Star Wars vs Star Trek

[ProphetofWisdom]

SuperLasers - Impossible

And why would it be impossible? It is just an oversized plasma beam contained by mag fields.

Neutronium - Doesn't Exist

... So what are Neutron stars made out of now?

And this bad boy can kill all of Star Wars on it's own... no planet, shield, or ship is able to withstand it's anti-proton beam and energy dampening field.

Fire all the turbolasers and superlasers you want at it... all you'll do is make it come after you

IIRC the shields of the Ent withstand an attack by the anti-proton beam?

Last part of your post falls under "no limits fallacy".

*Sets back on The Massive and watchs as the Irken Empire smacks down every other universe in the poll with ease and gains new tech*

[Kittamaru]

Kittamaru, you know jack shit about debating. First you think Borg can adapt to projectiles and kinetic weapons, next you think phasers will harm W40k ships (needs a TRUE fanboy to even suggest that). Necrons assrape Borg into the next 60 million years SOOOO hard, it's not funny. Future Feds are low baryonic compared to Xeelee, and Doctor Who.

1) Provide evidence that the borg cannot adapt to projectiles and kinetic weapons.

2) Provide evidence phasers wouldn't break down the molecular bonds of WH40K ships just like it does to every other material

3) Provide even a shred of evidence that a single assimilated Necron won't result in some crazy ass Borg/Necron hybrid that then goes on to destroy the universe

Finally, bullshit on low baryonic. That just makes me laugh. Hah! See, I laughed.

[Kittamaru]

And why would it be impossible? It is just an oversized plasma beam contained by mag fields.

Yeah, b ut such a beam would actually punch a hole through the planet, not make it pop

... So what are Neutron stars made out of now?

I meant the way Star Wars portrayed it (the fact that Han Solo could pick up a pile of it and crush it to powder)

IIRC the shields of the Ent withstand an attack by the anti-proton beam?

Actually, he Enterprise was saved by the Constitution (scotty and kirk created a diversion - first time they encountered it, the Big-E was all but shut down by the DD's dampening field)

Last part of your post falls under "no limits fallacy".

*Sets back on The Massive and watchs as the Irken Empire smacks down every other universe in the poll with ease and gains new tech*

meep

[Kittamaru]

I wonder how the Irkens would react to a Thalaron Pulse... I mean, it does simply bypass the shields and armor of a ship to affect the crew within... so... I dunno. I think even the Massive would be boned if a Thalaron Weapon were deployed against it

[Apocalypse2001]

.........

Finally, Paramount is giving the new Dune adaptation 20 or so million more dollars than it did for the recent Star Trek. There is talk that Morel wants to do it in 3D. I'm excited...

they already made a mini-series. Which covered much. (Two, if you count Children of Dune. I wonder what they are going to use as a plot for the film.....) So there wouldn't be much of a point to make a film; unless it's set in some far future.

[Apocalypse2001]

I wonder how the Irkens would react to a Thalaron Pulse... I mean, it does simply bypass the shields and armor of a ship to affect the crew within... so... I dunno. I think even the Massive would be boned if a Thalaron Weapon were deployed against it

everyone would die lol. A fleet of Scimitars is all it will take.

[Sardonic Crisis]

they already made a mini-series. Which covered much. (Two, if you count Children of Dune. I wonder what they are going to use as a plot for the film.....) So there wouldn't be much of a point to make a film; unless it's set in some far future.

They are making a new adaptation of the original novel. Dune Movie.

The Lynch version was crap (weirding modules? ), but he did get the atmosphere right. The mini-series was "true" to the book but was a bad adaptation (fx were horrible just like lynch's, plus it failed to get the depth of the story). I think Paramount wants to see if they can finally get it right this time. Although, Dune might be one of those books that defy adaptation into film.

When Berg was going to direct this new one, his writer had a script of over 200 pages. I think the conversion is about a page a minute... Berg dropped out because he was too intimidated. Then Morel came and threw out Berg's script... I don't know if they can condense it....

