Star Wars vs Star Trek

**ProphetofWisdom** · 03-15-10, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by ricrery

4 to 11 is not 1 to 14. Besides, it was on Factpile, a site corrupt but also accurate, and L-W himself states Star Wars beats Star Trek, and he is >>>>> fanboys

Is this direct at me or someone else? Also, I don't understand what you are getting at with "4 to 11 is not 1 to 14". Very confused I am.

Originally Posted by ricrery

As inaccurate Wikipedia is...

Some Trek fools make Borg out to be Type 3?

Its not to bad really, all it says is they are consider a type III even though rated at I. More likely the Borg fall under Type II.

**~~ricrery~~** · 03-15-10, 12:59 AM

I stated four votes of fifteen voted for the Federation, *cough*fanboys*cough*

A low Type II alright.

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by ricrery

Okay, so they wouldn't have noticed 400 gigawatts is far too small to hurt them, and they went along with it? Oh God, is that what you're trying to say?

It just happened... what were they supposed to do? Ignore it and go on as normal? They knew their shields fell... they did NOT know why. Why didn't matter. What DID matter was their protection just went *POOF*

Good job, considering in ESB, we see normal turbos destroying asteroids and vaporizing them, and they were hundreds of meters btw.

Hundreds of meters... you mean the asteroids smaller th an the Falcon? I didn't realize the Falcon was the size of an ISD

Wrong, they used the Enterprises phaser to cut through the sand. And it took a while, E.G. a dozen seconds.

When, time-stamp please so I can review. I know a few times they used shipboard phasers to drill, at their absolute MINIMUM output, so as not to cause geological and seismic disturbances.

Too bad it doesn't say Star Wars anywhere, you were too scared to click the link, but it states directly how much the lower and upper limit of continent destroying weapons, not the gigawatts of the Starship Enterprise. YOU LIED.

Now i'm REALLY confused... just what in Gods name are you babbling about!

You suggested the ST ships destroyed continents when they can't generate more than a terawatt except for Photon Torpedoes.

Problem - it HAS BEEN DONE. Hell, look at things like the Cardassian Dreadnaught Missile for a great example - it would remove the entire CRUST of a planet...

Yes they do, but they're rare and only the rich can afford them, plus, Star Wars ships can fly near a dwarf star without problems, and in G-Canon, the Executer has the power of a medium sized star so you're an idiot. Easily contradicted because in DS9, the Klingons are losing to NORMAL HUMAN FEMALES without weapons or strength, so, does that make Klingons weak?

What the hell? Star Trek ships can fly into a BLACK FUCKING HOLE and survive! ST: Voyager - Message In A Bottle I believe is the episode. THEY FLY INTO A BLACK HOLE, THEN BACK OUT! C'MON MAN!

DS9, we see Klingon Warships (BOP's and Vor'Chas) dogfighting so close to the surface of a STAR that they have SECONDS to avoid cornoal ejections that would otherwise engulf the ship!

So if someone shot a pellet gun and shook up a tank and the crew doesn't give a shit, does it make sense? Fail! And where is it contradicted?

What? My point was Worf seemed a little upset that such a seemingly low number took out the shields. Again, raw power means nothing in Star Trek. For all we know, the entity simply willed the shields to fail, or used a weapon at the perfect counter-frequency to disrupt the generators, or any other of a dozen possibilities. Simply saying 400 GW took out the shields is bollocks - 400 GW of WHAT? In WHAT form?

OH YOU CAN'T LISTEN, we'll be using teleporters and replicating anti-matter? FOOLISH FANBOY

Since WHEN did Star Wars have Transporters or Anti-Matter, or REPLICATORS for that matter?

