View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #15081
    what if the cast, as in the actual actors, just got in a huge brawl?

    Harrison Ford at Picard?

    Neil Christopher Anderson against Carrie Fisher?

  2. #15082
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vasago View Post
    Lasers are ineffective against ST shields. I hear this constantly. this is based on the fact that picard said this when they scaned a ship.
    but this was a small, outdated ship. it has what, 5? ,6? 12? lasercannons ?
    but what if their opponent is a vessel a few times their size with hundreds of lasercannons who are at their 'theoretical max'.

    there's stil a difference for a shield to cope with getting hit on one place and getting hit allover and continiously. and once your generators get fried it won't take that long as ST doesn't really have though armor, except maybe that ablative armor.
    it is rather a side effect of trek propulsion. trek shields are derived from their engines containements, structural intergity fields and navigational deflectors. all are based on localised space time distortions. the nav deflector especially was present on the earliest warp ships to prevent the ship from ultra-violet catastrophe sort of speaking. this is acheaved through "curving" the space time around the ship so that the high energy photons (boosted by the space-time compression/lengthening) go around it. so by default no em-based weapon can go through this deflector no matter how powerfull as long as its incoming vector is dead ahead of the ship. the regular deflector shields work in the same general principle (this is why the bubble goes visible when impact ocurs) with the difference that this localised distrortion can be generated anywhere around the ship.

    now, the problem here is that when all of the shield grid is active at the same time it consumes lot of energy, eventually causing the shield generators to fail. so if a fed ship (or any alpha/beta quadrant ship i know of) gets smacked with lasers from all/many sides at once this will eventually cause the shields to fail by overload. the time needed for such a feat could range from hours to days, depending on the target performance and the conditions in which the battle is joined. it should be noted that the energy levels of the laser is not relevant to the time required, but rather the beams hitting the bubble at the same time and the time of exposure. in other words, all you need is to just get the laser powerfull enough so the shield would consider it a threat and then conserve the rest of your energy.

    good luck in holding the ship still and surounded for all that time though. laying a siedge on an active target would require extreame superiority in numbers AND some form of a tractor beam. even in such conditions the fed vessel will still be fully combat capable and firing like mad at you.

  3. #15083
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    1,447
    Quote Originally Posted by Exterminate!!! View Post
    what if the cast, as in the actual actors, just got in a huge brawl?

    Harrison Ford at Picard?

    Neil Christopher Anderson against Carrie Fisher?
    a mud wrestling duel perhaps?

  4. #15084
    Heute der Enteteich... Oli's Avatar
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    11,890
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    a mud wrestling duel perhaps?
    Eeeuw!
    Unless Tasha Yar is involved, of course...

  5. #15085
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    7,678
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vasago View Post
    Lasers are ineffective against ST shields. I hear this constantly. this is based on the fact that picard said this when they scaned a ship.
    but this was a small, outdated ship. it has what, 5? ,6? 12? lasercannons ?
    but what if their opponent is a vessel a few times their size with hundreds of lasercannons who are at their 'theoretical max'.

    there's stil a difference for a shield to cope with getting hit on one place and getting hit allover and continiously. and once your generators get fried it won't take that long as ST doesn't really have though armor, except maybe that ablative armor.
    the problem is, that "theoretical max" is far, far behind the curve of Trek shielding... a hundred lasers at their maximum impacting the shields of the Enterprise-E would have a negligible effect, if any... and remember, newer ships have regenerative shielding, allowing them to last much, much longer.

  6. #15086
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    hmm sub space weapons don't really tear up warp bubbles, they tear up space time being attracted by gravity wells and thier simulators (warp cores). we have no idea of these weapons can be used in warp though.
    They are highly attracted to warp drives (as voiced in a few TNG episodes and ST: Insurrection) - going to Warp from Impulse would cause the tear to "jump" to you an absorb the warp field, tearing your ship asunder

  7. #15087
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exterminate!!! View Post
    what if the cast, as in the actual actors, just got in a huge brawl?

    Harrison Ford at Picard?

    Neil Christopher Anderson against Carrie Fisher?
    Considering Patrick Stewart is actually quite buff... I think he'd kick Harrison Ford's ass... lol.

