Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

holodecks simulate matter in 2 ways, both light and force fields, but also using replicators. in essence sometimes holo object can be real and taken out of the holodeck.

Which is why you can eat FOOD and drink WATER on the holodeck and it'll keep you alive

[Kittamaru]

2. Kitt it should be mentioned that Feds could not withstand being inside star's corona before for long before metphasics were discovered. the klingons fought in the corona but they also used the flare mechanism to destroy the opisng birs of prey.

3. this is the first time i hear of this. when did this hapen? warp field is the base of the warping mechanism. how can a ship go to warp without one?

4. again. they do stand a chance. personal shields are not on the level of star ship shields and are difinitly not metaphasic shields. even if they can withstand the heet ray, you can alway aim for the enviroment, cause shrapnel and plasma leaks and damage the shields indirectly.

1) I know, but it shows the ships able to withstand that kind of heat and radiation... and I HIGHLY doubt even a Super-Duper-Mega-Multi-Twin-Linked-Melta of doom could put out as much heat and energy as a star...

2) In an alternate timeline in 2374, the USS Voyager was forced to engage warp drive while the structural integrity field was still down, in order to escape the Krenim weapon ship. As a result, many of the outer hull plates were torn from the ship. (VOY: "Year of Hell")

My bad, it was the Structural Integrity Field, not the Warp Field. Still an impressive feat though

3) I'm not saying just personal shields though Antaran. Why not use a ground based shield relay? Like something like what Soran used in ST: Generations to keep Picard out?

[Kittamaru]

in red

It isn't so much they CAN'T replicated DS9... they could (and have to to keep it online).

It's a Bajoran Station... 1, it isn't all that great to be honest. DS9 was just sorta a "right place right time" kinda thing, so they used it. Second... I think it has something to do with it being Bajoran... I dont' know off hand but I figure the UFP isn't big on stealing others technology :P

[Kittamaru]

ok but where the shields disabled? I mean was is directly on the hull or did the shields take most of the destuctive power away?

Well, the Enterprise fought the Scimitar without main power at all... the M/AM reactor went offline after the first few, well placed shots. So she didn't have her regenerative shielding systems, and Phaser banks were probably charging at 3/4 speed at best.

And yeah, the shields were down. By that point they didn't have much of anything left, heh.

I wager if the Enterprise had made it to the fleet (as small as it was) it would have been a very, very different fight Especially if my hypothesis about the nebula class they listed was right (sensors pod able to detect and relay info about the Scimitar thru it's cloak)

[fedr808]

Kitt, the shields tht are found on a starship and personal defence shields are two totally different things.

All shields can only take so much punishment before they fail. The more powerful the weapon, the more punishment. And a lascannon is an epicly powerful weapon. Plus, if the most ships u can get into a fight is 2,000, the space marines still have 39,000 vessels at their disposal, and all of those ships are new and active, and all of those ships are top of the line, and all of those ships have the most experianced crew in the Imperium, and all of them have the most devastating firepower known to man.

Would you like to know how completely effective a battle barge is? Imagine earth to be covered with a massive shield, the likes of which no weapon could ever hope to penetrate in a hundred years. The strength of the battlebarges shield and hull can ram that shield and break through it. And yes something in WH40k has happened like this where the Astral Knight's battle barge rammed the Necron World engine's shield and pierced it and went through it.

All of your arguements are based off of the idea that I cannot take down your shields. And when push comes to shove, I'll just ram your ass, and once my terminators are on your ship, you are doomed. Even worse if they are the tyranids.

And if you have no shields, my melta guns will slice and dice your hull. And with 39,000 ships at my disposal, i am totally willing to ram any ship.

[Lord Vasago]

If this Nebula class has this sensor pods why does Picard say that the Scimitar could destroy every vessel before they even knew what hit them. Then why is Earth itself threatend?
In my opinion they where very lucky than it was a clone of picard. and how did he get the right fire solution on the enterprise to knock down it systems in his first attack.
in the end it was picards tactical knowhow that saved the day.
they were very lucky, very lucky indeed.