[scimitar83]

Star Trek wins for these reasons (and I like both, I don't really have a preference):

Yes, the empire and Luke have the Force in SW, But, since Q is interested in what happens in the ST universe and would like to keep them around just to mess with them if nothing more, he would see The Emporer and Darth Vader as threats and since Q has alot more power, Q would eliminate the with one snap of a finger.

Death Star that can destroy a whole planet. Yeah, the Empire can blow up a planet, but the weapon they use is waaaaaaay oversizedfor the job; case in point: The Scimitar from ST Nemesis. Big ship, not nearly as big as the Death Star, but can acheive the same thing using it's Thalaron Weapon (I know this is not canon ST, but in the book Captain's Blood, the characters seem to think the Thalaron Weapon can penetrate shields even though they don't say it can. Also, Earth in ST DOES have planetary shield and defense systems(see ST: The Motion Picture), but watching Nemesis, the way Picard and crew, and Shinzon talk, that wouldn't matter. I know, Scimitar is cloaked and there is no way of detecting the cloak, but since Enterprise contacted the fleet before heading back towards the Neutral Zone, Earth would have already had their defenses up when the Scimitar arrived, even if they were not able to detect it). I know that Darth Vader and The Emperor ould have known something cloaked was out there, but like Counselor Troi before she was violated by the Viceroy and figured out she could use him to find the Scimitar, Vader and the Emperor would have no idea of exactly where Scimitar was, and also would have no idea of even what they were facing, seeing as Scimitar most likely is of a complete alien design to them and isfrom another galaxy.Ituld sneak up behind them cloaked, deploy the Thalaron Weapon and wipe out everyone on Board the Death Star before they could even react. Also, you need to take into consideration the Doomsday Machine which had an Anti-Proton beam that destroyed entire planets with one shot to use as fuel. It couldn't take out Kirk's enterprise with one shot. It took several to bring down the sheilds, and those were old technology. Granted the Death Star could bring down the Enterprise E's shields, but it would take more than one shot, especially since I think the Anti=Proton beam is more powerful than a superlaser. Also, even though Kirk destroyed The Doomsday Machine flying a starship into it and detonation it's impulse engines, the Empire wouldhave no idea that is how you defeat it since of course they have none of Starfleet's records of Kirk's missions that explain how to defeat it. They would eventually figure it out, but not before a considerable portion of their fleet were wiped out along with whatever planets they were near. As far as the Death Star firing the Superlaser into the maw, forget it. It would just bounce around inside. Can't attck from outside either as the Hull of the Doomsday Machine is/was solid Duetronium from a collapsed star. In other words, it's hull was indestructable. And since it's a machine, there is no crew to kill. The only other way I see the Empire taking it down is if Vader or the Emporer can use the force to control the mechanism themselves, and if they did that, they would just use it to their advantage rather than destroying it. Also consider V'ger, as was posted in a previous post, plus nomad, the huge cell that saps energy form ships as well as living beings, the vaporous creature that sucks humanblood (vader and the Emporer might not be affected by this).

Romulans, Klingons, Starfleet, whoever is left from the Dominion war vs. Empire and REbel ships. The empire Tie fighters and Rebels X-wings would have the larger Alliance ships outnumber and they could attack in swarms and do some serious damage if correct decisions were not made on the Alliance ships. Other wise the Allaince ships would win just because they can fight in warp speed, while no one in the Empire can fight in hyperspace. By the way, for both hyperspace and warp speed to be reached, you must go faster than the speed of light, which means that you jump into both at C. Depending on calibration(it makes a difference between the new Trek Ships and TOS and older, even though the calibrations for warp speeds sound the same, the new ships are actually alot faster than even the rebuilt origianl ships of the Original cast movies), the Millenium Falcon can do .5 above light or warp speed, which is supposidly one of the fastest if not the fastest hyperspeed ships in SW. Federation and other ST ships can do warp nine and faster, some can do transwarp, like the Borg Cube. If the calibrations are even similar, nothing in SW can even keep up with the slowest alliance battlecruiser/spaceship. The Borg cube would have all the advantages over the Death Star listed in previous posts, but that is eliminated if Vader and the Emperor are on board and use the Force against the Borg. Same for the Scimitar, except they'd have alot more trouble finding it unless were telepaths were aboard Scimitar, like in Nemesis.

