View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #17281
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    However I am INCLUDING visuuals of Photons striking a planet or asteroid. There are many incidences of full strength torpedo strikes on a planet that would be considered sub twenty kilotons. We see torpedoes crash through bulkheads rather than explode and take out the vessel in question.
    Would you care to show these visuals?

    As for Turbolaser we have NEVER seen a heavy Turbolaser used on a target that wasn't shielded and heavily armored. Also case in point for the Turbolaser, it would be like a shaped charge, not a wide area explosion.
    What the fuck is it with people and shape charges? Shape charges doesn't mean that the energy magically goes bye bye. It means it's being directed in one area. So instead of seeing a normal nuke creating a massive mushroom cloud, you'd see more dirt and crap being torn out of the surface of the planet because the energy is being directed there. But that dirt still has to go somewhere.

    Directed charge doesn't suddenly mean no transfer of energy has to be shown.


    So sisnce they NEVER correct the meaning or terminology in Star Trek and even go so far as to use it as a measurement of weight one would suppose they were using the scinetific terminology. So yes I am being nice.
    Oh please. Being nice? You've ran like a dickless coward at every argument I've challenged you on. Even now you're not responding. Being nice? You're grasping for fucking straws, especially when we don't know how isoton is applied and even more funny how apparently a 25 isoton bomb is capable of leveling a city in seconds.

    But I guess, when you're as desperate to win as you are, anything goes, right?

  2. #17282
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    I believe these are called BLUFFS. Untill they are backed by visuals then it just isn;t so. In fact we have seen visuals that support the reverse. MANY powerful warships were firing on a single planet in the "The Die is cast." They did not ignite the atmosphere or incinerate the crust. In fact the suface is only levelled.

    you have to prove they can be done, and only viduals will do that.
    Bluffs? Why? There's absolutely no indication that they were in fact, bluffing. Why would they? It adds absolutly jack shit to their agenda. Why would Taim lie? Why would Garak lie to Worf, who is an expert in weapons--especially the Defiant's weapons. That'd be like telling someone whose worked and operated a tank for thirty years that it can suddenly peform 200 kiloton blasts with its main weapon and thinking that they'll believe you.

    Again, another sign of TW so desperate that he'll grasp at anything to win.



    EDIT: As a side note, you really shouldn't have done that Kitt. That webforum has harsh rules against posting threads like that.
    Last edited by Hellblade8; 01-13-10 at 06:57 PM.

  3. #17283
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:
    “ There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe. ”

    If we want to be literal - the ONLY canon is Lucas Canon, and thus the Movies. End of discussion.

  4. #17284
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellblade8 View Post
    Bluffs? Why? There's absolutely no indication that they were in fact, bluffing. Why would they? It adds absolutly jack shit to their agenda. Why would Taim lie? Why would Garak lie to Worf, who is an expert in weapons--especially the Defiant's weapons. That'd be like telling someone whose worked and operated a tank for thirty years that it can suddenly peform 200 kiloton blasts with its main weapon and thinking that they'll believe you.

    Again, another sign of TW so desperate that he'll grasp at anything to win.



    EDIT: As a side note, you really shouldn't have done that Kitt. That webforum has harsh rules against posting threads like that.
    Not sure what you mean - i already explained to those that responded - I was not looking for assistance for the Trek side, but rather new blood on the other sides - fighting the same, old arguments against TW Scotch has become highly boring.

  5. #17285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellblade8 View Post
    Would you care to show these visuals?
    Actually since you are one claiming it can be done show me the visuals of them doing it. I suppose i could show the visuals of them not, but it would be every single scene of every single episode.



    What the fuck is it with people and shape charges? Shape charges doesn't mean that the energy magically goes bye bye. It means it's being directed in one area. So instead of seeing a normal nuke creating a massive mushroom cloud, you'd see more dirt and crap being torn out of the surface of the planet because the energy is being directed there. But that dirt still has to go somewhere.

    Directed charge doesn't suddenly mean no transfer of energy has to be shown.
    However a directed charge appears MUCH different than a nice round explosion. Expecting the two to look anything like each other is sheer stupidity. Where as a a torpedo might cuase a hemispherical crater, a directed charge might cuase punctures many, many times deeper than the torpedo crater.

    There is alo the material to be questions. A superconductive material could easily make either delivery form not as effective


    Oh please. Being nice? You've ran like a dickless coward at every argument I've challenged you on. Even now you're not responding. Being nice? You're grasping for fucking straws, especially when we don't know how isoton is applied and even more funny how apparently a 25 isoton bomb is capable of leveling a city in seconds.
    You haven't given an argument yet that holds any water to begin with. NONE. In a war tyupe situation where both sides are sticking to established Canon including actions. Star Trek end up being outclassed in every aspect save tactical speed and tactical manuverability,

    As for a 25 isoton bomb leveling a city, show me where. Nowhere in all of Star Trek do they show that. In fact their are countless scenes where torpedoes are no more dangerous than modern artilery shells.

