Star Wars vs Star Trek

[TW Scott]

Paradox of omnipotence...exactly what is unachievable by an omnipotent being?

However, the fact remains that while Phoenix has never been stated to be omnipotent, Q has - which has been demonstrated.

But only Q has stated he is omnipotent. So you must take it with a grain of salt. After all Palpatine claimed all was going as he had foreseen. Meanwhile Q has not shown any abilities on the level of Dark Pheonix.

But Pheonix has been described as power incarnate, a goddess, omnipotent, all powerful and by many more titles and by beings other than itself.

It's not a matter of trust. Q has visited Picard in the "throes of death" already. How more Abrahamically omnipotent can you get?

Excuse me but you forget there were lifeforms in ST that feed on beings when they are near death as well. Are they Omnipotent? No. Since we know Q is telepathic, can alter the flow of time, and create illusions it is very conceivable that Picard's little near death experience was just a dream while he was on the brink of death.

Who the hell cares? ST v SW thread. X Men is irrelevant. Resistance of this fact is futile.

I was just pointing out that the assessment of Q vs Pheonix is wrong. Q is ruler of his little sandbox, Pheonix is one of the few beings who has seen the universe be reborn. There is no comparison.

[Kittamaru]

Uhm... no. You're taking things out of context.

If you want to play that way:

then .5c as used to describe hyperdrive IS literal, meaning .5c is the max speed hyperdrive can achieve.

This means the Galaxy Far Far Away is a few LY across at most

This also means that, at best, you have sub-light communications.

Eh, like that Scotch? Taking things out of context is FUN isn't it!

[Kittamaru]

Also, if the Phoenix was SO damn powerful... riddle me this:

Why was Professor X able to seal it away for as long as he did?

Why did it need to rest AFTER controlling Jean completely? Doesn't seem very "all powerful"


And Storm is also called a Goddess in X-Men - by her African tribe... remember that one?

[antaran_1979]

1.Yet the transporter has done even weirder things like reverse the age of being be transported. besides compressing a gasseous being would be child play compared to reassembling atom by atonm like a transporter already does.



2.But the Q did not interfere before, hint about, or even show up in person to watch the show. And the only reason the Prophets did a damn thing is their Emissary begged them to and the Dominion was basically traipsing throught their home.

1. why would reconstructing the DNA to the earlier stages of life would be a child play as miniaturising the Calamarean? its not like the creature was compressed it was shrinked!

2. and why would the Q interven in the Dominion War?

[antaran_1979]

But only Q has stated he is omnipotent. So you must take it with a grain of salt. After all Palpatine claimed all was going as he had foreseen. Meanwhile Q has not shown any abilities on the level of Dark Pheonix.

But Pheonix has been described as power incarnate, a goddess, omnipotent, all powerful and by many more titles and by beings other than itself.

bah only the writers can claim eighter for sure. after all does God exist? is He/She really omnipotent? we can discuss metaphysics as much as we'd like and we still won't reach a reasonable conclusion. what wh have is what the writers have shown us. and they have shown us the Q creating realities. are they illusions or "real"? who can say? i might have to rerun "all the good things"....

but in the end it does not mater. there are other creatures in ST then can exterminate (on a level of non-existance) the "minor" races. not just slay them through the Force as Darth Nihilus did, but "erase" them fro existance, thus violating the mass/energy conservation law.

as for Phoenix kicking Q's butt, meh... again who cares? i most certanly would chear for her
after all, Jean Grey is cuter then Q
as long as she does not side with SW

[Enterprise-D]

But only Q has stated he is omnipotent. So you must take it with a grain of salt. After all Palpatine claimed all was going as he had foreseen.

Incorrect. Picard has also stated it - albeit with some chagrin, q has stated it, Quinn as stated it, and Q2 (TNG) and Q2 (VOY) has stated it. De Lancie's Q is not the only one.

Meanwhile Q has not shown any abilities on the level of Dark Pheonix.

Please! That is your opinion, not based in either canon. You merely attack Trek using irrelevant data in order to falsely strengthen your case that SW is superior.

But Pheonix has been described as power incarnate, a goddess, omnipotent, all powerful and by many more titles and by beings other than itself.

So has Storm...does this qualify her as omnipotent?

Excuse me but you forget there were lifeforms in ST that feed on beings when they are near death as well. Are they Omnipotent? No. Since we know Q is telepathic, can alter the flow of time, and create illusions it is very conceivable that Picard's little near death experience was just a dream while he was on the brink of death.