[antaran_1979]

didn't see a UFP station in action yet. anyone a nice Youtube link????

come to think of it, neighter have i. we'ce heard of it, but we haven't seen them. actually we have seen them but not in action. BTW, DS9 is not Bajoran, it's Cardasian, you can see it from the architecture

[antaran_1979]

ok but where the shields disabled? I mean was is directly on the hull or did the shields take most of the destuctive power away?

it also depends from case to case. the saucer pentration was done with a colapsing/colapsed shield. in wreth og Khan, most of the battle was with eighter shields down or disabled from the Mutara nebula. Odisey was fighting Jem'Hadar ships that bypassed the shield entirely. Durass chicks had Jordi's visor transmite the shield frequencies effectivly bypassing them. Sovereign's bridge module was destroyed when the ship was practicaly disabled.

[antaran_1979]

in red

why would they replicate DS9? they have their own stations, far more compatible with UFP tech. if you wach the early DS9 episodes, you'd see how much truble they had adapting it. it was a cardasian station, stripped down from anything of worth. they basicly rebuild it. and later on rearmed it.

[antaran_1979]

She went back in time in Violation of the Temporal Prime Directive... basicly, she did it because she couldn't stand the fact that Voyager lost so many people on it's way back home.

And yeah, the leap in tech is tremendous... which is why those TransPhasic Torps and Ablative Armor is in Starfleet Lockdown

i never really liked that Janeway chick. what she did was unforgivable. the Feds finally fot their second golden era and she risked it all by going back through time. not to save the galaxy or even Earth, but a single woman.

[antaran_1979]

1) I know, but it shows the ships able to withstand that kind of heat and radiation... and I HIGHLY doubt even a Super-Duper-Mega-Multi-Twin-Linked-Melta of doom could put out as much heat and energy as a star...

2) In an alternate timeline in 2374, the USS Voyager was forced to engage warp drive while the structural integrity field was still down, in order to escape the Krenim weapon ship. As a result, many of the outer hull plates were torn from the ship. (VOY: "Year of Hell")

My bad, it was the Structural Integrity Field, not the Warp Field. Still an impressive feat though

3) I'm not saying just personal shields though Antaran. Why not use a ground based shield relay? Like something like what Soran used in ST: Generations to keep Picard out?

1. for a limited amount of time yes, but not indefinitly.

2.dude, there is a big difference betwean SIF and Warp fields, but i see your point. still warp is at the bottom of the food chain as far as FTL goes on these boards.

3.cause we are discussing ground combat and this involves streetfights, entranching, camophlage, drops behind enemy lines, rapid deployments, blitzkrieg...

[antaran_1979]

1.Kitt, the shields tht are found on a starship and personal defence shields are two totally different things.

2.All shields can only take so much punishment before they fail. The more powerful the weapon, the more punishment. And a lascannon is an epicly powerful weapon.
3. Plus, if the most ships u can get into a fight is 2,000, the space marines still have 39,000 vessels at their disposal, and all of those ships are new and active

4.I'll just ram your ass, and once my terminators are on your ship, you are doomed. Even worse if they are the tyranids.

And if you have no shields, my melta guns will slice and dice your hull. And with 39,000 ships at my disposal, i am totally willing to ram any ship.

1. agreed, especially metaphasic shields. these have only been confirmed as ship mounted.

2.partially true. in ST shield this means they will eventually fail even if they ar imune to the weapon fire directly. it is simply a metter of exhaustion. eighter the emmiters or the genrator will eventually oveload, run out of fuel, burn up the relays....it might take a while, but eventually it will happen. even in TNG we have witnised how low level threats were able to eventualy breach the shield if acting persistantly for an indefinite amount of time.

3.i would not har line the max amount of ships UFP could muster for a conflict. it would be largely speculative. in one engagement during Dominion Wars they formed an assult fleet of over 600 ships my using elements of 3 different fleets, at the same time being cautios of not thining their deffences to much. but even so, probably 35-50% of those ships were Mirandas, light cruisers recomisioned as destroyers.

4.aye ramming is always a viable alternative if your ships are agile anough or survivable anough. at least as agile as the oponent. this is why Jem Hadar "Bug Ships" (esentialy frigates or light desroyers) used it against Klingons (mostly Vor'cha attack cruisers and destroyer sized Bird's of prey) and even on Feds every now and then (as in Odisey's case).