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by ricrery

You are so ignorant.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Munif...ensive_systems

And your point is? Ooh, they can melt a moon made of ice... big deal. If you mean the power output of 2,07 × 10^23 Watts, sorry, but read it's source material: Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections, written by Saxton, Curtis John, Hans Jenssen, Richard Chasemore. I don't see mention of Lucas in there... and again, that's not High Canon, as per Lucas own statement. As such, that obscene number is moot, as it is contradicted time and again in the movies. Such power output from a "small" capital ship would make something like the Death Star pointless. Finally, hate to break it to ya, but Saxton is an ASTROPHYSICIST in the field of cosmology, not quantum mechanics or theoretical sciences.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Accla...ensive_systems

And again, the point is what? That you can show me links to a publicly-alterable site that posts math that has been refuted time and again... do the math yourself, you might learn something

YOU LEARN SOMETHING NEW! CLICK THE QUOTES.

Yawn, nothing new here, not even as far as wank is concerned.

Oh you're so ignorant, considering I only watch TNG reruns and will continue from there when I'm done and go on to DS9, but, seeing links I get for the Dominion, I'm not impressed with them nor am I impressed with Klingon CQC.

Mhm, so you confess to having watched only a small sliver of Trek, and not even all of that. NO wonder you know so little about it.

And just for the record, I never stated to hating Star Trek, but comparing a small Type 1 Civilization to a Type 3 Civilization is stupid. As is Trektards comparing the Federation of Planets or the Borg to the Xeelee.

And again, where are you getting this Type 1 Type 3 BS from? Are you seriously trying to let others do all the work for you?

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by ricrery

Okay, so it contradicts itself? Besides, Photons lose some of their power in space and they're omnidirectal, so more like 24 megatons tops (they did 48 megatons not 50). Not impressive. Thinking about it, C canon is continuity canon, not secondary canon or non-canon, so it technically is canon. So it's correct, but desperate people like Kittamaru will deny it.

Uhm, what makes you think they are omni-directional? They are configurable warheads... they can do proximity detonation (omni directional) or impact detonation (directed charge) or anything in between... and we've seen a single photon torpedo able to yield an effect on an entire star system with readily available materials used to modify it... without increasing it's size...

**ProphetofWisdom** · 03-15-10, 02:00 AM

Now i'm REALLY confused... just what in Gods name are you babbling about!

He is talking about one the links to the SDN forums where they talked about WH40K continent level firepower and it takes high Teratons to low Petatons.

Problem - it HAS BEEN DONE. Hell, look at things like the Cardassian Dreadnaught Missile for a great example - it would remove the entire CRUST of a planet...

That would be incorrect. The Cardassian Dreadnought Missile was around 40-50 Gigatons, nowhere near enough to remove the entire crust of a planet.

Originally Posted by Kittamaru

And again, where are you getting this Type 1 Type 3 BS from? Are you seriously trying to let others do all the work for you?

He gave the link to wikipedia with the scale. I don't know where he is getting the idea that anyone here or anywhere else has ever claimed the UFP or Borg could take on the Xeelee.

Originally Posted by Kittamaru

Uhm, what makes you think they are omni-directional? They are configurable warheads... they can do proximity detonation (omni directional) or impact detonation (directed charge) or anything in between... and we've seen a single photon torpedo able to yield an effect on an entire star system with readily available materials used to modify it... without increasing it's size...

1. I don't recall them being able to be directed, where did this happen?

2. Unless I am mistaken that Photon Torpdoe only scattered nano-probes over a large area, and that doens't really say anything about the yield.

Oh, and in did you see the link to the video with the Star Destroyer being vaporized by an HTL bolt? I believe that proves that SW has low GT firepower at least.

**~~ricrery~~** · 03-15-10, 02:14 AM

I already stated not to do that and respond in quotes E.G

what I said

*rinse and repeat*

It just happened... what were they supposed to do? Ignore it and go on as normal? They knew their shields fell... they did NOT know why. Why didn't matter. What DID matter was their protection just went *POOF*

So Worf couldn't state a "But how did that happen?" or "Strangely 400 gigawatts lowered our shields" and Data states it himself "the Warship is capable of firing us with far more powerful bursts", suggesting that was strong in ST.

Hundreds of meters... you mean the asteroids smaller th an the Falcon? I didn't realize the Falcon was the size of an ISD

Watch the ESB and you'll see Imperial Star Destroyers firing at asteroids and evaporating them instantly.

