Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Enterprise-D]

BS, way BS. We know from the e[pisode where the Borg kidnapped Seven of Nine that the Borg do not become immune to weapon attacks but more efficent in shielding.

Somewhat inaccurate. While Borg unprotected biological components remain vulnerable to weapons fire, their bodies are protected by shielding which protect each soldier to 100% of energy weapons fire - after the shielding system adapts to the weapon entirely (eg. modulating phasers would probably get three effective shots before Borg shielding systems render them completely useless).

I'd say that's pretty immune, although the immunity is not generated by the Borg body.

They have superior energy generation and shielding capabilities to even a pair of GCS class vessels. So one on one or even two on one the Borg cube wins. Now In First Contact we see that 2 dozen Federation ships had the Cube all but destroyed. Even without the arraval of the Enterprise E they likely would have won with the loss of one or two more vessels. Hell, the only reason the Cube one Wolf 357 was becuase of the tactical genius of Picard.

By the time First Contact had rolled around, the Federation is completely aware of the Borg and know how gain some profitable weapons fire on 'em.

Even so, the Cube was hardly in danger before Picard's arrival; you were probably taken in by the minor explosions on the Cube. Mere scratches that would have been auto-repaired in short order (historical Borg behaviour). Picard was the one who knew exactly where to fire upon the Cube to destroy it by virtue of overhearing the Borg via the lingering neural link of Locutus.

Further to that, Wolf 359 was not only credited to Locutus. I myself was hardly a threat to a standard non-Locutus Cube (as seen when Q first introduced them to the Borg). Had the Borg not had Locutus, they would have still cut thru Federation defenses at Wolf 359. Indeed, they lost because of Locutus...since he was an effective hack for Data to stall the Cube.


I'd decided to reply to TW's attempt to de-power the Borg (I gather that was the goal). I wont address the rest of the post...it'd be like beating the bones of a long dead horse (right Kitt lol)...

[Kittamaru]

Ain't that the truth Ent-D XD

I can't wait to see the new trek movie... LOL!

[fedr808]

I still love the logic of the empire.

They got the DS destroyed because of a small two meter hole barely big enough for two proton torpedos.

So what did they do?

They made one big enough for several ships.

[TW Scott]

All but destroyed... are you fucking joking? That fleet of 2 dozen federation ships started as what, 50????? And how many operational ships did we see when Picard co-ordinated the attack? I counted, at most, a dozen...

I hardly say that was "mostly destroyed"... and your ISD is a POS and you know it. PROVE that 128 megatons is a "serious threat" and PROVE that you can fire 200 gigaton weapons at all...

Oh, yeah, you CAN'T! Because your full of CRAP

I can. I have again and again

Honestly 200 gigtons for a ISD Turbolaser is canon fact. There is absolutely nothing in the movies that disputes this. In fact the only questionable shots in ESB were made by what were obviously Light Point Defense cannons.

As for 128 Megatons, that is assuming a Quantum torpedo gets 200% effiecency form it's M/AM warhead.

However if we go by observations of Star Trek shows and films the Photon Torpedo is much less powerful. Hell Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were not 20 yards from a direct Photon Torpedo hit.

[TW Scott]

I still love the logic of the empire.

They got the DS destroyed because of a small two meter hole barely big enough for two proton torpedos.

So what did they do?

They made one big enough for several ships.

Actually you will note that the second Death Star was not completed yet. The pathways to the core were likely for construction and supply vessels. When complete they might have still ben there but behing blast door thick enough to repel ramming ISDs and also likely to have several sield barrier in palce in case of penetration.

Palapatine's grand mistake was not letting the base be completed before he leaked the data. If he had not been so over confident,he might have even set up a flase weak point or two. As it was he tried to use an uncompleted battlestation as the bait for his trap.

[fedr808]

Actually you will note that the second Death Star was not completed yet. The pathways to the core were likely for construction and supply vessels. When complete they might have still ben there but behing blast door thick enough to repel ramming ISDs and also likely to have several sield barrier in palce in case of penetration.

Palapatine's grand mistake was not letting the base be completed before he leaked the data. If he had not been so over confident,he might have even set up a flase weak point or two. As it was he tried to use an uncompleted battlestation as the bait for his trap.

Yah but following that line of logic, baiting for an means you need good bait and good protection. I find it so hard to believe that none of these improal geniuses thought it was a good idea to let them go unguarded

[fedr808]

I can. I have again and again

Honestly 200 gigtons for a ISD Turbolaser is canon fact. There is absolutely nothing in the movies that disputes this. In fact the only questionable shots in ESB were made by what were obviously Light Point Defense cannons.

