02-25-09, 10:35 AM #14521
Let me explain what Saquist is trying to say:
If you have a starship, able to concentrate immense levels of firepower into a fire zone a few centimeters across... why do you need any large ground force? Take a Galaxy Class dreadnaught for example... it could individually target Space Marines on the ground and, one by one, take them out with shipboard phasers, all while causing little to no collateral damage at all. Granted, we have never seen this ability demonstrated outside of Star Trek (and in Star Trek it was demonstrated a handful of times), which only furthers the idea that Star Trek weapons, while not necessarily the most POWERFUL in terms of energy output, are certainly the most efficient at the job.
You can't honestly believe a Space Marine has a chance of survival against a phaser strike from a StarFleet Dreadnaught, do you?
Now, imagine something more current, like the Sovereign or the Prometheus classes... or even the Defiant. If the Defiant can turn the crust of a planet into molten slag in a matter of minutes... how quickly do you think it'd render a drop-pod army of Space Marines dead an gone?
02-25-09, 11:39 AM #14522
War Hammar, Star Wars and Star Trek have displayed precision fire ability.
The US Governement has no Space Based surgical weapon emplacements.
The point is conceded.
Ground Troops betray a lack of Fleet power.
In SW Ground forces and Fighters are again used in situation where you want to achieve a goal an minimize damage,
That they weren't conceeds Fleet impotence.
Why these aren't needed in ST is becuase ST ship weaponry is much less powerful than the previous two examples. And this observation is based of series and movies. And always based on what we have seen weapns do, not on what a character states.
Star Trek Base weapons are several time more powerful than the Type X phaser emitter. That's up to at least 20 trillion times more effective than a Star Destroyer. Even Defiant has displayed an ability to route enemies no more than 50 times the Type X's firepower. Trek make power an ineffective arguement. It's about ability not how much power.
Even yet, it is illogical to conclude that massive firepower does not allow for scaled appropriate responses. Even you suggested as much in your arguments and now you go against your previous assertions?
02-25-09, 11:43 AM #14523
02-25-09, 12:48 PM #14524
But in the end it doesnt mean that warhammer 40k vessels are weak, it means that they are so epically powerful that a fight between two massive battleships takes more than enough time to land a space marine army to the planet, and also that the two ships are locked in combat for the duration. It merely means there is a near stalemate.
02-25-09, 01:05 PM #14525
It means they are exploitable in some way.
02-25-09, 02:41 PM #14526
The thing is, if WH40K tried to land troops on a Federation planet, one of three things would happen:
A) The drop pod / Thunderhawks would be obliterated by land-based defenses long before landfall was mad
B) The drop pod / Thunderhawk would be obliterated by Starship / Starbase / Orbital defenses long before atmospheric entry was ever made
C) The drop pod / Thunderhawk would obliterate itself as it impacted Planetary Shields.
02-25-09, 02:50 PM #14527
Have you seen new pictures from the Trek Movie.
Apparently there is a shield on a ground based installation.
02-25-09, 06:23 PM #14528
Sure maybe if theyre lucky they can hit a drop pod (keep in mind how insanely fast a drop pod moves and can't be hit by ANYTHING in warhammer 40k, so ST wont have any luck either) And also the fact is that there would be hundreds, maybe even thousands of drop pods.
And the drop pods pierce shields, they use some wierd technology involving phlux and warp tech that basically phases the pod on contact with a shield through the shield (wierd ass tech i know). That's why you really never find shields on bases or ships in warhammer 40k, its just a waste of energy.
And this is all assuming that the planet hasnt met armaggedon at the hands of a single battlebarge, let alone a fleet of them and their cruisers and their frigates. Battlebarges have even been rammed against planetary shields because at some point the shield fails enough to let it through (of course the ship is screwed and is gonna crash and the hole is repaired on the shield) but by that time 1,000 thunderhawks, drop pods, and escape pods would be flying out of the barge making landfall, and considering what utter failures ST is at ground combat, ST troops would be annihalated.
The only part of the whole annihalation of ST forces that is up for debate is what kind of squad kills them first? terminator? tactical? sniper? assault? even an honor guardsmen could make short work of a garrison of ST soldier.
02-25-09, 06:24 PM #14529
02-25-09, 06:29 PM #14530
Well you are screwed, because space marines can carry HANDHELD lascannons and even plasma pistols that will obliterate power armor in a single shot
So imagine your defiant, attacking a battlebarge, and all of the sudden, it has several dozen lascannon batteries pointed up its ass, that ships is screwed beyond belief
Hell even a tactical squad could destroy the defiant if it's shields are that weak. If it takes like half a dozen shots from its own guns to destroy itself, than wait till it meets the firepower of a plazma cannon.
02-25-09, 06:39 PM #14531
Now now Fedr808, you've been good so far, don't go putting words in my mouth...