  8. #15088
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    7,678
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    it is rather a side effect of trek propulsion. trek shields are derived from their engines containements, structural intergity fields and navigational deflectors. all are based on localised space time distortions. the nav deflector especially was present on the earliest warp ships to prevent the ship from ultra-violet catastrophe sort of speaking. this is acheaved through "curving" the space time around the ship so that the high energy photons (boosted by the space-time compression/lengthening) go around it. so by default no em-based weapon can go through this deflector no matter how powerfull as long as its incoming vector is dead ahead of the ship. the regular deflector shields work in the same general principle (this is why the bubble goes visible when impact ocurs) with the difference that this localised distrortion can be generated anywhere around the ship.

    now, the problem here is that when all of the shield grid is active at the same time it consumes lot of energy, eventually causing the shield generators to fail. so if a fed ship (or any alpha/beta quadrant ship i know of) gets smacked with lasers from all/many sides at once this will eventually cause the shields to fail by overload. the time needed for such a feat could range from hours to days, depending on the target performance and the conditions in which the battle is joined. it should be noted that the energy levels of the laser is not relevant to the time required, but rather the beams hitting the bubble at the same time and the time of exposure. in other words, all you need is to just get the laser powerfull enough so the shield would consider it a threat and then conserve the rest of your energy.

    good luck in holding the ship still and surounded for all that time though. laying a siedge on an active target would require extreame superiority in numbers AND some form of a tractor beam. even in such conditions the fed vessel will still be fully combat capable and firing like mad at you.
    Not only that... but consider that regenerative shielding systems have backup generators on standby to allow the primary's to "stand down" and recharge... plus the newer, smaller warships with tighter shield profiles would be FAR less affected by this... the shields on the Defiant are very tough (maybe 70% as tough as the Sovereign) but her profile is MUCH smaller...

  9. #15089
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Considering Patrick Stewart is actually quite buff... I think he'd kick Harrison Ford's ass... lol.
    And we're all forgetting Doctor Who...

    or is that not a valid universe?

  10. #15090
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    i guess from the effectivness of the weapons used against them and the emphasis on armour.
    So i guess that means my lascannons and plasma cannons are so powerful against shields, that it is more efficient to use hull armor than shields. Ergo, there is a lot more power than you feds would think is possible.

  11. #15091
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    in modern days there are shutlles the size of a convertable car with an engine core the size of a small table and then you estemate the size of the reaction chamber and the containement field. these are low warp ships but still antimatter powered in the Fed examples.
    Im talking about your massive fed cruisers not ir tiny little life boats.

  12. #15092
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    They have - subspace weapons... they were banned by the Kitohmer Accord and any race found using them is held as criminal
    Im not saying that to probe thaqt the feds are weak im just saying in general that would be a pretty good weapon idea.

    And also, even if lascannons are weak against shields, a few hundred of them pounding the enterprise's shields will still rip them apart in a short amount of time. And when that inevitably happens, the enterprise will be at the mercy of the lascannons or of boarding parties.

  13. #15093
    Valued Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    what makes you think that it is the amount of jules that pentrates the shields in the first place? is it the number of jules that phasers have that causes matter to destabilise? are point focus weapons more shield piercing then enveloping weapons? you need to answer this things when you analise weapon effectivness.
    My point was that he was talking as if he had analyzed the relative strength of both, and concluded that trek shields were better, when in fact he hadn't. He has no evidence either way.
    the point about laser and plasma weapons is that there is an upper limit of how much energy you can pump into them. no matter how much you try you can't get a more energetic photon then the gamma quants.
    Do you actually know anything about optics? There is no upper limit to the energy of a photon. Gamma rays are the most energetic photons commonly seen in nature, but that doesn't mean it's theoretically impossible for higher energy photons to exist. And of course, you can always deliver more energy by using more photons of a given wavelength. Your microwave oven uses very low energy photons, but it still manages to heat the hell out of stuff.
    70 ships per populated world is not much. in trek there are only several hundred members in UFP by the time of FC movie and yet in DS9 we see fleets composed of 600+ ships and fleet numbers ranging to at least 9.
    When did they ever show 600+ federation ships? Give me a reference.

  14. #15094
    Valued Senior Member
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    6,223
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Your own words...

    Las cannons easily overpower shields...
    Armor is used to resist lascannons...

    Lasers, no matter how big, are WEAK and OUTDATED by Trek standards... a LASER BASED WEAPON (Photon Based) has a pre-set physical limit on it's power output. Phaser Cannons were the next evolution on that, and Phasers evolved from that. Pulse Phasers evolved from Phasers...

    Disruptors would be the next step up (which is what romulans and klingons use) but the Federation refuses to use them based on principle - Disruptors work by expanding and contracting the target material millions of times a second... excruciating vs a living being even on stun, where as a stunning phaser has almost no physical pain.

    So, thus, your weapons, which easily overpower your shields (by your OWN ADMISSION) are antiquated by our standards... a PHOTON CAN ONLY CARRY SO MUCH ENERGY BEFORE IT ATOMICALLY CHANGES.
    Where are you guys getting this bullshit? Have you ever taken a physics class? THERE IS NO UPPER LIMIT TO THE ENERGY OF A PHOTON. The fact that the Feds can't build powerful laser weapons doesn't mean that powerful laser weapons are impossible, or that laser weapons couldn't be a threat to Fed ships. The only time we've ever even seen the Feds threatened by lasers, it was from a weakling race with tiny ships and primitive technology. You have zero evidence that Fed ships can withstand 40k lascannons.

