Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

i only know one canon fact about storage of torpedoes and that is that they are kept unarmed (no warhead) so as to explain why the whole ship does not gets turned into stardust when the torpedo bay is hit. unfortunately there is no canon mentioning of the arming/loading mechanism imployed. some speculate that the torpedo casing is just the delivery method and that anti-matter is injected during launch from the ship's own supply while others claim it is inserted in some form of containers before launch by the loading crew/mechanism.

as to the total amount of casing/warhead ammount i went for about 12000 torpedoes based on my own estemates. if a GCS has some 250-300 torpedoes when fully loaded and the Constitution refit nad at least 150 (not sure about that, i'll have to check) then the number of torpedoes a Star Base should have at all times in reserve should equal for at least on full resupply of all the ships that operate in its sector under normal circumstances. if the average torpedo load for a ship is 200 torpedoes (more for torpedo based platforms (like Akira, Nebula) less for light cruisers, escorts (Defiant, Intrepid); and the average number of ships per sector is 40-100 (roughly guessed from the number of ships they usually muster in a hurry or operate together in war), in this case i went for 60 then an average star base should be able to provide some 10000-15000 torpedoes for those ships. some stations are obviously bigger (like SB74), some are smaller and this probably signifies the amount of ships that falls under their care.

how are they stored? the photon torpedo casing is 210 cm long and 76 x 45 cm across. that means to store 1000 of those in a 10x10x10 packs you'd need a container the size of 21x7.6x4.5 meters. if torpedo transfer is performed by cargo transporters then there is in fact lots of space for storage. i'm sure that even some larger ships if modified with lots of empty space could have enough internal volume for more then 15 such container rooms. what i am more concerned with is the warhead storage if that is the method of providing antimatter ammo.

As far as I can tell, they are armed once they enter the tube (which accounts for 80% of the reload time of the tubes) from the ships main stores, which are replenished via the Bussard Collectors. Makes sense that they woould be able to synthisize their own fuel

[Kittamaru]

Yes i saw it

but you must bare in mind that Shinzon wanted picard alive for his blood.
so we can asume those torps where at a low yield. If six torps can take out you warpcore six more full yield torps should be enough to blow you to smitariens.

Yes, but in the end he didn't care if Picard lived or died, and he kept using the same weapons

[antaran_1979]

why should they have to store casings ? they could just replicate them.
as a torps propultion and payload uses the matter/antimatter they put in them. and i surely agree with your concernes about the warhead storage.

replicating is possible, though we seldom if ever see it done. i can again only speculate on the topic. ships don't replicate them. most of all Voyager didn't and they needed them. i guess the replicators use up lots of energy, more as the objects you replicate are larger. a facility in orbit or on a planet/oid might have more available fuel or supply chains to do this, while ships have to think of efficiency. also even replicating takes time and requires active replicators. resuplying ships with torpedoes is often a task that requires expediceous action. like simply beaming several hundred torpedoes in the storage.

the warheads on the other hand are a different story. i doubt you could store them as you would beer cans. i am in favor of the theory that antimatter is injected from the ship's own supply, but if that is not the case, then all those warheads need to be placed somewhere. and that might include over 300 antimatter warheads. antimatter warheads are nothing alike nuclear or thermonuclear warheads. the later are not prone to self igniting like because of the critical mass isue. intimatter warheads on the other hand in their very nature are very volatile. antimatter containement is a tricky ssubject. we have all seen what happened when U.S.S. Odyssey was rammed near it's antimatter pods in the deflector dish area.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...oID=1083160709

in most battles ships don't explode spontaniously like that when under fire so i think that there are no antimatter warheads stored on the ships. at least not fully operational or charged

[Kittamaru]

unlike Kitt i have a different theory that both the blue and the green blobs are disruptors. blue are light-medium guns and green are heavy. i don't see why disruptors can't be fired in warp when phasers can. i base this on the fact that later on when Shinzon gets mad and uses all weapons against E-E there is burst of yellowish dot-like objects that hit the E's bridge and cause a red shirt to do some space walking without am EVA suit :P

Can you find a video of this? If I missed that I do appologize, but I don't recall any yellow dots being fired *ponders*

As for why Disruptors can't be fired at warp while phasers can:

Phasers utilize an ACB-jacketed beam device to allow them to fire thru the warp field. The problem stems from the fact that inside and outside the warp field are two different constants. As the phaser beam passes thru the field, it would instantly fall out of warp speed, back to exactly C. As a result, the longer phaser beams (which aren't short pulses) would scatter. The ACB-jacketed beam device, in essence, allows the phaser to "capture" a part of the warp field and contain it, letting it ride out to the target. However, this comes at a nearly 30% drop in damage potential.

