Star Wars vs Star Trek

[TW Scott]

How did I not see this was another mislead die-hard SW fan? Maybe the reason they don't go all battle mech on ground assault vehicles is because ground assaults aren't really very threatening.

really? ground combat not interesting? Can anyoen explain to me then why some of the best police chases in the world are hijacked tanks?

Realistically ground combat is every bit as interesting as space combat. In fact it is more so in most cases. I mean look at all the games with ground combat as the focus. Yes zoming around in a starship is fun, but it isn;t the same as leading a squad through a war ravaged city hoping to find the enemy before they snipe you.

[fedr808]

Dude, all of those examples of coordination are just an example of an army marching in a straight line, assuming your not drunk, or retarded, its relatively easy to do.

[antaran_1979]

The new Star Trek movie, and a handful of times in TOS - they were able to "manually" lock targetting scanners when they were unable to utilize the automatic functions.

dude, they were still able to clearly detect and "see" what they were transporting

[antaran_1979]

The Galaxy Class starship has 4 sets of cargo transporters capable of storing large items in the pattern buffer... even the Enterprise-E was able to beam a full Scorpion Attack craft plus Picard and Data into it's shuttlebay.

And @Scotch - ECM? You are joking right... SW ECM is a joke. They'd be better off covering their ships in aluminum foil with the shiny side out!

they sure did, but the scorpion is what, 4-6 meters at length at best? way smaller in heith and width. the ST is at least 7m tall. i never saw a transporter that size

[antaran_1979]

And you're wrong again about the personal transporter - remember Nemesis? Yup, that lil baby is it. No outside help. It's a site to site transporter, nothing more, nothing less. Doesn't send out signals to tie into the onboard systems or else EVERYONE and their mother would know about it the second it went active because, unlike in SW, Trek ships functions are actually monitored in a couple locations.

i only speculate but maybe it used the bulk of the E-Es transporter grid. or the Scimitar's for that matter. anyway there is no way for me to confirm this. i just don'y like the portable transporters. never did mever will.

[antaran_1979]

Lolerrific! You're implying that your TIE fighters have a greater weapons range AND POWER than our shuttles (bullshit and a known CANNON fact that the opposite is true), that Ion Cannons would have any effect against trek shields

ion canons have no special properties against shields but they could disrupt some magnetic containments if they penetrate deep enough. they do have to get through the deffences first though (shields and SIF-hull)

[antaran_1979]

1.As for using a transporter in a battle, I did not suggest it for a primary force with which to engage the enemy. It's only to eliminate key strategic elements. Its still a combat scenario with normal gear, only transporters give Trek the edge. Sorry to those who think its just a bad idea but that shows me that those that have their heads so far up their asses they cant think due to the pressure just have no imagination and only accept battle strategies and tactics that already exist.

2.So believe what you want but you don't convince me. And I damn sure dont care to convince you if you're too thick to get it. This whole debate is like 'SW never did this, so it cant be done, Trek doesnt do this so it cant be done." I'm not willing to counter a Hoth-like ground attack with only what I watched happen on a Trek episode, because I dont mentally catalog every tactic ever shown. If what we're supposed to be doing is inventing our own scenario using all available tech that exists, and use some ingenuity to develop other ways we've not seen (DUH. like SW vs ST) then you can either accept some shit as feasible or argue it into the dirt like antaran keeps trying to do.

3.I thought imagination was what made this kinda debate fun. SW coming over the horizon, not on icy snow but something the walkers can at least work with. Some slight terrain anomolies, hills, little spots that can be used for cover. I'm trying to think it thru and work with it. But I see some guys just want to argue what can and can't be done. And YES, bitches. Disable the safeties and just find a target and blindly dematerialize at least a part of something and make it not function. Shit, you could beam the ground out from under a walker and make it fall in. Shit, use some fuckin imagination -thats what makes it fun.

1.no you mention it as a battle/war winning deus-ex machina no contest all for the win gadget in ST's favor. or so the last 2 pages say.

2.convince you? what makes you think i'm trying to convince you? in all this centuries of dabating has anyone ever convinced the oponent in anything? no my young aprentice this is all to convince any neutral party if such indeed exists

3.well then, get paramount to hire you and in the next movie maybe you can use transporters in such a fashion. not that it would help, they made sure anything we know about trek will never be aplicable again (paralel universes and all that stuff)

[antaran_1979]

Not to mention the obvious - transport a squad of MACO's into an AT-AT and have em take it over. Now what's SW gonna do? Without A-Wings or Speeders, their fucked!

now this is something that is canon and how transporters were used in trek.