Nothing in the episode indicates that this was a 'dream state', since Doctor Crusher was in a very real fight to revive Picard. And nothing indicates that Q "fed on" Picard. You are ascribing traits to the episode that were simply not there.

I was just pointing out that the assessment of Q vs Pheonix is wrong. Q is ruler of his little sandbox, Pheonix is one of the few beings who has seen the universe be reborn. There is no comparison.

Q has also been to the beginning of the universe. Onscreen. Nuff said about this stupid comparison between X Men and Star Trek.

[Enterprise-D]

as for Phoenix kicking Q's butt, meh... again who cares? i most certanly would chear for her
after all, Jean Grey is cuter then Q
as long as she does not side with SW

Phoenix isn't on anyone's side. She'd as soon wipe out the UFP and the Empire just the same as hibernating in Jean's brain.

However, the Q Continuum as far as Trek canon goes is composed of omnipotent beings. Therefore they are at the very least the equal of Phoenix, and I'd venture to add the superior due to their numbers and the fact that the Q cannot be railed in by a telepath in a wheelchair. Or require a "Jean" to hide in.

TW is attempting to countermand one series' canon with another...in a weak attempt to de-power the Q. This is a fallacious argument.

[Enterprise-D]

Yet the transporter has done even weirder things like reverse the age of being be transported.

Granted, however one event does not give evidence of the other. Further, these were transporter accidents fueled by spatial anomalies...certainly not by design.

besides compressing a gasseous being would be child play compared to reassembling atom by atonm like a transporter already does.

No...the gas would be faced with immense external pressure. How can you assume it would remain alive given it's natural state is to exist in a vacuum?

But the Q did not interfere before, hint about, or even show up in person to watch the show. And the only reason the Prophets did a damn thing is their Emissary begged them to and the Dominion was basically traipsing throught their home.

You harp only on the Dominion War, yet there are a number of other events that Q has stepped in, inclusive of the anti-Time anomaly and introducing the Borg to the Federation early.

You don't get it. The Q had no reaon to interfere or not to interfere. The Dominion war is just a prime example of how the Q would just not involve themselves at all in a lesser being affair. You can't claim they would get involved becuase history shows us they wouldn't.

YOU don't get it. The Dominion war is an example of lesser affairs that required no intervention because the lesser races within the same universe can handle their wars themselves.

A multi universe event would swing the stable flow of time in the Trek universe (akin to the anti Time anomaly), which would require Q intervention.

[Kittamaru]

You know... thinking about it...

Scott... there is nothing a Jedi or Sith has done that couldn't be done by sufficiently advanced technology.

Jedi Mind-Fuck - done in Star Trek via Georidi's VISOR
Force Storm - Tesla Coil x10
Force Shove / Pull / Jump / manipulate - graviton physics (tractor beam)
Force Trance/Healing - obvious, isn't it?
Force Battle Net - Neural Implants that utilize high-speed transmissions

I see a patttern...

TEH FORCE IS TEH TECNOLOGES!!!!

heh, sorry... couldn't help myself

[antaran_1979]

Phoenix isn't on anyone's side. She'd as soon wipe out the UFP and the Empire just the same as hibernating in Jean's brain.

However, the Q Continuum as far as Trek canon goes is composed of omnipotent beings. Therefore they are at the very least the equal of Phoenix, and I'd venture to add the superior due to their numbers and the fact that the Q cannot be railed in by a telepath in a wheelchair. Or require a "Jean" to hide in.

TW is attempting to countermand one series' canon with another...in a weak attempt to de-power the Q. This is a fallacious argument.

as far as i remember the Q are telepathy un-friendly or so they were during the first encounter. in all later cases probing was not atempted.

[Enterprise-D]

as far as i remember the Q are telepathy un-friendly or so they were during the first encounter. in all later cases probing was not atempted.

The Q cannot be mind scanned. They were unreadable by Deanna Troi, and Guinan could only sense when Q was coming...couldn't do a blessed thing to stop him.

[TW Scott]

Granted, however one event does not give evidence of the other. Further, these were transporter accidents fueled by spatial anomalies...certainly not by design.

However it was within the ability of transporter to REVERSE said changes. Meaning they can now actually be duplicated. Wanna be a kid again the federation knows how.

No...the gas would be faced with immense external pressure. How can you assume it would remain alive given it's natural state is to exist in a vacuum?

