Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

but do you remember "Insurection"? metreon gas is highly volatile. even if you use it to make some kind of doomsday device you'd still need some, most likely a lot of it.

Yes... but you didn't need it on the planet...

Antaran... please tell me you are using drunk logic at the moment...

[Enterprise-D]

Nothing Newtonian about the situations.

Actually, I was thinking along the lines of Marvel Comics' "M-Day" story arc. In that particular story, the Scarlet Witch rewrites reality and turns 90% of Earth's mutant population into baseline humans.

Several characters in that universe (most notably Beast and Hank Pym) noticed that the powers some mutants controlled simply could not have vanished. It breaks the Law of the Conservation of Matter and Energy. As it turns out, that energy gave birth to the Collective and revived Gabriel Summers.

Using that as an example (Q introduced the X-Men and two Enterprise crews on two different occasion), you just can't will something out of existence. So, whenever Q does something, there is an energy reaction somewhere in the Universe.

Excuse me???? I am pretty sure that this never happened. Further XMen canon has zero relation to Trek canon.

Q are omnipotent. That is all.

The Q Continuum beings have the ability to alter certain constants.

But they have never met anyone with any abilities close to their own. There is no one in the ST universe who nears them in any way.

So, let's run with the ability to alter reality. How long can you change reality without consequences before someone comes along who's powers dwarf your own (I'm thinking Jean Grey...)?

After all, there is always a bigger fish...

Jean GREY???? Um, in which fantasy could Phoenix even hope to compare with a Q Continuum member? Further...and once again, what the hell does X-Men have to do with either Wars or Trek???

[antaran_1979]

Yes... but you didn't need it on the planet...

Antaran... please tell me you are using drunk logic at the moment...

can't say for sure, but it was needed lots of metreon gas to partially blow up 2 So'Na (spelling) battleships even if we presume the ware mostly intact prior to the reaction. even in very optimistic esemates the area effected by the cascade was no larger then several kilometers. if you were to make a planetary assult on a planet-city (Trantor, Corusant) you will need lots of metreon gas. in other words you'll need it in aboundance. we have no idea how available it was during the war prior to ST Voyager but there is no trace of it in SW.

[fedr808]

Ive gotta say, Jean Gray, all she could do is make things fly, and people turn to dust. That's about it. Ive gotta say being able to will things into and out of existance would kick the crud outta that.

Also the arguement of a backwards effect can be falsified by the fact that the Q do not create new matter which puts pressure on the old matter. They take the old matter and make it to what they want. So if you think about the universe as a swimming pool. The arguement is that the Q make a Waterballoon and put it into the pool. What would theoretically happen is that the pool level would rise, until the point with which it would overflow. in reality the Q take the water from the pool and make the waterballoon. They are not creating new matter and putting it into the universe, they are simply using old matter to make something new.

[RC773]

What does X-Men have to do with either Wars or Trek?

Well, the X-Men came into contact with the crews of TOS and TNG (the latter on two occasions), so I would say a lot.

Take a look at Memory Alpha, check for Star TreX.

Those books and comic stories are licensed canon, so I don't see why the rules don't apply to them as well. That being said, Jean Grey (from the comics, not the movies) is the physical manifestation of the Phoenix Force, which is basically "a child of the Universe" and exists to serve as the judge of life - if life is determined by the Phoenix to be obsolute, it is burned away and replaced.
Also, Phoenix is truly immortal, meaning that unlike members of the Q Continuum who have a finite beginning and can die, it existed before the universe was born and will continue to exist after the universe is gone.

In which fantasy could Phoenix even hope to compare with a Q Continuum member?