[antaran_1979]

1.Incorrect, groaud assault forces would still be of use in the city ships. And EW always messes up traporters If a simple Ion storm is enough to mess with 23rd C transporters then focused sensor jamming would be enough to counter even Voth transporters. And remeber that civilizations in SW are as old as the Voth are they have had Hyperdrive for 25,000 years and before that had FTL too.




2.The fact that it is never done tells me that while theorhetically feasible in practice it is impossible. After all we can;t think all of ST is dumber than we are and hadn;t thought of these possibilities.

1. well by ground i ment "ground" ground as on a planetary body, preferably outside any sensor ritch environement. transporting stuff from your own ship onto your own ship is never tarted my anything aside a force field as much as i reclall. and you mentioned a 23 century? bah. that is old even by TNG UFP standards, not to mention the Voth. they beamed aboard voyager with SIF, EPS, shield and all. i don't think a bit of random EM is going to bugg them.

2.and i agree again. i would love use pahsers that open up subspace gateways to launch torpedoes through them but this has never been done allthough hand held phasers have been configured to affect subspace. hence by strategy may be creative but it is not canon

[antaran_1979]

Are you kidding? The ECM of SW is so good that they were able to hide the presence of a planetary shield in ROTJ. None of the rebel ships could detect the shield, despite the fact that it was encircling a 1600 km vessel and had the power to deflect any known assault.

and yet it was not good enough to jam their comms. i would like to be able to rant more on the subject, but i just find this SW jamming far to ambigous

[antaran_1979]

True, however it really doesn;t save the shuttle all that much. The ceramic plates under the shuttle are still a necessity for survival. Then there was the onld capsules that didn;t really have the advantages you are speaking of. Sure they did to a degree, but still required a heavy heat shield.

Now we know that larger vessels in Star Trek do suffer for travelling in atmosphere. In fact only the Intrepid and Defiant classes seem capable of surviving rentry and escape.

However most SW vessels are quite capable of rentry with absolutely no hassle. Even TIE fighters which only have partical shielding have NO problems with rentry. Even large vessels like the Executioner are known for landing on planets.

this is largely true, UFP ships are just not designed for atmospheric flight (most of them) and especially not at 1/4 impulse or so.

[antaran_1979]

Are you kidding?

ST idea of infantry is a bunch of people with phaser rifles and hand phasers. As seen by the dominion war.

SW we have guys in NBC sealed armor with assault carbines, Squad support weapons, heavy support weapons, grenades, mines, anti vehicle support weapons and the works.

if we were to compare them to real armies.
Star Trek 18th Century British Redcoats.
Star Wars 21st US mechanized Infantry

Everything shown by ST and SW confirms that SW would wipe the floor with ST in ground warfare.

well there were the MACO's and armored security guys in STTMP. so maybe a comparison to special forces is more apropriate. but there are no heavy units that we know of. mechanisation is ST is acheaved by shuttles and transporter drops.

but don't give the US so little credit by comparing them to the Empire ground troops. stormies don't know of concepts like cover and flanking and seem more suited for trench or riflemen tactics. plus they totally fail in guerilla warfare.

[antaran_1979]

First of all, NOBODY has proven that a TIE fighter is at all inferior to a Type I or II shuttle.

dude, basic Ties are the epithome of bad fihter in SF. they are the biplanes in the era of stelth supercruise jets. they have no shields, lousy structural integrity, poor range, limited weapons. i can't recall an SF movie with fighter as bad as that. even the original BSG was better.

[antaran_1979]

Dude, all of those examples of coordination are just an example of an army marching in a straight line, assuming your not drunk, or retarded, its relatively easy to do.

that is adly true, but then again the empire has a lot to learn. anything close to copetence we've seen were some of the clones in EPIII. even more sad is that most of the ground combat in trek is not impressive eigther. this is why i agree with TWS that Empire has the advantage in ground combat when compared to the Alpha quadant if not for anything else then for the greater diversity of equipement. it was not untill the end of the dominion war that we saw the UFP utilise more diversive infantry weapons and we are yet to see dedicated vehicles.

[Kittamaru]

dude, they were still able to clearly detect and "see" what they were transporting

Pray tell how do you plan to block all of the following sensor types:

Visual
Thermal
X-Ray
Gravimetric
Electromagnetic

without harming the ground forces and their ability to target?

