Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Okay... 1 centimeter is worth 1,000 km, and the moon was 6 centimeters in size... you do the math... either that, or concede all of the Fed's ships wouldn't shake a transport's shields.

Size = power now? Well, then, I guess you're all screwed if the Caretaker Array showed up... lol...

[Kittamaru]

1 centimeter on the table top by 40K game rules = X number of kilometers IRL.

Yeah, but where did the board game come into play? is it canon? What are WH40K's cannonocity rules?

He's not talking about that Gauss Cannon. A Necron Gauss Cannon IIRC is an energy weapon that rips matter apart.

Ah, see, so it's a misnomer... that explains a fair bit of the confusion.... but they is he saying the Borg couldn't adapt to Kinetic weapons and then using a Gauss Cannon as an example... 0o'

Who is this Saquist?

Saquist is a pro-trek debator that has done some pretty extensive research into it, going so far as to (I believe it was him) modify one of the PC Games with ST and SW ships and using mathmatic equations to derive power figures for them. I have no idea on his progress, though.

[ricrery]

Sources include First Contact, Q Who, Best of Both Worlds, Drone, Revulsion, and a handful of other episodes... taken directly from dialogue and/or inferred from on-screen evidence.

FC was the Defiant which was prepared to ram it, before they could transported onto the Enterprise, Q Who didn't involve ramming, neither did BoBW, haven't seen Drone nor Revulsion.

Sources and proof, please.

For which one? The first one is easy because the Imperium is protecting planets. The second is because one point in BFG means 300 teratons, whereas it takes the entire Enterprises Photon stock just to conjure up 6 gigatons, MUST I go on? Exclude THAT, and you still have obsolete 610 gigaton torpedoes that they can fire from 4 tubes, so it would take the Enterprise 102 times its stock just to match one torpedo, and they fire four per volley. xD.

I actually commented on that site, stating the same thing I said here- people are downplaying the Borg... they aren't as stupid as people make them out to be, especially if you take into account the "new" Borg - more aggressive, faster, sleeker, and they don't even care about Assimilating the Federation anymore.

Bad move there, they don't take kindly to people who state Trek opinions against Warhammer opinions... prepare to get flamed.

If the torpedo is that big, it would be rather easy to shoot down...

Shoot down this many? Ignoring that, how are they going to get past the petaton level shielding.

That's a little more reasonable then. Though I wonder how well their capital weapons would be able to track a small, nimble Trek ship...

They have fighters, and they accelerate at 100000-380000 Gs, that or .75 times the speed of light in battles, those ships are going DOWN.

Proof of Dyson Spheres in WH40K being the same as ST?

You look for yourself

Yes, but WH40K is also incredibly oversized and overpowered... I have no doubt WH40K would crush Trek, Wars, and a dozen other sci-fi's combined if they are allowed to work on THEIR "physics". Drop them into a more realistic physics set (like, say SW or ST) and their ships would implode, weapons would randomly detonate upon first attempt to fire, and Orks would find that painting their vehicles red doesn't actually make them go faster...

God dammit, I told you, they are no more powerful than EU SW (which you despise).

[ricrery]

Words of Blacksun2175

Saquist proved he was a complete idiot (before-during-afte the debate) and several other forums saw it and know it.

[ricrery]

By the way, link to where you commented.

[Kittamaru]

FC was the Defiant which was prepared to ram it, before they could transported onto the Enterprise, Q Who didn't involve ramming, neither did BoBW, haven't seen Drone nor Revulsion.

There's more than just ramming when involving KE...

For which one? The first one is easy because the Imperium is protecting planets. The second is because one point in BFG means 300 teratons, whereas it takes the entire Enterprises Photon stock just to conjure up 6 gigatons, MUST I go on? Exclude THAT, and you still have obsolete 610 gigaton torpedoes that they can fire from 4 tubes, so it would take the Enterprise 102 times its stock just to match one torpedo, and they fire four per volley. xD.

1) Proof and Source involves quoting a source or at least providing access to the source material.

2) Proof that photons can't produce 6 GT? Considering they are able to produce over 80 Isotons and blow up a small planet...

3) Again, proof of the supposed weakness of Photons...

Bad move there, they don't take kindly to people who state Trek opinions against Warhammer opinions... prepare to get flamed.

*shrugs* Flamers dont' bother me. I just feel pity for them.

Shoot down this many? Ignoring that, how are they going to get past the petaton level shielding.

Cosmic Castaway - Timestamp 25 seconds Watch the Ent-E fire off a rapid spread of phaser shots. Now, consider that they can continue doing so as long as needed... I mean, they don't have to be full power shots. And proof that the torps have shields at all? That video didn't show any... much less petaton level shielding.

They have fighters, and they accelerate at 100000-380000 Gs, that or .75 times the speed of light in battles, those ships are going DOWN.

Uh... did you really just say 380,000 G's? That would CRUSH the pilot... you realize that?

