Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Because even an Imperial Fleet with ICS calcs would take weeks or months to break apart Alderaan if we assume the minimum of 7 Zettatons to break apart the planet (it would take far long for them to input 10e38joules that the first Death Star did). They expected to find a completely intact planet. Han was simply in such shock that he just blurted what came to mind. Also if we take the Whole Starfleet Not Being Able to Do it we also have to accept that somehow the Empire only has ONE THOUSAND Warships.

Not necessarily - he was starting to say something else. It would take a thousand starships with more firepower than I've- and he gets cut off. its likely he was going to say "than I've ever seen" or something along those lines.

Not without a week or two of bombardment. It was quicker and ‘safer” (for the target) to send in a ground force to attack and knock out the shield generator.



As I said see the Boom Table at Atomic Rockets.com. It is a very helpful site.



Now I point out this is something that is disproven by history. The Rebels have stood up to the Empire to put and end to this terror.

With what resources though... I mean, why didn't the Empire just snuff them out planet by planet at that point?

Depends on how you look at it really. When you get right done to it DET IS stronger because of the brute force nature, NDF on the other hand uses exotic effects and such to get the job done with less energy. It really just depends on the technological base of the Sci-fi in question.



IIRC has something to do with sending some of the energy into the Warp and either defelcting or redirecting the rest.

Buh? Into the Warp itself? That's sure to piss some daemons off.

True, but given the f*** up physics of 40K I would put my money on it being one those materials Phasers have problems with (see Packing/Borg Crates for one ). And even taking into account that the Imperium rules over a million worlds and has a massive fleet.

Yeah, the packing crates thing is... irritating at the very least. There are reasonable explanations that make sense (Phasers having onboard targeting systems that only release the full power blast once the intended target is hit) and that is supported by how Phasers have been seen to fire off-angle (eg, not straight from the focal point of their emitter)

Point is the Irkens can stuff a massive bang in small object and still use DET. Really just comes down to the tech base of the universe in question.

But of course their so advance it could be a rubber duck firing laser beams and farting bioweapons and it would still work.



Like someone pointing at the poll here and saying Star Wars wins because it has the most votes. Though I may just be snapping a bit here after looking at claims of Petatons blowing planets apart.



How so? The only two design flaws I can think of is the lack of anti-fighter weapons and the 2 meter Exhaust port. And when you really just take a look at it, it isn't really a MAJOR flaw. Without the plans I can't imagine anyone trying to find something the size of hte exhaust port on the first DS.

There's also the fact that a random astromech droid was able to run-amock with the stations computer, overriding doors and security systems left and right. The fact that internal sensors weren't able to track the Rebels onboard. Among other things

No, it would take a few weeks or so for a couple dozen to mass scatter a planet to an orbiting asteroid belt (7 Zettatons per AR.com Boom Table).



True. But you also have to consider that we also have a general (also a fromer Imperial if I can recalling correctly) who would know more than Han and has no reason to be hyperboling is saying he is wrong pretty much.

Who's that?

And the reason the Death Star was built is because it is the 'Ultimate Weapon' which there is no defense against - no planetary shields strong enough, and no number of capital ships that could defend you. The Death Star appears several hundred thousand kilometers away and and a few seconds later - bam - nothing but an expanding cloud of dust remains of a heavily shielded planet with a massive defense fleet.

Perhaps, but Vader himself said that "it is nothing next to the power of the force". if that is true, that means the Force should be able to obliterate planets... right?

[ricrery]

Perhaps, but Vader himself said that "it is nothing next to the power of the force". if that is true, that means the Force should be able to obliterate planets... right?

It does , see Nihilus. See Sith Lords pulling the core of the star and hurling them.

[Kittamaru]

It does , see Nihilus. See Sith Lords pulling the core of the star and hurling them.

And again, my position that due to Newtons 3rd Law of Motion shows how physically impossible this is...

Also, where do we see Sith Lords pulling the cores out of stars... Darth Sidious had some problem throwing what appears to be a giant boiler at Yoda...

[ProphetofWisdom]

Not necessarily - he was starting to say something else. It would take a thousand starships with more firepower than I've- and he gets cut off. its likely he was going to say "than I've ever seen" or something along those lines.