    Hell a 25 ton bomb could level some small cities , so you SOL.



    But I guess, when you're as desperate to win as you are, anything goes, right?
    Yes, I use the truth, analyitcal thinking, and common sense.

  6. #17286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:
    “ There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe. ”

    If we want to be literal - the ONLY canon is Lucas Canon, and thus the Movies. End of discussion.
    And later on he told people thatthe story of the Star Wars universe included the EU. Remember Lucas himself doesn;t decide Star Wars canon as he explained in an interview while shooting ROTS. He has people who deside what canon for the SW universe is. He just has last say when it comes to the movies. If he shows it in the movie, it is so, but that is as far as he meddles.

    However if you really wanted to be evil. "It isn't Star Trek until I say it is!" Gene Roddenberry. Which would mean anything post his death is non-canon if we were going ultra strict.


    However for this discussion as stated in the opening it's Star Wars the entire Expanded Universe versus Star Trek. Our very topic of discussion makes the EU part of this discussion.

  7. #17287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Not sure what you mean - i already explained to those that responded - I was not looking for assistance for the Trek side, but rather new blood on the other sides - fighting the same, old arguments against TW Scotch has become highly boring.
    I would think continually losing the argument would be boring for you.

  8. #17288
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Actually since you are one claiming it can be done show me the visuals of them doing it. I suppose i could show the visuals of them not, but it would be every single scene of every single episode.


    Another cop out... typical. Our claims are based on script and dialogue of high ranking, highly intelligent officers... thus, you have to disprove it.


    However a directed charge appears MUCH different than a nice round explosion. Expecting the two to look anything like each other is sheer stupidity. Where as a a torpedo might cuase a hemispherical crater, a directed charge might cuase punctures many, many times deeper than the torpedo crater.

    There is alo the material to be questions. A superconductive material could easily make either delivery form not as effective




    You haven't given an argument yet that holds any water to begin with. NONE. In a war tyupe situation where both sides are sticking to established Canon including actions. Star Trek end up being outclassed in every aspect save tactical speed and tactical manuverability,

    Rofl

    As for a 25 isoton bomb leveling a city, show me where. Nowhere in all of Star Trek do they show that. In fact their are countless scenes where torpedoes are no more dangerous than modern artilery shells.

    They don't HAVE to do it... the UFP isn't a military organization based on fear and an iron grip... the fact that they CAN is stated over and over (after all, they were able to obliterate much larger constructs than a city)

    Hell a 25 ton bomb could level some small cities , so you SOL.





    Yes, I use the (un)truth, analyitcal fallacies, and (lack of) common sense.
    TW Scott, the sad thing is, I showed some of your "arguments" to one of my professors today. The class I am taking is a Philosophy class called, simply, Logic. He laughed. Outright. Your arguments are on par with syndicated news columns in your average local newspaper.

  9. #17289
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    And later on he told people thatthe story of the Star Wars universe included the EU. Remember Lucas himself doesn;t decide Star Wars canon as he explained in an interview while shooting ROTS. He has people who deside what canon for the SW universe is. He just has last say when it comes to the movies. If he shows it in the movie, it is so, but that is as far as he meddles.

    However if you really wanted to be evil. "It isn't Star Trek until I say it is!" Gene Roddenberry. Which would mean anything post his death is non-canon if we were going ultra strict.


    However for this discussion as stated in the opening it's Star Wars the entire Expanded Universe versus Star Trek. Our very topic of discussion makes the EU part of this discussion.
    Not so - the discussion is all of Star Wars vs all of Star Trek, based on canon FACT. Not fanboy wank... and as much of the EU is contradicted over and over again, you are FUCKED. Now GET OVER YOURSELF

  10. #17290
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    I would think continually losing the argument would be boring for you.
    Actually, it would be quite stimulating as it would challenge me to find ways to improve my argument and/or improvise... however, as I have yet to have any logical threat to my arguments, I'm quite bored. Fallacies are not a threat.

  11. #17291
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Not sure what you mean - i already explained to those that responded - I was not looking for assistance for the Trek side, but rather new blood on the other sides - fighting the same, old arguments against TW Scotch has become highly boring.
    I wasn't accusing you of cheating, but you have to understand that is what they would think when you posted that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Actually since you are one claiming it can be done show me the visuals of them doing it.
    Wow, shifting burden of proof.

    Now post those scenes Scott.

    I suppose i could show the visuals of them not, but it would be every single scene of every single episode.
    And I notice you're dragging your feet on this. Go ahead Scott, start posting them. Let's see how long it takes me to shoot down every single one.


    However a directed charge appears MUCH different than a nice round explosion. Expecting the two to look anything like each other is sheer stupidity. Where as a a torpedo might cuase a hemispherical crater, a directed charge might cuase punctures many, many times deeper than the torpedo crater.
    A directed charge is still going to cause massive damage Scott. Why? Because matter is being tossed in all different directions. Even if the weapon is directed, the target is not. The weapon will not take its discharge and matter down into a hole with it.

