Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Badnews]

It's only thing to call something canon, but when your own canon violates itself in such an ugly manner you risk becoming the laughing stock of sci-fi.

Kinda like how the books, comics, movies, and illustrated guides for Star Wars constantly contradict?

[Badnews]

...Since the Federation is stupide...

Way to go, let me guess, McCafe?

[Badnews]

Yes, but in Star Trek there is a plausible reason for the lack of effect of phaser fire vs non-targets... Phasers have an integrated targetting system. Proof of this is that A) it's mentioned in the series and B) you see the "beam" fired at up to a 20* variation from the direction it's pointed. It makes sense it wouldn't discharge a full beam if contact with the target isn't made

And yes... SW Blaster Rifles have a stun feature... we never see anything less than "OMG SHOOT IT" from the shipborn weapons

Well, to be honest, I think the one-time "stun setting" in Star Wars is just a plot device. How else would they have been able to capture the princess? And why haven't the Imperials bothered to use "stun setting" since ANH...or previously in the other movies?

Did she suddenly become less valuable as Vader's captive when she was fleeing the Death Star? Or again in Cloud City? Or on Endor? I don't remember any stun shots then. I guess it doesn't matter when stormtroopers can't even shoot a giant man-bear-pig standing in the open with a screaming golden droid strapped to his back.

That reminds me of the TOS episode when Kirk is on a gangster planet, and as a show of force, uses the Enterprises ship phasers to stun the whole area around the building. Or was it the whole city? I don't remember.

[Kittamaru]

Well, to be honest, I think the one-time "stun setting" in Star Wars is just a plot device. How else would they have been able to capture the princess? And why haven't the Imperials bothered to use "stun setting" since ANH...or previously in the other movies?

Did she suddenly become less valuable as Vader's captive when she was fleeing the Death Star? Or again in Cloud City? Or on Endor? I don't remember any stun shots then. I guess it doesn't matter when stormtroopers can't even shoot a giant man-bear-pig standing in the open with a screaming golden droid strapped to his back.

That reminds me of the TOS episode when Kirk is on a gangster planet, and as a show of force, uses the Enterprises ship phasers to stun the whole area around the building. Or was it the whole city? I don't remember.

*grins* If I remember it was the whole damned city... and thank you! I forgot about that... that's some SERIOUS energy-control... being able to stun people with a ship-board phaser... heh, I always did like that episode

[sonar_eit]

I am not going to get technical (and popping in late in the discussion) but I am siding with the Force on this one. Light dark doesn't matter stop the captain from firing or mind choke him, oh well. Thought of voting for Farscape at first, just for the wormhole weapon but the Force will always prevail.

[Kittamaru]

I am not going to get technical (and popping in late in the discussion) but I am siding with the Force on this one. Light dark doesn't matter stop the captain from firing or mind choke him, oh well. Thought of voting for Farscape at first, just for the wormhole weapon but the Force will always prevail.

Not really... I mean, if the force was that strong, why didn't Luke do something like that to the Death Star 2? Why didn't Vader just mind-fuck Han to capture the falcon? How come they couldn't just make Leia turn around in the blockade runner and come aboard willingly?

Sad fact is, the Force isn't all that great 99% of the time

[Nasor]

Well, to be honest, I think the one-time "stun setting" in Star Wars is just a plot device. How else would they have been able to capture the princess? And why haven't the Imperials bothered to use "stun setting" since ANH...or previously in the other movies?

Did she suddenly become less valuable as Vader's captive when she was fleeing the Death Star? Or again in Cloud City? Or on Endor? I don't remember any stun shots then.

I would guess that at Cloud City and Endor the imperial troops didn't even know who they were shooting at anyway - it was just some damn rebel.

Edit: but I agree that soldiers not being able to hit what they aim at is a big problem with movies in general, and scifi specifically. It's not just starwars, there are plenty of examples of trek characters not being able to hit things with their phasers that should have been really, really easy to hit.

In the real world if you're 50 feet from a soldier and he decides to shoot you, he's probably going to hit you. Not guaranteed, of course, but it's likely. If five soldiers all decide to shoot you, it's a pretty safe bet that you ARE going to get hit. But in movies no one thinks anything of it when the good guys run around being shot at by bad guys for ten minutes without anyone getting hit.

