Star Wars vs Star Trek

[TW Scott]

I like how you simplify Treks weapons as much as possible and overamp yours...

Remember, phasers can do everything from a mild stun of a single life form to the total and utter sub-atomic disassembly of huge quantities of shielded material... thus, they dont' NEED a variety of weapons because their standard weapon is more than potent enough

You forgot that a phaser is stopped by the first material it hits and cannot even penetrate a light packing crate. So apparantly they are lacking in ability.

[antaran_1979]

Pray tell how do you plan to block all of the following sensor types:

Visual
Thermal
X-Ray
Gravimetric
Electromagnetic

without harming the ground forces and their ability to target?

prey tell do you find all those scanners (interlinked with a TP never the less) on the ground? are you intending to point a tricorder at the enemy?

[antaran_1979]

Uhm, 90% of Trek vessels are capable of atmospheric travel... the key words here are Controlled Entry - the Ent-D's saucer section blasted into the atmosphere at well over half impulse... so probably around Mach 20 at a bare minimum...

Conversely, a SW Capital Ship was ripped apart by atmospheric re-entry at speeds slow enough that water jets were able to be poured onto the ship...

ahem, if you wouldlike me to be more specific, yes a Fed ship can hover in the uper layers of the atmoshere but they are not build to be taicaly usefull in such scenarios that involve even 1/4 impulse. we can only speculate what is their "safe" speed limit in say the stratosphere.

[antaran_1979]

Remember, 99% of the "ground combat" we see in Trek is accomplished via non-military personnel. The MACO's were quite adept at fighting, and we shouldn't assume they were scrapped just because we rarely see them - remember, ST isn't about ground combat. It follows the Enterprise, Voyager, DS9, not random ships and soldiers.

but you see this is really why we are so restricted when we defend UFP in ground combat. the burden of proof falls on the one that claims the entity's existance. the same rule goes for SW when they descrube all the miriad ships and equipement that there is no trace of in the movies and clone wars but only in some books (SW canon is a mess, many would use ALL the works in their deffence).

[antaran_1979]

Actually their speed and maneuverbity is ONLY challenged by A-Wings and even then A-Wings lose to the standard TIE and are seriously out classed by the Interceptor TIE and then there is Defender TIE and TIE BOmbers (which can also be used as torpedo platforms)


The advantage of the TIE is their cheap, mass produced and they come in LARGE numbers. Plus they have decent firepower. One TIE is a joke, four TIEs is a damn tough fight, a Dozen is a nightmare and a Squadron of 72 is not to be laughed at. And you get 72 of those boys for the price of 12 X-wings.

Now four TIE could easily take a shuttle, no problem and at worst lose a single fighter. Since a ground base is not like to have more than 12 shuttles ready at any one time...Your looking at 6 to one odds. Shuttles are not meant for dogfight, while the TIE is. Do the math.

i did not mention the interceptors, tie-advanced or defenders. not even the bombers. i specificaly pointed the basic fighters. they are probably cheap (hence the lack of quality) but they are the worse option for a pilot to fly in SW. as for the shuttles VS ties, i really have no opinion on that one. i gues if the battle is near a planet's uper atmoshere the ties would have a bit more of a chance, but not by much. in open space, they are simply to resrtrected in their operations.

[antaran_1979]

Then whats this say? You came in here arguing for the Trek side, and now you just argue against it and you "dont like it" means what? I dont give a shit if u like it or not. I dont like ISDs and Death Stars. There, now you warsies cant use them?

fuck OFF with that stupid BULL shit dude.

Im just kidding, ISDs were my fav right behind the Falcon.

you must realise i am not really taking a "side" because i like them. i just hate when people start making up "shit" (as you'd say), to make their side win. the rules of the engagement were clearly defined in the beggining, only what's confirmed goes.

and yes i like the ISDs too. they just have that "back off i'm mean MF" looks.

as for the rest of your comment TWS already replied

[antaran_1979]

I will give you that, but the Ion cannons on starships are dozens of times more powerful than the ones voyager faced Plus being peppered with 60 of them? It would not take long for an Intrepid class to be lifeless floating in space.