When, time-stamp please so I can review. I know a few times they used shipboard phasers to drill, at their absolute MINIMUM output, so as not to cause geological and seismic disturbances.

See how small the hole is and how long it takes

Good thing EU is canon.

Now i'm REALLY confused... just what in Gods name are you babbling about!

I'm talking about calculations stating continent destroying broadsides and continent sized fireballs come between 125 teratons to 125 petatons. Understand what that was? Next time, click a link you stubborn fool.

Problem - it HAS BEEN DONE. Hell, look at things like the Cardassian Dreadnaught Missile for a great example - it would remove the entire CRUST of a planet...

Really now?

The 2,000 kilogram main warhead of the missile (1,000 kilograms each of matter and antimatter) in reality would have an explosive yield of 42.96 gigatons. This would be roughly equal to 4.3 times the entire combined nuclear arsenals of "Cold War" Earth.

Calculator and benchmarks courtesy of http://edwardmuller.com/right17.htm

A 42.96 gigaton explosion would only be sufficient to destroy a planetoid at most a few thousand meters across, although the damage done to the surface of a larger planetoid renders this a moot point.

42.96 gigatons? Impressive for Star Trek, but CANON states 30 year old transport ships have 12 200 gigaton turbos and they can slag a planets surface in under an hour. Besides, the 125 teraton-125 petaton continent destroying requirements exceed Star Trek powers.

What the hell? Star Trek ships can fly into a BLACK FUCKING HOLE and survive! ST: Voyager - Message In A Bottle I believe is the episode. THEY FLY INTO A BLACK HOLE, THEN BACK OUT! C'MON MAN!

I never watched Voyager, so I assume it was a wormhole, a black hole would destroy the Voyager.

DS9, we see Klingon Warships (BOP's and Vor'Chas) dogfighting so close to the surface of a STAR that they have SECONDS to avoid cornoal ejections that would otherwise engulf the ship!

Dude, Star Wars ISDIIs have 1.4-1.8 exaton shielding! A star like ours only conjures 90 petatons, so the ISDII would absorb flying INTO a star for some time.

What? My point was Worf seemed a little upset that such a seemingly low number took out the shields. Again, raw power means nothing in Star Trek. For all we know, the entity simply willed the shields to fail, or used a weapon at the perfect counter-frequency to disrupt the generators, or any other of a dozen possibilities. Simply saying 400 GW took out the shields is bollocks - 400 GW of WHAT? In WHAT form?

Funny thing is Star Trek Galaxy Classes only have 12.75 exawatts worth of shielding, while Imperial Star destroyers have 1.4-1.8 exaton shielding, and that's far greater than a Galaxy Class.

Since WHEN did Star Wars have Transporters or Anti-Matter, or REPLICATORS for that matter?

They have Hypergates and Infinity Gates, and many other things. Anti-Matter no. But they can [url=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero]turn planets into lifeless rocks or orbitally bombard a planet. Replicators? Yes

In short, Star Wars pisses all over Star Trek, hell, Babylon 5 does too, and Halo, and many others.

**~~ricrery~~** · 03-15-10, 02:22 AM

And your point is? Ooh, they can melt a moon made of ice... big deal. If you mean the power output of 2,07 × 10^23 Watts, sorry, but read it's source material: Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections, written by Saxton, Curtis John, Hans Jenssen, Richard Chasemore. I don't see mention of Lucas in there... and again, that's not High Canon, as per Lucas own statement. As such, that obscene number is moot, as it is contradicted time and again in the movies. Such power output from a "small" capital ship would make something like the Death Star pointless. Finally, hate to break it to ya, but Saxton is an ASTROPHYSICIST in the field of cosmology, not quantum mechanics or theoretical sciences.

Ha, considering I already stated even if it wasn't G-Canon (which it is as it is a movie reference book), then it's still CONTINUITY canon, that's right, not non-canon, or secondary canon, but continuity canon.