As for 128 Megatons, that is assuming a Quantum torpedo gets 200% effiecency form it's M/AM warhead.

However if we go by observations of Star Trek shows and films the Photon Torpedo is much less powerful. Hell Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were not 20 yards from a direct Photon Torpedo hit.

Actually this means that40k's still in buiseness, if a one kilometer ship can pump 200 gigatons of power, imagine what an eight kilometer ship can do

[Kittamaru]

I can. I have again and again

Honestly 200 gigtons for a ISD Turbolaser is canon fact. There is absolutely nothing in the movies that disputes this. In fact the only questionable shots in ESB were made by what were obviously Light Point Defense cannons.

As for 128 Megatons, that is assuming a Quantum torpedo gets 200% effiecency form it's M/AM warhead.

However if we go by observations of Star Trek shows and films the Photon Torpedo is much less powerful. Hell Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were not 20 yards from a direct Photon Torpedo hit.

*chuckles*

Okay, give me one point in the movie to indicate a 200 gigaton Turbolaser Blast... I can give you PLENTY to disprove it... like the fact that it can't vaporize a tiny ship like the Falcon...

As for the 128 M/T... again, coming from what? Are you an expert in theoretical sciences and quantum mechanics? You have NO IDEA what a zero-point vacuum detonation could do, do you...

And yes, a Photon Torpedo can have almost no effect... as stated ON FUCKING SCREEN:

"This is a photonic torpedo. It can knock the comms array off a shuttlecraft without scratching the paint, or put a five kilometer wide crater into an asteroid, and everything in between"...

And that's an OLD PHOTONIC TORPEDO... think of what a modern Photon Mk VVIII can do...

[Kittamaru]

Actually this means that40k's still in buiseness, if a one kilometer ship can pump 200 gigatons of power, imagine what an eight kilometer ship can do

Again, mate, size doesn't matter at all...

the reason a quantum torpedo is so vastly more powerful than Scott can wrap his mind around is simple:

It's not just matter+antimatter=Boom... the matter and antimatter components intermix in a zero-point clean vacuum... and according to theoretical sciences, a vacuum detonation has near-limitless potential... yes, in theory you could blow up the earth with a light bulb. The physics behind it are mind boggling... I've seen the equations - they made my brain HURT in ways I didn't think it could. No, I couldn't make any sense of them - good luck trying to do so without a doctorate in physics and theoretical sciences...

my point is, though, that a q-torp is more than just a simple explosive warhead like Scott seems to think... much like the phaser, it's more complex than that... and that's what gives it it's power...

and that's why a TurboLaser is a pathetic excuse for a weapon compared to the phaser arrays of even a bloody Constellation class starship...

[Kittamaru]

Now, I bid adieu - sadly for me my own computer just died for the last time (yes... it's died many times before and I always managed to bring it back from the brink)... I believe either my CPU itself or my MoBo has just bit the dust... and as it's over 6 years old, there is no point in trying to replace parts to revive it... sadly, with my wedding coming up in 3 weeks... I don't have the money to replace it. I hope to be able to stay up to date via my cell phone (which is how I'm typing this now) but it is impractical and somewhat difficult to manage as I can only see parts of the screen at once...

so if I'm not here... please, keep the tin foil hat close at hand in case Scott starts spouting more of his bullshit and Ent-D isn't around to refute it for you

[antaran_1979]

Actually you will note that the second Death Star was not completed yet. The pathways to the core were likely for construction and supply vessels. When complete they might have still ben there but behing blast door thick enough to repel ramming ISDs and also likely to have several sield barrier in palce in case of penetration.

Palapatine's grand mistake was not letting the base be completed before he leaked the data. If he had not been so over confident,he might have even set up a flase weak point or two. As it was he tried to use an uncompleted battlestation as the bait for his trap.

that would be one hell of a distribution of firepower per caleber of the guns. if standard ISD1&2 would have 4 different guns, from flack to heavy it would be equivalent of ratio of 1:5:15:50:million or something. all guns fired in the movies (argubly not the heavy guns) were not even close to indicate any more resonable distribution.

