View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #16701
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinedigital View Post
    Trek would kick everyone's asses regardless.
    that surely was scientific

  2. #16702
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    that surely was scientific
    okay. Trek would kick everyone's asses 99.86% of the time. lol
    after so many shows and series, there's enough 'toys' to help them out of just about any situation.

    On a different note...

    If in hyperspace, a ship cannot affect things in normal space... why would things in normal space affect a ship in hyperspace? Like if you set a collision course with a stationary ship and jumped to hyperspace, would you collide with it?

  3. #16703
    Quote Originally Posted by alpinedigital View Post
    okay. Trek would kick everyone's asses 99.86% of the time. lol
    after so many shows and series, there's enough 'toys' to help them out of just about any situation.

    On a different note...

    If in hyperspace, a ship cannot affect things in normal space... why would things in normal space affect a ship in hyperspace? Like if you set a collision course with a stationary ship and jumped to hyperspace, would you collide with it?
    Well the way I see it is that there are two elvels of space, hyperspace and subspace. see my pretty little letter picture

    -----------------------(Normal space)-----------------------
    _____________________(subspace)___________________ ____

    So a ship enters and goes through subspace

    a ship goes into subspace and is moving a long, now the reason why it cant affect anything out of hyperspace is purely cuz energy weapons move at speed of light and the ship is moving faster, ie, try going fast in a car and spitting out the sun roof straight, what will happen is you will end up running into said spit and it smacks you in the face. Same diea with energy weapons except getting grossed otu would be the elast fo your problems.

    The only way something in normal space could affect you is if it entered subspace.

  4. #16704
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    Well the way I see it is that there are two elvels of space, hyperspace and subspace. see my pretty little letter picture

    -----------------------(Normal space)-----------------------
    _____________________(subspace)___________________ ____

    So a ship enters and goes through subspace

    a ship goes into subspace and is moving a long, now the reason why it cant affect anything out of hyperspace is purely cuz energy weapons move at speed of light and the ship is moving faster, ie, try going fast in a car and spitting out the sun roof straight, what will happen is you will end up running into said spit and it smacks you in the face. Same diea with energy weapons except getting grossed otu would be the elast fo your problems.

    The only way something in normal space could affect you is if it entered subspace.
    Problem with your hypothetical situation:

    Spit has mass, weight, and resistance (air)

    In Space, your weapon would be imparted with the velocity of your ship IN ADDITION to the velocity of it's own exit from the ship. Then, since there's no real resistance in space, it should keep going.

  5. #16705
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Problem with your hypothetical situation:

    Spit has mass, weight, and resistance (air)

    In Space, your weapon would be imparted with the velocity of your ship IN ADDITION to the velocity of it's own exit from the ship. Then, since there's no real resistance in space, it should keep going.

    There is that idea, but imagine space being an environment where normal physics and everything we see applies as normal. However, we have slow space (water) and fast space (air). Now imagine our ships are fish... and we can jump out of water but we need hyperdrive 'wings' in order to remain in the faster space... and things that exist in slow space may or may not extend into fast space. So a land mass could be like a planet, but you can jump to fast space and fly over it...

    the thing Im wondering is if anyone has described what there is in normal space that also extends into any subspace, underspace, hyperspace, etc. It could be a ship could duck out of normal space, and have a straight shot to anywhere without worrying about most things that exist in normal space, unless the physics extend into hyperspace, like a powerful enough gravity pull could actually stretch spacetime, extending into an underspace. A ship traveling close enough to it or slow enough to it, risks that gravity sucking you back into normal space... and you'd find yourself caught in the gravity of a star or black hole or something.

    Kind of an intriguing concept of whether matter would extend into an underspace. I mean, say hyperspace is an alternate space you can only get to by jumping to faster than light speed... nothing else traveling fast enough should exist there. Subspace corridors or transwarp conduits - do they really curve around obstacles? If those paths are actually routes along warped or folded space, then most things that exist in normal space would need to be sucked in like through a black hole or other entry point. And then the other thought I had was how slow could you cruise, and could you actually stop while in route to some distant area of the galaxy, and just 'sit' in a corridor, perhaps hiding from any ship that was searching for you? Kinda like ships on the ocean hunting for a sub.

