Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

The "speculative bullshit" part was your assumption that 40k ships would be crippled if they lost a fraction of their engines.

Federation ships wouldn't even be able to keep up with 40k ships, or SW ships for that matter. Both 40k and SW have FTL engines that are orders of magnitude better. I can see it now; the Imperium sends a thousand ships to attack a Federation world. The Federation assembles a huge fleet to oppose them. Then, rather than attacking that world, the 40k fleet just jumps to another one and has days to pillage it before the federation ships can even get there. When the mighty Federation fleet finally arrives, the 40k fleet just jumps back to the original planet and toasts that one too.

You can't defend yourself with a fleet when the enemy is faster than you, because your enemy can always just go attack somewhere other than where your fleet currently is. The only alternative is to spread your fleet thinly, in which case you always have just a few ships facing a large fleet.

And if the Federation actually manages to win against the first thousand ships, well, just sent another thousand, or ten thousand, or however many you like...we have many millions.

I'll stop saying that you're spouting speculative bullshit when you stop spouting speculative bullshit. And it's ironic beyond belief that you say "unlike you, I actually research what I say" when you've been making up one bullshit "fact" after another in this thread. Weren't you the one who denied that the 40k imperium has many millions of warships? Weren't you the one who kept insisting over and over that the feds got a can of Sorin's missile at Amagosia, uh, I mean Veridian III, uh, I mean...uh...the dialog shows they understand trilithium can destroy stars...oh, it doesn't? Uh...well...uh....

Those are just the first few examples that come to mind, I'm sure there's plenty more of your bullshit littered throughout the thread.

I admitted my mistake with the missile - it was something I had been pretty well sure of and when I went back and re-checked, I was indeed wrong. So drop it - I was man enough to concede it to you, but the point still stands - Soran isn't the only one to use a Trilithium warhead to try to pop a star...

And I still don't see where you get millions of warships from for the Imperium... not one source I have looked at states anything NEAR that high. If it's coming from the books, show me - I haven't read all the books, and the ones I have were focused on the Space Marines, not the Imperial Navy...

[Lord Vasago]

i think Data owes his existance to Isaac Asimov, oh ye nerds. start reading some real SF, not fan fiction

could not agree with you more

[Kittamaru]

My final point to pin this topic is this:

We have seen Star Wars ships fail to see a ship that attached itself to the backside of their own allies ship... terrible to be honest. Look out the damn window fer crying out loud.

We have WH40K ships that are bloody huge... why, I really don't know. Their size has no real meaning unless perhaps they cannot shrink their weapons technology down to a manageable amount... enormous mass is a decent defense, but is quickly overcome.

Star Trek is not the most powerful or fastest... but it's got the best balance. Ships capable of performing a variety of missions in a variety of situations all with high degrees of success... from exploration and first contact to diplomatic escorts to all out battle situations. Their ships are quick, nimble, and capable of fighting most ships able to keep pace with them, and of outrunning ships able to outgun them, and, in the end, the crew makes the ship what it really is...

We have seen some serious incompetency on the Star Wars side... I dont' know much about the WH40K ship crews, but if they are anything like the imperial soldiers in the WH40K PC games... heh. A few good holograms and they'll piss themselves :P That's just going off the games though, so I can't be sure

[Nasor]

I admitted my mistake with the missile - it was something I had been pretty well sure of and when I went back and re-checked, I was indeed wrong.

Hey, I was ready to let it go until you tried to insult me by saying ""unlike you, I actually research what I say." Sorry, but if you spout a bunch of bullshit, get called on it, and admit your mistake, immediately turning around and saying something like that probably isn't the best idea.

And I still don't see where you get millions of warships from for the Imperium... not one source I have looked at states anything NEAR that high. If it's coming from the books, show me - I haven't read all the books, and the ones I have were focused on the Space Marines, not the Imperial Navy...

The Imperium is divided into five "Segmenta": Solar, Obscuras, Pacificus, Tempestus and Ultima. Every ship of the Imperial Navy is assigned to one of these Segmenta, and falls under the command of the respective Lord High Admiral.

In turn, each Segmentum is divided into "sectors", regions of space that are generally cube-shaped and contain 8 million cubic light years of space. These sectors contain multiple sub-sectors, collections of star systems no more than twenty light years in radius. The ships of each Segmentum are divided amongst the sectors. These Battlefleets are assigned the task of safeguarding the sector they are assigned to, each Battlefleet is generally named after the sector it is assigned to (Battlefleet Gothic is located in the Gothic sector, Battlefleet Cadia is located in the Cadian sector, etc).

Each Battlefleet is assigned a number of cruisers and battleships, usually between fifty and seventy-five vessels.

