

[Hellblade8]

yeah,you'll point?

That your sensor system, which I will again, remind you is rare, at best will work maybe 50% of the time.

what good,is to an extent if it is not total?

We don't know what sort of sensativity it requires on the Warbird's part. Again, the fact that it has to be able to hide its gravity must be plausible for the cloak to at all be effective. Again, I remind you that their ships carry around small black holes. If they couldn't somehow hide that signature, then a cloak, no matter how good, is entirely worthless.

[George1]

That your sensor system, which I will again, remind you is rare, at best will work maybe 50% of the time.

rare yes,50% chances ,maybe.

We don't know what sort of sensativity it requires on the Warbird's part. Again, the fact that it has to be able to hide its gravity must be plausible for the cloak to at all be effective. Again, I remind you that their ships carry around small black holes. If they couldn't somehow hide that signature, then a cloak, no matter how good, is entirely worthless.

they carry a black hole?that just increases they'll chances of being detected by a CGT.and again, you can't hide you'll gravity signature.that discussion is over.

[Apocalypse2001]

the problem with the phase cloak is that the ship is still visible,to everyone,
which contradicts its description. any matter or energy should pass through the sip,that including light,sensors etc.
but we got out the main problem,which is hiding you'll gravity.
General relativity describes gravity as a geometric property of space and time,the curvature of spacetime is directly related to the four-momentum (mass-energy and linear momentum) of whatever matter and radiation are present.
if gravity is the curvature of spacetime,then you can't hide gravity.period.
the ships own existence gives it away.

i don't want to argue about Dune,i don't know hell bout Dune.

no it doesn't contradict. The component that creates the field to phase it includes EVERYTHING INSIDE THE FIELD. So the people inside the ship, who can still see their surroundings, makes perfect logic.

[Apocalypse2001]

This substance can be exaggerated claims of an obviously perturbed Q. Name changes happen, especially when you consider how old she is; perhaps she gets bored with her name after awhile. The designation of "Q" would be a prime example of something ageless that possibly finds designations pointless. As to the "imp" designation:

Entries 1 & 2 would most likely be the intention behind the word usage. Q calling Guinan an "imp" is like the pot calling the kettle black. The connotation would seem to be that she is a mischievous being. The body language of their stand-off says more than the possible front Q might have been presenting to Picard to keep his air of superiority. They appeared to both be ready for a fight and Guinan acted as though she had the means to protect herself if need be. Also, if Q was able to really deal with her as easily as he said, then he wouldn't have had such a reaction as his body language and tone of voice conveyed. He was obviously agitated by her presence and, for a being with god-like powers to be agitated by someone, it speaks of much more substance than the truth-value of what he says. The situation implies they were really on equal grounds; why Guinan doesn't interfere with Q's meddling could have been due to a number of factors:
1. There was an agreement between her and the Continuum to prevent conflict from happening. (this seems credible due to her vague exposition of having had dealings with the Continuum before)
2. She refused to meddle due to a Prime-directive type of reasoning.(She comes from a race of listeners which might imply helping people find their own answers rather than forcing them down a path)
3. She was physically incapable of stopping him from meddling with anything but herself. (lent credibility by her not stopping Q from sending the Enterprise to the Borg but could be explained by the previous two)

yeah :P I had thought of similar explanations, but I was too tired too tired to think lol
Yes those three points are very good.

[George1]

no it doesn't contradict. The component that creates the field to phase it includes EVERYTHING INSIDE THE FIELD. So the people inside the ship who can still see their ship makes perfect logic.

no,you misunderstood what i meant. i was referring OUTSIDE the field.
bu i was mistaken.

[Hellblade8]

rare yes,50% chances ,maybe.

So, how is it that the Romulan Empire is going to be at all troubled with an inferior method of detection that is so rare that their chances of crossing it is about 1/10? This is opposed to the UFP by the way, who have their entire border laced with this and more superior methods of ship detection through cloaks.

And that's not even including the scimitar, which passed all of these methods of detection without problem.

they carry a black hole?that just increases they'll chances of being detected by a CGT.and again, you can't hide you'll gravity signature.that discussion is over.

Yeah, try again.

DS9's Visionary:

DAX: I've been scanning the area around the station out to a radius of two kilometres, and I didn't find anything at first. Then I started to scan some of the lower subspace bandwidths. I found traces of low-level tetryon emissions.
O'BRIEN: I've never seen an emission pattern like that outside of a neutron star.
DAX: Or a quantum singularity. And singularities are known to send out waves of temporal displacement.
O'BRIEN: But if there is a singularity nearby why can't we find it? It should also be affecting the gravimetric field signatures.
DAX: I don't know. Maybe it's buried so far down in the subspace layers that we can't detect it.
SISKO: Assuming for the moment that a singularity is responsible, how do we combat its effects on the Chief?

........

SISKO: Go ahead, Chief.
O'BRIEN 2: I've been to the future, Commander. The quantum singularity off the station is actually in the warp core of a cloaked

[Ops]

O'BRIEN 2 [OC]: Romulan warbird. They're going to decloak and fire on us in a matter of hours.
SISKO: Understood, Chief. Raise shields. Stand by weapons systems.

