Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Lord Vasago]

Actually it's called objective analysis of the data presented. I am a Trekkie as well as a Jedi. I love both franchises and they share second place in my heart in regards to Sci-fi, Firefly/Serenity taking first.

Believe me I would like to believe that the Federation/ST would win over Empire/Star Wars. However the realist in me as well as the dedicated fan looks at the canon of both universes and I have to accept the truth. In a war between the STar Wars galaxy and the Star Trek galaxy, Star Wars wins every time. They have superior numbers, superior tech excpet in a few small areas and even that is arguable, superior strategy speed, superior power generation, and vastly superior firepower. It's like asking Robocop (ST) to fight Megatron (SW) while one is clearly the good guy the other is so insanely powerful in comparison as to be unbeatable.

Mal would just kick picards butt

[antaran_1979]

TWS, our conclusions are somewhat compatible in the end as far the Empire winning over the Federation, but as far as only onscreen evidence is taken into account it won't be because of tech advantage (except in few areas) or firepower, but rather by numbers and FTL capability.

[fedr808]

I dont know, thus far in the SW universe it seems like it only occupies a small part of the galaxy like around a massive star or something.

That's why I like wh40k, because it does inhabit the entire galaxy from end to end with warships and armies. So as far as numbers go i dont think SW has much of a hope of even competing. Just the space marines have atleast 39,000 vessels from 1km to 8 km in length.

[Kittamaru]

Actually it's called objective analysis of the data presented. I am a Trekkie as well as a Jedi. I love both franchises and they share second place in my heart in regards to Sci-fi, Firefly/Serenity taking first.

Believe me I would like to believe that the Federation/ST would win over Empire/Star Wars. However the realist in me as well as the dedicated fan looks at the canon of both universes and I have to accept the truth. In a war between the STar Wars galaxy and the Star Trek galaxy, Star Wars wins every time. They have superior numbers, superior tech excpet in a few small areas and even that is arguable, superior strategy speed, superior power generation, and vastly superior firepower. It's like asking Robocop (ST) to fight Megatron (SW) while one is clearly the good guy the other is so insanely powerful in comparison as to be unbeatable.

Problem is you aren't objective...

trust me... I know how to be objective. After having to do multiple speeches in college that were for, then against, and then without my personal bias, I learned how to be objective.

SW has some distinct advantages, yes. But the "superior tech" you speak of doesn't exist... they aren't using multi-gigaton lasers, sorry... the movies simply show that isn't true.

[Kittamaru]

Dude I said the words "I am wrong and you are right" why the fuck could you not leave it at that?

And to be honest the above post applies to both of us in all practicality.

And also, The A-10 was retired a while ago.

Now are you finished?

Only if ou understand what the point of my argument was... but that can be taken to pm's if you don't.

[Kittamaru]

TWS, our conclusions are somewhat compatible in the end as far the Empire winning over the Federation, but as far as only onscreen evidence is taken into account it won't be because of tech advantage (except in few areas) or firepower, but rather by numbers and FTL capability.

Antaran, I have to wonder though - Hyperspace is a decent advantage over standard warp... bu don't you think that the Federation would press into service Quantum Slipstream and/or Transwarp drive with the information Voyager brought back if such a threat was imminent? I mean, they did it with the Borg threat and the Sovereign/Defiant projects, and those turned out pretty damn good I knwo it's an assumption, but we've seen Trek integrate new tech fairly quickly... we haven't really seen this hppen in the Wars movies...

[Kittamaru]

Actually... here's an interesting question...

the Phased Polaron Beams... would those bypass Star Wars shields? Trek was able to adapt by changing their shield frequencies an the way the emitters worked... Star Wars supposedly doesn't have a frequency (as Scott likes to claim) so... yeah.

[fedr808]

Antaran, I have to wonder though - Hyperspace is a decent advantage over standard warp... bu don't you think that the Federation would press into service Quantum Slipstream and/or Transwarp drive with the information Voyager brought back if such a threat was imminent? I mean, they did it with the Borg threat and the Sovereign/Defiant projects, and those turned out pretty damn good I knwo it's an assumption, but we've seen Trek integrate new tech fairly quickly... we haven't really seen this hppen in the Wars movies...

The problem with this arguement is the fact that there are so many exotic technologies we see in ST like transphasic torpedos and other weapons or shields, that anyone can make the arguement that these weapons already exist in the fed. Actually thats a bad example. Really bad.

But what I'm saying is that it's not fair to make the asusmptions that the feds would create personal shields even though they dont have them already, that even though the quantum slip stream is extremely prototyped that it can be pressed into service this second.

[Kittamaru]

Well, I dunno - the reason they haven't pressed it into service yet is A) it's somewhat dangerous still, which I'll get intto later, and B) it's energy and computational consuming.