[fedr808]

Now, I bid adieu - sadly for me my own computer just died for the last time (yes... it's died many times before and I always managed to bring it back from the brink)... I believe either my CPU itself or my MoBo has just bit the dust... and as it's over 6 years old, there is no point in trying to replace parts to revive it... sadly, with my wedding coming up in 3 weeks... I don't have the money to replace it. I hope to be able to stay up to date via my cell phone (which is how I'm typing this now) but it is impractical and somewhat difficult to manage as I can only see parts of the screen at once...

so if I'm not here... please, keep the tin foil hat close at hand in case Scott starts spouting more of his bullshit and Ent-D isn't around to refute it for you

Ill ask magneto to borrow his XD

[TW Scott]

that would be one hell of a distribution of firepower per caleber of the guns. if standard ISD1&2 would have 4 different guns, from flack to heavy it would be equivalent of ratio of 1:5:15:50:million or something. all guns fired in the movies (argubly not the heavy guns) were not even close to indicate any more resonable distribution.

Why would you even think this? Given that the numbers everyone has been throwing around for asteroid destruction or vapaorization are the bare minimums. There is no accounting to energy lost to conduction/convection. There is no accounting for the rapid dipersion of the gasses or for the photon emission you see. Also given other canon evidence on the behaviour of Torbolaser and laser cannons, we have proof that the beam of colored light is nothing more than tracer following the main destructive beam. Which opens up the possibility of damaging beam carrying on through the asteroid.

[TW Scott]

*chuckles*

Okay, give me one point in the movie to indicate a 200 gigaton Turbolaser Blast... I can give you PLENTY to disprove it... like the fact that it can't vaporize a tiny ship like the Falcon...

That proves nothing actually. Unless you show me a much lesser weapon vaporizing the Falcon. All it does prove is that SW shields are powerful.

As for the 128 M/T... again, coming from what? Are you an expert in theoretical sciences and quantum mechanics? You have NO IDEA what a zero-point vacuum detonation could do, do you...

According to script and character double the effective destructive power of the weapon. Since the warhead revolves areound a 1kg antimatter warhead the total was easy to figure out.

And yes, a Photon Torpedo can have almost no effect... as stated ON FUCKING SCREEN:

"This is a photonic torpedo. It can knock the comms array off a shuttlecraft without scratching the paint, or put a five kilometer wide crater into an asteroid, and everything in between"...

And that's an OLD PHOTONIC TORPEDO... think of what a modern Photon Mk VVIII can do...

Yes, and Enterpise is widely held as noncannon becuase it violates the standard history held by TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY not to mention the movies.

However if we go by character quotes the Photon Torped VII should have a 25 isoton yield.

Also you 5km crater quote is obvious worng as Commander Riker noted it would take the enite compliment of the Enterise D photon torpedoes to blast a way out of there and the Asteroid was at best 10 to 15km in diameter.

[TW Scott]

Again, mate, size doesn't matter at all...

the reason a quantum torpedo is so vastly more powerful than Scott can wrap his mind around is simple:

It's not just matter+antimatter=Boom... the matter and antimatter components intermix in a zero-point clean vacuum... and according to theoretical sciences, a vacuum detonation has near-limitless potential... yes, in theory you could blow up the earth with a light bulb. The physics behind it are mind boggling... I've seen the equations - they made my brain HURT in ways I didn't think it could. No, I couldn't make any sense of them - good luck trying to do so without a doctorate in physics and theoretical sciences...

my point is, though, that a q-torp is more than just a simple explosive warhead like Scott seems to think... much like the phaser, it's more complex than that... and that's what gives it it's power...

and that's why a TurboLaser is a pathetic excuse for a weapon compared to the phaser arrays of even a bloody Constellation class starship...

Notivce how he sties to inflate everything present in the show. The Torpedo was considered twice as powerful as a best Photons, but Kitt would have you believe he can use it to vaporize worlds.

[TW Scott]

Somewhat inaccurate. While Borg unprotected biological components remain vulnerable to weapons fire, their bodies are protected by shielding which protect each soldier to 100% of energy weapons fire - after the shielding system adapts to the weapon entirely (eg. modulating phasers would probably get three effective shots before Borg shielding systems render them completely useless).

I'd say that's pretty immune, although the immunity is not generated by the Borg body.

Boith a good argument and entirely invalid. Borg are able to shield themselves form some weapons. The power of the weapon depends on how much power the borg has stored. Yes, after a few shots their shields get incredibly efficent against incoming energy, bit not immune. Now borg are incredobly vulnerable to physical attack, How woul they fare agains the eqal part energy and physical impact blaster?

By the time First Contact had rolled around, the Federation is completely aware of the Borg and know how gain some profitable weapons fire on 'em.

Even so, the Cube was hardly in danger before Picard's arrival; you were probably taken in by the minor explosions on the Cube. Mere scratches that would have been auto-repaired in short order (historical Borg behaviour). Picard was the one who knew exactly where to fire upon the Cube to destroy it by virtue of overhearing the Borg via the lingering neural link of Locutus.