the example you chose is a good one to make a point, after all the Intrepid is not really that heavily shielded. what i laways foun fishy (like i did with the portable transporter thingy) was that an ion cannon is anywhere near a SW laser or turbo laser in their firepower. all the ion guns i've ever seen in movie or a game, do absolutely 0 damage against equipement or rock, so what ever their type of dammage is it probably works only on electrical systems. if they were , say 1000 times more powerful then your standard ion storm (what ever that is) they would cause serios thermal burnouts throut a starship's hull and easely fry smaller vessels or objects

[antaran_1979]

Actually if you want to spring a trap Jamming comms directly at first is a no-no. it tends to tip off the enemy. Later it's pointless anyways as to guarantee no comms you have to make sure you can't talk either, which would be stupid.

maybe, but if they were jamming the sensors it really did tip of the trap anyways. meh as i said to ambigous for me to offer any insight

[antaran_1979]

Well StormTroopers are not the only type of Imperial troop remeber. they are the shock troops. The heavies you send in in a blitzkreig and then follow up with your specialty troopers. Like the Imperial Guard or the 501st both of which are more akin to special forces. then ther is the Noghri which given canon one would easily take out even Vulcan troops.


Don't forget the Empire has more troops than the Federation has citizens. Hell the average ISD carries enough troops to go one on one with the crew and family of 9 Galaxy Class cruisers.

The incompetence we saw in ANH and ROTJ is easily explained. In ANH they were ordered to put on a show but still let the Falcon go. It takes a very dedicated trooper to miss intentionally while some kidd is killing your friends. In ROTJ the troops were expecting a easy victory. The had no idea they were suddenly face to face with 1500 warrior natives. Ewoks maybe small and furry, but they have managed to keep themselves on the winning side of a constant war with creatures that can go toe to toe with a wookie and have invented steel.

never the less the storms are what we see imployed. i have no doubt they have some special forces too, but when someone mentions empire infantry, those are it. for their numbers... this lives us with much speculation. i'd expect the empire to outmatch UFP in sheer numbers yes. but not the UFP, Klingons (as useless as their melees seam to be), Romulans, Cardassians or Gorn put together with other factions. Dominion alone is probably the most inwxhaustable source of "men-power" and eqipement in SF. their troops and crews become fully operational in only 7 days, whicj means that unlike other factions that can rebuild their fleets in small time periods, the Dominion can actually men them too.

[antaran_1979]

ST weapons of the federation

• Concealed Handphaser-A concealer phaser with an minimal profile an my guess limited power supply.
• Type I Hand Phaser- A standard side arm
• Type II Hand phaser- Improved Sidearm
• Phaser Rifle- In a variety of shapes, early ones appared to be an elongated hand haser with pistol grip and foregrip, Laser phaser rifles included sights and a more ergonomic layout
• Phaser Cannon Light vehicle weapon slightly more powerful than the rifles
• Launcher a shoulder launcher with a explosive projectile about the same deadliness as a 20thC HE grenade
• Ka-Bar combat knife just like the modern one

SW infantry Weapons of the Empire

• Hand Blaster: Comes in man froms from Princess Leias personal defense blaster to Han's heavy blaster pistol.
• E-II Blaster Rifle: The short carbine sized blaster rifle used by Stormtroopers.
• Blastech Light Repeating Blaster: The large machinegun sized blaster seen carried by some stormtroopers.
• E-Web Heavy Repeating Blaster: Seen in ESB this tripod mounted blaster is made for heavy combat and taking out power armored troops and light vehicles.
• Frag launcher: This launcher launches concusion missles able to take out medium vehicles and masses of troops. Rarely use inside starships for fear of damaging equipment.
• Frag Grenades
• Icendiary Grenades
• Chemical Grenades
• Sonic Grenades
• Thermal Detonator upto 4 kilotons
• Flame Thrower: hand and rifle
• Vibroblades: Knives and swords vibrating at thousands ofhertz able to cut through anything
• Stun Batons
• Nueral Stun batons

can't say i've "seen" all the weapons yu mentioned in SW but you forgot Kirk's photon granade mortar
allthough cheesy looking that thing packed quite a bang

-edit-
and the sniper-transporter rifle

[TW Scott]

Originally Posted by Kittamaru
Uhm, 90% of Trek vessels are capable of atmospheric travel... the key words here are Controlled Entry - the Ent-D's saucer section blasted into the atmosphere at well over half impulse... so probably around Mach 20 at a bare minimum...

Conversely, a SW Capital Ship was ripped apart by atmospheric re-entry at speeds slow enough that water jets were able to be poured onto the ship...