    But yeah, SW has hyperspace... ST has underspace, subspace, conduits and corridors... pretty much every theoretical alternate space, reality, dimension, etc. Well pretty much the Borg are the species most likely to have the tech to open passages thru such alternate regions of space. And where SW might be really fast a plane that can cruise slowly atop the water or jump into the air and haul ass... ST would be the submarines which can travel across the same plane of water, faster and more stable or just duck under water and hide. (well speeds and distances don't match for this example but you get what Im sayin.)
    Last edited by alpinedigital; 09-14-09 at 01:33 PM.

  6. #16706
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinedigital View Post

    1.okay. Trek would kick everyone's asses 99.86% of the time. lol
    after so many shows and series, there's enough 'toys' to help them out of just about any situation.

    2.On a different note...

    If in hyperspace, a ship cannot affect things in normal space... why would things in normal space affect a ship in hyperspace? Like if you set a collision course with a stationary ship and jumped to hyperspace, would you collide with it?
    1. look at it this way, a single artificial quantum singularity is enough to power-up a romulan warbird, vessel that is a likely match for a TNG GCS. creating and maintaining such mini-black holes is tremendous. but if someone can fart them out like a regular wapon, just imagine the power output of their reactor (or whatever they are using). not to mention that each such singularity can pop violently into what is for all practical purposes warp-core breatch (if somewhat lower yealded). that is pretty bad ass even by trek standards.

    2.i am not an expert in SW hyperspace, but i think objects in hyperspace can and do affect normal space objects (they can ramm stuff and colide with interstelar objects). however the effects of such colisions (fatal as they are to the ships) on the general surroundings aredifficult to quantify because of the imaginary element of the object's mass.

  7. #16707
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    1. look at it this way, a single artificial quantum singularity is enough to power-up a romulan warbird, vessel that is a likely match for a TNG GCS. creating and maintaining such mini-black holes is tremendous. but if someone can fart them out like a regular wapon, just imagine the power output of their reactor (or whatever they are using). not to mention that each such singularity can pop violently into what is for all practical purposes warp-core breatch (if somewhat lower yealded). that is pretty bad ass even by trek standards.

    2.i am not an expert in SW hyperspace, but i think objects in hyperspace can and do affect normal space objects (they can ramm stuff and colide with interstelar objects). however the effects of such colisions (fatal as they are to the ships) on the general surroundings aredifficult to quantify because of the imaginary element of the object's mass.
    1. Cool singularity poot reactor power output... probably make some cool fireworks when it explodes, right?
    2. I was hoping you'd sit and ponder some of that hyper sub underspace stuff but whatever.

    For what its worth, if something without a hyperdrive cannot jump to this alternate layer of space, and they cannot exist in this layer of space, then you shouldn't collide with it, OR, the hyperspace deal is crap, its just normal space at a hyper or FTL speed and the whole physics that should apply but can't are the reason they opted for an alternate space idea... OR things that exist in real space also exist in hyperspace without a need for a hyperdrive, and the statement about affecting a ship while in hyperspace wasn't completely accurate.

    The statement about ships not being able to interact with things while in hyperspace... I don't remember the exact statement or details, but as it is stated to be the fastest FTL travel, there should be drawbacks for basing reason to dismiss it as a standard travel (other than the normal lack of real world fundamentals typical of SW) and probably disadvantages to using it. Right off hand... everytime a ship jumps, they consider it 'gone' like, there's always next time. I guess hyperspace isn't at all effective for chasing something...

  8. #16708
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    1. look at it this way, a single artificial quantum singularity is enough to power-up a romulan warbird, vessel that is a likely match for a TNG GCS. creating and maintaining such mini-black holes is tremendous. but if someone can fart them out like a regular wapon, just imagine the power output of their reactor (or whatever they are using). not to mention that each such singularity can pop violently into what is for all practical purposes warp-core breatch (if somewhat lower yealded). that is pretty bad ass even by trek standards.
    Allthough there is a bountyhunter who fires point singularity weapons (thx to the Spirit of the Abyss who hires hit and provides him with the tech) the worldship has a massive singularity canon wich can fire rather rapidly. The power-core of the worldship is a artificial sun witch can even take 6 nova-bombs without even as much as a sparkle or twitch. hows that for poweroutput lol.