Finally, Starfleet, Romulan, and even Klingon crews seem alot more intelligent than the Empire's crews are. Check both franchises and see which crews make more and dumber mistakes, both in design and also command of the vessels(including the Death Star). Kirk would find a way to defeat even the Force, as he has been up against beings with even more powers than that and prevailed.

If starfleet,Romulus, Klingons all allowed idiots to command their attack forces, then all bets are off and the Empire wins due to sheer numbers.

P.S. sorry about the spelling mistakes. This thing deletes letters when you are typing, not deleting, and I didn't want to delete whole sentemces and forget what i was trying to say.

[scimitar83]

Also, wanted to mention that if the Scimitar somehow ended up in the SW galaxy w/o Shinzon or any telepaths like the Remans, but with a starfleet comander and crew instead (stolen from the Romulans/SHinzon/Remans perhaps?) and they chose to help the rebellion, that alone along with all the ships the rebellion has plus Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, would tip the balance in favor of the REbels. And don't think that the rebels would not study the ship and figure out how to duplicate it. In that case, the Empire could build all the Death Stars they wanted and all that would do is basically turn it into a war of who could destroy more planets. With it's cloaking advantages, the Scimitar class vessels could go to all the important worlds of the Empire undetected and destroy all the Biomas on them, then take all the weaponry and weaponry being developed to make all their ships, including the Scimiatr class that much more formidable(Imagine a scimitar class vessel cloaked with a Thalaron weopon and a miniaturized version of the superlaser that could still destroy a planet with one shot. Tha't just about unbeatable.

[scimitar83]

Also, don't let skywalker(Luke) or any Jedi near the Scimitar class vessels, as that would make it easier for VAder and the Emporer to find them cloaked.

[Sardonic Crisis]

Star Trek wins for these reasons (and I like both, I don't really have a preference):

Yes, the empire and Luke have the Force in SW, But, since Q is interested in what happens in the ST universe and would like to keep them around just to mess with them if nothing more, he would see The Emporer and Darth Vader as threats and since Q has alot more power, Q would eliminate the with one snap of a finger.

If Q is so powerful, why is he scared of Guinan? It seems that Guinan possesses some form of temporal powers (she was immune to the temporal change in yesterdays enterprise). Would it follow that the line of Siona would also gain such protection as they are protected from prescience? Or would the Kwisatz Haderach be a being similar to Guinan? The point is that there are limitations to Q's abilities.

[ricrery]

1) Provide evidence that the borg cannot adapt to projectiles and kinetic weapons.

We never see them adapting to anything but PHASERS and PHOTONS. You know these aren't kinetics?

2) Provide evidence phasers wouldn't break down the molecular bonds of WH40K ships just like it does to every other material

Because Gauss can't do it, Gauss tech >>>>>> phaser tech.

3) Provide even a shred of evidence that a single assimilated Necron won't result in some crazy ass Borg/Necron hybrid that then goes on to destroy the universe

Read this. Oh, and this one quote made me lol.

This isn’t right. Where are the resident Borg wankers? It seems somehow..weird seeing a post with Borg mentioned, but not fanboys screaming:’the Borg ADAAAAPT!1!’ or ‘The Borg capture a necron in a forcefield, then dissect him, learn how he works, then duplicate the material, and after 3.4 hours all of the Borg have ADAAAPTEED!1!’, or some variation of the two phrases.

Remind you of someone? Necrons have fucked Borg so hard, it's not funny. Onto Tyranids...

[Kittamaru]

If Q is so powerful, why is he scared of Guinan? It seems that Guinan possesses some form of temporal powers (she was immune to the temporal change in yesterdays enterprise). Would it follow that the line of Siona would also gain such protection as they are protected from prescience? Or would the Kwisatz Haderach be a being similar to Guinan? The point is that there are limitations to Q's abilities.

