Star Wars vs Star Trek

[ProphetofWisdom]

Behold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQs1w-njzh4

NOW THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL COOL. I for now rest my case on the Irkens beating this Heart of Goldfish or whatever- hell, just beam GIR over and he'll press buttons and other random things until it blows up. Irkens win yet again.

Eh, even if the rest of the Empire is turned into stuff, Zim and GIR will survive and go to the MOOSE Room at the End of the Universe and the all knowing and almighty MOOSE shall take care of everything.

@ricrery: I'll answer your post tomorrow.

[ricrery]

HAHA! The Xeelee are invincible, something you don't understand. A millimeter of their material can withstand a galaxy buster. That's just fact. Add in they and their ships are made of this... what chance do Irkens have? Their fancy PAKS are so pathetic it's not funny. The Xeelee can:
A. Destroy their galaxies
B. Trap their galaxies in cubes smaller than the eye can see
C. Destroy them with 3m guns that they can hide in trench coats and blow up everything the Irkens control
D. A LOT more

[Dywyddyr]

You provided a bullshit link. It almost transfered malicious software to my PC.
Ifyou can't check them, don't show them.
Don't do that again.

Wrong again: that's a legit pdf and I loaded and checked it before linking.
Don't blame me for your own poor house keeping on your PC.

[Sardonic Crisis]

I suppose it's time to revisit my argument for Dune... However, there are some things that need to be addressed:

1)The poll has been made absurd by adding the "other" option. As such, I will ignore the comedic sci-fi's that have been argued of late. Yes, it's entertaining for a couple of posts, but there is a certain point when it's done.

2)Where has logical argument gone? Is Kittamaru the last true debater on this continued thread? Please have some depth to your arguments... this is the only way this thread will continue to survive and be interesting.

Now, on to Dune:

Technologically speaking, it would seem that the Dune universe would be in a rock and a hard place. However, just because it seems anachronistic for a sci-fi doesn't mean that it is.

1. The Dune universe has the tech for near instantaneous travel via foldspace engines.

2. It has its share of weapons to destroy planetary bodies. (e.g., the obliterators that the Honored Matres brought with them or the stone-burners highlighted in Dune Messiah.)

3. A shield that protects against sublight weaponry yet becomes volatile when c weapons are applied (it might be sustained beam weaponry that causes the volatile reaction but that is just conjecture). The holtzman shield is the reason for the anachronistic setting.

4. A cloaking mechanism that leaves no energy trace (e.g., no-fields) and remains so even on standby where it only becomes visible to the naked eye.

5. Cloning and eugenics from the tleilaxu. Could you imagine an army of Leto II's fused with the sandtrout. He'd be the Tyrant in the other universes as well.


Dune has all the tech it needs to win out over the rest. It's not about the level of technology, but the way in which the technology is used. These are the true strengths of the Dune universe, and they aren't even tech based.

1. The Bene Gesserit Sisterhood; adept manipulators and schemers with a wealth of past experience in each Reverend Mother. They create religions to program a society towards a certain belief. Plus, their control over their biological systems that allows them to neutralize toxins among other things.

2. Mentats; human computers that provide a versatility that is very formidable. They can be used as tacticians, assassins, diplomats, etc.

3. Prescience... not merely seeing what will happen, but actually determining the path.

4. Weapon masters and hand to hand fighting techniques. Land battles would definitely be in Dune's favor.

5. Patience; Dune wouldn't need to fight a head to head battle with the other universes. Do you think they would care about the prime directive? They would plant seeds throughout the other universes and subvert them from the inside. Plans within plans within plans....


As to the ability to hold an empire together, it should be understood that an empire's reach is equivalent to the ability of the center to control the outlying borderlands. With instantaneous travel Leto's empire was multi-galactic and lasted thousands of years. This is a feat that seems lacking in the two major players on the board.

The last thing I want to point out is the use of the Bene Gesserit Voice. It should be understood that this isn't a mystical spell the witches use on other people but rather it is an inherent power structure within the semantics of language (non-verbal language included). Frank Herbert was rumored to have been a ghost writer for a linguist whose name escapes me; Herbert was keen on the linguistic movement of semantics and incorporated it into his novels. Voice is the masterful art of communication that manipulates these power structures to achieve a desired result.

These are all Dune needs in order to win. I will apply these to each of the contenders in subsequent posts, but I think sleep is more important at the moment...

[Apocalypse2001]

Wrong again: that's a legit pdf and I loaded and checked it before linking.
Don't blame me for your own poor house keeping on your PC.

my sources tell me other wise. And I said ALMOST. I checked the link remember?

[Apocalypse2001]

@ Sardonic Crisis: if it was near instantaneous they wouldn't take such an insanely long time to create the fold needed for travel.
And besides the tech in Dune is again just an excuse to write an allegory in a sci-fi setting. To read too much into it.

and about the Bene Gesserit Voice: I've found in my studies with some of my patients that certain sound frequencies create auto-responses in their brain, building temporary pathways, allowing them to do certain things for a short period of time. I say temporary because the patients I'm talking about were very sick. Itwas gruelling work, but I enjoyed making the discoveries. There's too much to post of course. But I just found the comparison interesting. I never thought about the BGV before

[Apocalypse2001]

Behold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQs1w-njzh4

NOW THAT IS WHAT YOU CALL COOL. I for now rest my case on the Irkens beating this Heart of Goldfish or whatever- hell, just beam GIR over and he'll press buttons and other random things until it blows up. Irkens win yet again.