  9. #16709
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinedigital View Post
    1. Cool singularity poot reactor power output... probably make some cool fireworks when it explodes, right?
    2. I was hoping you'd sit and ponder some of that hyper sub underspace stuff but whatever.

    For what its worth, if something without a hyperdrive cannot jump to this alternate layer of space, and they cannot exist in this layer of space, then you shouldn't collide with it, OR, the hyperspace deal is crap, its just normal space at a hyper or FTL speed and the whole physics that should apply but can't are the reason they opted for an alternate space idea... OR things that exist in real space also exist in hyperspace without a need for a hyperdrive, and the statement about affecting a ship while in hyperspace wasn't completely accurate.

    The statement about ships not being able to interact with things while in hyperspace... I don't remember the exact statement or details, but as it is stated to be the fastest FTL travel, there should be drawbacks for basing reason to dismiss it as a standard travel (other than the normal lack of real world fundamentals typical of SW) and probably disadvantages to using it. Right off hand... everytime a ship jumps, they consider it 'gone' like, there's always next time. I guess hyperspace isn't at all effective for chasing something...
    1. it does, and the best part of it is once it desides to go boom, there is no stopping it. makes you wonder why the romulans chose to use it. perhaps because it virtualy inhastable?

    2. actually i gave the idea quite some thought back in 1995, i am just not sure if my (and other people's) idea happenes to meet the facts in SW.

    look at it this way. under "normal" conditions no phisical object can reach 1c because the process of acceleration would require an infinite force (because of the ever growing relativistic mass), ergo infinite energry to acomplish it. that means if an objects somehow is propeled to c (light speed) it would poses infinite relativistic mass. however for every speed above 1c the objects relativistic parameters become a square root of a negative number, or in mathematical terms, imainary numbers or numbers you get when you multiply a number by an imaginary 1 or i . so if you presume that the SW hyperdrive somehow "magicaly" transports the object into the i-area (hyperspace) it's mass would turn into "shadow" mass, virtual mass or imaginary mass, however you call it. this shadow mass would generate shadow gravity (which is what the interdictors in SW use to break ships out of hyperspace). now the only thing missing is the link with the real mass and gravity. how do they interact? in math there is no direct interaction betwean imaginary and real numbers unless in a form of complex numbers. but how does one interprate the complex value of a gravity well is beyond me. is there anyone here active that can help?

  10. #16710
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vasago View Post
    Allthough there is a bountyhunter who fires point singularity weapons (thx to the Spirit of the Abyss who hires hit and provides him with the tech) the worldship has a massive singularity canon wich can fire rather rapidly. The power-core of the worldship is a artificial sun witch can even take 6 nova-bombs without even as much as a sparkle or twitch. hows that for poweroutput lol.
    that explains it
    for a minute there i thought a ship was doing this and i was like

  11. #16711
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    2. actually i gave the idea quite some thought back in 1995, i am just not sure if my (and other people's) idea happenes to meet the facts in SW.

    look at it this way. under "normal" conditions...
    That answers the SW part but what about any of the trek methods and techniques like dropping into a warp corridor or underspace or anything, and just sitting inside it to hide? And I dont suppose anyone's discussed slowing to a stop while in hyperspace?

    Also, under normal conditions - do you read that stuff somewhere or think through it yourself to develop theory and discuss it and junk? I'm sure you've heard of a gravity drive, right? Well probably more than you're aware of under other names, but the principles are the same.

    An interesting but barely relevant video here http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9d...-revealed_tech

  12. #16712
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinedigital View Post
    That answers the SW part but what about any of the trek methods and techniques like dropping into a warp corridor or underspace or anything, and just sitting inside it to hide? And I dont suppose anyone's discussed slowing to a stop while in hyperspace?