  15. #15095
    The fact is that they can't, and also, even if you can muster 9 million ships for the feds which only 1,000 of which are combat vessels, the rest beign transport and other ships that are just cannon fodder, your still facing off against 39 million SM vessels a few hundred million Imperial vessels and around a billion vessels including every other race.

  16. #15096
    Nasor, Kitt also thinks that they can teleport a titan, what a fucking joke.

  17. #15097
    Valued Senior Member
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    6,223
    Quote Originally Posted by fedr808 View Post
    The fact is that they can't, and also, even if you can muster 9 million ships for the feds which only 1,000 of which are combat vessels, the rest beign transport and other ships that are just cannon fodder, your still facing off against 39 million SM vessels a few hundred million Imperial vessels and around a billion vessels including every other race.
    More like 30-40 thousand SM vessels. I believe it's an average of 30-40 ships per chapter times 1000 chapters. They don't let the marines have many ships, because they don't want them to be able to do too much damage if they go rogue. And the ships are mostly crewed by personnel from the the navy, so if a chapter starts to go all heretic they won't even be able to use their own ships - hopefully the officers and crew will refuse to follow the SM's orders if the chapter goes over to chaos or something.

    The imperium pretty afraid of their own marines, which is why they break them up into relatively small 1000 man chapters. (Can't really blame them given their history though...)

  18. #15098
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    it is rather a side effect of trek propulsion. trek shields are derived from their engines containements, structural intergity fields and navigational deflectors. all are based on localised space time distortions. the nav deflector especially was present on the earliest warp ships to prevent the ship from ultra-violet catastrophe sort of speaking. this is acheaved through "curving" the space time around the ship so that the high energy photons (boosted by the space-time compression/lengthening) go around it. so by default no em-based weapon can go through this deflector no matter how powerfull as long as its incoming vector is dead ahead of the ship. the regular deflector shields work in the same general principle (this is why the bubble goes visible when impact ocurs) with the difference that this localised distrortion can be generated anywhere around the ship.

    now, the problem here is that when all of the shield grid is active at the same time it consumes lot of energy, eventually causing the shield generators to fail. so if a fed ship (or any alpha/beta quadrant ship i know of) gets smacked with lasers from all/many sides at once this will eventually cause the shields to fail by overload. the time needed for such a feat could range from hours to days, depending on the target performance and the conditions in which the battle is joined. it should be noted that the energy levels of the laser is not relevant to the time required, but rather the beams hitting the bubble at the same time and the time of exposure. in other words, all you need is to just get the laser powerfull enough so the shield would consider it a threat and then conserve the rest of your energy.

    good luck in holding the ship still and surounded for all that time though. laying a siedge on an active target would require extreame superiority in numbers AND some form of a tractor beam. even in such conditions the fed vessel will still be fully combat capable and firing like mad at you.
    i wonder how they ever hope to escape the 1000 tractorbeams of the ds2. combine that with lets say 1/4 of it's tl's (being a globe it can't fire all at the same target) and about 12000tie's swurling around. and ofcourse a DS is always acompanied with his fleet of isd's ( fleet is considered 5 ISD's and 1 gravewellprojector) and ofcourse al the tie's from those vessels.

    A st ship will be going nowhere and fire upon thousands of thimes every second. mhhhh don't see this going on for an hour. and still the ds can finaly use his superlaser if it's getting on Vador's nerves

  19. #15099
    Heute der Enteteich... Oli's Avatar
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    How do they compare for range?
    Imperial Navy
    Weapons batteries on cruiser sized vessels and larger, consist of large linear accelerators. These weapons accelerate fusion warheads to an appreciable fraction of the speed of light. The warheads are designed to detonate at predetermined ranges (useful for destroying ordinance), or upon impact with a suffiently solid mass. In ranges of less than 15,000 kilometers, the linear accelerators are augmented by ranks of las/plasma/melta cannons. The addition of these weapons, while less destructive than the linear accelerators, vastly improves the fire power of the ship.
    http://battlefleet-gothic.wikia.com/...eapons_Battery

    15,000 km sounds pretty damn short to me.
    0.05 light-seconds

  20. #15100
    Valued Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oli View Post
    How do they compare for range?

    http://battlefleet-gothic.wikia.com/...eapons_Battery

    15,000 km sounds pretty damn short to me.
    0.05 light-seconds
    And when in ANY episode have we EVER seen a ST ship fire its phasers at a target that's beyond visual range?

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