Eh, even if the rest of the Empire is turned into stuff, Zim and GIR will survive and go to the MOOSE Room at the End of the Universe and the all knowing and almighty MOOSE shall take care of everything.

@ricrery: I'll answer your post tomorrow.

almighty moose :P LOL sounds like something from canada :P

yeah it was kind of funny, but very well put together. It would be even cooler if they used a RenderFarm. Like in this video which was CREATED by a student. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHD8Xf5Rnvo

of course as you'll read in the comments one part he couldn't complete as he needed to because of the very long period needed for rendering.

[Sardonic Crisis]

@ Sardonic Crisis: if it was near instantaneous they wouldn't take such an insanely long time to create the fold needed for travel.
And besides the tech in Dune is again just an excuse to write an allegory in a sci-fi setting. To read too much into it.

If you read Heretics and Chapterhouse, you'll find that the folding of space doesn't take very long. You are probably thinking about the heighliners the spacing guild has (which, by the way, an entire planet's population and equipment only take up a portion of the heighliner's payload capacity). The problem wasn't that it took a long time to travel but rather the time consumed loading and unloading people and cargo would have been enormous. The folding is quick once prescience has mapped the best trajectory.

I don't believe that the tech level was merely allegory. Herbert brought depth to the sci-fi genre by making tech secondary to character and plot. Before Dune came along, Sci-fi had the tendency of trying to come up with the most fantastic tech and ending up with characters that were hollow. (I'm not including The Foundation Trilogy in that criticism; I have a different problem with that one... it has depth... but it's dry.) However, be it allegory or another plot device, the tech is sufficient to win if used properly.

[ricrery]

@Sardonic Crisis

What about Doctor Who? They have hundreds of millions of solar system busters, one reusable galaxy buster, and multiverse buster. Add in perfect time travel and instantaneous travel across the universe and... Doctor Who just wins.

[Apocalypse2001]

If you read Heretics and Chapterhouse, you'll find that the folding of space doesn't take very long. You are probably thinking about the heighliners the spacing guild has (which, by the way, an entire planet's population and equipment only take up a portion of the heighliner's payload capacity). The problem wasn't that it took a long time to travel but rather the time consumed loading and unloading people and cargo would have been enormous. The folding is quick once prescience has mapped the best trajectory.

yes exactly. That's the one I had in mind.

I don't believe that the tech level was merely allegory. Herbert brought depth to the sci-fi genre by making tech secondary to character and plot. Before Dune came along, Sci-fi had the tendency of trying to come up with the most fantastic tech and ending up with characters that were hollow. (I'm not including The Foundation Trilogy in that criticism; I have a different problem with that one... it has depth... but it's dry.) However, be it allegory or another plot device, the tech is sufficient to win if used properly.

yes. Your second sentence (in Italic font) here is what I meant. The tech is just there to enhance the back drop but that's not the reason the story was created. It's not the drive behind the story. Which is what it is all about. The tech ideas being figurative, representing and conveying a meaning other than the literal. And the lesson being tought through symbolism. Like in Star Trek. *nod*

[Dywyddyr]

my sources tell me other wise. And I said ALMOST. I checked the link remember?

Your sources?
Why do you need sources if you checked the link?
It's a pdf document - I've even downloaded it and saved a copy on my hard drive.

[Apocalypse2001]

Your sources?
Why do you need sources if you checked the link?
It's a pdf document - I've even downloaded it and saved a copy on my hard drive.

yes. Do I hear an echo??
sources that ************** the address for exploitation and malicious, piggy-backed code .

Anyways, it's an exploited address.
you should have provided a direct link for a clean download.

[ricrery]

You know, after watching "Midnight" again from my DVD, I noticed how Doctor Who uses ludicrous aliens more than Star Trek.

[Dywyddyr]

Anyways, it's an exploited address.

Bull.

you should have provided a direct link for a clean download.

It IS a direct link - it opens the pdf.

[Apocalypse2001]

You know, after watching "Midnight" again from my DVD, I noticed how Doctor Who uses ludicrous aliens more than Star Trek.

You're worse than the KKK or gay bashers. Can you just STOP HATING ON STAR TREK!??!? Just ...for a little while?! is that too much to ask?!?!?!?!? Every God damn day, post after post just hate hate hate hate hate....

[Apocalypse2001]

Bull.

uh huh. whatever.

It IS a direct link - it opens the pdf.

i didn't say open now did I? I said doooooownload
download, open, download, open --- nope doesn't rhyme.

[Dywyddyr]

i didn't say open now did I? I said doooooownload
download, open, download, open --- nope doesn't rhyme.

Have you actually tried to right click on the link and DOWNLOAD the document?

[ricrery]

You're worse than the KKK or gay bashers. Can you just STOP HATING ON STAR TREK!??!? Just ...for a little while?! is that too much to ask?!?!?!?!? Every God damn day, post after post just hate hate hate hate hate....

How am I hating? Besides, the only impressive aliens I've seen were 2D beings in ST, I've seen the Vesh, Midnight Entity, flower thing, Beast, Ragnorak Gods, and etc.

[Apocalypse2001]

Have you actually tried to right click on the link and DOWNLOAD the document?

Not on my computer....
And I won't on my computer. Because last time I checked, the Challenger Learning Center of Maine didn't have secure servers.

[Apocalypse2001]

How am I hating? Besides, the only impressive aliens I've seen were 2D beings in ST, I've seen the Vesh, Midnight Entity, flower thing, Beast, Ragnorak Gods, and etc.

how??
I always seem to get those headaches around you, like the Chief of Control.

(it's Ragnarok ... )