And again, the point is what? That you can show me links to a publicly-alterable site that posts math that has been refuted time and again... do the math yourself, you might learn something

That was from the Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections, and therefor it is canon. Besides, Star Trek "super" yields are no more than mid range gigatons.

Mhm, so you confess to having watched only a small sliver of Trek, and not even all of that. NO wonder you know so little about it.

Mhm, you confess to admitting EU (canon) would tear Star Trek a new asshole big time, and try everything in your power to exclude it. NO wonder you're such a fanboy.

**~~ricrery~~** · 03-15-10, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by ProphetofWisdom

He is talking about one the links to the SDN forums where they talked about WH40K continent level firepower and it takes high Teratons to high Petatons.

Fixed it, and the Imperium of Man can't compete with EU (canon

) Galactic Empire for shit. While they far exceed them in one on one ship combat, they lose to industrial and technological advances. What chance does Star Trek have?

**~~ricrery~~** · 03-15-10, 02:31 AM

Going by the "low end" calcs, assuming 4 battleships and 2 salvos apiece, and going with the 1e9 megaton figure.. the firepower to achieve the above is at LEAST 125 TT per salvo per battleship. Note that aside from what I mentioend above, this is conservatibe because it excludes the fierpower added by other weaponry (weapons batteries, ordnance, and prow armaments included.)

Going by the "upper limit" I mentioned (evacuating the atmosphere) 125 Petatons per lance salvo per ship (going by similar assumptions)

This loses to Star Wars, so does that mean it loses to Star Trek?

And PoW, how many times do I have to tell you Xeelee and Daleks and Time Lords are more than a match for Irkens?

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by ricrery

I already stated not to do that and respond in quotes E.G

*rinse and repeat*

So Worf couldn't state a "But how did that happen?" or "Strangely 400 gigawatts lowered our shields" and Data states it himself "the Warship is capable of firing us with far more powerful bursts", suggesting that was strong in ST.

Well, he could do that - except he's trained not to do stupid stuff so... yeah

Watch the ESB and you'll see Imperial Star Destroyers firing at asteroids and evaporating them instantly.

Yes, asteroids determined to be no larger than 60 meters

See how small the hole is and how long it takes

Uh... they were digging and trying not to disrupt the local colony OR the underground system... obviously they were at very low power.

Good thing EU is canon.

I'm talking about calculations stating continent destroying broadsides and continent sized fireballs come between 125 teratons to 125 petatons. Understand what that was? Next time, click a link you stubborn fool.

1, I don't have time to search entire sites for crap - if you want to use a site, QUOTE it and state it in the quote.

And 2) What "continent size fireballs" are you talking about? Show me a picture please. Oh, yeah, you can't.

Really now?

Yes, really - read the first goddamned paragraph:

The Cardassian ATR-4107 was an automated Cardassian weapon capable of unleashing massive destruction. Although officially referred to as a missile, it could also be considered a completely autonomous warship in its own right. It was a warp-capable vessel carrying 1,000 kilograms of matter and 1,000 kilograms of antimatter – enough to destroy a small moon.

42.96 gigatons? Impressive for Star Trek, but CANON states 30 year old transport ships have 12 200 gigaton turbos and they can slag a planets surface in under an hour. Besides, the 125 teraton-125 petaton continent destroying requirements exceed Star Trek powers.

I dont' know why that statement is in there, as it is obviously flawed... unless of course that's all it takes to destroy a small moon. And again, prove your 200 GT turbolasers... you can't, where as I can prove them WRONG

I never watched Voyager, so I assume it was a wormhole, a black hole would destroy the Voyager.

Nope. It was a Black Hole. Complete with event horizon and everything

Dude, Star Wars ISDIIs have 1.4-1.8 exaton shielding! A star like ours only conjures 90 petatons, so the ISDII would absorb flying INTO a star for some time.

Says you... on-screen evidence suggests shielding capable of withstanding kiloton weapons... but you'd ignore the evidence so I'm not going to bother reposting it.

Funny thing is Star Trek Galaxy Classes only have 12.75 exawatts worth of shielding, while Imperial Star destroyers have 1.4-1.8 exaton shielding, and that's far greater than a Galaxy Class.