It's dangerous because, well... if you loose the warp field and make an emergency drop from warp, you risk damage to the ship, but it will generally survive thanks to the SIF... a drop from Quantum Slipstream in an emergency, as far as I've seen, is utterly destructive.

Transphasic Torps probably aren't that "prototype" as Janeway only went back a few years into the past... they were in research at the time no doubt.

Metaphasic shields I'm not sure how readily available they are... I do know they are VERY power hungry, but nearly indestructible

[antaran_1979]

Antaran, I have to wonder though - Hyperspace is a decent advantage over standard warp... bu don't you think that the Federation would press into service Quantum Slipstream and/or Transwarp drive with the information Voyager brought back if such a threat was imminent? I mean, they did it with the Borg threat and the Sovereign/Defiant projects, and those turned out pretty damn good I knwo it's an assumption, but we've seen Trek integrate new tech fairly quickly... we haven't really seen this hppen in the Wars movies...

i have to agree with FEDR on this one, we analyse the universes as they are. now if we presume the conflict would last for several years in a state of status quo, then yes, maybe the feds would adapt quantum slipstream or transwarp into service but, by my guess the feds won't last that long, especially in the case of sneak attack. i'd guess the Empire would use an x number of ships to perform quick raids on major population and political centers to cause the civilian goverments to sue for peace. maybe even attempt similar raids on military and ship production facilities, but these would most likely end in heavy casulties on both sides. this tactic would cause the official Fed goverment to capitulate, but seeing throughout TNG and DS9 the military wing would most likely continue with active resistance. this how ever is considered guerrilla warfare. it maybe even possible for Starfleet to form a defence bubble around a small sphere of star systems few dosen light years across and hold it indefinitly or untill the empire desides to sacrifice a really large part of their fleet to subdue it. in the long run the empire is going to colapse from internal strugle, but the political entity known as UFP would be defeated.

[TW Scott]

Mal would just kick picards butt

Actually Mal would just shoot him end of story, while River made a mockery of Data and Jane beat the crap out of Worf. We all know how Zoe would own Riker. Hell the only useless one in combat is Wash and even he would try.

[antaran_1979]

Actually... here's an interesting question...

the Phased Polaron Beams... would those bypass Star Wars shields? Trek was able to adapt by changing their shield frequencies an the way the emitters worked... Star Wars supposedly doesn't have a frequency (as Scott likes to claim) so... yeah.

i think the feds adapted to polaron weapons by stealing an operative weapon. i don't recall frequencies were mentioned. as to if these weapons would ignore SW shields, i think not. at least the particle shields should stop them, unless the nature of polaron particles is phased out it self. but we don't really know that.

[TW Scott]

TWS, our conclusions are somewhat compatible in the end as far the Empire winning over the Federation, but as far as only onscreen evidence is taken into account it won't be because of tech advantage (except in few areas) or firepower, but rather by numbers and FTL capability.

Well, that is becuase you are being bought in by the ST flashy is better. It just isn't so. Look at the AK-47 vs M-16A2. Even with the improvements we made on the base model the more primative looking weapon actually is more reliable in every situation. Quality over flash.

Now SW tech may look backwards, but form everythign we have seen and read it out performs ST in every conceivable level. Strucutal materials. SW produce much larger craft on a regular basis than ST and they don't need structural integrity fields to keep the blasted things together. SW vessels carry many more weapons than their ST counterparts. SW vessels can take much more damage than thei ST counterparts.

Now i admit the replicator is a very handy device as is the transporter. The first is reliable, but the second is so fraught with peril no sane agency would allow it use on humans.

[TW Scott]

i think the feds adapted to polaron weapons by stealing an operative weapon. i don't recall frequencies were mentioned. as to if these weapons would ignore SW shields, i think not. at least the particle shields should stop them, unless the nature of polaron particles is phased out it self. but we don't really know that.

Actually form what we know the Poloran weapons just scrambled the shields of Federation vessels. They adjust after a while, but it was definate only a minor fix. Since SW shelds do not operate in a similair way there is no reason to think Polaran weapons would work against SW shields.

[TW Scott]

i have to agree with FEDR on this one, we analyse the universes as they are. now if we presume the conflict would last for several years in a state of status quo, then yes, maybe the feds would adapt quantum slipstream or transwarp into service but, by my guess the feds won't last that long, especially in the case of sneak attack. i'd guess the Empire would use an x number of ships to perform quick raids on major population and political centers to cause the civilian goverments to sue for peace. maybe even attempt similar raids on military and ship production facilities, but these would most likely end in heavy casulties on both sides. this tactic would cause the official Fed goverment to capitulate, but seeing throughout TNG and DS9 the military wing would most likely continue with active resistance. this how ever is considered guerrilla warfare. it maybe even possible for Starfleet to form a defence bubble around a small sphere of star systems few dosen light years across and hold it indefinitly or untill the empire desides to sacrifice a really large part of their fleet to subdue it. in the long run the empire is going to colapse from internal strugle, but the political entity known as UFP would be defeated.