Guinnan has a strange set of powers we dont' know about... however, he was only "afraid" of Guinnan while his own powers were stripped of him by the Collective. Otherwise, he considers her a menace to his "plans", nothing more, yet he won't get rid of her because of Picard's relationship with her.

[Kittamaru]

We never see them adapting to anything but PHASERS and PHOTONS. You know these aren't kinetics?

Anti-Matter Pulses, Deflector Feedback Pulses, Disruptors, and other races technology don't count as weapons I guess?

Because Gauss can't do it, Gauss tech >>>>>> phaser tech.

Oh really? So impact with a big, heavy, super-accelerated shell should break down molecular bonds even when a weapon designed with that exact purpose in mind shouldn't? I never knew... oh wait, I didn't know it because it's BUNK.

Read this. Oh, and this one quote made me lol.

To be honest, I only really saw a few things that bothered me:

1) No circulatory system - this isn't really a problem, as the Borg have assimilated non-living (read, Mechanical) targets before.

2) The necron totally rape physics in the books and game - if we bring them into the realm of even quasi-reality, things would be very different. However, the necron technology is so totally wanked out (I'm sorry, a weapon able to instantly punch a hole lengthwise through a 400 foot long, super-armored battleship would have SOME kind of recoil, even if it WERE completely energy based in nature) that at this point I don't see why there is any reason to even consider them in this debate... the same with most WH40K tech.

3) The c'tan have weapons that bypass normal space and time to avoid shields... can you say wtf? Granted, I still say the Borg COULD adapt over time, but they would suffer HEAVY losses

Remind you of someone? Necrons have fucked Borg so hard, it's not funny. Onto Tyranids...

the more I read up on WH40K, the more crazy it is... I mean, 100% inertia-free ships? The issues with that are so numerous it isn't even funny... not the least of which include the effect of null-G on the body (no gravity = no inertia and no inertia = no gravity... if their ships have ZERO inerta, then the things inside must also have no inertia as well (in order to have zero inertia) and thus must not be under the effect of gravity nor mass).

To be honest, the Imperium of Man and Space Marine tech isn't all that impressive... sure it's big and flashy... but it falls under the same catagory as Star Wars - Big = Better, and Bigger = Best. If something doesn't work, make it ten times bigger and try again. If THAT fails, blow it up. If you can't, shoot it some more till it DOES blow up.

Pretty... uh... petty... if I do say so myself.

[scimitar83]

Sardonic Crisis,

Q was afraid of Guinane because she knew things about everyone, probably even Q's weaknesess(he isn't God, just Godlike, and that's alot more powerful than any Jedi, Dark side or Good). Guinane, if you saw star trek generations, explains to picard at one point in the movie how she got this ability: it happened when she, soran and the other el-auriens fleeing from the borg were breifly trapped in the nexus before they wer rescued by enterprise-b and their ships were destroyed. The thing i did not like abt this explanation was that kirk was in the nexus longer than they were, and when picard showed up, he did not know who picard was or why he was there. He should ahve known who Picard was and that Picard needed his help to stop Soran from destroying Veridian 3's sun because Picard failed the first time. Also, both should know everything about everyone since they were in the nexus together but you see no eveidence of it as kirk dies at the end of generations, and picard does not show any of this knowledge even against the borg in first contact. He used knowledge from his time a locutus to defeat the cube, but he should have known everything about them including their homeworld since guinan did but this is never mentioned, in first contact or subsequent movies. He would have known ahead of time what shinzon had planned in nemesis and could have informed starfleet command so they could have upgraded enterprise e to at leats had a better chance against the scimitar.

[Kittamaru]

Here's the ultimate nail in the coffin for Star Wars:

Assuming we have all races acting as they normally do (eg, behaving normally)

We would have the following logical matchup:

Federation+Romulans+Klingons+Allies (remans, vulcans, hydrans, gorn, lyrans, ISC, breen, cardassian, etc) + Rebel Alliance

vs

Empire

vs

Borg

vs

8472

vs

'Vong

I forsee a joint Trek + Rebel Strike Team beaming to the Starforge, capturing it, and using it to mass produce superior vessels... imagine having X-Wings powered by micro-warp drives, capable of cloaking, firing Quantum Torpedoes, and packing Pulse Phasers. Imagine Peregrine fighters with Ion Cannons and Hyperspace abilities. Take a Sovereign class and mix the warp and hyperspace drives - hyperwarp!

