Star Wars vs Star Trek

**Kittamaru** · 03-03-09, 07:39 AM

That's a good point antaran... I forgot about that - at such high relativistic speeds, nearly any particle (micro or macro) would hit the ship at near-pure EM band... I know the Ent-E's shields protect (as in, invulnerable to) almost 40% of the EM Band... so I doubt any laser, no matter how strong, would really give it trouble.

**fedr808** · 03-03-09, 08:05 AM

You know.

I just figured out why this arguement is pointless

Warhammer 40,000 really doesnt give any specifics on hor their technology works.

Most of it has been forgotten.

One such things is a super rare conversion beamer where it converts mass straight into energy and forms an explosion. There are no specifics on how it works.

as far as we know, the lasers could work in one of a million different ways. Maybe they can be deflected by shields for the reasons you said, or maybe, shields are useless.

In reality, we really dont know much about the technology of wh40k we really only know it's affects.

**antaran_1979** · 03-03-09, 08:16 AM

at least the nav.deflectors are most likely imune to the high-end frequencies of the EM band (UV-gamma), probably even in broader range. the regular deflectors (if they follow the same pattern) should be imune as long as they are holding, however because of the defocused nature (unlike their nav. cousins) prolonged exposure or an enveloping threat could eventually cause the grid to fail by simple overloading. this is not the case with other threats however. in example, the nadion burst could destabilise the shield effect (as witnised with phaser mines or overloaded phasers) and other attacs could simply exploit the shield modulation delay to cause some damage despite the shield being still up, simply because of the randomness of the process (like a nuclear-thermonuclear-antimatter blasts or kinetic-semikinetic impacts).

not to mention that a cloaked ship would be compleatly invulnerable to lasers by default as long as it is cloaked (shield or not)

**fedr808** · 03-03-09, 08:18 AM

This is all assuming that the lascannons works as you guys think they do and considering thats a 1 in probably 1 million chance unlikely.

Also, in WH40k, lascannons rip all forms of shielding to shreds. nothing can even resist one shot of a lascannon.

A ship must rely on superior armor, not it's shield.

**antaran_1979** · 03-03-09, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by fedr808

You know.

I just figured out why this arguement is pointless

Warhammer 40,000 really doesnt give any specifics on hor their technology works.

Most of it has been forgotten.

One such things is a super rare conversion beamer where it converts mass straight into energy and forms an explosion. There are no specifics on how it works.

as far as we know, the lasers could work in one of a million different ways. Maybe they can be deflected by shields for the reasons you said, or maybe, shields are useless.

In reality, we really dont know much about the technology of wh40k we really only know it's affects.

that conversion beam sounds very similar to the disruptive effect of many "desintegrator" based weapons. even nadions produce similar effects only are more environement friendly by releasing the energy from the nuclear bonds in some non-interactive way (neutrinos have been sujested but i doubt it, simply because neutrinos have never been indicative of weapons discharge). maybe the nadions "take away" the that energy, or maybe it "phases out" during the transit of nadions through normal matter.
as for lasers if the are lasers, it matters not how they work. you can produce it in many ways but it is basicly a bundle of coherent photons

**antaran_1979** · 03-03-09, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by fedr808

This is all assuming that the lascannons works as you guys think they do and considering thats a 1 in probably 1 million chance unlikely.

Also, in WH40k, lascannons rip all forms of shielding to shreds. nothing can even resist one shot of a lascannon.

A ship must rely on superior armor, not it's shield.

there are many forms of shielding. you would help if you provide data on the nature of the shields in use. are they energy screens, jammers, plasma shields, EM shields, heat shields....?

**fedr808** · 03-03-09, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by antaran_1979

that conversion beam sounds very similar to the disruptive effect of many "desintegrator" based weapons. even nadions produce similar effects only are more environement friendly by releasing the energy from the nuclear bonds in some non-interactive way (neutrinos have been sujested but i doubt it, simply because neutrinos have never been indicative of weapons discharge). maybe the nadions "take away" the that energy, or maybe it "phases out" during the transit of nadions through normal matter.
as for lasers if the are lasers, it matters not how they work. you can produce it in many ways but it is basicly a bundle of coherent photons

Desintigrators do what there names suggest.

A conversion beamer actually makes an explosion from matter. And it doesnt even haev to be matter, a shield would also explode.

If i hit lets say the enterprise with one, its armor would literally cause a massive explosion.

**antaran_1979** · 03-03-09, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by fedr808

Desintigrators do what there names suggest.

A conversion beamer actually makes an explosion from matter. And it doesnt even haev to be matter, a shield would also explode.