I'm saying that, if for whatever reason it was needed, I could LOWER the power output of a shipboard phaser to target a SINGLE ground-based space marine and vaporize him. I could also use that same phaser to bore a hole to the core of the planet and detonate said core... bye bye planet.
And no - I haven't seen a single thing in WH that would pose even a mild threat to the Defiant... between it's superior speed and agility, powerful shields, ablative armor, quantum torpedoes, and a pulse-phaser array able to slag an entire planet in minutes... yeah.
As far as hitting the drop pods - unless they travel at a MINIMUM of 3/4 the speed of light... they'd be EASY targets for a phaser strike... remember, in Star Trek: Voyager, they were able to lock on Transporters to a torpedo's detonator and remove it, rendering it impotent. I would imagine locking something as simple as a phaser (when compared, blasting something with a PHASER compared to de-materializing it, moving it, and re-materializing it intact) onto a sub-light drop pod would be easy as the proverbial cake.
As far as destructive power - a handheld class 2 phaser is able to put out a charge capable of vaporizing around a dozen cubic meters of rock... and that's a tiny, concealed-weapon style phaser that only goes up to lvl 8 - imagine what a type 3 hand phaser or a phaser RIFLE could do on, say, level 16 wide-beam...
02-25-09, 09:39 PM #14532
02-25-09, 10:02 PM #14533
Actually against a full barrage from the USS Enterprise assuming twenty phasers and 10 photon torpedoes. The chance of the Average Space marine scout living is 9 in 10 million. For Space Marines it is roughly 5 in 100,000. and for Terminators it is 4 in 1000. Of course this assuming full strength strikes and sequentially to make the marines make their armor check with each strike. It also assume perfect dead on objects twice as large a man while firing through and ECM zone.
Now if it was all at once. The Scout would live 50% of the time that marined 2/3rds and the Terminator 5/6ths
02-26-09, 08:07 AM #14534
02-26-09, 10:15 AM #14535
I'll give you another example - in an episode of TNG, Riker was kidnapped by some people who were manipulating his mind - in the end, he escaped by using his little hand phaser on lvl 16 wide dispersal to obliterate entire sections of the TRITANIUM detention cells. Yes, it drained the phaser in a few short shots, but again - it was a small, easily concealed handheld model.
02-26-09, 10:21 AM #14536
HOWEVER, if you wish to do that - it would mean my level 11 Half-Elf Ranger from D&D 4.0 would be able to penetrate your Scout Marines armor on a regular basis... with a bow and arrow.
See, scott, comparing board games from equivalent data is NOT a good thing...
02-26-09, 01:19 PM #14537
okay, so lets just say for arguements sake that power armor does nothing, just for arguements sakes, and just for now.
Im not implying your right about your ideas that it is pretty much worthless.
Even then, the average space marine is overwhelmingly superior to any star trek officer or soldier on ground battle. They have more experiance, better reflexes, superior strength, agility, and wits. A squad of space mariens could still easily take down star trek officers.
02-26-09, 03:35 PM #14538
That would be true, except for the fact that we have seen basic psionic shielding deflect most (if not all) high-powered ranged weapons in WH40K. Those used by the Eldar are a prime example of this...
Now, imagine what a personal shield would do with those weapons - I'd wager MAYBE some of the heavy artillery would punch thru, but your basic bolter/plasma cannon/sniper rifle would have little to no effect. Especially since, by your admitance, these are projectile and plasma based weapons, which the Federation have encountered numerous times before, then Federation Shielding would be ideal to defeat them.
On the flip side, Phasers and Photon Torpedoes are weapons never before encountered by the Space Marines, so who knows what, IF ANY, effect their armor and/or shields would have on those weapons.
And remember - the Federation is made up of more than just humans - I think seeing a Gorn (4 or so meters tall, 400+ pounds, all muscle...) would be a worthy hand-to-hand adversary
02-27-09, 03:03 AM #14539
an interesting inter-rule debate guys, keep it up
i have one question though, why use landing pods at all, why not simply drop in from orbit in exo-suits or something. not that it would metter from a swarming perspective, but it would make the marines more readily deployable. read "Fall of Hyperion" on what i have in mind. it should be noted that the marines there started the invasion only after Hegemony's fleet was beaten off and it abandoned the defence perimeter.
02-27-09, 05:18 AM #14540
Antaran, the reason for that is, simply put - even with exo-suits, the heat generated by re-entry would flash-fry anyone not in a cryo-contained vessel... even in the current US Space Shuttle, the temperature inside the shuttle raises quite significantly during re-entry, and the outside of the shuttle reaches incredible temperatures. I hesitate to estimate how much insulation there is between the two...
Considering a Space marine's natural bulk... their armor isn't nearly thick enough (or resistant enough to heat if Flamers are effective against them) to make such a feat a possibility
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