    If you hit a ground with an energy weapon equal to a gigaton bomb, it is going to be noticable because the target (the ground) is going to have matter blasted in every direction.

    There is alo the material to be questions. A superconductive material could easily make either delivery form not as effective
    So what, is dirt in Star Wars made of neutronium too?

    You haven't given an argument yet that holds any water to begin with. NONE.
    Bullshit. I've ran your numbers down every single time and every single time you back down without any sort of response.

    In a war tyupe situation where both sides are sticking to established Canon including actions. Star Trek end up being outclassed in every aspect save tactical speed and tactical manuverability,
    Bull fucking shit. The bulk of the Empire is tied down to their fucking systems because it's fragile. It's even noted in Specter of the Past that only a small fraction of the Empire was actually fighting against the Rebels because they were so busy trying to keep their own empire from blowing up in their face (and yes, I'm paraphrasing). Their millions of ships are all held up in sectors. It was so bad that they couldn't even take out the Mon Calamari, who only had enough to take down a battle squadron--which is about 20 ships. Two Battle Fleets and a Bombardment Fleet would have meant the end of half the Rebellion ship yards.

    As for a 25 isoton bomb leveling a city, show me where. Nowhere in all of Star Trek do they show that. In fact their are countless scenes where torpedoes are no more dangerous than modern artilery shells.
    QUARREN: The ensuing conflict was brief but brutal. Two million Kyrians slaughtered within days. The warship Voyager continued on its way, leaving the Kyrian dynasty in ruins. The Vaskan leaders proceeded to occupy our lands, forcing my people into subservience. It took centuries for us to undo the damage that Captain Janeway had done, and the Kyrian struggle for equality is far from over. This simulation and this museum are a testament to that struggle. I hope you found your experience here worthwhile. If you'd like to learn more about Voyager and its role in the history of our planet I suggest you explore the rest of this exhibit. Thank you for your time. Please, feel free to test the simulators. I wouldn't touch that if I were you. One of the Voyager's torpedoes. Twenty five isoton yield. It could destroy an entire city within seconds. It's been inactive for centuries but you never know. I'm only teasing, but, please, be careful. If we damage any of these relics they can never be replaced. The history of our people should be respected.


    Hell a 25 ton bomb could level some small cities , so you SOL.
    Really? Then might you also explain how Damar expected to kill people in hundreds of kilomteres with 25 ton bombs.


    DAMAR: Personally, I think we'd be better off launching an orbital assault on Gowron's command centre. A full spread of photon torpedoes would take care of him, the Klingon High Command and everyone else within a few hundred kilometres.
    ODO: You should ask Dukat for some shore leave. I think you've been in space too long.
    DAMAR: Why? Because I'm willing to spill a little Klingon blood to get the job done?
    O'BRIEN: Shelling Ty'Gokor won't get the job done. You'd be lucky to launch one torpedo before they shot you down. Besides, even a dozen won't penetrate the shielding around the command centre.
    And guess what they had? Oh that's right, photon torpeodes. But let's look at O'Brien's bomb:

    GARAK: The ship beamed down a hundred and ten empty canisters. Mow the storage facility is beaming up a hundred and ten full ones.
    SISKO: Everything ready, Chief?
    O'BRIEN [OC]: I've got eighty three empty canisters standing by, and one not so empty.

    [Jem'Hadar cargo bay]

    O'BRIEN: Ninety isotons of enriched ultritium should take out the entire storage facility and everything else within eight hundred kilometres.
    He Scott, starting to see a pattern?


    Yes, I use the truth, analyitcal thinking, and common sense.
    Really? Because you're blowing smoke out your ass right now. I asked for pictures? You shifted burden of proof. You tried to deny high level weapons to UFP, claiming that a 25 ton bomb could also do the same job--I proved they had power that requires high level firepower.

    You're trying to take a word--similar to taking a Star Wars laser and refering to it as a laser because that's what they call it--and trying to pass it off as legit.



    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    I would think continually losing the argument would be boring for you.
    Dude, a seven year old has better arguments and larger balls than you. And you still haven't addressed my argument from before.

  12. #17292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Not so - the discussion is all of Star Wars vs all of Star Trek, based on canon FACT. Not fanboy wank... and as much of the EU is contradicted over and over again, you are FUCKED. Now GET OVER YOURSELF
    Excuse me, but I have used only canon material. I have used information that has not been contradicted. In all honesty the only material that has been contradicted at all in EU has been some character histories, so it's a rather moot point anyways.

    So kindly, would you refrain from you ad hominem attacks. If you are going to attack the argumentm then please do so in a scientific manner.

  13. #17293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellblade8 View Post
    Wow, shifting burden of proof.

    Now post those scenes Scott.
    Burden of proof is always on the one claiming it can be or was done. Since in this case all we have is dialog, with no clear technical or visual example, by a people who have exaggerated in the past you can see how this is not proof.