Dirsuptors, on the other hand, do not have a device such as this, and as far as I can read, they have not been able to be used at warp due to the same issue of dropping to C once outside the warp field.

[Kittamaru]

why should they have to store casings ? they could just replicate them.
as a torps propultion and payload uses the matter/antimatter they put in them. and i surely agree with your concernes about the warhead storage.

Problem with not having spare cases is the power needed to replicate something complex like that - the guidance systems and other things *shrugs* Taking that power away from combat systems during a battle is probably not a good idea.

[antaran_1979]

Can you find a video of this? If I missed that I do appologize, but I don't recall any yellow dots being fired *ponders*

As for why Disruptors can't be fired at warp while phasers can:

Phasers utilize an ACB-jacketed beam device to allow them to fire thru the warp field. The problem stems from the fact that inside and outside the warp field are two different constants. As the phaser beam passes thru the field, it would instantly fall out of warp speed, back to exactly C. As a result, the longer phaser beams (which aren't short pulses) would scatter. The ACB-jacketed beam device, in essence, allows the phaser to "capture" a part of the warp field and contain it, letting it ride out to the target. However, this comes at a nearly 30% drop in damage potential.

Dirsuptors, on the other hand, do not have a device such as this, and as far as I can read, they have not been able to be used at warp due to the same issue of dropping to C once outside the warp field.

here in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeYrkdyW2Cw
time index 2:00

as for the FTL problem with the energy weapons i am aware of it. i just thought that maybe the Reamans found a way to compensate or implement a similar solution.

[antaran_1979]

Do recall that the Ent-E uses some of the largest, most powerful warp coils in StarFleet, giving it unprecedeted speed and agility. It also has the most powerful warp CORE fitted to a ship in StarFleet.

Without that core, all the emergency power systems went online, and secondary systems went offline - replicators were rationed, holodecks went offline, things like that. They dumped all the power they could into combat systems

BTW, ST ships have suprisingly strong hulls considering their lack of thickness. in the earlier video the GCS was rammed by a Dominion bug ship that got fully destroyed in the process and the crater that this caused was way smaller then the ship that caused it, not to mention the effects of the explosion that should have followed. and Dominion is supposed to have stronger armour then the federation. i guess most of the hull stringht in UFP comes from the ISF use.

[Nasor]

Dirsuptors, on the other hand, do not have a device such as this, and as far as I can read, they have not been able to be used at warp due to the same issue of dropping to C once outside the warp field.

I'm pretty sure that in "ST Nemesis" the Scimitar fires disruptors at the Enterprise while at warp (and cloaked, for that matter).
Edit: Never mind, I see someone beat me to it.

[Kittamaru]

here in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeYrkdyW2Cw
time index 2:00

as for the FTL problem with the energy weapons i am aware of it. i just thought that maybe the Reamans found a way to compensate or implement a similar solution.

I... don't know what those are... I sincerely doubt they're photon torpedoes... maybe heavy disruptors? The way they exit the aperature makes me think they're a disruptor based weapon, since they don't all exit on the same path, which a torpedo leaving the tube would have to do.

I never noticed before that they were yellow - sorry, partial colourblindness is a bitch. Freeze-framing that shot and the shots of the other weapons, i can see now the distinct difference... *ponders*

I dunno what to make of that... the Scimitar should only have two weapons systems... Disruptors, both Beam and Pulsed versions, and Photons...

[Kittamaru]

Okay, here we go:

Scimitar - http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymai...1d9c7ad1e4dbd4

Enterprise-E - http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymai...p?fedsovereign

[Nexarc]

the scimitar may have fired disruptors at the ent-e. Disruptors, although less efficient than phasers, can be more powerful in brute strength:
ditl's disruptor page.