The only problem with your assumptions is how you imagine the attacks coming off. The Empire would literally have the ability to pull a 9/11-Pearl Harbor attack at will on the Federation. Ships would appear from nowhere launch a massive attack and fade out long before the nearest fleet elements could respond.

Imagine the Mars utopia shipyard, where 90% fothe Federation fleet is built, suddenly coming under the attack of a pair of Wolrd Devastators backed up by a small fleet of ISD's. In minutes the Starbase would be a smoking hulk of metal hurtling towards the suface. Then the machines start devouring the world. Even if they only stick around 30 minutes of so, The colony would be a complete loss and the World Devastators would much more powerful. Now this is a much more devastating attack than a Death Star snipe, as you have possible survivors to look for. a wrecked colony and ruined shipyards.

Or imagine this attack, for weeks planets have been mysteriorusly being destroyed. Most of them empty, but a few have been heavily defended world just blown up with no rhyme or reason. Always the same power readng though. Then out of the blue thr Death Star shows up with a full fleet compliment and the Eclipse star destroyer. Both super lasers power up. Suddenly Luna is shattered and Empire is calling for the total surrender. Then the other star empires become the targets. Last to fall, the very helful Ferenghi

[Kittamaru]

Actually form what we know the Poloran weapons just scrambled the shields of Federation vessels. They adjust after a while, but it was definate only a minor fix. Since SW shelds do not operate in a similair way there is no reason to think Polaran weapons would work against SW shields.

Uhm... no... no they didn't. They bypassed fed/klingon/romulan shields entirely for a while.

Dominion ships all appear to use the phased polaron beam as their primary weaponry, and this gave them a heavy advantage in early conflicts with Federation forces.1 The destruction of the USS Odyssey1 prompted an intense flurry of activity on many fronts within Starfleet. Ship production was ramped to a maximum and starship designs were altered to increase their combat effectiveness, while the academy training program was speeded up massively to provide crews for the new ships. By themselves, however, these projects would be of little use so long as the Dominion was able to defeat Federation ships so easily.

Perhaps the most important project the Federation embarked on was that of shield enhancement. Between 2371 and 2373 the Federation put huge emphasis on the development of new shield technology. The capture of a Dominion vessel in 2373 gave the Federation an operational Dominion weapons system.4 This proved to be a crucial step towards the development of an effective polaron shield.

The first real test of the system came at the end of 2373, when the Dominion launched an all out attack on Deep Space Nine. The station's shields proved to be highly effective, holding off the fleet and allowing the station to destroy over fifty enemy ships.5 Federation ships and stations continued to be resistant to Dominion weaponry for the remainder of the war.2

[Kittamaru]

i have to agree with FEDR on this one, we analyse the universes as they are. now if we presume the conflict would last for several years in a state of status quo, then yes, maybe the feds would adapt quantum slipstream or transwarp into service but, by my guess the feds won't last that long, especially in the case of sneak attack. i'd guess the Empire would use an x number of ships to perform quick raids on major population and political centers to cause the civilian goverments to sue for peace. maybe even attempt similar raids on military and ship production facilities, but these would most likely end in heavy casulties on both sides. this tactic would cause the official Fed goverment to capitulate, but seeing throughout TNG and DS9 the military wing would most likely continue with active resistance. this how ever is considered guerrilla warfare. it maybe even possible for Starfleet to form a defence bubble around a small sphere of star systems few dosen light years across and hold it indefinitly or untill the empire desides to sacrifice a really large part of their fleet to subdue it. in the long run the empire is going to colapse from internal strugle, but the political entity known as UFP would be defeated.

See, my problem with this is how would the Empire know where to hit... we know they have issues with long-range scans in hyperspace... the Defiant coming out of HyperSpace into the asteroid field where the planet Alderraan should have been... something even a basic scan should have told Han. The UFP and her allies would have the homefield advantage, and as the Empire currently doesn't have a DS3... I don't think they could simply pop in and BDZ a planet before defenses take a large chunk out of their forces... especially as they wouldn't know WHERE to sneak attack.

But that depends - are we assuming that a race in Trek would betray the others (like the Ferengi)? Because if so, then the Empire has bigger problems to deal with and likely would never get to the Trek universe at all...