If i hit lets say the enterprise with one, its armor would literally cause a massive explosion.

you seam to confuse armour with shields

**Kittamaru** · 03-03-09, 07:58 PM

Lets remember one thing fedr - we don't know how ANY of the technology works... it's all supposition based on what we've seen and/or read in books and on screen.

**fedr808** · 03-04-09, 09:25 AM

Seriously, the lascannons in warhammer 40k for example.

When we see the word laser we think directed energy weapon.

What if a lascannon uses something else?

**Kittamaru** · 03-04-09, 04:10 PM

Than they'd call it a plasma cannon, or a particle projection cannon, or a "insert particle type here" cannon :P

Logical, no?

**fedr808** · 03-04-09, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Kittamaru

Than they'd call it a plasma cannon, or a particle projection cannon, or a "insert particle type here" cannon :P

Logical, no?

not really.

What i mean is kind of like that line in Romeo and Juliet "Would a rose smell so sweet by any other name?"

Meaning that, a lascannon, could possibly be a different kind of weapon than you think.
If a lascannon can wreck through the different kinds of shields in WH40k, and we know shields protect very well against high energy lasers, than it must wokr off of a different principled for it to still be so efficient.

Right now, we are comparing apples to oranges.

**Kittamaru** · 03-04-09, 05:43 PM

Then why, pray tell, would they call it a LAS-cannon... you have to go by the data we have at hand...

**antaran_1979** · 03-05-09, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by fedr808

not really.

What i mean is kind of like that line in Romeo and Juliet "Would a rose smell so sweet by any other name?"

Meaning that, a lascannon, could possibly be a different kind of weapon than you think.
If a lascannon can wreck through the different kinds of shields in WH40k, and we know shields protect very well against high energy lasers, than it must wokr off of a different principled for it to still be so efficient.

Right now, we are comparing apples to oranges.

what different kinds of shields to be precise?
you must be less vague on this to be taken seriously. in example Dune's shields react violently when hit by lascannons, but both shields and lasers in dune are Holtzman effect based, that being space-folding based. on the other hands an EM shield would work well against conventional laser, but would be transperant against neutrinos, neutrons or other electricaly neutral particles. plasma shields would be vulnerable to EMPs. different strokes for different folks dude. and you said that in WH conventional shields are not used because they are not effective, so armor is the principal means of protection. what kind of "conventional" shields are those?

**fedr808** · 03-05-09, 07:59 AM

Think about a race being older than the borg, than any race in ST, theyve figured out conventional shielding, and they dont use it.

They do have super heavy shields but they are rarer.

Why am i still here? im argueing apples to oranges.

**antaran_1979** · 03-05-09, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by fedr808

Think about a race being older than the borg, than any race in ST, theyve figured out conventional shielding, and they dont use it.

They do have super heavy shields but they are rarer.

Why am i still here? im argueing apples to oranges.

i've just imagined one and it is extinct, whiped out by the new more creative races. if the race is ancient (and moreover unchanged for a while) it is usually a bad sign. take a look at the Borg. they are 10s or maybe 100s of 1000s of years old and yet they suck. they are barely more advanced then most of the races in ST. their only real streingth (besides adaptation) is that there is a huge number of them.

just look at it this way. for a hoplite a conventional shield would be the aspis. but for a kelt it might be the theuros. for the roman it would be the scutum. they are all different in structure, apearance and use. they have different advantages.

**Kittamaru** · 03-05-09, 09:55 AM

I prefer to use no shield, instead dual-wielding longswords (I did reinactments for a while, quite fun to use full contact open-cell foam weapons

) Gives me a very dangerous tactic that works well for my "beserker" style.

**antaran_1979** · 03-05-09, 10:30 AM

dual wielding longswords? lonswords lonswords or armingswords? even with armingswords it can be uncomftorable, even suicidal

i practice with a 2.4 lbs longsword. 3ft 5in long. i can barely controll it when i use it with one heand. not to mention the grip is clearly ment for hands.

**Kittamaru** · 03-05-09, 01:47 PM

They aren't metal weapons mate

That is their Long Sword... they've got a two handed sword I love though:

The Great Sword - at 52 inches blade length, the total length of this sword is equal my height! (I'm 6 foot even, so 72" tall... this baby is 52" blade on a 20" handle!)

Remember, they're fiberglass cores with open cell foam blades.

Then again, they have these fun things:

8 foot 6 inches total... OUCH!

**antaran_1979** · 03-06-09, 05:59 AM

the first one would apear to be a classical knightly sword or arming sword, a grip that fits on hand, no more then 3ft blade. the second one looks like your typical zweihander grip and pike cleaving size. u try to specialise in classical longsword or perhaps greatsword by some classifications. the blade is betwaen 3ft and 3ft 10in, the grip just enough to acomodite 2 hands, but not designed for a clean 1 handed grip like in the hand and a half swords.