You can't directly compare *watts to *tons... you DO realize that right?

They have Hypergates and Infinity Gates, and many other things. Anti-Matter no. But they can [url=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero]turn planets into lifeless rocks or orbitally bombard a planet. Replicators? Yes

Dude, that's all EU and NEVER seen ONCE in high canon... what dont' you understand about that?

In short, Star Wars pisses all over Star Trek, hell, Babylon 5 does too, and Halo, and many others.

LOL is all I can say to that last statement

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by ricrery

Ha, considering I already stated even if it wasn't G-Canon (which it is as it is a movie reference book), then it's still CONTINUITY canon, that's right, not non-canon, or secondary canon, but continuity canon.

You are wrong - being a reference book does NOT make it G-Canon. And it's directly OVERRIDEN by the movies. For gods sake, give it up!

That was from the Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections, and therefor it is canon. Besides, Star Trek "super" yields are no more than mid range gigatons.

Again, wrong on both acounts.

Mhm, you confess to admitting EU (canon) would tear Star Trek a new asshole big time, and try everything in your power to exclude it. NO wonder you're such a fanboy.

Yes, EU WOULD tear Trek a new asshole. It ALSO does it to EVERY law of PHYSICS, not to mention every GRAIN of common sense a person has. If we honestly go by your power calculations, that means that a TIE FIGHTER should have the firepower to vaporize a small planet! THINK ABOUT IT!

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by ricrery

This loses to Star Wars, so does that mean it loses to Star Trek?

And PoW, how many times do I have to tell you Xeelee and Daleks and Time Lords are more than a match for Irkens?

You can tell him as many times as you please - you saying it doesnt' make it right.

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 04:16 AM

If you care to educate yourself:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWhi2.html

Read it... when mistakes are made, he adds them as footnotes to the page and corrects the mistakes. If you see mistakes, e-mail him and let him know. However, time and again, his math has proven correct and has held up, even in the face of people like TW Scott and Curtis Saxton who like to rant, scream, and cry that it isn't, yet cannot point out a SINGLE flaw in it.

For Example: Read this:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWokona.html

or this:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWICS.html

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 04:23 AM

In certain cases, though, we did see them fire. Take, for instance, Boba's several shots against Obi-Wan on the Kamino platform. In the canon novelization, we're told that these shots drained the energy packs of the weapon.

As you can see, there are impressive pyrotechnics, and Obi-Wan flew about three meters backwards (intentionally, according to the novel, though I doubt the harsh landing we see was perfectly intentional). This would be roughly consistent with a few kilograms of TNT, or around a dozen or two modern hand grenades (at .25kg TNT each). And yet, "... Slave I's cannon went silent, the energy pack depleted for the moment."

The discrepancy rests with the firepower figures given for that weapon in the ICS . . . 600 gigajoules, or 143 tons of TNT, per shot. In other words, Saxton claims that the numerous shots shown above depleted the energy packs of a weapon which is usually capable of firing much more powerful shots. Let's say, just for argument's sake, that the platform explosions were equivalent to 25 kilograms of TNT, and that it was one shot from the guns instead of several. That would mean that the energy packs were depleted by a shot over 5,700 times less powerful than a standard shot.

For a comparison, let's look at one of the nuclear tests conducted by the United States. In December of 1964, during the "Sulky" test, a small nuclear weapon of 0.092 kilotons yield (about 385 gigajoules) was placed 27.1 meters underground. When detonated beneath the granite, it managed to produce sufficient fracture damage at the surface to create a rare retarc, 24 meters wide. With a detonation closer to the surface, this would've been a 24 meter crater, given the "chimney" effect of underground detonations.

Note how, in the platform pictures above, there is no 24 meter blast area, nor anything close to it, even from all of the shots put together. Obi-Wan, standing right next to the explosions, was barely moved by comparison.

This one example shows how amazingly WRONG Curtis Saxton can be,,,

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 04:25 AM

Lucas FINAL WORD on Canon:

"TVGuide: Yet novelists have written "Star Wars" sequels using the same characters and extending their stories.