.......

SISKO: I know you have a cloaked warbird orbiting the station, and I know you're planning an attack. At first, I couldn't understand why, and then I remembered what you said about the Dominion. How they were the greatest threat to the Alpha Quadrant in the last century. If you really believed that, then the only way you could ever be truly safe from the Dominion would be to collapse the wormhole.
KIRA: But you knew we wouldn't just sit by and watch while you did it, so you had to destroy the station too. That way, there'd be no witnesses.
ODO: Everyone would assume that Deep Space Nine was destroyed by what appeared to be the accidental collapse of the wormhole.
KARINA: An interesting theory, Commander. But that's all it is. A theory.
SISKO: That's right. But I'll tell you what's not a theory. We tracked the tetryon emissions back to your warbird and I have about fifty photon torpedoes locked on to it right now.
RUWON: I think it's time we left.
SISKO: I couldn't agree more. Constable, will you please escort our guests to the nearest transporter room.
ODO: If you'll come with me.

So in other words, the Romulans had a cloaked warbird in orbit of the station. Whose gravity field they could not detect because it was cloaked or somehow hidden. In fact, the only way they could detectit was through the technobabble tetryon emissions in subspace. And they only did that because O'Brian was tme shifting.

Your argument has been soundly defeated. Claiming that it's impossible is really just silly now. You might as well claim that beause Warp travel is impossible, that thus the UFP ships can't move at FTL speeds.

[George1]

So, how is it that the Romulan Empire is going to be at all troubled with an inferior method of detection that is so rare that their chances of crossing it is about 1/10? This is opposed to the UFP by the way, who have their entire border laced with this and more superior methods of ship detection through cloaks.

And that's not even including the scimitar, which passed all of these methods of detection without problem.

yes,but it won't pass the CGT.they are rare,but not that rare.they cost a few thousand credits.the Empire would easily fit them on all of they'll star destroyers.

Yeah, try again.

DS9's Visionary:


So in other words, the Romulans had a cloaked warbird in orbit of the station. Whose gravity field they could not detect because it was cloaked or somehow hidden. In fact, the only way they could detect it was through the technobabble tetryon emissions in subspace. And they only did that because O'Brian was tme shifting.

technobabble dose NOT prove anything.
again,you can't hide gravity.

Your argument has been soundly defeated. Claiming that it's impossible is really just silly now. You might as well claim that beause Warp travel is impossible, that thus the UFP ships can't move at FTL speeds.

warp IS POSSIBLE,in real life we call it Alcubierre drive.

where do you get all these claims?back them up with some real science or they'll just technobabble.technobabble is useless.

[George1]

The Death Star I fires its planet destroying superlaser at Alderaan, a beam with a calculated energy of 1E38 J. This energy beam strikes the planetary shield, but the planet does not begin to sustain damage for another tenth of a second. This means that, before giving out, the shield was able to dissipate 1E37 J of energy.

[George1]

i changed m mind about the Phase cloak.EVERY single Phase cloak ever to appear in every SF are totally implausible.
1-when someone s phased sifter,like Geordi and Laren,were invisible, but they could still see (interaction with light is required for vision).
2-Geordi and Laren were inaudible, but they could still hear normally and even speak to each other (interaction with air is required to make or hear sound -- not to mention breathe, which they were also doing normally)
3-Geordi and Laren could walk through walls, but they could also walk on the deck and ride in shuttlecraft (interaction with solid matter is necessary to walk or even stand).
and that's available for every other SF,including Stargate.

[George1]

star trek troll: they frequently miss use real theories.
for instance the theory of evolution. Aliens and humans often undergo a metamorphosis into some kind of different creature, with the event described as an "evolutionary" change.
Real evolution occurs from one generation to the next,as different traits are selected by natural selection in different proportions in subsequent generations. Metamorphosis is NOT evolution.

[Kittamaru]

yes,but it won't pass the CGT.they are rare,but not that rare.they cost a few thousand credits.the Empire would easily fit them on all of they'll star destroyers.



technobabble dose NOT prove anything.
again,you can't hide gravity.


warp IS POSSIBLE,in real life we call it Alcubierre drive.

where do you get all these claims?back them up with some real science or they'll just technobabble.technobabble is useless.

Dude, George... here's the thing.

They DID hide gravity.

It is cannon.

Thus, you cannot simply say it's impossible because the Real Life laws of physics currently say it is impossible.

Otherwise, we can say, quite simply, the Force doesn't exist because it's impossible.

See what I'm getting at?

[Kittamaru]

star trek troll: they frequently miss use real theories.
for instance the theory of evolution. Aliens and humans often undergo a metamorphosis into some kind of different creature, with the event described as an "evolutionary" change.
Real evolution occurs from one generation to the next,as different traits are selected by natural selection in different proportions in subsequent generations. Metamorphosis is NOT evolution.

Is there a point to this...? Star Wars mis-uses real theories even more often... so what? Suspension of disbelief dude...

[George1]

Is there a point to this...? Star Wars mis-uses real theories even more often... so what? Suspension of disbelief dude...

and WHERE did they MISS-used real theories?episode 1?2? the clone wars?
go watch some SW before you talk about it.