Unlike you i was listening to Data's assessment and was watching the federation ship give better than they got. The ship was near crippled and was easy prey

Further to that, Wolf 359 was not only credited to Locutus. I myself was hardly a threat to a standard non-Locutus Cube (as seen when Q first introduced them to the Borg). Had the Borg not had Locutus, they would have still cut thru Federation defenses at Wolf 359. Indeed, they lost because of Locutus...since he was an effective hack for Data to stall the Cube.

The ships at Wolf 359 had been prepared for Borg tactics and even know about modulating weapons and shields. However they were crushed and easily becuase of Locutus. Picard was a strategy and tactical genius,

I'd decided to reply to TW's attempt to de-power the Borg (I gather that was the goal). I wont address the rest of the post...it'd be like beating the bones of a long dead horse (right Kitt lol)...

This was asctually an attempt to bring the Borg back to Move and show Canon. And yes it is like Beating a dead horse, becuase you two kepp reanimating it.

[Kittamaru]

That proves nothing actually. Unless you show me a much lesser weapon vaporizing the Falcon. All it does prove is that SW shields are powerful.

Not really, as those same shields can't withstand impact with an asteroid of meaningful size

According to script and character double the effective destructive power of the weapon. Since the warhead revolves areound a 1kg antimatter warhead the total was easy to figure out.

Again, this is not a simple M/AM warhead... you have no clue how zero point energy works.

Yes, and Enterpise is widely held as noncannon becuase it violates the standard history held by TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY not to mention the movies.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter - Enterprise IS CANNON.

However if we go by character quotes the Photon Torped VII should have a 25 isoton yield.

Also you 5km crater quote is obvious worng as Commander Riker noted it would take the enite compliment of the Enterise D photon torpedoes to blast a way out of there and the Asteroid was at best 10 to 15km in diameter.

Again, you're taking things out of context - they were trying to blast an asteroid big enough to hold TWO STARSHIPS with room to FLY AROUDN but it was also being affected by a PHASE CLOAK, which we know makes a ship all but immune to damage...

Quit pulling at strings scotch, you can't win this

[Kittamaru]

Notivce how he sties to inflate everything present in the show. The Torpedo was considered twice as powerful as a best Photons, but Kitt would have you believe he can use it to vaporize worlds.

I never said a Q-Torp can vaporize worlds... you said that

What I did say is that if a turbolaser is anywhere near as powerful as TW Scotch likes to claim, the DS wouldn't be needed.

[Kittamaru]

Boith a good argument and entirely invalid. Borg are able to shield themselves form some weapons. The power of the weapon depends on how much power the borg has stored. Yes, after a few shots their shields get incredibly efficent against incoming energy, bit not immune. Now borg are incredobly vulnerable to physical attack, How woul they fare agains the eqal part energy and physical impact blaster?

You just doomed yourself with this statement.. now you're trying to claim your blasters have a PHYSICAL element... good. That means that A) They are MUCH lower in physical destructive power as they are not a completely cohesive beam and B) they are severely limited in speed, making them useless against Trek ships that move at even 1/4 the speed of light.


Unlike you i was listening to Data's assessment and was watching the federation ship give better than they got. The ship was near crippled and was easy prey

Then you're an idiot...

The ships at Wolf 359 had been prepared for Borg tactics and even know about modulating weapons and shields. However they were crushed and easily becuase of Locutus. Picard was a strategy and tactical genius,

And Picard is why the Borg were stopped... he was able to HELP Data you moron... if you had watched the episode, you'd know this.

This was asctually an attempt to bring the Borg back to Move and show Canon. And yes it is like Beating a dead horse, becuase you two kepp reanimating it.

Except what we're reanimating is my good friend called COMMON SENSE, which you so violently keep KILLING Scott.

[Kittamaru]

Why would you even think this? Given that the numbers everyone has been throwing around for asteroid destruction or vapaorization are the bare minimums. There is no accounting to energy lost to conduction/convection. There is no accounting for the rapid dipersion of the gasses or for the photon emission you see. Also given other canon evidence on the behaviour of Torbolaser and laser cannons, we have proof that the beam of colored light is nothing more than tracer following the main destructive beam. Which opens up the possibility of damaging beam carrying on through the asteroid.

Uhm... no we don't... give me even one screen-cap where the damage was done before the coloured part of the bolt hit...

As for asteroid vaporization - Trek has done this numerous times with torpedoes and phaser blasts... even the tiny Voyager was able to blow up an asteroid BIGGER than the one that knocked the bridge tower off your pathetic ISD...