[antaran_1979]

If this Nebula class has this sensor pods why does Picard say that the Scimitar could destroy every vessel before they even knew what hit them. Then why is Earth itself threatend?
In my opinion they where very lucky than it was a clone of picard. and how did he get the right fire solution on the enterprise to knock down it systems in his first attack.
in the end it was picards tactical knowhow that saved the day.
they were very lucky, very lucky indeed.

i think Jordi said nothing in Feds arsenal could detect the Scimitar. they gathered those 10 ships in a hurry to provide more shooting targets for Shinzon, hoping he'd go for Picard. seing how that task force was composed of at least 1 Galaxy and 1 Defiant, i think they would be more then enough for the Scimitar had the plan worked.

as for the final outcome, yes it was Picard's intimate knowlidge of himself and lots of luck that won the day. had Shinzon wanted the E-E destroyed he could have done it. but he wanted it disabled. still i think 2 sovereigns could have mached the Scimitar. or at least 2 sovereigns and something way cheaper would be a sure win.

[Kittamaru]

Kitt, the shields tht are found on a starship and personal defence shields are two totally different things.

All shields can only take so much punishment before they fail. The more powerful the weapon, the more punishment. And a lascannon is an epicly powerful weapon. Plus, if the most ships u can get into a fight is 2,000, the space marines still have 39,000 vessels at their disposal, and all of those ships are new and active, and all of those ships are top of the line, and all of those ships have the most experianced crew in the Imperium, and all of them have the most devastating firepower known to man.

Dude, I gave you the direct information about the las cannon... it's a MAN PORTABLE weapon for crying out loud... if it was that powerful, that's all Space Marines would need to use...

And again, prove to me even one of your weapons is a threat... show me how they work and I'll tell you why they aren't a threat. I'm jsut going off what I can find myself.

Would you like to know how completely effective a battle barge is? Imagine earth to be covered with a massive shield, the likes of which no weapon could ever hope to penetrate in a hundred years. The strength of the battlebarges shield and hull can ram that shield and break through it. And yes something in WH40k has happened like this where the Astral Knight's battle barge rammed the Necron World engine's shield and pierced it and went through it.

Fanboy wank, plain and simple. Do you know why? I'll tell you - because, simply put, WH40K weapons are inherently weaker than Star Trek weapons, especially against Trek style shielding. Why? Because at high-warp speeds, the kinetic impact of a speck of DUST has more damage potential than a dozen heavy bolter rounds... it's simple physics. The Navigational Deflector can easily handle those, and the shields can just as easily. What possibly makes you think your weapons will have any effect? I mean... kinetic weapons went out of style pre-tos...

All of your arguements are based off of the idea that I cannot take down your shields. And when push comes to shove, I'll just ram your ass, and once my terminators are on your ship, you are doomed. Even worse if they are the tyranids.

No... and no. Oh, and no again.

1) Good luck ramming thru my shields... if anything, you MIGHT succeed in pushing my ship around.

2) Good luck hitting a FAR more agile ship...

3) IF you get Terminators on board, I'll simply teleport them into space and blow them to hell.

And if you have no shields, my melta guns will slice and dice your hull. And with 39,000 ships at my disposal, i am totally willing to ram any ship.

Go ahead and try... it won't work. You can rant and rave all you like... WH40K is not a threat. Period. And quit with the 2k max ship theory - it's a load of crap. There are at least 2,000 known starships of frigate class or higher at the end of the Dominion war... not including carriers, support vessels, strike craft, scouts, shuttles, and dreadnaughts...

[Kittamaru]

Star Trek Weapon Systems:

Phasers:
Phasers, or PHASed Energy Rectification, are the primary sub-light weapon used by most advanced space-faring races, most notably the United Federation of Planets, for ship-to-ship and ship-to-ground combat.

The first phasers were designed to replaced primitive EM weapons such has lasers and particle beam accelerators. Phasers and EM weapons both share a common design lineage in practical directed energy devices created for early starship to clear dust and small meteorites from their flight path. Phasers in their current form came into wide spread service during the 2200's, with most Starfleet ships being equipped with them by the 2250's. Today phasers are used on board starships to place a high energy beam on a hostile target's hull in order to damage or destroy the vessel. Phasers can also be configured for multiple non-destructive purposes such as low energy scans or drilling operations.