    Now if Data had said it, you might have something, but even then the context would need to be there as well



    And I notice you're dragging your feet on this. Go ahead Scott, start posting them. Let's see how long it takes me to shoot down every single one.
    What you're asking me to show screen shots of weapons fire NOT igniting an atmosphere or reducing a planet to cinder? You're asking for all of them? And you are telling me, that while you claim it can be done, you DON"T HAVE TO PROVE IT! Bull shit, burden of proof was on you from the beginning. You can't pass it off on me, it's not the way debate works.


    A directed charge is still going to cause massive damage Scott. Why? Because matter is being tossed in all different directions. Even if the weapon is directed, the target is not. The weapon will not take its discharge and matter down into a hole with it.
    Actually incorrect, a shaped charge is uasually designed to BURN/MELT it's way through a material. In the case of HEAT warheats for current Anti-Tank munitions, the explosion is channels in such a way as to be a short lived but insanely powerful cutting torch. The result is a hole melted through the material with the molten material acting as liquid shrapnel. The same effect would be given with any energy weapon if it can overpower the conductive properties for te material in question.


    If you hit a ground with an energy weapon equal to a gigaton bomb, it is going to be noticable because the target (the ground) is going to have matter blasted in every direction.
    True, to an extent. It's not going to look like a gigotn bomb went off, hell it will probably be less than a few hundred feet in diameter that suffers secondary damage.

    So what, is dirt in Star Wars made of neutronium too?
    We remember the we DO NOT SEE starship level weapons ever used on a planetary surface. In the books the few times you see ship level weapons used, acres of land were instantly turned to lava fields.


    Bullshit. I've ran your numbers down every single time and every single time you back down without any sort of response.
    You have provided no equations, no proofs, and have ignored canon material. If EU clamims a Heavy Turbolaser is 200 gigatons in a technical manual then it is 200 gigatons. There is no argument against it as we see nothing in the movies that we can use to disprove the EU.


    Bull fucking shit. The bulk of the Empire is tied down to their fucking systems because it's fragile. It's even noted in Specter of the Past that only a small fraction of the Empire was actually fighting against the Rebels because they were so busy trying to keep their own empire from blowing up in their face (and yes, I'm paraphrasing). Their millions of ships are all held up in sectors. It was so bad that they couldn't even take out the Mon Calamari, who only had enough to take down a battle squadron--which is about 20 ships. Two Battle Fleets and a Bombardment Fleet would have meant the end of half the Rebellion ship yards.
    First of all, the Empire was hadicapped by the fact that Palpatine had to appear as if he was blameless to the core worlds. The Rebellion took advantage of this and kept their manufacturing assets among the Core Worlds, as well as in Hut SPace, the Coporate Sector and a few areas that were deemed valueless. Also in the case of the Rebellion he was fighting his own people. He did need to maintain the appearance that the Rebels were just an iincovience. In an all out war against an outside opponent who can truly be framed for a truly vile act, he could easialy get the support of even the most rebellious systems.



    Really? Then might you also explain how Damar expected to kill people in hundreds of kilomteres with 25 ton bombs.
    It only takes 7 pounds over pressure to kill a person. Besides it sounded like he wanted to empty the magazines.


    And guess what they had? Oh that's right, photon torpeodes. But let's look at O'Brien's bomb:
    Yes, he wanted to use NINETY TONS of Ultitritum. Not a 90 isoton bomb, but ninety tons of a material known to warp space/time in the area. This explains why you don;t understand. You were thinking the bomb is the equivalent of 90 tons of TNT when he was obviously refering to 90 tons of a rare and powerful explosive.


    He Scott, starting to see a pattern?
    Yes, I am. And so are others now.

    Really? Because you're blowing smoke out your ass right now. I asked for pictures? You shifted burden of proof. You tried to deny high level weapons to UFP, claiming that a 25 ton bomb could also do the same job--I proved they had power that requires high level firepower.
    Excuse me, but you guys claims weapons fire could ignite atmosphere. And then claims that Isoton must equal an obscene amount of mega of gigtons. I even provided proof in the way of videos showing conventional 100ton and 429 ton explosion that are MUCH more impressive than any planetary strike seen in the shows.


    You're trying to take a word--similar to taking a Star Wars laser and refering to it as a laser because that's what they call it--and trying to pass it off as legit.
    Except in this case what the is shown in the show SUPPORTS my claim.




    Dude, a seven year old has better arguments and larger balls than you. And you still haven't addressed my argument from before.
    If you had a valid argument instead of ad hominems then perhaps I would answer.

  14. #17294
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Excuse me, but I have used only canon material. I have used information that has not been contradicted. In all honesty the only material that has been contradicted at all in EU has been some character histories, so it's a rather moot point anyways.

    So kindly, would you refrain from you ad hominem attacks. If you are going to attack the argumentm then please do so in a scientific manner.
    I only use ad hominem attacks because they are the only kind you seem to have any interest in responding to. When presented with data that blows your so called "arguments" out of the water, you run away.