True.

With what resources though... I mean, why didn't the Empire just snuff them out planet by planet at that point?

Look at one of the battles between the Romans and ancient Israelites when a thousand or so if I recall correctly spent 2 years under seige in a single fort (around 70 C.E as I recall). Sure, most of them chose suicide just before the Romans broke through, but they had no hope of beating Roman yet fought on.

Yeah, the packing crates thing is... irritating at the very least. There are reasonable explanations that make sense (Phasers having onboard targeting systems that only release the full power blast once the intended target is hit) and that is supported by how Phasers have been seen to fire off-angle (eg, not straight from the focal point of their emitter)

Hm, this reminds me of a sub-force thread at SB that had jokes about the packing crates. I'll see if I can find it later. Everyone will get a good laugh out of it.

There's also the fact that a random astromech droid was able to run-amock with the stations computer, overriding doors and security systems left and right. The fact that internal sensors weren't able to track the Rebels onboard. Among other things

Will, R2 was only going after systems that would have minimum security. And on Obi Wan sneaking around he gets a past for being a Jedi. *Shrugs* Jedi can pull off a lot of things with the Force.

Who's that?

The Rebel General who was giving the rebel pilots the briefing on the attack on the Death Star in ANH. Dodana... Doddna. Bah, I know I'm close but I can't remember the name exactly.

Perhaps, but Vader himself said that "it is nothing next to the power of the force". if that is true, that means the Force should be able to obliterate planets... right?

Sith Lords from several thousand years ago did this. Some need dark side artifacts though to help pull some of it off. Its just by the time we get to the modern SW era both the Sith and Jedi have been in decline from over a thousand years.

Also, where do we see Sith Lords pulling the cores out of stars... Darth Sidious had some problem throwing what appears to be a giant boiler at Yoda...

*Points at Dark Empire* Obi Wan was right when he warned Vader not to strike him down. The Emperor came back and earned the name "Wankatine".

[ProphetofWisdom]

Another quote from SB on the Imperium Vs. UFP.

Dropping the IoM on the Federation is like dousing the idyllic valley of the cute, fluffy bunnies with Agent Orange.

And then firebombing it.

[Kittamaru]

*shrugs* I never said the Feds would win, but I don't think it'd be the curbstomp people make it out to be.

I mean, hell... could the IoM even HIT a Federation starship at high impulse? Most IoM battles appear to take place at approximately the speed of smell...

[ricrery]

*shrugs* I never said the Feds would win, but I don't think it'd be the curbstomp people make it out to be.

Oh minus the FTL, G acceleration, firepower, durability, shielding, and overall tech advantage, how is not a curbstomp?

I mean, hell... could the IoM even HIT a Federation starship at high impulse? Most IoM battles appear to take place at approximately the speed of smell...

Why yes, they accelerate .80c, way faster than what you see Federation ships going at. Actually, DS9 is all you need to see why Fed ships are slow, those shots during the Klingon/Fed battle would HORRENDOUSLY slow.

[ProphetofWisdom]

*shrugs* I never said the Feds would win, but I don't think it'd be the curbstomp people make it out to be.

I know, I was just quoting it because of how funny it was.

I mean, hell... could the IoM even HIT a Federation starship at high impulse? Most IoM battles appear to take place at approximately the speed of smell...

From what I've read at SB cruise speed for IoM ships is .75 C. Their on the insane acceleration end like the Irkens.

[ricrery]

I know, I was just quoting it because of how funny it was.

Actually, one escort ship can pump out more firepower than the entire Alpha Quadrant

[Apocalypse2001]

correction: Nobody realized the massive mistake i made. When we were discussing Uxbridge and what he did, and about Quark in DS9, i mixed up Nausicans and Husnok. THE HUSNOK are extinct. NOT the Nausicans. Quark was talking to a Nausican in the bar.

[Kittamaru]

Oh minus the FTL, G acceleration, firepower, durability, shielding, and overall tech advantage, how is not a curbstomp?

lawl

Why yes, they accelerate .80c, way faster than what you see Federation ships going at. Actually, DS9 is all you need to see why Fed ships are slow, those shots during the Klingon/Fed battle would HORRENDOUSLY slow.

