Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Well for one thing ftl drives are a lot different than stl drives, and the stl drives on the DS are not very good. And also, building the death star took a ton of time, in several years after the first one was destroyed, the second was only somewhat complete.

Anyways nobody really knows what the rate of fire on said superlaser is.

And to be honest WH40k has already destroyed a battlestation much more lethal than the deathstar.

It is called the world engine, created by the necrons, wether it was a planet tranformed to be a star ship, or just a massive star ship is still unknown. But it was easily the size of a planet. No munition could pass through the supermassive shield and no squad could teleport through, and unlike the death star, it was packed with anti ship weaponry so it took on and destroyed fleets of enemy warships single handedly, and second, it's shields resisted solid objects too.

In the end, the Astral Knights space marine chapter all boarded one of their battlebarges and rammed the shield, as a testament to the strength of the barge's shields and the durability of it's armor, it made it through the shield, the barge was doomed, but the space mariens had already boarded their drop pods and thunderhawks and were already on the surface by the time their ship hit the world engine. Through many daring raids, the last 5 space mariens of the chapter disabled the shield and in their last breath destroyed a score of the necron horde.

After that 15 space marine chapters and their star fleets showed up and destroyed the world engine through an apocalyptic orbital barrage. It is a rare day that 15 chapters fight under one campaign, and the show of force is infinitely powerful and there is no force in the universe that can challenge their might.

I would challenge that - I'd love to see them survive a blast of Thalaron Radiation Anything organic in it's path turns to dust

[fedr808]

Yah but A i doubt the rate of fire on that weapon is useful at all. And two, I'd seriously doubt that they would fire the weapon on their own ship when they get boarded. And three, i also doubt that the weapon shoots in anything other than a straight line.

[fedr808]

Worse comes to worse, the necrons would blow it up, they aren't organic. so they are okay.

[Kittamaru]

Yah but A i doubt the rate of fire on that weapon is useful at all. And two, I'd seriously doubt that they would fire the weapon on their own ship when they get boarded. And three, i also doubt that the weapon shoots in anything other than a straight line.

It doesn't matter...

1) The scimitar is mobile - charge the weapon in warp, come out of warp, fire, and warp away

2) How'd their ship get boarded when they're far more agile than anything WH40K has shown?

3) Again, it's agile... if the target moves, it simply turns

My point, though, is that Star Trek doesn't need huge planet-sized battlestations to destroy planets We can do it just fine with a single ship

[Kittamaru]

Worse comes to worse, the necrons would blow it up, they aren't organic. so they are okay.

They aren't organic, but they have organic material, correct? That material now turns to dust

[fedr808]

No, as far as i hve been told, they are all machine, animated by from what i can gather the soulds of the necrontyr (how souls is defined i don't know, but it is not their original organic brain)

[fedr808]

It doesn't matter...

1) The scimitar is mobile - charge the weapon in warp, come out of warp, fire, and warp away

2) How'd their ship get boarded when they're far more agile than anything WH40K has shown?

3) Again, it's agile... if the target moves, it simply turns

My point, though, is that Star Trek doesn't need huge planet-sized battlestations to destroy planets We can do it just fine with a single ship

Well for starters, Ships don't go into warp to attack and than run away otherwise theyd do it all the time, so that options out.

2.) I doubt that ship is more agile than a drop pod, if data could be shot out of the Enterprise by a vacum and hit that ship, so can a drop pod.

3.) What happens when it is dealing with 60 some odd ships? There is no chance that it's shields would stand that long.

4.) In case you forgot on screen it took a ton of time for the superweapon to charge up to fire.

5.) This is all assuming that the ship doesnt get annihalated by the WH40k's weaponry.

[Lord Vasago]

Well for one thing ftl drives are a lot different than stl drives, and the stl drives on the DS are not very good. And also, building the death star took a ton of time, in several years after the first one was destroyed, the second was only somewhat complete.

Anyways nobody really knows what the rate of fire on said superlaser is.

And to be honest WH40k has already destroyed a battlestation much more lethal than the deathstar.