You are assuming that organism in question is vulnerable to said changes. Since it wa sa quasi energy being in the first place, all bets are out the window.

You harp only on the Dominion War, yet there are a number of other events that Q has stepped in, inclusive of the anti-Time anomaly and introducing the Borg to the Federation early.

The Borg being introduced the Federation was neither early nor catastrophic event. There were already incidnets on the edges of Federation, Romulan and Klingon space of Borg attacks. it was just that the Alpha quadrant powers had no idsea who was doing the attacks. Just that some worlsa were stripped of inhabitants and cities. Despite all attempts by the Borg to do anything to the Federation they have failed.

The Anti-Time event was not just a concern of the lesser races. Given the scope of the event it would have erased the Q as well. The Q figured out how it both started and how it should end and manipulated the rpime cuase (Picard) into making the right decisions. This was not interference for the sake of mortal but rather for the sake of the Q.

YOU don't get it. The Dominion war is an example of lesser affairs that required no intervention because the lesser races within the same universe can handle their wars themselves.

A multi universe event would swing the stable flow of time in the Trek universe (akin to the anti Time anomaly), which would require Q intervention.

YOU don't get it. SW is not set in another universe, but rather the same one we are in and since by ST defintion we are the same universe as ST (just alternate timeline) then there is no multiversal cross over. Merely a much more advanced and older civilization crossing an intergalatic void to engage another galaxy.

Besides if multiversal crossover was a problem why did not Q involve themselves against Species 8472?

[TW Scott]

Phoenix isn't on anyone's side. She'd as soon wipe out the UFP and the Empire just the same as hibernating in Jean's brain.

However, the Q Continuum as far as Trek canon goes is composed of omnipotent beings. Therefore they are at the very least the equal of Phoenix, and I'd venture to add the superior due to their numbers and the fact that the Q cannot be railed in by a telepath in a wheelchair. Or require a "Jean" to hide in.

TW is attempting to countermand one series' canon with another...in a weak attempt to de-power the Q. This is a fallacious argument.

Okay first of all we are talking Comics Pheonix not movie Pheonix. the difference between the too is immense. Much like comparing a hand grenade (Movie Pheonix) to a Super nova (Comic book Pheonix). If everyone thought I was referring to Movie Pheonix I apologize. I was referring to the Comic book version, witnessed the rebirth of the galaxy, devours supernovas as light snacks, makes the god quake in their boots, Pheonix.

I agree Q could take the movie Pheonix at will. But the comic Pheonix....I'm pretty sure he'd look at you and go "Sorry, I have an appointment to annoy the hell out of Picard. Good luck."

[TW Scott]

Incorrect. Picard has also stated it - albeit with some chagrin, q has stated it, Quinn as stated it, and Q2 (TNG) and Q2 (VOY) has stated it. De Lancie's Q is not the only one.

Alright more than one being has, but still no real proof. And Picard and Guinan says seemingly omnipotent if i am correct.

Please! That is your opinion, not based in either canon. You merely attack Trek using irrelevant data in order to falsely strengthen your case that SW is superior.

Has Q cuased a Super-Nova? Brought back the long dead? Reconstructed a world? No we have not seen any of that.

So has Storm...does this qualify her as omnipotent?

No more than it does Q, though the type of being that says it is important. If some schmuck tod be dude A was omnipotent it wholly different that is say Eternity itself says the same thing.

Nothing in the episode indicates that this was a 'dream state', since Doctor Crusher was in a very real fight to revive Picard. And nothing indicates that Q "fed on" Picard. You are ascribing traits to the episode that were simply not there.

I did;t say the fight for Picard's life was a dreamstate. But what picard experience might very well have been. And no, but I was point out that other beings have the ability to come to you at the end of your life and prjest images in your mind.

Q has also been to the beginning of the universe. Onscreen. Nuff said about this stupid comparison between X Men and Star Trek.

He's said he has been to the beginning of the universe. Not witnessed the old universe dies and the new one reborn. There is a sl;ight difference. With time travel powers you could deposit youself just a few fractions a second after the birthof time and you would have been to the beginning of the universe.

[Enterprise-D]

However it was within the ability of transporter to REVERSE said changes. Meaning they can now actually be duplicated. Wanna be a kid again the federation knows how.

It is also within the ability of your car to explode. Does this mean it's a repeatable or even desirable effect? Does this mean it was a design specification?

You are assuming that organism in question is vulnerable to said changes. Since it wa sa quasi energy being in the first place, all bets are out the window.