Uh, lol? .80c acceleration... so they accelerate at 80% the speed of light? That makes sense... or do you mean they MOVE 80% the speed of light.

The Ent-D can jump to Warp 9.8 in under a second at redline. In other words, an acceleration far, far in excess of .80c...

Even at Impulse, 80% the speed of light is a top limit for the total speed of a ship at sublight (read, impulse). Factor in warp drive and yeah, IoM Acceleration is nothing.

As for the DS9 quote - wtf are you smoking?

[Kittamaru]

I know, I was just quoting it because of how funny it was.



From what I've read at SB cruise speed for IoM ships is .75 C. Their on the insane acceleration end like the Irkens.

Fed starships can cruise .8c at impulse, remember In theory they could go faster, but time-dilation effects prevent them doing so without a fully formed warp field, at which point they may as well jsut go to warp1

[Kittamaru]

correction: Nobody realized the massive mistake i made. When we were discussing Uxbridge and what he did, and about Quark in DS9, i mixed up Nausicans and Husnok. THE HUSNOK are extinct. NOT the Nausicans. Quark was talking to a Nausican in the bar.

I was wonderingw hy you were talking about a bunch of extinct people talking to Quark... heh

[ricrery]

Uh, lol? .80c acceleration... so they accelerate at 80% the speed of light? That makes sense... or do you mean they MOVE 80% the speed of light.

They FIGHT at those speeds, but do we see Star Trek fighting at those speeds? Never, hell, the First Contact Borg Cube battle speeds were rather slow.

The Ent-D can jump to Warp 9.8 in under a second at redline. In other words, an acceleration far, far in excess of .80c...

Alright, read this.

Yea that sounds about right. Warp can be faster than SW hyperdrive & as slow as Trek warp--on some occasions. Generally it's somewhere in between. For ex in 'Angels of Darkness' it would've taken the Dark Angels' fortress 2 weeks to travel 1,000 ly. In "Farseer" a ship was stated to be able to travel ~50,000 ly in 6 months

Even the lower limit is exceedingly more than what most races in Star Trek capable of of, so FTL acceleration means nothing.

As for the DS9 quote - wtf are you smoking?

Stationary ships with slow turrets hit Star Trek ships, watch this

[Kittamaru]

They FIGHT at those speeds, but do we see Star Trek fighting at those speeds? Never, hell, the First Contact Borg Cube battle speeds were rather slow.

So all those battles we've seen fought at high Warp speeds don't count I guess?

Alright, read this.



Even the lower limit is exceedingly more than what most races in Star Trek capable of of, so FTL acceleration means nothing.

Doesn't matter - unlike HyperSpace an IoM Warp, Trek Warp is a viable COMBAT speed, from which they can still fight.

Stationary ships with slow turrets hit Star Trek ships, watch this

LAWL, those aren't turrets in the sense of IoM or SW turrets you fool... they don't need to be 100% on target to hit... yes, the torp launchers have to aim "in the general direction", but torpedoes are GUIDED weapons. PHASERS can fire off-angle, as we have seen THOUSANDS of times in HUNDREDS of episodes.

The only thing "turretlike" about those turrets is that they rotate to make them a little more on angle, and if you watch their rotation, it's hardly slow...

I mean, for FUCKS SAKE, each launcher is firing upon two, three, four, and even more ships at ONE TIME, even when targets were on opposite sides of the launcher. Hell, that one torp/phaser platform (the round one) was spinning like a top launching torps and shooting phaser blasts all over the damn place. Far better than anything we've seen in SW in terms of firepower-on-target.

Plus, the hand to hand combat shows the capability of Federation officers - Klingons THRIVE on hand to hand combat... yet these Feds beat the piss out of em

[ricrery]

So all those battles we've seen fought at high Warp speeds don't count I guess?

That's the FTL travel, so it doesn't count, and even so the Federation can't have battles with it.

Doesn't matter - unlike HyperSpace an IoM Warp, Trek Warp is a viable COMBAT speed, from which they can still fight.

Ha.