The disk of the galaxy is about 2000 lightyears thick with a radius of 60000 lightyears. Divide that into sectors that are 8 million cubic lightyears each, and you get 2.8 million sectors. Multiply that by 50 ships per sector, and you get about 140 million capital ships (cruisers and battleships), and probably at least twice that in smaller scout ships and escorts (although even the smallest scouts and escorts are bigger than a Galaxy class ship).

These huge numbers make sense, given that the imperium has a billion worlds. How many war ships would you expect them to have?

[Lord Vasago]

Uh, you DO realize that Worf used the enterprise's lockout codes to trick their sensors... in other words, he hacked into their fucking computer and TOLD IT what to say...

And no, the ferengi weren't using active sensors... they had locked onto the Enterprise as that was the immediate threat. They alread knew the Hathaway had no weapons, and already detected it had no anti-matter stores and thus no warp capability... which you'd realize they SAID if you watched the actual episode

You are wrong scott... as usual. Get over it.

do i read this correctly??? worf hacked into their computer and told it what to say ????? hmmmm doesn't sound good for ST does it.

[Lord Vasago]

As I recall the largest 40k ships are in the 8 km neighborhood. If the SD is 1 km along its long axis, that comparison might be about right.

I'm not saying those schips aren't 8km long. but if you look closely to the comparising picture and you know that a isd is 480m tall then this ship is between 6,9 and 7km high.

I don't know this wh40k but if that is the ship fedr is talking about their is a slight problem. Your ships have shields but they rely more on there amor (please correct me if i'm wrong) but how the hell do you defend your ship when there are windows higher than a isd. it must be extremely tough glass.

[Kittamaru]

Hey, I was ready to let it go until you tried to insult me by saying ""unlike you, I actually research what I say." Sorry, but if you spout a bunch of bullshit, get called on it, and admit your mistake, immediately turning around and saying something like that probably isn't the best idea.

quote me wholly, or not at all - I was reasonably sure on what I was saying, so I didn't bother to look it up to double check :P

The disk of the galaxy is about 2000 lightyears thick with a radius of 60000 lightyears. Divide that into sectors that are 8 million cubic lightyears each, and you get 2.8 million sectors. Multiply that by 50 ships per sector, and you get about 140 million capital ships (cruisers and battleships), and probably at least twice that in smaller scout ships and escorts (although even the smallest scouts and escorts are bigger than a Galaxy class ship).



These huge numbers make sense, given that the imperium has a billion worlds. How many war ships would you expect them to have?

1) Where are you getting these numbers from...?

2) If their ships are as fast and as powerful as you claim, I wouldn't expect them to need more than a few thousand to maintain order... unless revolts and rebellions are common as in Star Wars...

[Kittamaru]

do i read this correctly??? worf hacked into their computer and told it what to say ????? hmmmm doesn't sound good for ST does it.

Worf is the Tactical Officer on board the Enterprise... as such, he knew the remote lockout codes used to disable a ship in the event it somehow falls into enemy hands (case in point, wrath of khan)... instead of disabling the Enterprise, he made it see "false" images...

And before you say it, no... not every joe schmoe knows the lockout codes. Mostly, it's captains and above that can even ACCESS them, with Admirals knowing them readily. Worf only knew it because he's the tactical officer

[Nasor]

1) Where are you getting these numbers from...?

It comes from the Battlefleet Gothic rule book. You can confirm it here:http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy

2) If their ships are as fast and as powerful as you claim, I wouldn't expect them to need more than a few thousand to maintain order

Dude, they have a billion planets to police. Even with 150 million ships, that means they have many planets for every ship.

... unless revolts and rebellions are common as in Star Wars...

Yeah, rebellion is a constant concern. But an even bigger issue is the constant threat from invaders from other galaxies, ancient alien races with far fewer ships but much more advanced technology, etc. Not to mention the fact that a while ago half the navy rebelled and went off to another dimension via a gateway that they still regularly use to launch massive attacks against the imperium.

[Kittamaru]

It comes from the Battlefleet Gothic rule book. You can confirm it here:http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy

Dude, they have a billion planets to police. Even with 150 million ships, that means they have many planets for every ship.
Yeah, rebellion is a constant concern. But an even bigger issue is the constant threat from invaders from other galaxies, ancient alien races with far fewer ships but much more advanced technology, etc. Not to mention the fact that a while ago half the navy rebelled and went off to another dimension via a gateway that they still regularly use to launch massive attacks against the imperium.

Okay, then we have a problem - how many ships of theirs would it take to fend off a single Chaos Marine squadron?