It is called the world engine, created by the necrons, wether it was a planet tranformed to be a star ship, or just a massive star ship is still unknown. But it was easily the size of a planet. No munition could pass through the supermassive shield and no squad could teleport through, and unlike the death star, it was packed with anti ship weaponry so it took on and destroyed fleets of enemy warships single handedly, and second, it's shields resisted solid objects too.

In the end, the Astral Knights space marine chapter all boarded one of their battlebarges and rammed the shield, as a testament to the strength of the barge's shields and the durability of it's armor, it made it through the shield, the barge was doomed, but the space mariens had already boarded their drop pods and thunderhawks and were already on the surface by the time their ship hit the world engine. Through many daring raids, the last 5 space mariens of the chapter disabled the shield and in their last breath destroyed a score of the necron horde.

After that 15 space marine chapters and their star fleets showed up and destroyed the world engine through an apocalyptic orbital barrage. It is a rare day that 15 chapters fight under one campaign, and the show of force is infinitely powerful and there is no force in the universe that can challenge their might.

don't really know this wh40k but it sounds cool

[Oli]

Avoid at all cost: if only for the sake of your wallet.
Recommended far more highly (at least by me ): Stargrunt II

[fedr808]

Oli's right, way too expensive, their website is www.games-workshop.com click on warhammer 40000

[fedr808]

it took 15 chapters to destroy the planet/battlestation, do you thinkk ST could stand up to 1,000?

[Kittamaru]

Well for starters, Ships don't go into warp to attack and than run away otherwise theyd do it all the time, so that options out.

We have seen this before... but why do that if you know you're able to overpower the opponent? Lol...

2.) I doubt that ship is more agile than a drop pod, if data could be shot out of the Enterprise by a vacum and hit that ship, so can a drop pod.

Uhm... you realize at that point both ships were nearly disabled, right?

3.) What happens when it is dealing with 60 some odd ships? There is no chance that it's shields would stand that long.

They'd last plenty long because I'd bet 95% of the Warhammer weapons fire wouldn't hit...

4.) In case you forgot on screen it took a ton of time for the superweapon to charge up to fire.

Yes, it did. But there is nothing saying they couldn't use that while cloaked

5.) This is all assuming that the ship doesnt get annihalated by the WH40k's weaponry.

As for point #5, you have yet to state ANYTHING that even begins to indicate a level of firepower able to penetrate a trek shield... so yeah.

[Kittamaru]

it took 15 chapters to destroy the planet/battlestation, do you thinkk ST could stand up to 1,000?

Sure they could. Again, as I said

1) you have yet to prove they have even a snowballs chance of hitting a Trek ship at high-impulse speeds, much less warp.

2) You have yet to provide any evidence WH40Ks weapons would have ANY effect on a Star Trek shield... given how bulky and large their armor is, I don't see why their other technology would be more advanced...

[fedr808]

Well you have yet to prove that WH40k tech could not penetrate the shields, and that it could not hit a high impulse craft, which really isnt all that difficult with guided missiles that fly a few times faster than said craft.

And the reason why your trek ships dont pop in and out of warp at every chance theyve got is so easy to explain, jumping into warp requires a crapload of power, so much that if it drops out right after it goes to warp it has little power for weapons or that matter shields.

Lets pretend that all scifi shields are the same because considering that there is no actual real life physics that would allow us to create a real life shield, all of our arguements with shields are kind of idiotic considering there is no real life standard for shield strength.

For all you know, the battlebarges shields would be impenetrable to ST weaponry or vice versa. There is really no other proof to the contrary.

So, can we just assume that the shields are the same strength or that the shields for all intensive purposes are down and there is no shield factor? Because otherwise this is comparing apples to oranges.

So, from here on in, lets pretend that all Star trek and warhammer STARSHIPS (not infantry) have shields of equal power okay?

[fedr808]

As for point #5, you have yet to state ANYTHING that even begins to indicate a level of firepower able to penetrate a trek shield... so yeah.

I love how you argue the fact that 95% of WH40k weaponry would miss based off of NOTHING.

Im sure you would really know that the number is 95%. So what exactly are you basing your bullshit claim off of?