You look for yourself

Doesn't seem remotely like hte dyson sphere except for the fact it surrounds a star and converts energy from solar energy... the unique thing about the dyson sphere is the solid neutronium hull...

God dammit, I told you, they are no more powerful than EU SW (which you despise).

I despise EU SW bs... there are some good books and even a few good games, b ut so much of it is utter bullshit that it isn't funny... where it contradicts the movies, it doesn't apply. END OF FUCKING STORY. Lucas said it over and over - SW ended with the final movie. Thus, anything set AFTER that, doesn't matter. PERIOD.

Dont' like it? Tough shit.

[Kittamaru]

Words of Blacksun2175

I'm going to assume Blacksun was Wong's username somewhere? I recall seeing that quote in other places... and yet Blacksun had no proof to back it up at all...

[Kittamaru]

By the way, link to where you commented.

Huh?

[Sardonic Crisis]

Words of Blacksun2175

You provide a quote from this person but fail to show the proof he or she supposedly has shown. Please provide this proof.

[ProphetofWisdom]

Yeah, but where did the board game come into play? is it canon? What are WH40K's cannonocity rules?

I believe so, though I'm not familiar with 40K canon policy.

Ah, see, so it's a misnomer... that explains a fair bit of the confusion.... but they is he saying the Borg couldn't adapt to Kinetic weapons and then using a Gauss Cannon as an example... 0o'

Here's a link also to the Lexicanum wiki. "Overview" talks about Necron Gauss Cannons: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Necron

Saquist is a pro-trek debator that has done some pretty extensive research into it, going so far as to (I believe it was him) modify one of the PC Games with ST and SW ships and using mathmatic equations to derive power figures for them. I have no idea on his progress, though.

Interesting...

Uh... did you really just say 380,000 G's? That would CRUSH the pilot... you realize that?

Tell that to Zim and the jets deploy from his PAK that were calc at that going off of "Planet Jackers"... didn't do a thing to him!

[ricrery]

There's more than just ramming when involving KE...

I know, but where do we see it in any of your claims?

1) Proof and Source involves quoting a source or at least providing access to the source material.

No .pdf for the first one, but CLEARLY the Imperium is a DYING civilization, it holds what it has.

2) Proof that photons can't produce 6 GT? Considering they are able to produce over 80 Isotons and blow up a small planet...

Let me guess? NRF? I stated that a photon is in the megaton range while being omnidirectal and losing some of its power to space.

3) Again, proof of the supposed weakness of Photons...

An old book stated obsolete torpedoes produce 610 gigatons, and in ST, 42 gigatons is enough to destroy a small moon which is full of shit.

Watch the Ent-E fire off a rapid spread of phaser shots. Now, consider that they can continue doing so as long as needed... I mean, they don't have to be full power shots. And proof that the torps have shields at all? That video didn't show any... much less petaton level shielding.

Irrelevant, because it loses power, and the plasma warhead has the power to damage it while not hitting it directly because of the detonation. Add in the ship would lose power too much and have to stop...

Uh... did you really just say 380,000 G's? That would CRUSH the pilot... you realize that?

Um, no, that's the 6,300-10,000 meter behemoth of a ship's speed. So, it's so much bigger and so much faster... I can see it crushing the Enterprise just by accelerating, I have no idea how fast the fighters are though.

Doesn't seem remotely like hte dyson sphere except for the fact it surrounds a star and converts energy from solar energy... the unique thing about the dyson sphere is the solid neutronium hull...

Necrodermis probably has thick molecular bondage because of the weapons they use.

Dont' like it? Tough shit.

George himself used EU in the movies. Tough. Shit.

Huh?

Factpile, where did you comment?

[ricrery]

I'm going to assume Blacksun was Wong's username somewhere? I recall seeing that quote in other places... and yet Blacksun had no proof to back it up at all...

This guy.

[ricrery]

Yeah, but where did the board game come into play? is it canon? What are WH40K's cannonocity rules?

The Rulebook > Codex > Novel > everything else

Rulebook shows a 6 cm moon would be destroyed by a lance, that means 6,000 km have been destroyed.

[Kittamaru]

I know, but where do we see it in any of your claims?

Well, yeah... considering how those weapon systems worked...

No .pdf for the first one, but CLEARLY the Imperium is a DYING civilization, it holds what it has.

Not really sure what your point is with this

Let me guess? NRF? I stated that a photon is in the megaton range while being omnidirectal and losing some of its power to space.

Does it matter if it's DET or NRF if it gets the job done? And how does that prove anything... just because you state it doesn't make it so...

An old book stated obsolete torpedoes produce 610 gigatons, and in ST, 42 gigatons is enough to destroy a small moon which is full of shit.

Uhm... okay, two problems:

1) "An old book" is not a reference... do you know what MLA format is? Use it...

2) Who said 42 GT would destroy a small moon? They said 80 Isotons would destroy a small planet, but we dont' know what exactly isotons means...