[TW Scott]

i think Data owes his existance to Isaac Asimov, oh ye nerds. start reading some real SF, not fan fiction

Yes he owes it to Asimov, I was leaving the obvious out. However his main personality is much like an emotionaless C-3po, constantly intrigued, amazed and disppointed in sentient beings.

[TW Scott]

Uh, you DO realize that Worf used the enterprise's lockout codes to trick their sensors... in other words, he hacked into their fucking computer and TOLD IT what to say...

Actually he told Riker he could come up with a distraction, not erase them from sensor grid.

And no, the ferengi weren't using active sensors... they had locked onto the Enterprise as that was the immediate threat. They alread knew the Hathaway had no weapons, and already detected it had no anti-matter stores and thus no warp capability... which you'd realize they SAID if you watched the actual episode

The ship had a few grams of antimatter, far less than what their sensoprs would even have detected. hell the Enterprises interior sensors had no clue there was any antimatter aboard out of caontainment. The Enterprise detected no antimatter aboard the Hathaway.

But this put he the lie to the test, having a lock on require active scanner to be sweeping the area. After all you don;t losse lock on if you or the enemy moves. So the scanners were active .

You are wrong scott... as usual. Get over it.

As usual, it is indeed you who are wrong. Been reading a little too much of your own fanfic, i guess.

[TW Scott]

Worf is the Tactical Officer on board the Enterprise... as such, he knew the remote lockout codes used to disable a ship in the event it somehow falls into enemy hands (case in point, wrath of khan)... instead of disabling the Enterprise, he made it see "false" images...

And before you say it, no... not every joe schmoe knows the lockout codes. Mostly, it's captains and above that can even ACCESS them, with Admirals knowing them readily. Worf only knew it because he's the tactical officer

However even a half way decent hacker can hack Star Trek computers as shown by Voyager when they headed back in time. It's not technology that gets you through but talent. And SW ships as routine carry Slicers (what SW calls hackers)


However, think on thism, Worf made the Ferengi vessel see a ghost vessel that was not there and rapidly approaching. So tell me again he neede the codes to do that.

[Kittamaru]

Yes he owes it to Asimov, I was leaving the obvious out. However his main personality is much like an emotionaless C-3po, constantly intrigued, amazed and disppointed in sentient beings.

Except with two key differences:

1) He's not afraid to risk himself to save his friends (unlike the yellow bellied C3P90)

2) He strives to improve himself... C3P0 strives for nothing... at all...

[Kittamaru]

However even a half way decent hacker can hack Star Trek computers as shown by Voyager when they headed back in time. It's not technology that gets you through but talent. And SW ships as routine carry Slicers (what SW calls hackers)


However, think on thism, Worf made the Ferengi vessel see a ghost vessel that was not there and rapidly approaching. So tell me again he neede the codes to do that.

ferengi starship =/= federation starship, so right there you can't argue the ferengi could have done the same to the Enterprise :

As for HOW he did that, I haven't the foggiest. Maybe the Ferengi neglected to encrypt their computer systems... god only knows they aren't the brightest species in the world.

[TW Scott]

[QUOTE=Kittamaru;2229942]My final point to pin this topic is this:{/quote]

It isn;t but it would be so nice if it was.

We have seen Star Wars ships fail to see a ship that attached itself to the backside of their own allies ship... terrible to be honest. Look out the damn window fer crying out loud.

And we explained why this happened Legendary officer utilizing little known weak point in sensor array with ship that is resistant to scans.

We have WH40K ships that are bloody huge... why, I really don't know. Their size has no real meaning unless perhaps they cannot shrink their weapons technology down to a manageable amount... enormous mass is a decent defense, but is quickly overcome.

Or perhaps they use such bloody massive ships so they can cram that much onto them.

Star Trek is not the most powerful or fastest... but it's got the best balance. Ships capable of performing a variety of missions in a variety of situations all with high degrees of success... from exploration and first contact to diplomatic escorts to all out battle situations. Their ships are quick, nimble, and capable of fighting most ships able to keep pace with them, and of outrunning ships able to outgun them, and, in the end, the crew makes the ship what it really is...

Actually this would be true, if ST canon supported fanfic material, but it doesn't.

ST has again and again been shown to basically get into a knife fight with the nemey the only ships that tend to use strafing runs is the Defiant and Voyager and even latter tries to go towe to toe to often. The weapons are also extremely weak compared to the SW and W40K weapons and the strategic speed is laughable. Wars are won in strategy not tactics. What good are your 'moves like a fighter capital ships' if all your planets and star bases are suddenly liberated from you communist regime.

[TW Scott]

Except with two key differences:

1) He's not afraid to risk himself to save his friends (unlike the yellow bellied C3P90)

Actually C-3PO has performed some rather selfless acts of accidental heroism. Though you are right, but that just shows how much more humanlike he is after all he's a diplomat and interpretor, not a soldier.