George Lucas: Oh, sure. They're done outside my little universe. "Star Wars" has had a lot of different lives that have been worked on by a lot of different people. It works without me."

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, November 2001 - TV Guide interview

“There are two worlds here,” explained Lucas. “There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe.”"

- George Lucas, Flannelled One, July 2002 - as reported on the Cinescape site, from Cinescape Magazine

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 04:26 AM

So, yeah, Ricery... I fully expect you to ignore this evidence, to even try to say it's false, fake, wrong, or otherwise inadmissible... and in doing so you would simply prove how juvenile your debating structure is. It will mature in time and with age (I hope) but for now, you are not ready to debate something of this nature... it's a simple human shortcoming.

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 04:27 AM

http://www.canonwars.com/SWCanon2.html#III-B-2-B

Many more quotes from Lucas himself saying that EU is a separate universe altogether...

**Kittamaru** · 03-15-10, 04:31 AM

As for your 400 gigawatts:

Along with the cannonball torpedo of Star Trek V, another common claim for weak Trek weapons involves referencing the Next Generation episode "The Survivors"[TNG3].

In the episode, a virtually omnipotent being had chosen to live among humans in the 24th Century, even marrying one. Now Kevin Uxbridge, he and his wife Rishon had moved to an isolated colony, and, unbeknownst to him, his fate was to become the only survivor of its destruction by a race known as the Husnock. Thousands of colonists, including his wife, perished. Normally a pacifistic being, the rage overcame him, and he destroyed all of the Husnock, everywhere, with only a thought.

When the Enterprise arrives in response to the Delta Rana colony's initial distress signal and begins snooping around, Uxbridge tries to force them away by producing an image of a Husnock warship which fires on the Enterprise:
Worf: "The vessel is firing jacketed streams of streams of positrons and anti-protons. Equivalent firepower: forty megawatts. Shields are holding."
[Vessel fires again]
Worf: "Again, forty megawatts. No damage."
Riker: "Well if that's the best they can do this should last about five minutes."

A second engagement occurs later in the episode:
Worf: "Shields are down. Captain, they hit us with four hundred gigawatts of particle energy!"
Picard: "Damage?"
Worf: "Superficial. But I am having trouble reassembling the shields."
[Vessel fires again]
Worf: "Shields down. There is thermal damage to the hull."
Data: "The warship is capable of striking us with far more powerful bursts."

Some unscrupulous debaters try to claim that this event shows a maximum shield strength of 400 gigawatts for the Galaxy Class. In other words, anything more than about .95 tons of TNT per second will overload the shields and bring them down. That's less than a photon grenade! In a more modern sense, if the Enterprise-D were in the lower atmosphere, the US Air Force would need only hit them with 9 or so 500-lb bombs within one second to bring down the shields. A MOAB bomb would do the job ten times over. But the claim is still made, despite the fact that an unshielded Constitution Class from a century prior was unconcerned with conventional munitions aboard a 20th Century interceptor . . . it was only the thought of nuclear missiles having the capacity to "do some damage" that was a concern ("Tomorrow is Yesterday"[TOS1]).

**Shogun** · 03-15-10, 09:42 AM

I hate to mention it but Michio Kaku also said the Borg is a type 3. Its also funny how the movies contradict with the novelization saying it depleted its energy packs, while in the dogfight they clearly fired a lot more shots then that. Anyways, they might of used low power for anti-personnel purposes, because the Kaminoans won't like their landing pad get blown to pieces ( or Obi-Wan, because the Jedi Council is their top customer ), Jango obviously didn't make the fight noticeable since the Kaminoans ignored it completely as if it never happened ( or they gone suddenly blind and deaf ). Jango obviously doesn't want clone troopers to come in and get involved in the fight. Its funny how the fireballs are bigger in the dogfight ( perhaps the ground also absorbed some of the energy? ). Its amazing how Jango's little bombs are slightly larger than hand-grenades and they are never used ever again.