The energy released by phasers is created by the rapid nadion effect (RNE); nadions are subatomic particles that interact with certain types of superconducting crystals called fushigi-no-umi. When the nadions interact with the crystal, the strong atomic force is freed from the nuclei of the crystals' atoms; the strong force is then transferred to the phaser's output beam.

The basic component of the ship's phasers is the emitter. The phaser emitter is composed of an EPS power system, a prefire chamber, and several emitter crystals to allow discharge in multiple directions. A couple hundred phaser emitters may be arranged linearly to form large phaser arrays.

The phaser emitters are powered by the ships EPS system, when the firing sequence starts, plasma from the EPS conduits is discharged into the plasma distribution manifold. Plasma flows from the manifold to each of the phaser emitters where it enters the prefire chamber. In the prefire chamber the plasma energy undergoes an EM spectrum shift and is released to the emitter crystals to create the RNE effect. Once the energy is discharged from the emitter crystal it flows into the neighboring emitter due to force coupling effects. Energy from each emitter segment converges to a final discharge point where the phaser beam is released. The starship's firing computer can control the direction and power level of the beam emitted by controlling the flow of EPS plasma of each emitter and the direction it is released to the emitter crystal.

Photon Torpedo:
Photon Torpedoes are the primary faster than light, FTL, weapon used by Starfleet onboard starships and starbases. Photon torpedoes were first introduced into Starfleet service in 2215 to replace earlier photonic torpedoes and nuclear warheads.

Since their introduction there have been two primary torpedo designs. The first design was a 1:1 mater-antimatter explosive device. These torpedoes contained microfussion initiators that fired frozen deuterium slugs into magnetically suspended anti-deuterium. After briefly being held by the magnetic containment, the matter/antimatter annihilation energy was released powering the warhead. These first warheads had a maximum range of 750,000 km; even though powered by a matter/antimatter reaction, the warheads had a very low yield as there was not 100% annihilation. As a result these torpedoes were only used for defense purposes.

The current photon torpedo design is a variable matter/antimatter warhead design that was first introduced in 2271. In these new torpedoes the matter and antimatter are magnetically suspended in thousands of packets that increase the surface area of the reaction when the two mix. The resulting complete annihilation, when combined, multiplies the yield of the warhead to 18.5 isotons. The range of these new torpedoes has also increased to 4,050,000 km.

The standard Starfleet torpedo design consist of a 2.1 meter long elliptical enclosure containing deuterium and anti-deuterium storage tanks containing a maximum of 1.5 kilograms each; the storage tanks are connected to a central combiner tank. The torpedo casing also contains magnetic containment equipment, guidance and targeting systems, detonation assemblies, and a warp sustainer engine. If the ship is traveling at warp velocities, the warp sustainer engine is capable of transferring a ships warp field to the torpedo when fired to allow the weapon to move at FTL speeds; though it can not effectively increase the speed of the torpedo much beyond the ships original velocity. The sustainer engine is also not capable sending the torpedo into warp if the ship was traveling at impulse velocities when fired.

Quanum Torpedo:
The quantum torpedo is Starfleet’s replacement for the standard photon torpedo aboard starships.

The quantum torpedo operates through super string theory, specifically zero point energy, where an eleven dimensional membrane is created and twisted into a form of a Genus 1 then pinched off from the background vacuum energy. This act calls into existence a large number of new sub-atomic particles and freeing energy used to power the warhead. This process is similar to the event that created the universe in the big bang.

Testing of the quantum torpedo first took place on 2355 under the surface of an abandon moon. The energy output of the device was calculated to be 52.3 isotons, more than twice the theoretical maximum output of a standard photon torpedo.

The design of the quantum torpedo consists of the zero-point field reaction chamber with an EM initiator attached to one end of the chamber along with an EM rectifier, waveguide bundle, subspace field generator, and continuum distortion emitter. The zero point reaction is powered by an uprated photon torpedo warhead with a yield of 21.8 isotons. The energy of the antimatter detonation is funneled into the initiator where the membrane reaction occurs.