So, my question for you, given that I was referring to the Phoenix Force from the Marvel Comics title known as The Uncanny X-Men (a universe which exists due to its acknowledgment as licensed canon through 3 different sources) and given that the Phoenix Force is a multi-universe spanning entity, what chance does Q or any of his race stand against the Phoenix Force, a being which has no end and no beginning and has the power (and will use the power in a unspecified date in the distant future) to burn away the entire universe and recreate it again? The Q are powerful; but they are finite beings (they have to be born) and they can die (Quinn, anyone?), which means they are not as omnipotent as they would have people believe.

[Saquist]

The relationship between all powerful and mortal is not as litteral as you propose.

[Enterprise-D]

What does X-Men have to do with either Wars or Trek?

Well, the X-Men came into contact with the crews of TOS and TNG (the latter on two occasions), so I would say a lot.

Take a look at Memory Alpha, check for Star TreX.

Those books and comic stories are licensed canon, so I don't see why the rules don't apply to them as well. That being said, Jean Grey (from the comics, not the movies) is the physical manifestation of the Phoenix Force, which is basically "a child of the Universe" and exists to serve as the judge of life - if life is determined by the Phoenix to be obsolute, it is burned away and replaced.
Also, Phoenix is truly immortal, meaning that unlike members of the Q Continuum who have a finite beginning and can die, it existed before the universe was born and will continue to exist after the universe is gone.

You've come in late, so I have to excuse you for this. Paramount's official statement on Trek canon does not include comic books. In fact it specifically excludes anything outside the movies, TV episodes and until recently specific novels.

Further, members of the Q only die if they wish it, or allow it to happen. This entails LOSING the powers of the Q Continuum.

In which fantasy could Phoenix even hope to compare with a Q Continuum member?

So, my question for you, given that I was referring to the Phoenix Force from the Marvel Comics title known as The Uncanny X-Men (a universe which exists due to its acknowledgment as licensed canon through 3 different sources) and given that the Phoenix Force is a multi-universe spanning entity, what chance does Q or any of his race stand against the Phoenix Force, a being which has no end and no beginning and has the power (and will use the power in a unspecified date in the distant future) to burn away the entire universe and recreate it again? The Q are powerful; but they are finite beings (they have to be born) and they can die (Quinn, anyone?), which means they are not as omnipotent as they would have people believe.

Easy Peasy. Remove her from this universe. Send her to oh Doctor Who's "void" space for example since we're so willy nilly bringing in every other fiction we can muster. Maybe Ben 10's Null Void prison?

Dude, the inability to kill something does not demarcate a limitation to omnipotence. Phoenix has no power to end the life of a member of the Q Continuum either (Quinn willingly gave up his Q abilities and allowed himself to die on Voyager).

Punto Finale on this...the contributors here had agreed at somewhere in the middle of the thread to stick to official canon. X Men crossover comics unfortunately do not apply to Star Trek or Star Wars for that matter, and further, this is a Wars v Trek thread...X Men are irrelevant.

[Kittamaru]

Nothing Newtonian about the situations.

Actually, I was thinking along the lines of Marvel Comics' "M-Day" story arc. In that particular story, the Scarlet Witch rewrites reality and turns 90% of Earth's mutant population into baseline humans.

Several characters in that universe (most notably Beast and Hank Pym) noticed that the powers some mutants controlled simply could not have vanished. It breaks the Law of the Conservation of Matter and Energy. As it turns out, that energy gave birth to the Collective and revived Gabriel Summers.

Using that as an example (Q introduced the X-Men and two Enterprise crews on two different occasion), you just can't will something out of existence. So, whenever Q does something, there is an energy reaction somewhere in the Universe.

Allow me Saquist:

Every time Q destroys a civilization, a billion Nerf Herds spontaniously spawn into existance in deep space.

Happy?

[Kittamaru]

Using such laws, most Force powers would become useless... for every action you perform (Force stopping an ISD ala Yoda), an equal and opposite reaction would be put upon your body (squish).

Yet, that never happens in the movies, books, comics, or any other SW stuff...