    And you have yet to present ANY kind of argument... because to present a cogent argument you must have:

    A Thesis, Statement, or Opinion (what you are arguing)
    Premise(s) to back your argument up
    Proof that your premise(s) are accurate

    You have provided the first, but neither the second or third. You simply state that because it hasn't been shown to be untrue, it must be true... if arguments worked that way, then God help us all.

    In reality, you have to provide some solid basis of fact - you have yet to do that.

    On the other hand, we have shown you, time and again, why what you state is impossible.

    No being, no matter how strong in the force, could even begin to challenge the Q... yet you believe that any random Jedi could disable his powers.

    Now, maybe a Jedi/Sith who has FULLY merged with both the Light and Dark sides of the force, and is fully ONE with the ENTIRE force, would stand a modicum of a chance against one Q. Even then, doubtful.

    The Q can do a number of things that blow the Force clear out of the argument:

    Watching Universes flare into existence and fade into nothingness in what they deem as "moments"

    Being Immortal (yes, a Q can kill another Q, and a Q can give another being to kill a Q, as in Voyager. However, nothing else can kill a Q otherwise, thus only Q's can kill Q's, which makes them, in essence, immortal)

    Omnipotent and Omnipresence - Q's can be anywhere and everywhere, can affect anyone and anything, and can do whatever they please, including, but not limited to:

    Freezing a person solid, then reviving them, with a thought
    Socializing with a person on the exterior hull of a starship floating in space (with no ill effects felt by either)
    Halting the movement of starships with a THOUGHT
    Changing the gravitational constant of the universe
    Moving ships at hundreds of millions times the speed of light without harming the occupants inside
    Granting their powers to another being, then taking them away

    We have seen NO INSTANCE where a Q is threatened by ANYTHING for ANY reason. The ONE TIME Q is at risk is when he was stripped of his powers and turned into, of all things, a HUMAN. Homo Sapien. Regular Old Joe. No Powers At All. That's the ONE time we've seen him get hurt.

    Q is also capable of allowing Picard to alter his own timeline, whilst not allowing ANY of his actions to affect ANYONE else's timeline. An impressive feat to say the least.

    So, yes, please, provide proof of ANYTHING - or at least, what you call "proof".

  15. #17295
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Lots and lots of bullshit
    I fixed your last post for ya. Simplifies things a lot for those that are joining us.

    Yes, burden of proof is on you though, because you are saying it can't be done. Prove it.

    We have proof it can... multiple quotes from multiple people across multiple shows. We know in TOS that the Enterprise was capable of obliterating a city with a simple phaser strike. It was also able to stun a city with a phaser strike. It stands to reason, then, that the TNG era Enterprise can do at LEAST as much. It ALSO stands to reason, then, that a dedicated WARSHIP like the Defiant, can do far, far more.

  16. #17296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    I only use ad hominem attacks because they are the only kind you seem to have any interest in responding to. When presented with data that blows your so called "arguments" out of the water, you run away.
    All you have ever posted is clearly non-canon or clearly ad hominem attacks. I don;t need to respond to non-canon as it by defination is never entered into the equation.

    And you have yet to present ANY kind of argument... because to present a cogent argument you must have:

    A Thesis, Statement, or Opinion (what you are arguing)
    Premise(s) to back your argument up
    Proof that your premise(s) are accurate

    You have provided the first, but neither the second or third. You simply state that because it hasn't been shown to be untrue, it must be true... if arguments worked that way, then God help us all.

    In reality, you have to provide some solid basis of fact - you have yet to do that.

    On the other hand, we have shown you, time and again, why what you state is impossible.
    You have provided nothing.

    No being, no matter how strong in the force, could even begin to challenge the Q... yet you believe that any random Jedi could disable his powers.
    No, I said certain powerful jedi could. The ability to strip a being of it powers is not some random ly learned ability. It is usually only found in the hands of extremely talented Knight or Masters.

    No you are claiming that no being could challenge a Q, you even add in that the Force would not help. What have the Q done that the Organians have not? Of course, you could turn around and say that well that is another ST race. There, there is one being. Thank you. How about the Vorlons? Delvian clergy? Franklin Richards? Scarlet Witch? Jean Grey? Doctor Strange? Doctor Fate? Doctor Who? Willow Rosenberg? .....The list goes on and several of these beings would make the whole continuum look like sheer amatuers.

    Now there have been Jedi?Sith who used Solar flares as artillery pieces, ones who walked through time, touched anopther plane, brought people back formt he dead, rearranged matter, expanded a singularity, and so on.

    What has Q done but things that could arleady be done with ST technology, just on a larger scale.

    Now, maybe a Jedi/Sith who has FULLY merged with both the Light and Dark sides of the force, and is fully ONE with the ENTIRE force, would stand a modicum of a chance against one Q. Even then, doubtful.
    covered above

    The Q can do a number of things that blow the Force clear out of the argument:
    Really?

    Watching Universes flare into existence and fade into nothingness in what they deem as "moments"
    Jedi, Sith, and other force users can do this too, it's called timewalking.