[150dpi]

Not really... I mean, if the force was that strong, why didn't Luke do something like that to the Death Star 2? Why didn't Vader just mind-fuck Han to capture the falcon? How come they couldn't just make Leia turn around in the blockade runner and come aboard willingly?

Sad fact is, the Force isn't all that great 99% of the time

I agree. When Luke and the rebels attempted to land on the surface with a captured shuttle to disable the shields protecting the Death Star, Vader could only "feel" or "sense" something and couldn't even pinpoint that it was Luke on that shuttle.

[antaran_1979]

Kitt? don't mind me asking, but are you creating profiles just to keep the topic alive?

[Kittamaru]

Kitt? don't mind me asking, but are you creating profiles just to keep the topic alive?

Nope, I only have this one profile Have an admin check the IP addresses if you don't believe me

[Lord Vasago]

Not really... I mean, if the force was that strong, why didn't Luke do something like that to the Death Star 2? Why didn't Vader just mind-fuck Han to capture the falcon? How come they couldn't just make Leia turn around in the blockade runner and come aboard willingly?

Sad fact is, the Force isn't all that great 99% of the time

Well if you can drive a podracer a meter from the ground, choke someone on a other spacecraft, fight on lava without looking like the tinman from oz, move a semi-sunken x-wing, rip structures from a wall, hold heavy stuff in place so it won't crush someone, use sword at tremendous speed only a few millimeters from someonce skin without harming them, kill a whole village of sandpeople on your own. guide people even when your dead, hmmmmmm i find that pretty great don't ya think?

[Lord Vasago]

I agree. When Luke and the rebels attempted to land on the surface with a captured shuttle to disable the shields protecting the Death Star, Vader could only "feel" or "sense" something and couldn't even pinpoint that it was Luke on that shuttle.

simply because it are emotions that are sensed. Yoda could sense that anakin was killing in rage on tatoine ffs and he was on corusant.

and in my opinion (don't quote me on that) Vader has trouble with luke because he is his son, so deep down he cares for him. that would trouble his vision i think. Don't forget that luke was the trigger for Vader to overcome the darkside and turn back into Anakin.

[Lord Vasago]

I would guess that at Cloud City and Endor the imperial troops didn't even know who they were shooting at anyway - it was just some damn rebel.

Edit: but I agree that soldiers not being able to hit what they aim at is a big problem with movies in general, and scifi specifically. It's not just starwars, there are plenty of examples of trek characters not being able to hit things with their phasers that should have been really, really easy to hit.

In the real world if you're 50 feet from a soldier and he decides to shoot you, he's probably going to hit you. Not guaranteed, of course, but it's likely. If five soldiers all decide to shoot you, it's a pretty safe bet that you ARE going to get hit. But in movies no one thinks anything of it when the good guys run around being shot at by bad guys for ten minutes without anyone getting hit.

maybe you should give some examples to Kitt when they missfire in ST. so he finally understands that phasers aren't all that bling bling he thinks them to be.

[Lord Vasago]

Well, to be honest, I think the one-time "stun setting" in Star Wars is just a plot device. How else would they have been able to capture the princess? And why haven't the Imperials bothered to use "stun setting" since ANH...or previously in the other movies?

Did she suddenly become less valuable as Vader's captive when she was fleeing the Death Star? Or again in Cloud City? Or on Endor? I don't remember any stun shots then. I guess it doesn't matter when stormtroopers can't even shoot a giant man-bear-pig standing in the open with a screaming golden droid strapped to his back.

That reminds me of the TOS episode when Kirk is on a gangster planet, and as a show of force, uses the Enterprises ship phasers to stun the whole area around the building. Or was it the whole city? I don't remember.

offcourse it is a plot device as is lot in ST.

so why does only kirk use the ability to stun a whole city ? that technique would saved picard a lot of time is a lot of situations.

[Enterprise-D]

offcourse it is a plot device as is lot in ST.

so why does only kirk use the ability to stun a whole city ? that technique would saved picard a lot of time is a lot of situations.

When exactly would a citywide stun blast have been useful to Picard? (Recall Kirk used this against a civilization that had no energy weapons - and thus no defenses against even low powered phasers).