*shrugs*

I still think Utopia Staryards and Fed HQ would prove an uncrackable target for the Empire, if only by the virtue of armed stations therein. The only reason the Borg Cube waltzed in the way it did was because the Borg had adapated to the current generation Federation weapons... and as we know, once they adapt, no matter how much firepower you pour into it, it's pretty much moot point.

[Kittamaru]

Well, that is becuase you are being bought in by the ST flashy is better. It just isn't so. Look at the AK-47 vs M-16A2. Even with the improvements we made on the base model the more primative looking weapon actually is more reliable in every situation. Quality over flash.

Thing is, this is a terrible comparison... the M-16A2 is a terrible weapon and everyone who's used it knows it. The LA51, the G36C, and the FN2000 are all "flashier" weapons that kick the shit out of both the AK-47 and the M16A2... why the US Armed Forces sticks stubbornly to the M16A2 is simple - it's cheap, parts are widely available, and it's already mass-produced... in other words, it's cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap.

Now SW tech may look backwards, but form everythign we have seen and read it out performs ST in every conceivable level. Strucutal materials. SW produce much larger craft on a regular basis than ST and they don't need structural integrity fields to keep the blasted things together. SW vessels carry many more weapons than their ST counterparts. SW vessels can take much more damage than thei ST counterparts.

Actually, this simply proves that larger Star Trek ships can accelerate and maneuver faster than their Imperial ... you can't deny the physical implications of a high-speed maneuver on a long vessel... epsecially if you are really as into sciences as you proclaim.

Now i admit the replicator is a very handy device as is the transporter. The first is reliable, but the second is so fraught with peril no sane agency would allow it use on humans.

actually, if you use it with a hint of brain wave activity and some form of situational awareness, it's safer than a shuttlecraft.

eargh, in red

[antaran_1979]

Well, that is becuase you are being bought in by the ST flashy is better. It just isn't so. Look at the AK-47 vs M-16A2. Even with the improvements we made on the base model the more primative looking weapon actually is more reliable in every situation. Quality over flash.

Now SW tech may look backwards, but form everythign we have seen and read it out performs ST in every conceivable level. Strucutal materials. SW produce much larger craft on a regular basis than ST and they don't need structural integrity fields to keep the blasted things together. SW vessels carry many more weapons than their ST counterparts. SW vessels can take much more damage than thei ST counterparts.

Now i admit the replicator is a very handy device as is the transporter. The first is reliable, but the second is so fraught with peril no sane agency would allow it use on humans.

ugh, i know i'll risk opening another can of worms like the A-10 before, but i have to admit that i am one of the few people online that holds the AK-47 and AKM in strong disfavor. not that the M-16A2 or the M4 carabine are masterpieces themselves, but the AKs are....well i can't put it into words. have you ever used one? my country is using those as standard assault rifles and well they are reliable. and cheap. that's about it. i've seen many so called "documantaries" that try to depict the AKs as a superior weapon (like the fabled shoot the brick scene). the fact is AKs are way unprecise for a modern rifle (even for a 50s rifle) and it's lethality is no where near of that the most 5.56 mm rifles have. a few years a go during a new year's celebration i young girl was shot by a stray bullet from an AK. she did not even notice it and even the medic in question mistook the wound as a cigarette burn. in fact the bullet entered through her neck and ended deep inside her abdomen causing internal bleeding. by the time they figured that out (3 days later) she was in critical condition and later on died . this is not a trademark of stopping power or lethality. the same wound from an M-16 would have killed her on the spot.

for the rest of the post (or the SIFs), well they are used to enchance manouvering(even 1000+m ships in ST are very agile) capability and structural integrity as well as warp stress, but nowhere do we actually see the ships buckle without them. even derilicts and disabled ships have been found inside gravity wells or crash landed on planets and their hulls were still holding. the major criticism i would give to UFP ships is the delicate nature of Warp drive.

[antaran_1979]

The only problem with your assumptions is how you imagine the attacks coming off. The Empire would literally have the ability to pull a 9/11-Pearl Harbor attack at will on the Federation. Ships would appear from nowhere launch a massive attack and fade out long before the nearest fleet elements could respond.

Imagine the Mars utopia shipyard.........

as always the difference is actually the participants in the engagement. i'll neve use EU elements, but movie apearances only. so in my scenario the said raids would be performed by large groups of ISDs 1&2 and possibly some support craft. still surprise attacks would still be very effective given the number advantage. only withing 10-50 lys diameter could the feds organise group defences or near some crucial facilities like Star base 74 or Mars Shipyards where large concentration of military facilities is constantly present. heck even Earth is not as well defended allthough it's far from being a soft target. the Federation as a whole is still relatively easy prey for hit and run hyperspace jumps.