    Being Immortal (yes, a Q can kill another Q, and a Q can give another being to kill a Q, as in Voyager. However, nothing else can kill a Q otherwise, thus only Q's can kill Q's, which makes them, in essence, immortal)
    They never said they were ageless or immortal or that only a Q could kill another Q. In fact you are reading too much into that. There are many transcendant beings and I am sure if the Organians whanted the Q dead, they would be. Other being form other universe are FAR more powerful than the Q. Plus honestly there are forces that likely the Q have no concept of. Humans know of the Q becuase the Q meddle.

    Omnipotent and Omnipresence - Q's can be anywhere and everywhere, can affect anyone and anything, and can do whatever they please, including, but not limited to:
    They are hardly either. If they were both they would not be able to be stripped of their powers, Q would not have offered his power to Riker, and he would not have been pleasantly surprised when Picard figured out the paradox in "All good things..."

    Freezing a person solid, then reviving them, with a thought
    You do realize that more than likely, it was either temporal flux of mass hallucination. Actually rapid freezing of a body would call cell crystalization due to rapid freezing of water.

    Socializing with a person on the exterior hull of a starship floating in space (with no ill effects felt by either)
    I believe it is called force field and lifesupport. Or again Illusion/

    Halting the movement of starships with a THOUGHT
    Well, a cybernetic link to helm would do it.

    Changing the gravitational constant of the universe
    And he couldn;t explain how, but Geordi figured out ghow to do the same thing using a warp bubble.

    Moving ships at hundreds of millions times the speed of light without harming the occupants inside
    It's called hyperdrive.

    Granting their powers to another being, then taking them away
    it's called EQUIPMENT.

    We have seen NO INSTANCE where a Q is threatened by ANYTHING for ANY reason. The ONE TIME Q is at risk is when he was stripped of his powers and turned into, of all things, a HUMAN. Homo Sapien. Regular Old Joe. No Powers At All. That's the ONE time we've seen him get hurt.
    Dude, it's becuase he is the Advesary in an episode. ST writers after Gene were much to simpleminded to ever have two Advesad

    Q is also capable of allowing Picard to alter his own timeline, whilst not allowing ANY of his actions to affect ANYONE else's timeline. An impressive feat to say the least.
    Mass hallucination anyone.

    So, yes, please, provide proof of ANYTHING - or at least, what you call "proof".
    Hey, Jedi and Sith can break the rules of reality as badly as the Q. So it is not out of bounds to think that IF the Q break their own rules and interfere in mortal affairs.

    My main supposition all along has been as long as it is a war of mortals, Q would be bound by their rules of noninterference.
    My proof is the Dominion War. The bloodiest, most destructive war in Alpha quadrant history and Q did nothing.

  17. #17297
    Aus der Dunkelheit Omega133's Avatar
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    What happened to no "Q" and no force?
    Last edited by Omega133; 01-16-10 at 12:27 AM.

  18. #17298
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Burden of proof is always on the one claiming it can be or was done. Since in this case all we have is dialog, with no clear technical or visual example, by a people who have exaggerated in the past you can see how this is not proof.
    Sorry Scott, you claimed to have pictures proving that these weapons are weak, then you better show them. So either show us these images or concede.

    Now if Data had said it, you might have something, but even then the context would need to be there as well
    Like what? It's not like I'm going to post something about the Enterprise D doing something due to technobabble material making the ship generate uber watts and then post it out of context.

    If you believe I have posted something out of context, please show me or at least ask. You have done none of this.



    What you're asking me to show screen shots of weapons fire NOT igniting an atmosphere
    The atmosphere, of which you speak I believe was polluted to some extent. It wasn't that a phaser could by accident do such a thing, but that it could ignit something that was spread over a large portion of the planet and could cause that effect.

    or reducing a planet to cinder?
    Wait, you don't Garak meant a literal cinder do you? No, that's fucking silly. Garak would most likely be talking about the surface of the planet. Ie, cinder doesn't just mean 'small and smoldering', it can be used to describe something. The Defiant just had enough firepower to turn the planet into a cinder in space; ie, burn the surface. Nuclear, global disaster with signicant volcanic activity.

    All of which is easily within the range of low gigaton level weapons and a dedicated time slot. Now, could Garak do that in the time before the Jem'Hadar obliterated the ship? No, probably not. But he seemed fairly confident he could eradicate the founders, which with a small, manuverable ship going full auto at a very large target, that's a very significant possiblity.

    You're asking for all of them? And you are telling me, that while you claim it can be done, you DON"T HAVE TO PROVE IT! Bull shit, burden of proof was on you from the beginning. You can't pass it off on me, it's not the way debate works.
    No, that's not what I'm saying. I never once said that I don't have to prove they could do such a thing. Of course you also sort of ignore the fact that people who work on these ships and are familiar with that technology all seem to have the impression that starship vs undefended planet = fucked.