    Also, under normal conditions - do you read that stuff somewhere or think through it yourself to develop theory and discuss it and junk? I'm sure you've heard of a gravity drive, right? Well probably more than you're aware of under other names, but the principles are the same.
    that stuff i wrote is bascily highschool math and rudimental special relativity. the stuff is standard issue during the senior year where i come from if you pick natural sciences for your classes. or was so 10 years ago. but if you are really interested in complex numbers and special and general relativity there is plenty phisics articles on the net, some of it very comprehandable.

    this just poped up, if my above rantings were/are true, then each object that entered hyperspace generate an "imaginary" mass/gravity then the relation betwean this field and the real gravity fields that suround it would form a complex number. complex numbers can be described as vectors, or dynamics betwean the imaginary and the real component. so when your Milenium Falcon enters hyperspace the computer calculates the path and the required parameters for the imaginary component depending on the real astral objects that it needs to fly near (or within their grav well). so if as you fly on your way, those parameters suddenly change (eighter the real or the imaginary component or both) your hyper-vector would change, resulting in anything from spontanous drop in realspace to a cataclismic scatering of your ship all over the galaxy. or ending up inside a nova. use your imagination. so maybe, just maybe, the hyperdrive is constructed to automaticaly shut down when such unexepeted/uncalculated event ocur. ergo, the use of mass shadows would result in spontanous exits out of hyperspace. same would go for unknown real astrall objects near your trajectory that were not accounted for before. come to think of it, a strong enough imaginary gravity field of adaptible configuration should neautralise any use the hyperdrive by supresing/nullify it's "i" generation capability.

    as for the warp drive based on real life phisics, google for alcubierre drive. it is a very similar concept of what trek dubs warp.

  13. #16713
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    that explains it
    for a minute there i thought a ship was doing this and i was like
    The bountyhunters ship was the size of a ST shuttle. but the difference was that the holes punched through (like completley through) Andromeda were about the size of a car while when the Worldship fire upon the station (last episode season 4) it punched a hole the andromeda could fly through lol)

  14. #16714
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vasago View Post
    The bountyhunters ship was the size of a ST shuttle. but the difference was that the holes punched through (like completley through) Andromeda were about the size of a car while when the Worldship fire upon the station (last episode season 4) it punched a hole the andromeda could fly through lol)
    the best things in life always involve big gaping holes

  15. #16715
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    After reading the end again, finally a clue to what all this scientific stuff is in reference to... crashing or dropping out of hyperspace? Well yeah. They'd need like some serious astrometrics lab data to know where stuff is, so hyperdrive computers know where all the obstacles are. you tell it I need to go from point A to point B, and if some anomoly is along that path that was not compensated for, the drive stalls or the ship crashes, possibly both. lol I'm sure some SW writers tried adding all kinds of detection crap to make it a safe journey but I'd say thats bullshit. I don't buy it, like they could just 'sit' in hyperspace to analyze stuff and invent safeties and precautions and all that. Its basically, "here we are, here's the shit we don't wanna hit, plot us a safe trajectory, and off we go, no turning back, hold your breath and start praying... in fact, stand perfectly still, I dont want too much weight shifting around, you might accidentally steer us off course or some shit"

    So that much I can accept, and how the drive works is clear enough, but I was pondering hyper'space' itself, which would be completely theoretical fiction except for logically disproving how lame it is in the first place. First, what IS it that makes hyper 'space' faster than normal 'space'. For instance, traveling low altitude vs high altitude, less wind resistance, a logical reason its faster. I guess I'll start by researching again what underspace, wormholes, corridors and conduits are... which likely have a clear reason why they are faster. I simply don't think I'll find an understanding if there's even any suggestion that hyperspace is at all different or faster or its just some term referring to the method of travel.
    Last edited by alpinedigital; 09-16-09 at 04:22 PM.

  16. #16716
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quantum Slipstream Drive: "In its first test by the Voyager crew, the Dauntless traveled fifteen light years in barely five minutes; this translates into about 1.6 million times the speed of light."
    Transwarp conduits — regions in subspace that facilitate travel at velocities up to 20 times those of conventional warp drives. -wiki
    How's this in comparison to Star Wars giddy-up speeds? ...anyway

    The Slipstream is a narrowly-focused, directed warp field that is initiated by manipulating the fabric of the space-time continuum at the quantum level. It works by focusing a quantum field through a deflector dish to generate massive changes in local space curvature; this creates a subspace tunnel, which is projected in front of the vessel. Once a ship has entered this tunnel, the forces inside propel it at incredible speed.

    Transwarp Conduit: Artificial construct that could be used to achieve faster-than-light travel, in a similar fashion to a wormhole.

    Underspace: A network of subspace corridors that extend through a large area of the Delta Quadrant.