Well considering that the STANDARD weaponry on a WH40k ship can destroy a planet i think were well off. No ship in ST comes with specialized planet killing weaponry STANDARD theres only a handful that can, and they cant be at a thousand battles at once.

[Oli]

If it's any help to one side or the other (I suspect NOT the pro-40K'ers) when the first edition came out I wrote to Rick Priestly (the main author), pointing out a few errors and his reply was basically: we couldn't care less about scientific or factual errors, all we're interested in getting a game out of it.
The ONLY consistency they want to maintain is in playability, if that conflicts with ANYTHING else then the "anything else" is knowingly and willingly sacrificed.

[Kittamaru]

Well you have yet to prove that WH40k tech could not penetrate the shields, and that it could not hit a high impulse craft, which really isnt all that difficult with guided missiles that fly a few times faster than said craft.

Burden of proof is on you, as you are the one claiming kinetic-based weapons are a threat

And the reason why your trek ships dont pop in and out of warp at every chance theyve got is so easy to explain, jumping into warp requires a crapload of power, so much that if it drops out right after it goes to warp it has little power for weapons or that matter shields.

Actually, micro-warp jumps are common practice... used multiple times through TNG and DS9...

Lets pretend that all scifi shields are the same because considering that there is no actual real life physics that would allow us to create a real life shield, all of our arguements with shields are kind of idiotic considering there is no real life standard for shield strength.

Actually, there is, and it has been done I don't expect you to understand most of the reports on the experiments, but here's one of the more simpler ones, posted on MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27811652/

For all you know, the battlebarges shields would be impenetrable to ST weaponry or vice versa. There is really no other proof to the contrary.

Sure there is - Star Trek has encountered, and defeated, weapons and threats similar to what we see in WH40K (kinetic and heat based weapons). Where as WH40K has NEVER run into matter/antimatter warheads or phaser weaponry

So, can we just assume that the shields are the same strength or that the shields for all intensive purposes are down and there is no shield factor? Because otherwise this is comparing apples to oranges.

Again, no - you're just trying to make it more difficult

So, from here on in, lets pretend that all Star trek and warhammer STARSHIPS (not infantry) have shields of equal power okay?

No, I'd not agree to that because 1) it'd be stupid to do so and 2) it's utterly wrong

[Kittamaru]

I love how you argue the fact that 95% of WH40k weaponry would miss based off of NOTHING.

Im sure you would really know that the number is 95%. So what exactly are you basing your bullshit claim off of?

Well considering that the STANDARD weaponry on a WH40k ship can destroy a planet i think were well off. No ship in ST comes with specialized planet killing weaponry STANDARD theres only a handful that can, and they cant be at a thousand battles at once.

Yes, but tell me... is the average planet moving ALMOST 9/10th the speed of FUCKING LIGHT?

NO, IT ISN'T! Use your damn brain before you open your gaping howler of a mouth!

At Impulse, in combat situations, Star Trek ships have shown the ability to exceed .8c (80%) the speed of light, with some reaching 90%! GOOD LUCK hitting that with any sub-relativistic weapon!

[antaran_1979]

I thought he was talking about the Scimitar taking the Ent-E out of warp in the first few hits. We have too many side conversations going on here

we are talking both actually. 2 hits in the secondary hull, droped E-E out of warp, 2 shots destroyed each of the DSs

[antaran_1979]

I've been going Federation vs Empire for the most part as we know more about the Fed technology...

And again, the Scimitar beat up on the Ent-E so badly because of 4 key points:

1) .....

dude, E-E had no realistic hope of defeating the Scimitar while it was cloacked. the only hope they had was the fact Shinzon wanted Picard alive. c'mon man, 57 RP2 disruptor banks? 20+ photon torpedo launchers? agility of the E-E and 5+ times the size? it's like figting 5 or more warbirds at the same time. even without the fire-while-cloacked thingy it takes a tactical genious to operate/command the E-E and mediocre dudes in charge of the competition. in a free far all no limitation duel the Scimitar could destroy the E-E without the cloack i think, allthough it would largely depend on who gets the first shot. if E-E could get those quatums into the Scimitar first, they might stand achance.