    I've also proven that the UFP can produce very powerful explosives. The AR quote is at least 1 gigaton at the lowest possible figures and could be several gigatons with higher calcualtions. The one from ATtS is high gigatons, although it's a special bomb, not a standard warhead.



    Actually incorrect, a shaped charge is uasually designed to BURN/MELT it's way through a material. In the case of HEAT warheats for current Anti-Tank munitions, the explosion is channels in such a way as to be a short lived but insanely powerful cutting torch. The result is a hole melted through the material with the molten material acting as liquid shrapnel. The same effect would be given with any energy weapon if it can overpower the conductive properties for te material in question.
    And you don't seem to realize that even with this claim, that you still don't just lose gigatons of energy. You will see it. Anti-tank weapons do not require gigatons of energy. In fact, they require a rather small amount. Gigaton level energy weapons however, are not going to just melt through a material with no significant showing. You're going to see all of that energy directed at the fucking ground. Even if it didn't shoot up a nasty storm cloud of shit, there would be a massive crater. There would be steam and heat from achres of land being vaporized. The surface of the surrounding area would be scorched. And that's just one. We're talking about warships that are spitting these out dozens a second. How the fuck is a planet not supposed to be dead, especially in the case of planetary battles?

    And furthermore, if this is true, then why was an asteroid field in Downfall of a Droid considered an effective barrier? Grievous directly addressed the threat of ships attacking them from behind by claiming that the rocks would protect them. In fact, if the asteroids were useless to begin with, then Anakin's entire trap wouldn't have ever happened, since he would have then known that Grievous wouldn't bother using the rocks because a fully volley from three Venators would have vaporized any rocks standing in their way. And it in fact, would have even made it more effective because they're directed energy blasts.



    True, to an extent. It's not going to look like a gigotn bomb went off, hell it will probably be less than a few hundred feet in diameter that suffers secondary damage.
    No it wouldn't. Do you understand the scale of the sort of power we're talking about? A fifty megaton bomb--with just a fraction of its power focused at the ground, caused a massive sesmic wave that was still detectable on its third way around the Earth. You're not talking about something that's a few times stronger. You're talking about a weapon that's 4,000x the yield and instead of just say, a fraction of that energy going into the planet, you now have about 70-100% of that power going into the planet.

    The entire planet is literally going to feel one of those blasts, probably with countless geological results. And that's one. The Venator's main guns have been seen to fire two or three pulses a second. You'd get 32 to 64 shots of that shit flying around.

    Two massive warships duking it out over the planet are going to not only be noticed, but they're going to make the second coming look like Mr. Rogers taking a stroll around the block.

    We remember the we DO NOT SEE starship level weapons ever used on a planetary surface. In the books the few times you see ship level weapons used, acres of land were instantly turned to lava fields.
    Really? Let's see that. Because Downfall of a Droid spits right in the face of that. And it's T canon.


    You have provided no equations, no proofs, and have ignored canon material. If EU clamims a Heavy Turbolaser is 200 gigatons in a technical manual then it is 200 gigatons. There is no argument against it as we see nothing in the movies that we can use to disprove the EU.
    Really? How about the fact that Saxon's numbers are based entirely on bullshit? He based his entire figures on the mixing of two sources which had nothing to do with each other. Fuck, do you even know that a Base Delta Zero doesn't use one ship? Did you know that it doesn't assume lack of space superority? Did you know that clean up operations require TIE fighters? Did you know that after one naval captain was to perform a Base Delta Zero, he would have to go down and inspect the damage? Did you know he was horrified at having to look at charred corpses? Did you know that Saxon assumed his figures for Base Delta Zero based on the idea of taking an ISD could 'slag a planet' from an RPG book and applied it to Base Delta Zero? That he then assumed that this would be done with one ship and that it wouldn't have space superority?

    Saxon got his bullshit numbers by cherry picking canon figures and it shows. Fuck, there's even a case where an ISD is trying to melt through ice to get to a ship with Han's son on it on a planet. Guess what didn't happen? Them making it in one or two shots and massive melting of the planet as well as massive steam and heat via gigatons of energy being poured directly into the planet.


    First of all, the Empire was hadicapped by the fact that Palpatine had to appear as if he was blameless to the core worlds.
    Prove it.


    The Rebellion took advantage of this and kept their manufacturing assets among the Core Worlds, as well as in Hut SPace, the Coporate Sector and a few areas that were deemed valueless.
    Really? Beause most sources name the Mon Cals as the only capital ship builders of the Republic, with a few others naming one other source. Everything else produced fighters.

    Or did you miss that little fact?

    Also in the case of the Rebellion he was fighting his own people. He did need to maintain the appearance that the Rebels were just an iincovience.
    An inconvinience? How? By showing that he couldn't dispose of them at a moment's notice? And that when he tried, he utterly failed? Is that also why the Imperial fleet didn't invade the one ship yard producing warships that could tangle with an Imperial Star Destroyer and come out in better condition?