Actually while many star trek vessels can travel in upper atmosphere for short period they must do so slowly. The GCS Enterprise was in danger of destroying itself when travelling at 1/4 impulse in an atmosphere.


As for the descent of the Invisible Hand. The ships had suffered massive structura damage before it had ever even started plummets toward Coruscant. Also from the way the spray stuck to the ships hull instead of evaporating away that was obviously a very high pressure foam being sprayed. Probablyy enahnced with repulser technology to account for it;s realitive steady steam. Besides did you not see the end of Attack of the CLones when massive carrier ships were liesurely taking from Coruscant.

[antaran_1979]

And even 3 squadrens of TIE's vs a Federation Starship is a slaughter, as the phaser emitters pulse rapidly to obliterate entire squadrens at once...

dude, that's not fair, TIE's should be compared with the smalles of shuttlepods not full class starships. and in that department i think TWS was intuitivly right. it would probably take around 4 ties (maybe 6 to be on the safe side) to take out on of those those

[TW Scott]

can't say i've "seen" all the weapons yu mentioned in SW but you forgot Kirk's photon granade mortar
allthough cheesy looking that thing packed quite a bang

Actually in defense SW gets EU while there is no such thing for Star Trek. And I did not mention the Photn mortar as it was obviously a support weapon akin to today 60mm mortars (in size if not effect) We also didn't see all that much destructive potentila as it targets (unarmored Gorns on foot) survive to run away.

[antaran_1979]

True ground assaults may not be threatening...till they reach Earth.

ground assults woul be usefull every time there is no direct starships suport. at least in UFP's case. they do have the ability to stun from orbit with ship sized phasers. for the empire it is a bit more direct. if they want to capture a base/city/planet they have to invade.

[antaran_1979]

The fact that EVERY number that has been crunched proved that even your HTL's will be almost 100% deflected by Trek shields... the only part of your weapons that will have any effect is the minuscule kinetic portion of the blast... the reason for this is because trek shields operate via gravimetric fields, which, much like a black hole, would cause almost all of the bolts energy to harmlessly deflect into space.

dude, SW lasers are not lasers. they can't be. jsut look at the movies. they sure don't act as lasers.

[antaran_1979]

Proof of output. Able to defeat shields of ISD which canonically can survive several hits from a ~900,000,000,000,000,000 joule weapon. Output of uss Enterprises warp core is cannicall ~50,000,000,000,000,000,000 so the weapon is capable of more that 180 times the power oout put one of the best Warp cores in the Federation. Ergo they must be more power and thus it must be more devastating than even a powerful ionstorm.

see my upper comment on ion cannons

[antaran_1979]

You forgot that a phaser is stopped by the first material it hits and cannot even penetrate a light packing crate. So apparantly they are lacking in ability.

they also blast through lots of rock, turn those into nothing, kineticaly open a blast door without any recoil, melt metal and rock...if we have to be neatty we musty say that if a phaser stops at a cardboard box it is configured to do so. blame the silly but politicaly correct policy of non-lethal force usage

[antaran_1979]

Actually in defense SW gets EU while there is no such thing for Star Trek. And I did not mention the Photn mortar as it was obviously a support weapon akin to today 60mm mortars (in size if not effect) We also didn;t see all that much destructive potentila as it targets (unarmed Gorns on foot) survive to run away.

that thing always puzzled me. i mean it created a really big bang, followed by a shockwave that even a heavy artilery shell would not acomplish, heck even a plane droped heavy bomb, but the gorn survived. was Kirk's aim really that off? did he miss on purpose? were gorn shielded?

[Kittamaru]

prey tell do you find all those scanners (interlinked with a TP never the less) on the ground? are you intending to point a tricorder at the enemy?

Sure they are, and why not? A TriCorder in close range is just as accurate as a starship scanner... easier to scramble (if you're expecting it), but I highly doubt SW would know what kind of signals to even attempt to scramble to block Trek comms and sensors.

[Kittamaru]

ahem, if you wouldlike me to be more specific, yes a Fed ship can hover in the uper layers of the atmoshere but they are not build to be taicaly usefull in such scenarios that involve even 1/4 impulse. we can only speculate what is their "safe" speed limit in say the stratosphere.

True, but then again, a SSD, ISD, or VSD is hardly "tactically" useful in atmospheric flight... it can land, it can fire from orbit, whoop de doo, so can trek Starships. lol.