You are assuming it is INvulnerable. And assuming it was quasi energy. There's simply not enough info on the Calamarain for you to assume anything that Q did is repeatable through technology.

The Borg being introduced the Federation was neither early nor catastrophic event. There were already incidnets on the edges of Federation, Romulan and Klingon space of Borg attacks.

No there were not. At least not according to the series.

it was just that the Alpha quadrant powers had no idsea who was doing the attacks. Just that some worlsa were stripped of inhabitants and cities. Despite all attempts by the Borg to do anything to the Federation they have failed.

However, were the Borg able to appear around Earth under the element of surprise, it is unlikely in the extreme that the UFP would have been around. The series would have been renamed Star Trek: Assimilated.

The Anti-Time event was not just a concern of the lesser races. Given the scope of the event it would have erased the Q as well. The Q figured out how it both started and how it should end and manipulated the rpime cuase (Picard) into making the right decisions. This was not interference for the sake of mortal but rather for the sake of the Q.

The Anti-Time event would not have erased the Q. They would simply have repaired the breach themselves. They are immortal (hence will not age backwards at any kind of measurable rate). The Anti Time event required Q intervention so that 1. The universe remained intact and 2. The silly humans will know how to NOT do that sh*t again.

YOU don't get it. SW is not set in another universe, but rather the same one we are in and since by ST defintion we are the same universe as ST (just alternate timeline) then there is no multiversal cross over. Merely a much more advanced and older civilization crossing an intergalatic void to engage another galaxy.

YOU don't get it. SW is another person's creation, not based on the development of THIS Earth, however with humans in it. Therefore, for the purposes of this argument, it MUST be regarded as an alternate universe. I think even the other Wars folks agree with that one W.

Besides if multiversal crossover was a problem why did not Q involve themselves against Species 8472?

Because the Voyager-Borg alliance defeated them once, and further Janeway encountered Species later on and forged a non-aggression treaty. Since Q can see into the future, there would be no need for them to interfere there. I believe it was stated that if THIS universe would be in danger of losing to the SW Empire, it is then that the Q would step in.

[Enterprise-D]

Okay first of all we are talking Comics Pheonix not movie Pheonix. the difference between the too is immense. Much like comparing a hand grenade (Movie Pheonix) to a Super nova (Comic book Pheonix). If everyone thought I was referring to Movie Pheonix I apologize. I was referring to the Comic book version, witnessed the rebirth of the galaxy, devours supernovas as light snacks, makes the god quake in their boots, Pheonix.

I agree Q could take the movie Pheonix at will. But the comic Pheonix....I'm pretty sure he'd look at you and go "Sorry, I have an appointment to annoy the hell out of Picard. Good luck."

Scotty...let's end this now. X Men has no bearing on this thread. Marvel's canon has no bearing on Trek canon here. If it were an XMen v Star Trek debate, I'd be willing to entertain this.

However, this is your attempt to grasp what I now believe is your sockpuppet's attempt at setting up a Star Trek strawman comparison, to (in your mind) render the Q less powerful than they are. Leave freaking X Men out of this argument.

[Enterprise-D]

Alright more than one being has, but still no real proof. And Picard and Guinan says seemingly omnipotent if i am correct.

That's enough to make it a true canon statement.

Has Q cuased a Super-Nova? Brought back the long dead? Reconstructed a world? No we have not seen any of that.

And? Quinn carried Voyager to the Big Bang (while running from Q), and in the argument it was stated that only Q and Quinn could survive the blast. The story is "Star Trek" not "Journey to the Center of the Continuum". There has been no need to write a story to PROVE the omnipotence of the Q, it's just enough to state it such that Picard/Sisko/Janeway are presented with a proper seemingly insurmountable opponent.

No more than it does Q, though the type of being that says it is important. If some schmuck tod be dude A was omnipotent it wholly different that is say Eternity itself says the same thing.

Ah, but the thing is Scotty, the Q Continuum has demonstrated enough powers within the parameters of the stories written to indicate omnipotence. And there's no personification of "Eternity" on Star Trek.

I did;t say the fight for Picard's life was a dreamstate. But what picard experience might very well have been. And no, but I was point out that other beings have the ability to come to you at the end of your life and prjest images in your mind.

By itself, appearing to someone telepathically is a literary commonplace event. However the Q have demonstrated more than that. You keep looking at the Q per event, yet not doing the same for the Jedi.