Yes, I foresee the Empire getting its ass handed to it before it realizes it's been cut off...

[Kittamaru]

Sardonic Crisis,

Q was afraid of Guinane because she knew things about everyone, probably even Q's weaknesess(he isn't God, just Godlike, and that's alot more powerful than any Jedi, Dark side or Good). Guinane, if you saw star trek generations, explains to picard at one point in the movie how she got this ability: it happened when she, soran and the other el-auriens fleeing from the borg were breifly trapped in the nexus before they wer rescued by enterprise-b and their ships were destroyed. The thing i did not like abt this explanation was that kirk was in the nexus longer than they were, and when picard showed up, he did not know who picard was or why he was there. He should ahve known who Picard was and that Picard needed his help to stop Soran from destroying Veridian 3's sun because Picard failed the first time. Also, both should know everything about everyone since they were in the nexus together but you see no eveidence of it as kirk dies at the end of generations, and picard does not show any of this knowledge even against the borg in first contact. He used knowledge from his time a locutus to defeat the cube, but he should have known everything about them including their homeworld since guinan did but this is never mentioned, in first contact or subsequent movies. He would have known ahead of time what shinzon had planned in nemesis and could have informed starfleet command so they could have upgraded enterprise e to at leats had a better chance against the scimitar.

I think the reason for this is Guinnan's race is rather undocumented - we don't know what latent powers she has. If you notice, though, she always seems to crop up at just the right time, just when she is needed, and knows just the right thing to say... plus, she's how old? And has had what, 47 husbands? heh

[scimitar83]

ProphetofWisdom:
Kittamaru is wrong in that neutronium does exist, it is part of a neutron star, and he even states that the hull of the Palnet killer is solid neutronium from a neutron star. I tend to agree that SW version of neutronium w Han Solo breaking a peice w his hand is wrong, and that the Planet Killer's solid neutronium hull is right. Unless the empire or the rebels or whomever had to take on this thing somehow figured out how kirk destroyed it and did that same thing(which would be hard because as I said earlier, of course the SW universe would have no access to TOS enterprise 1701 records)the planet killer would lay waste to even the Death Star, the turbo lasers and superlaser would have no effect on it since the shots would bounce around inside it(if they even got that close before the planet killer's tractor beam pulled them in, and it could because even death star 2 was no larger than a planet, which was supposedly what could fit in the maw of the planet killer, even though it did not look like it on the TV show. And of course, no weapon could penetrate the hull. They would have to find a way to introduce a bomb as least as powerful as the constellations impulse engines exploding inside of it to kill it. Since the planet killer pulls in ships to refeul as well,it would make sense to place that bomb in an automated ship instead of trying to go into it with a manned vessel, especially since the empire has no transporters and even with transporters, kirk barely got back on board the enterprise in time.

[scimitar83]

Kittamaru,
Star Trek Generations explains that both soran and guinan are very old. They outlive humans by a longshot. When we first see guinan and soran in the movie, it is on board enterprise b 70 years before the rest of the events of generations. Guinan's latent power and knowledge come from the fact that her echo is still in the nexus, as was expalined to picard when he met her there and tried to recruit her to help him stop soran. she said she could not becuase she was both in the nexus and on veridian 3 with the crash-landed enterprise d(although she does not tell picard it has crashed. That's another thing he should have known. At least he figured everything out when he saw the christmas ornaments doing a good imitation of veridian 3's sun going out). That is where her powers come from, not the fact that she is an el aurian. Vulcans and other races live alot longer than humans, too, so this aspect is not uncommon amoungst star trek races.

[scimitar83]

also, guinans temporal powers could come from the fact that the nexus itself was temporal, as they explained in Generations. That means if they had really wanted to revive kirk, his echo is still in the nexus and since he is dead in the "real" world, they could conceivably bring the echo back to the "real" world. Same with picard. but they never mention this.