    So are there any others Im missing? I think probably. But again, I still wonder how much of normal space matter extends into subspace, wormholes, and conduits, and if they have to worry about obstacles and junk like hyperspace travel. Another thing I am unsure of is what navigational limitations there are. 3rd, how direct are the routes, like if its anything like freeways that have exits near known inhabited systems, popular landmarks, and weigh stations... or if they just put signs along the way for every rest stop and camp ground. LOL

  17. #16717
    Troper In Training
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    Really can't say much on hyperspace and it's navigational routes as most of the warsies I know of constantly contradict themselves. One side saying it is another dimensional realm and the other saying it is just a term for how the universe looks like at superluminal velocities. If it is the latter, how the hell do they overcome the laws of relativity? Im just a high school student but I am fully aware that unless they are magically reducing mass or time, they can't exceed the speed of light in a physical plane. And they say that warp is crazier than that.

    As far as I can tell with warp, it overcomes relativity in a similar way to the alcubierre drive by manipulating space time in a limited way to create a warp field. I believe that ST's drive is only different as it uses subspace as a intermediate medium for spatial manipulation while the alcubierre drive acts upon space directly.

  18. #16718
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexarc View Post
    unless they are magically reducing mass or time, they can't exceed the speed of light in a physical plane. And they say that warp is crazier than that.
    Thats kinda why I was saying if its a different 'space' where perhaps the physics might differ slightly, or allowed for the function of some sort of protective field to form and limit the effects of normal space physics. I dunno, anything that gives believability to the whole hyperspace idea. Kinda like how the aliens in The Abyss were able to 'fly' through water much faster than any earth vessel, and explained the need for such a wicked paintjob. LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexarc View Post
    As far as I can tell with warp, it overcomes relativity in a similar way to the alcubierre drive by manipulating space time in a limited way to create a warp field. I believe that ST's drive is only different as it uses subspace as a intermediate medium for spatial manipulation while the alcubierre drive acts upon space directly.
    "Warp drive is a technology that allows space travel at faster-than-light speeds. This is accomplished by generating warp fields to form a subspace bubble that envelops the starship, distorting the local spacetime continuum and moving the starship at velocities that exceed the speed of light."

    Oh, but what it doesnt say, (unless somebody purposely left it out,) is you have to use a Stablizing Audio Inversifier so everything won't sound like a cassette tape playing in fast forward, and also a Permeating Dark Force Repulsor Array so Vader cant 'felt his pressence.'

  19. #16719
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinedigital View Post
    1....After reading the end again, finally a clue to what all this scientific stuff is in reference to... crashing or dropping out of hyperspace? Well yeah.......

    2....... but I was pondering hyper'space' itself, which would be completely theoretical fiction except for logically disproving how lame it is in the first place. First, what IS it that makes hyper 'space' faster than normal 'space'. .... I simply don't think I'll find an understanding if there's even any suggestion that hyperspace is at all different or faster or its just some term referring to the method of travel.
    1. in the very shortest possible way of explanation yes, that post was ment to try and provide an explanation of why and how hyperspace travel gets interdicted.

    2. actually if my ranting is correct, then the very nature of hyperspace or c+ motion induced space is by very nature superluminal. not that just an object that enters it goes past light speed, but that object once pass the magical barrier that is 1c finds it more easy to go faster then slower (i.e. firing your thrusters would slow you down). there are other even more kinky implications, some of which require more effort to explain (such as the superluminal flow of time) but i do not even try to go there.

    as for the logic of the problem, it is not any more "impossible" or contradictory then the warp or Alcubierre drive. all require some magical
    trinket in order to work. hyperdrive requires means of getting past 1c, warp requires FTL transfer of information within the field geometry itself.

  20. #16720
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    That's so Emma & Julia...

    I wasn't really concerned with the speed involved or how you can get to C+ whatever equals G... or whatever alphanumeric mumbo jumbo fits. I just wanted to know if this is an alternate space with any different physics or if hyperspace is just a term used for this FTL travel speed. We already know the means of achieving FTL is fictional or theoretical. The reason for bringing it up is simply to get an understanding of the advantages of this method over warp, slipstream, and subspace. If hyperspace is an alternate 'theortical or fictional' realm of space, then my question is about why they say they can't interact with ships on normal space and vice versa.

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