He's said he has been to the beginning of the universe. Not witnessed the old universe dies and the new one reborn. There is a sl;ight difference. With time travel powers you could deposit youself just a few fractions a second after the birthof time and you would have been to the beginning of the universe.

Not only has he been there, Quinn took Voyager there, AND it was stated (as above) that Q and Quinn would be the only survivors.

Further, this is the closest to the X-Men comparison that you will get out of the Trek writings. And pursuant to my previous post, let us end this irrelevant comparison to the X Men.

[Kittamaru]

However it was within the ability of transporter to REVERSE said changes. Meaning they can now actually be duplicated. Wanna be a kid again the federation knows how.

Uh... I'm not even going to address this - the level of STUPID is astounding.

You are assuming that organism in question is vulnerable to said changes. Since it wa sa quasi energy being in the first place, all bets are out the window.

Uhm... no. To change the volume WITHOUT ALTERING density OR mass is an IMPOSSIBLE feat. Except for a "god"

The Borg being introduced the Federation was neither early nor catastrophic event. There were already incidnets on the edges of Federation, Romulan and Klingon space of Borg attacks. it was just that the Alpha quadrant powers had no idsea who was doing the attacks. Just that some worlsa were stripped of inhabitants and cities. Despite all attempts by the Borg to do anything to the Federation they have failed.

Uhm... no? The Borg encounter was the first time they were encountered. Saying they destroyed worlds is not an encounter as there is NO sign left who/what did it... thus nothing to study. It's called Genocide.

The Anti-Time event was not just a concern of the lesser races. Given the scope of the event it would have erased the Q as well. The Q figured out how it both started and how it should end and manipulated the rpime cuase (Picard) into making the right decisions. This was not interference for the sake of mortal but rather for the sake of the Q.

No... they wouldn't have been erased. They live in ohter universes you idiot.


YOU don't get it. SW is not set in another universe, but rather the same one we are in and since by ST defintion we are the same universe as ST (just alternate timeline) then there is no multiversal cross over. Merely a much more advanced and older civilization crossing an intergalatic void to engage another galaxy.

No, again... it IS another universe.

Unless of course .5c means 5x light speed in this universe...

And, if I'm not mistaken... the initial argument was as follows:

STAR TREK UNIVERSE
vs
STAR WARS UNIVERSE

Thus, IMPLYING differing universes.

Besides if multiversal crossover was a problem why did not Q involve themselves against Species 8472?

Species 8472 was a different DIMENSION (fluidic space), not different UNIVERSE (multiverse theory). And, again, the Federation wasn't in danger of being wiped out by them...

BAKA!

[Kittamaru]

Alright more than one being has, but still no real proof. And Picard and Guinan says seemingly omnipotent if i am correct.

And your point is... what?

Has Q cuased a Super-Nova? Brought back the long dead? Reconstructed a world? No we have not seen any of that.

Yes to #1 (their mere WEAPONS did it every time they fired them). Yes to #2 (Tasha Yarr anyone? Encounter at Farpoint? She was dead, no lifesigns of any kind). #3 - the FEDERATION can do that (Genesis device? DUH?)


No more than it does Q, though the type of being that says it is important. If some schmuck tod be dude A was omnipotent it wholly different that is say Eternity itself says the same thing.



I did;t say the fight for Picard's life was a dreamstate. But what picard experience might very well have been. And no, but I was point out that other beings have the ability to come to you at the end of your life and prjest images in your mind.

He wasn't just jumping time periods... he was jumping bloody dimensions!


He's said he has been to the beginning of the universe. Not witnessed the old universe dies and the new one reborn. There is a sl;ight difference. With time travel powers you could deposit youself just a few fractions a second after the birthof time and you would have been to the beginning of the universe.

Uhm... what? Why would he need time travel to do this? Most likely he was THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED ALREADY!

BAKA BAKA!

[Kittamaru]

Okay first of all we are talking Comics Pheonix not movie Pheonix. the difference between the too is immense. Much like comparing a hand grenade (Movie Pheonix) to a Super nova (Comic book Pheonix). If everyone thought I was referring to Movie Pheonix I apologize. I was referring to the Comic book version, witnessed the rebirth of the galaxy, devours supernovas as light snacks, makes the god quake in their boots, Pheonix.

I agree Q could take the movie Pheonix at will. But the comic Pheonix....I'm pretty sure he'd look at you and go "Sorry, I have an appointment to annoy the hell out of Picard. Good luck."

No... Q would snap his fingers and (like any other being) she'd cease to have EVER existed.