[Kittamaru]

this is largely true, UFP ships are just not designed for atmospheric flight (most of them) and especially not at 1/4 impulse or so.

Uhm, 90% of Trek vessels are capable of atmospheric travel... the key words here are Controlled Entry - the Ent-D's saucer section blasted into the atmosphere at well over half impulse... so probably around Mach 20 at a bare minimum...

Conversely, a SW Capital Ship was ripped apart by atmospheric re-entry at speeds slow enough that water jets were able to be poured onto the ship...

[Kittamaru]

that is adly true, but then again the empire has a lot to learn. anything close to copetence we've seen were some of the clones in EPIII. even more sad is that most of the ground combat in trek is not impressive eigther. this is why i agree with TWS that Empire has the advantage in ground combat when compared to the Alpha quadant if not for anything else then for the greater diversity of equipement. it was not untill the end of the dominion war that we saw the UFP utilise more diversive infantry weapons and we are yet to see dedicated vehicles.

Remember, 99% of the "ground combat" we see in Trek is accomplished via non-military personnel. The MACO's were quite adept at fighting, and we shouldn't assume they were scrapped just because we rarely see them - remember, ST isn't about ground combat. It follows the Enterprise, Voyager, DS9, not random ships and soldiers.

[Kittamaru]

As for Scotch's comments - most of those are so laughable that I'm not even going to bother. The rest - I know how he is. He doesn't respond when he can't win via strawman attacks and bullshit assumptions, so I'm not going to bother with him. I would suggest the rest of you do the same, lest he drag you down into the infernal flamepit that is his living hell of ignorance.

[alpinedigital]

Incorrect, groaud assault forces would still be of use in the city ships. And EW always messes up traporters If a simple Ion storm is enough to mess with 23rd C transporters then focused sensor jamming would be enough to counter even Voth transporters. And remeber that civilizations in SW are as old as the Voth are they have had Hyperdrive for 25,000 years and before that had FTL too.




The fact that it is never done tells me that while theorhetically feasible in practice it is impossible. After all we can;t think all of ST is dumber than we are and hadn;t thought of these possibilities.

Um... no. Becasue agaiin... you're looking at transports with every safety on.

Are you kidding?

ST idea of infantry is a bunch of people with phaser rifles and hand phasers. As seen by the dominion war.

SW we have guys in NBC sealed armor with assault carbines, Squad support weapons, heavy support weapons, grenades, mines, anti vehicle support weapons and the works.

if we were to compare them to real armies.
Star Trek 18th Century British Redcoats.
Star Wars 21st US mechanized Infantry

Everything shown by ST and SW confirms that SW would wipe the floor with ST in ground warfare.

Explain the weapons then, smart guy. They exist. Just cuzz you dont see them in a specific episode don't mean they can't be used.

really? ground combat not interesting? Can anyoen explain to me then why some of the best police chases in the world are hijacked tanks?

Realistically ground combat is every bit as interesting as space combat. In fact it is more so in most cases. I mean look at all the games with ground combat as the focus. Yes zoming around in a starship is fun, but it isn;t the same as leading a squad through a war ravaged city hoping to find the enemy before they snipe you.

That is COMPLETELY opinionated. I didnt find any hijacked tank chase interesting at all. You found that entertaining, yeah? Probably the difference between Trek fans and Wars fans. You guys see shit like this and it fascinates you. We see it and think, look an idiot stole a tank and drove it down a residential street.

[TW Scott]

dude, basic Ties are the epithome of bad fihter in SF. they are the biplanes in the era of stelth supercruise jets. they have no shields, lousy structural integrity, poor range, limited weapons. i can't recall an SF movie with fighter as bad as that. even the original BSG was better.

Actually their speed and maneuverbity is ONLY challenged by A-Wings and even then A-Wings lose to the standard TIE and are seriously out classed by the Interceptor TIE and then there is Defender TIE and TIE BOmbers (which can also be used as torpedo platforms)


The advantage of the TIE is their cheap, mass produced and they come in LARGE numbers. Plus they have decent firepower. One TIE is a joke, four TIEs is a damn tough fight, a Dozen is a nightmare and a Squadron of 72 is not to be laughed at. And you get 72 of those boys for the price of 12 X-wings.

Now four TIE could easily take a shuttle, no problem and at worst lose a single fighter. Since a ground base is not like to have more than 12 shuttles ready at any one time...Your looking at 6 to one odds. Shuttles are not meant for dogfight, while the TIE is. Do the math.