Irrelevant, because it loses power, and the plasma warhead has the power to damage it while not hitting it directly because of the detonation. Add in the ship would lose power too much and have to stop...

Actually, it doesn't lose power - a Phaser array like that has hundreds, if not thousands, of emitters, and only two are required for a normal strength beam, though more can be used together to create more powerful strikes.

And why would the ship lose power and have to stop? Where are you getting these from...

Um, no, that's the 6,300-10,000 meter behemoth of a ship's speed. So, it's so much bigger and so much faster... I can see it crushing the Enterprise just by accelerating, I have no idea how fast the fighters are though.

What... in the world does any of this have to do with anything? And how would accelerating crush a ship... really now

Necrodermis probably has thick molecular bondage because of the weapons they use.

Pure, unsupported speculation at best, but even so, this would make it WEAKER against phasers effect...

George himself used EU in the movies. Tough. Shit.

Fact - he made reference to some EU in the movies. Nothing more, nothing less... he NEVER ONCE used anything to suggest such insane power levels

Factpile, where did you comment?

On the Borg vs Necron thread...

Wow... just... these "arguments" are hardly more than unsupported, unsubstantiated claims made out of desperation

[Kittamaru]

This guy.

Uhm.. okay... still not sure how he's relevant to anything here.

[Kittamaru]

The Rulebook > Codex > Novel > everything else

Rulebook shows a 6 cm moon would be destroyed by a lance, that means 6,000 km have been destroyed.

Okay, so what is a lance? The Lexicanum mentions an Armagedon Gun on one ship... but states nothign about them burning thru a planet...

And reading up on their other weapons further reinforces what I said - a 200m torpedo is hard for most ship weapons (short of defense turrets and fighters) to hit? Then a 600m starship going .8c is going to be nigh-impossible to hit...

[ricrery]

Well, yeah... considering how those weapon systems worked...

Name one weapon similar to what the Imperium uses.

Not really sure what your point is with this

Why would they fight on a planet they don't own? They would sterilize it.

Does it matter if it's DET or NRF if it gets the job done? And how does that prove anything... just because you state it doesn't make it so...

Well, considering NRF is probably useless against shielded targets or ships as a whole, what will they do?

1) "An old book" is not a reference... do you know what MLA format is? Use it...

How is it not a reference? Read this out of date statement

"Space Hulk rulebook, Scenario book (board game)-pg.3
================
Four Gothic-class cruisers–Intolerable, Invincible, and Righteous Force–awaited four parsecs from target. Each ship carried 100 Hellfire nuclear missles. Each missle 122 warheads, each with a firepower of 5 GT. If boarding action fails, nuclear missles will turn a ship to dust."

and in truth, one point is worth 300 teratons, and these torpedoes are plasma reactor warheads, not nuclear...

2) Who said 42 GT would destroy a small moon? They said 80 Isotons would destroy a small planet, but we dont' know what exactly isotons means...

The Dreadnought missile studio model was designed by Rick Sternbach.

The 2,000 kilogram main warhead of the missile (1,000 kilograms each of matter and antimatter) in reality would have an explosive yield of 42.96 gigatons. This would be roughly equal to 4.3 times the entire combined nuclear arsenals of "Cold War" Earth.

Calculator and benchmarks courtesy of http://edwardmuller.com/right17.htm

The Cardassian Dreadnought

Actually, it doesn't lose power - a Phaser array like that has hundreds, if not thousands, of emitters, and only two are required for a normal strength beam, though more can be used together to create more powerful strikes.

ST ships run on energy, fact. When they lose too much energy, they have to stop what they're doing, fact. Even without it, there are lances, weapons batteries, and the almighty Nova Cannon which can take phaser shots and hit the Enterprise.

And why would the ship lose power and have to stop? Where are you getting these from...

Q Who.

What... in the world does any of this have to do with anything? And how would accelerating crush a ship... really now

I said those massive warships move at .75-.90c, and if the Enterprise wasn't fast enough, it would be like a fly hitting a car and getting scraped off.

Pure, unsupported speculation at best, but even so, this would make it WEAKER against phasers effect...

First they have get past shielding which takes flotillas of battleships to do.

On the Borg vs Necron thread...

Don't see it.

Okay, so what is a lance? The Lexicanum mentions an Armagedon Gun on one ship... but states nothign about them burning thru a planet...

A magical LASER (yeah, that thing Trekkers view as useless) that the Retribution only has 3 of.

[Sardonic Crisis]

Can we please stop with the WH40k argument. It's not on the poll, so stop using it. Make a different thread and stop filling this one with off-topic posts.

[ricrery]

I requested it on the second one, but that one is no longer existent...

[Sardonic Crisis]

I requested it on the second one, but that one is no longer existent...

I'm guessing the second one was merged due to it changing the nature of the original.... I don't know...

This one has its contenders and Pollux hasn't added any others.