    In an all out war against an outside opponent who can truly be framed for a truly vile act, he could easialy get the support of even the most rebellious systems.
    No he couldn't. Because those rebellious systems don't trust the Empire. And even if they believed that Starfleet performed a General Order 24 on a planet, they'd probably suspect that it was out of a sense of self-defense. They sure as hell wouldn't just throw their lot in with the Empire.

    In fact, it's that the Rebels proved to be a military threat that put them on the map so to speak. Before Yavin the Rebels were little more than a bad joke at best and scum at worst. Afterwards, when people saw that the Empire could in fact, be fought, they gained a massive political advance. Hell, the Empire knew it couldn't crush every opposing system, especially if they had a defense fleet. And those fleets, the highest being Mon Calamari, would require less than a hundred ships to overcome.

    The Federation has thousands of ships. If you believe that the Empire can take them simply by trying to frame them--you know, like they tried to paint the Mon Calamari into a bad people, then you're dreaming.



    It only takes 7 pounds over pressure to kill a person. Besides it sounded like he wanted to empty the magazines.
    Empty the magazines? They're talking about torpedoes. And a full spread is about 3-6 torpedoes, hence O'Brien's response quoting at least double the amount.


    Yes, he wanted to use NINETY TONS of Ultitritum. Not a 90 isoton bomb, but ninety tons of a material known to warp space/time in the area. This explains why you don;t understand. You were thinking the bomb is the equivalent of 90 tons of TNT when he was obviously refering to 90 tons of a rare and powerful explosive.
    God you're such a desperate fuck. So isotons for warheads and bombs is equal to TNT explosives when you want it to be, but when I quote someone saying the same word for the same type of use, it's suddenly weight? And where is this space/time warp bullshit coming from? It made no mention of it in the episode. He simply said there would be an explosion.

    You can't have it both ways. Either isotons for bombs/warheads refers to the yield in tons, it refers to them in a manner in yield but not equal to tons, or it refers to their weight.

    Yes, I am. And so are others now.
    Really? Because you just tried to wiggle out of it and you still are.

    Excuse me, but you guys claims weapons fire could ignite atmosphere.
    I never claimed that. If you want to address the person who did, speak to them.

    And then claims that Isoton must equal an obscene amount of mega of gigtons.
    We don't know what isoton refers to. The problem is that it doesn't make sense if we're talking about weight or TNT ton yields because the level of destruction they need to perform with such weapons is physically impossible.

    I even provided proof in the way of videos showing conventional 100ton and 429 ton explosion that are MUCH more impressive than any planetary strike seen in the shows.
    Ah yes, appealing to visuals again. Because everyone knows that all visual sci-fi is 100% correct all the time. And I'm sure Star Trek shows in an age where even the most recent series was at the beginning of CGI use in TV would have 100% accurate special effects.

    And of course, let's ignore all of that dialogue where the characters says 100% different things.



    Except in this case what the is shown in the show SUPPORTS my claim.
    Really? Kinda funny how you keep asserting that and yet you seem to just simply forget that you're trying to squirm out of my request for evidence. Really funny:

    Scott: We see subkiloton yields throughout Star Trek. It's in every episode that we see them in.
    Hellblade: Can I see them?
    Scott: Oh I see, so when I ask for images for stuff like that you can blow me off, but when you ask it for me, I can't. I'm not showing anything.
    Hellblade: Well if it's so common to see these things, why don't you post them and be done with it?
    Scott: Because you need to prove your claims with images.
    Hellblade: But I'm asking you to prove your claims. After all, they're so common why not do it and just end the debate?
    Scott: You first.

    ---Five Minutes Later---

    Scott: Are you questioning me? We see evidence proving me right. Why can't you just accept that?
    Hellblade: How about because you won't post the fucking pictures?

    If you had a valid argument instead of ad hominems then perhaps I would answer.
    Yeah, sorry that doesn't work. I'm not supplementing my responses with insults. I may insult you in them, but I am not relying upon them to support my responses. They come out of the frustration of you being as stubborn as a wall of force and as transparent as one when you run and then come back two weeks later claiming no one's ever disproven you.

    You're a fucking liar because you keep pretending that no one is even capable of challenging your shit when we have. You don't even come back and jump back in, you keep repeating the same shit as always. How many times have you come back slapping your 200 gigaton to the 12 billion gigawatt quote from Data and crowing like you've actually got a pair? I've lost count. And every time I challenge you on it and we get into it, you run off for a few weeks and come back do start it all over again.

    And of course, after I pound you senseless yet again, you'll leave and come back again.

    It's actually rather fucking boring by now.

  19. #17299
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega133 View Post
    What happened to no "Q" and no force?
    Yeah guys, no god-like bullshit bullshit here. We all know we're here for military and political capabilities. Using that simply derails the discussion.

  20. #17300
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega133 View Post
    What happened to no "Q" and no force?
    Well mainly that was found to be absurd. Canonically while Q would not interfere in a war between the lesser races or even a act like what happened in Star Trek(2009). At the same time Canonically Force users are always quite prevalent in conflicts in the SW galaxy.

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