I mean, for FUCKS SAKE, each launcher is firing upon two, three, four, and even more ships at ONE TIME, even when targets were on opposite sides of the launcher. Hell, that one torp/phaser platform (the round one) was spinning like a top launching torps and shooting phaser blasts all over the damn place. Far better than anything we've seen in SW in terms of firepower-on-target.

Yet it misses a lot of times and only hits targets going at "their super fast speeds". Plus, those Klingon warriors are terrible, which is why a Cadian 6 year old could beat one.

[Apocalypse2001]

They FIGHT at those speeds, but do we see Star Trek fighting at those speeds? Never, hell, the First Contact Borg Cube battle speeds were rather slow.

For the Nth time you are wrong again. Yes we do see them. And why do battles have to fast???? This isn't martial arts, this is space.

Even the lower limit is exceedingly more than what most races in Star Trek capable of of, so FTL acceleration means nothing.

More reification, as usual. You haven't watched enough Star Trek to make conclusions like that.

Stationary ships with slow turrets hit Star Trek ships, watch this

You're smoking glue as usual. That is a STATION, not stationary ships. And the turrets aren't lasers, they have photon torpedoes that are actually AIMED.
You lose. Want more embarrassment? Look at the Dominion attack during the last season. Or the attacks against the Cardassian turrets. Or...well you get the picture. As much as I'd love to rip you to pieces at the moment, I wouldn't want to embarass you further. You've done that yourself.

...

[Kittamaru]

That's the FTL travel, so it doesn't count, and even so the Federation can't have battles with it.

They can't? Really?

Despite the fact that it's been done on screen a hundred times?

Ha.

Nobody's laughing with you...

Yet it misses a lot of times and only hits targets going at "their super fast speeds". Plus, those Klingon warriors are terrible, which is why a Cadian 6 year old could beat one.

*laughs* You are inept and an idiot... and I now have people on other boards (including Space Battles) laughing at you... this is hilarious. You're so incompetent you don't even realize it!

[ricrery]

They can't? Really?

Nope.

Despite the fact that it's been done on screen a hundred times?

What the fuck are you smoking? I said they can't have battles with it, which implies Imperium.

Nobody's laughing with you...

I wasn't asking.

*laughs* You are inept and an idiot...

Are you talking about yourself? You can't even figure out how to use a FORUM, idiot.

and I now have people on other boards (including Space Battles) laughing at you...

Despite Lucas saying you had to read the EU in order to find out where anakin's scar came from despite it being in the movies. Lucas says i don't know ask howard(president of lucas licencing)--that is only part of the quote that proves kitta is a complete fuckwad.

Like I said talking to those guys is like talking to a fucking wall, nothing good will ever come from it(consider their site is full of ireedemable trektard/trektrolls/borgwankers that it's not worth taking them seriously.

A bumch of the smarter SDN'ers proved saquist is full of shit, and you should ask perion about kittamaru, you'll see why.

Complete and utter retard kittamaru once accused me of beig TW . It was actually the first comment on my channel.

Most people who have debated saquist agree that he is a complete idiot who thinks he's smart even though he got dickslapped by some of the debaters on SDN.

It's the other way around. Plus, if I told them that you said the Federation stands a chance against the Imperium, they'd be laughing at you SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD. Why don't you tell me their names? Plus, you broke a rule on SB.com.

You're so incompetent you don't even realize it!

*shrugs* I never said the Feds would win, but I don't think it'd be the curbstomp people make it out to be.

You are an IDIOT, you know that? Plus, people actually agree with me, and if you so much as argued on SB, then you'd get worse flamage than deathmarine.

But still, you'll still hear Trekkers argue that a Federation ship can withstand Imperium ships because they use lasers.

And missiles. And slugs. And other such kinetic kill vehicles, and plasma based weaponry, and a whole host of other shit, even if we were willing to give their their logic rapidly stupid assumption that one off spoken line of dialogue translates into a no limits fallacy despite the fact that we've seen Picard refuse to take his ship into a hot combat zone featuring lasers (no other weapons stated to be firing) and the Borg themselves have damage the Enterprise with a laser weapon.

They can't be laughing at me, at all.

[Apocalypse2001]

nobody gives a shit about Anakin's scar. He was on missions, on which even a Jedi can get injured. Even a six year old with down-syndrome would understand that.