2) He strives to improve himself... C3P0 strives for nothing... at all...

Incorrect, C-3PO, like all droids strive to make the being they view as their masters happy, healthy, and satisfied with their performance. Despite have self preservation software they would do anything they are asked even in C3PO's case pretending to be a God becuase Luke told him what to say.

[TW Scott]

Actually he told Riker he could come up with a distraction, not erase them from sensor grid.

He didn't erase them! The Enterprise could see them clear as day - however, as they were using FAKE weapons at the time (to avoid accidental damage) the Enterprise had to disengage their "fakes", raise shields, and re-engage actual weapons... giving Riker plenty of time to attack...

Are you serious, I told you he could not erase them? And remember the Enterprise was looking fo the hathaway and then the sudden appearance of a 'Romulan Warbird' made the turn their back and as they were other wise distracted Riker swept down out of the pole scoring several hits.


The ship had a few grams of antimatter, far less than what their sensoprs would even have detected. hell the Enterprises interior sensors had no clue there was any antimatter aboard out of caontainment. The Enterprise detected no antimatter aboard the Hathaway.

Because there WAS NONE. They had a 2 second warp jump because of Wesley's experiment in high-energy particle physics... it wasn't antimatter by any standard of the word. Jackass...

INT. ENTERPRISE - ENGINEERING - TIGHT ON ANTI-MATTER
CONTAINMENT DEVICE

The magnetic chamber is round, about the size of a
human head -- a clear orb with a snowball-sized piece
of anti-matter suspended in the center. Long,
intricately-cabled pieces of clear tubing extend out
from opposite sides of the orb -- generating the force
which keeps the anti-matter from escaping and wreaking
havoc. Attached to the end of the tubes are
finger-friendly handles.

TWO VERY CAREFUL HANDS now wrap themselves around these
grips. WIDEN to reveal Wesley -- in the company of
Ensign Burke -- delicately maneuvering the orb from
his personal experimental station.

Throughout this scene Wesley is talking just a little
too much. Nervous chatter as he tries to cover that
he's doing a naughty. Burke is equally anxious to be
back on the bridge.




Riker ENTERS to find Geordi and Wesley hard at work
installing the orb in the anti-matter chamber.

RIKER
What's that?

WESLEY
My experiment from the Enterprise.

RIKER
(a little suspicious)
Wes?

WESLEY
It dealt with high-energy plasma
reactions --
(points to the globe)
-- with anti-matter.

It's clicked for Riker.

But this put the lie to the test, having a lock on require active scanner to be sweeping the area. After all you don;t losse lock on if you or the enemy moves. So the scanners were active .

Uhm... no. Even modern-day ships can use passive sensors to obtain a lock... US SSN (nuclear attack submarines) do this all the time using what's ironically called "passive" sonar... eg, they listen to the noise their enemy makes.

Hey modern day vessels can do many thngs today that ST canon states is impossible for ST vessels.

However you do not obtain a lock on in a modern nuclear sub with passive sonar, you use it to passively detect possible enemies without actively sending out pulses.

[TW Scott]

ferengi starship =/= federation starship, so right there you can't argue the ferengi could have done the same to the Enterprise :

As for HOW he did that, I haven't the foggiest. Maybe the Ferengi neglected to encrypt their computer systems... god only knows they aren't the brightest species in the world.

Actually as they produce war vessels on par with the Federation Galaxy class cruiser they must have something going for them. Also as even Quark showed the ability to hack Federation replicators, I doubt the race would leave their computers so open after information is money.

[Kittamaru]

[QUOTE=TW Scott;2230316]

My final point to pin this topic is this:{/quote]

It isn;t but it would be so nice if it was.



And we explained why this happened Legendary officer utilizing little known weak point in sensor array with ship that is resistant to scans.

Or they can look out the window and SEE the fucking falcon...

Or perhaps they use such bloody massive ships so they can cram that much onto them.



Actually this would be true, if ST canon supported fanfic material, but it doesn't.

ST has again and again been shown to basically get into a knife fight with the nemey the only ships that tend to use strafing runs is the Defiant and Voyager and even latter tries to go towe to toe to often. The weapons are also extremely weak compared to the SW and W40K weapons and the strategic speed is laughable. Wars are won in strategy not tactics. What good are your 'moves like a fighter capital ships' if all your planets and star bases are suddenly liberated from you communist regime.

I'm not going to respondd to the rest of your comments as A) it isn't worth it since you have a distinct lack of a point or proof and B you're a jackass and even in the face of overwhelming proof you'll spout your nonsense