[Nasor]

maybe you should give some examples to Kitt when they missfire in ST. so he finally understands that phasers aren't all that bling bling he thinks them to be.

Off the top of my head, there's a scene in Nemesis where Worf misses a reman dude who is like 10 feet away. They had him miss as an excuse to have worf get into a hand-to-hand fight with the guy, but I remember thinking when I saw it that worf obviously needs more time at the range.

As for phasers, the ST writers were hopelessly inconsistent. They often talk in TNG about how phasers are supposed to be these awesome weapons that can vaporize buildings etc, and they are sometimes used as a convenient way to vaporize tunnels through rocks or whatever when the writers don't feel like coming up with the more creative solution...but we never see them actually used that way in combat. Every time a phaser fight actually starts, everyone just jumps behind a rock or something and pops up to fire every once in a while. We never see anyone look at an enemy hiding behind a rock, laugh, turn the power up on his phaser, and just vaporize the whole damn rock plus the guy behind it.

[Kittamaru]

Well if you can drive a podracer a meter from the ground, choke someone on a other spacecraft, fight on lava without looking like the tinman from oz, move a semi-sunken x-wing, rip structures from a wall, hold heavy stuff in place so it won't crush someone, use sword at tremendous speed only a few millimeters from someonce skin without harming them, kill a whole village of sandpeople on your own. guide people even when your dead, hmmmmmm i find that pretty great don't ya think?

Problems with this, and I'll elaborate:

Podracer Driving - Computer assisted controls, like we use today on modern Jet Fighters
Choking others - basic telekinesis / Tractor Beams
Fighting on lava - personal shields
Moving X-Wing - Tractor Beam
Ripping things from walls - Telekinesis / Tractor Beams
Holding stuff in place - again, Telekinesis / tractor beams
Supreme Swordsmanship - Modern swordsmasters are able to do magnificent feats without "powers"
Killing sand people - MOAB
Guiding people when you're dead - holographic technology

Nothing that couldn't be done with technology... heh...

Now, try to explain some of the things Q has done...

Moving a starship thousands of light years against it's will without any detectable form of propulsion, energy, or anomaly of any sort.

Killing someone by freezing them solid, then bringing them back to life.

Instantaneous transportation of a person to the exterior of a starship WITHOUT their death without the use of force fields, life support systems, or any form of detectable HEV suit.

Spontaniously changing the gravitational constant of the universe

The ability to travel thru 3 parallel dimensions at the same time to guide a single man to the salvation of mankinds birth... without causing innumerable parallaxes...

[Kittamaru]

offcourse it is a plot device as is lot in ST.

so why does only kirk use the ability to stun a whole city ? that technique would saved picard a lot of time is a lot of situations.

The reason is simple:

Kirks form of diplomacy is a BIG ASS weapon and a smile.

Picards form of diplomacy is actual diplomacy

[Kittamaru]

Off the top of my head, there's a scene in Nemesis where Worf misses a reman dude who is like 10 feet away. They had him miss as an excuse to have worf get into a hand-to-hand fight with the guy, but I remember thinking when I saw it that worf obviously needs more time at the range.

As for phasers, the ST writers were hopelessly inconsistent. They often talk in TNG about how phasers are supposed to be these awesome weapons that can vaporize buildings etc, and they are sometimes used as a convenient way to vaporize tunnels through rocks or whatever when the writers don't feel like coming up with the more creative solution...but we never see them actually used that way in combat. Every time a phaser fight actually starts, everyone just jumps behind a rock or something and pops up to fire every once in a while. We never see anyone look at an enemy hiding behind a rock, laugh, turn the power up on his phaser, and just vaporize the whole damn rock plus the guy behind it.

Actually, we do every now and then... but often times the idea is to reduce collateral damage Remember - Starfleet's motto is to preserve life when possible... even if it's the enemies life

[Lord Vasago]

When exactly would a citywide stun blast have been useful to Picard? (Recall Kirk used this against a civilization that had no energy weapons - and thus no defenses against even low powered phasers).

well in the movie on the planet that juvenates his occupants (forgot the titel) the foo's could have used their phasers to stun the whole population instead of sending those probethings to transport them.