Funny enough, I believe this is the site that has the fanfic Portal. The one that gives ST a giant upperhand with SW just being pitiful.

[Nexarc]

Problem with not having spare cases is the power needed to replicate something complex like that - the guidance systems and other things *shrugs* Taking that power away from combat systems during a battle is probably not a good idea.

most likely there are empty cases ready to be armed at a moments notice. If there is the time and the need, more can be replicated shipboard, but at the expence of your fuel for the replicator energy and warheads..

[Nexarc]

Found the Fanfic: Portal: Chapter 1

[Kittamaru]

Found the Fanfic: Portal: Chapter 1

*grins* That's... yeah, that's about how I imagine it. And it makes sense... THAT is why the rebels learned so much and became such a threat so fast - the Federation was helping them

[Nasor]

I... don't know what those are... I sincerely doubt they're photon torpedoes... maybe heavy disruptors?

According to the script, they are disruptors. Everyone who has transporters knows how to make an ACB, so if those are what's necessary to fire beam weapons at warp, then I don't know why we wouldn't expect everyone to be able to do it.

[Kittamaru]

According to the script, they are disruptors. Everyone who has transporters knows how to make an ACB, so if those are what's necessary to fire beam weapons at warp, then I don't know why we wouldn't expect everyone to be able to do it.

The thing is, Disruptors and Phasers are two very different things - the ACB Jacket follows around the Phaser beam - I dont' know if that can be done with disruptors, though I guess it could be done *shrugs*

[antaran_1979]

I... don't know what those are... I sincerely doubt they're photon torpedoes... maybe heavy disruptors? The way they exit the aperature makes me think they're a disruptor based weapon, since they don't all exit on the same path, which a torpedo leaving the tube would have to do.

I never noticed before that they were yellow - sorry, partial colourblindness is a bitch. Freeze-framing that shot and the shots of the other weapons, i can see now the distinct difference... *ponders*

I dunno what to make of that... the Scimitar should only have two weapons systems... Disruptors, both Beam and Pulsed versions, and Photons...

don't be so hard on your self, you need to be a fanatic tactical engagement and military fan (yours truly) to wach combat scenes repeatedly hour after hour, trying to find every fault and take notice of every detail

maybe the yellow blobs are torpedoes after all if they are fired from a series of multiple one launch tubes mounted in linear pattern on the front central bulkheads?

my theory about the blue blobs being lighter and green being heavier disruptors, comes from the fact that Shinzon used the blue ones up untill the moment he thought he could disable E-E. when the warbirds came to help, he started using the green ones on them he took them out very fast. some argue that the warbirs had weaker shielding but i don't think it was just that. the blue blobs hit the E-E multiple times (at least 6 in the opening scenes) and they caused neglectible damage), while just 3 were enough to cut off a wing from one Norexan, and the Valdore was taken out with just 2 shots after they lost their shields. maybe Snizon had more intimate knowlidge on them and knew where to fire, but still, the difference in damage taking was just too great to be a coincidance IMO. besides, usualy in ST the torpedoes are the list articualted weapons used, so i don' think one would use them to disable a target.
later on, when it was to the death with E-E the Scimitar used all weapons against it.

[antaran_1979]

According to the script, they are disruptors. Everyone who has transporters knows how to make an ACB, so if those are what's necessary to fire beam weapons at warp, then I don't know why we wouldn't expect everyone to be able to do it.

do you happen to have a link from the script? Nemesis is one of my most hated ST movies, (right after the newest movie), but the battle with the Scimitar is one of the best space combat scenes in SF history

[alpinedigital]

"A multikenetic neutronic mine... 5 million isoton yield."

"An explosive that size, could effect an entire star system."

"Correct. The shockwave will disperse the nanoprobes over a radius of 5 lightyears."

wholy smokes... when the Borg have their back against the wall, they bring the heavy artillery!

[antaran_1979]

"A multikenetic neutronic mine... 5 million isoton yield."

"An explosive that size, could effect an entire star system."

"Correct. The shockwave will disperse the nanoprobes over a radius of 5 lightyears."

wholy smokes... when the Borg have their back against the wall, they bring the heavy artillery!

that is basicly the destructve radius of a star going nova. funny how people fail to mention it in SW VS ST debates.