The quantum torpedo is currently only being used aboard Defiant and Sovereign class vessels due to the difficult in manufacturing each torpedo.

[Kittamaru]

If this Nebula class has this sensor pods why does Picard say that the Scimitar could destroy every vessel before they even knew what hit them. Then why is Earth itself threatend?
In my opinion they where very lucky than it was a clone of picard. and how did he get the right fire solution on the enterprise to knock down it systems in his first attack.
in the end it was picards tactical knowhow that saved the day.
they were very lucky, very lucky indeed.

1) I said I'm assuming that was the point of the Nebula class ship - it's advanced sensors and scientific abilities would better allow it to analyze the Scimitar's cloak and hopefully find a way to penetrate it.

As for how he was able to hit he Big-E so hard so easily:

1) They were at warp - I don't think they anticipated being attacked at that moment until it was far too late. Remember - due to the incredible power drain, Regenerative Shielding cannot be used whilst at warp - so far, only a handful of ships have reactors potent enough to support it (those being the Prometheus Class and the Sovereign class) at all.

2) The Enterprise was in orbit over Romulus for, I believe, 72 hours before the Scimitar decloaked... plenty of time for EXTENSIVE scans.

[Kittamaru]

1. for a limited amount of time yes, but not indefinitly.

2.dude, there is a big difference betwean SIF and Warp fields, but i see your point. still warp is at the bottom of the food chain as far as FTL goes on these boards.

3.cause we are discussing ground combat and this involves streetfights, entranching, camophlage, drops behind enemy lines, rapid deployments, blitzkrieg...

1) I know, but I doubt even a Multi-Melta comes close to what a Star gives off, which is my point

2) Yeah, my bad XD

3) True, but how long do you think it'd take them to set up these kinds of shields? Hell, personally, if ground combat become the norm, I'd bet StarFleet Tactical Command would find a way to put a bubble shield on a ground vehicle, much like the Gungans used... just without the problem of letting people walk right thru em

[Kittamaru]

BTW -

http://www.st-wiki.com/wiki/Daedalus_Class

The Daedalus class, designed before the formation of the Federation, and mothballed less than 40 years after the Federation formed, used Laser Cannons (Las Cannons) as it's primary weapon...

And that ship would not even be considered a THREAT against a modern Starship... hell, even the NX-01 would have laughed at it!

[Saquist]

1) I said I'm assuming that was the point of the Nebula class ship - it's advanced sensors and scientific abilities would better allow it to analyze the Scimitar's cloak and hopefully find a way to penetrate it.

As for how he was able to hit he Big-E so hard so easily:

1) They were at warp - I don't think they anticipated being attacked at that moment until it was far too late. Remember - due to the incredible power drain, Regenerative Shielding cannot be used whilst at warp - so far, only a handful of ships have reactors potent enough to support it (those being the Prometheus Class and the Sovereign class) at all.

2) The Enterprise was in orbit over Romulus for, I believe, 72 hours before the Scimitar decloaked... plenty of time for EXTENSIVE scans.

It was 14 or 17 hours.

[Lord Vasago]

1) I said I'm assuming that was the point of the Nebula class ship - it's advanced sensors and scientific abilities would better allow it to analyze the Scimitar's cloak and hopefully find a way to penetrate it.

As for how he was able to hit he Big-E so hard so easily:

1) They were at warp - I don't think they anticipated being attacked at that moment until it was far too late. Remember - due to the incredible power drain, Regenerative Shielding cannot be used whilst at warp - so far, only a handful of ships have reactors potent enough to support it (those being the Prometheus Class and the Sovereign class) at all.

2) The Enterprise was in orbit over Romulus for, I believe, 72 hours before the Scimitar decloaked... plenty of time for EXTENSIVE scans.

1)they where fleeing. so wouldn't they be on alert???? sound logical to me. in my opinion the ent-e was fully prepared for an encounter. but yes they we're suprised the scimitar attack in warp and was right on there tail.
but still shields would be at max.

2) that doesn't play in your favour. so scans show the weak spots. remember they only wanted the ent-e cripled not destroyed. it could have been over in minutes. so how powerfull your shields may be in the end it doesn't really matter.
now how's scanning technology for this warhammer ?? not to mention SW.