I am pretty sure that all goes back to SWANH, where Kenobi says the Force is an energy field that connects all things. Those who are Force Sensetive can influence the field (remember midi-chlorians from SWTPM? They basically are the physical manifestation of the Force; because the Force exists at all times in all places, so do they, which is why some people can see into the future or the past using the Force) and use it to change the world around them. Mc's exist in all things, and more importantly they touch all things and they permeate all things, so when a Jedi or a Sith influences the mc's in his or her own body they resonate like a extremely long acoustic string, which is why a Force sensitive can move a Star Destroyer without killing themselves.

The best analogy I can give is one Jacen Solo gives. The Force is like a river; Jedi and Sith can change the flow of the river by actively deciding to influence it. They can use make a dam and bottle it up, thus cutting someone off from it (the Jedi Exile, Jacen Solo, Ben Skywalker, Kyle Katarn, and Ulic Qel-Droma come readily to mind), or they can divert a little and life a stone (Luke training with Yoda), or the can divert a lot and destroy a star or planet (Exar Kun and Darth Nihilus), but if they are careful they can loose themselves in it (like Anakin Solo, Darth Sidious, or Dorsk 81). More than a few Jedi or Sith have died because they have started something with the Force and not realized the amount of energy it would take to complete the task they set into motion. Mc's are the rocks someone would use to change the course of the river; the more rocks one had (like Anakin Skywalker), the more one could do.

Likewise... we never see Q need any sort of newtonian physics "reaction" to his actions... he just does it.

Unless of course you need a different set of rules to give you some HOPE of defeating the Q... you wouldn't be the first one.

Ah... newbie tears... they replenish my energy!

[Kittamaru]

can't say for sure, but it was needed lots of metreon gas to partially blow up 2 So'Na (spelling) battleships even if we presume the ware mostly intact prior to the reaction. even in very optimistic esemates the area effected by the cascade was no larger then several kilometers. if you were to make a planetary assult on a planet-city (Trantor, Corusant) you will need lots of metreon gas. in other words you'll need it in aboundance. we have no idea how available it was during the war prior to ST Voyager but there is no trace of it in SW.

That was different... the metreon gas there wasn't highly concentrated... nor was it used to start a chain reaction metreon cascade... they just made it go *POOF*

Nuclear Warheads to M80's mate...

[Kittamaru]

X Men doesn't apply to this at all...

Though it' be funny as hell to see Professor X Mind-Fuck Vader or Palpatine ROFL

[antaran_1979]

That was different... the metreon gas there wasn't highly concentrated... nor was it used to start a chain reaction metreon cascade... they just made it go *POOF*

Nuclear Warheads to M80's mate...

eerr... it does not really help...
if i more concentraded version is neede to initiate the cascade, then you are in even more of a bother. and if fallout is all you want, why not simply deploy large quantities of long lived radioactive isotopes?

[USS Exeter]

Why not just have the star wars universe sucked into a gigantic black hole? Problem solved.

[fedr808]

Why not just have the star wars universe sucked into a gigantic black hole? Problem solved.

Atleast it'll stop luke from whining about dead kanobi.

[Kittamaru]

eerr... it does not really help...
if i more concentraded version is neede to initiate the cascade, then you are in even more of a bother. and if fallout is all you want, why not simply deploy large quantities of long lived radioactive isotopes?

You're missing the point...

The Metreon Cascade is initiated by Metreon Particles that the attacking SHIP utilizes. It brings them with it and/or generates them on the spot. Anything not obliterated in the initial blast suffers acute radiation poisoning that'd make Cherobyl seem like a taco fart (as far as lethality is concerned)

[antaran_1979]

You're missing the point...

The Metreon Cascade is initiated by Metreon Particles that the attacking SHIP utilizes. It brings them with it and/or generates them on the spot. Anything not obliterated in the initial blast suffers acute radiation poisoning that'd make Cherobyl seem like a taco fart (as far as lethality is concerned)

tsk tsk tsk....
a quote from Memory Alpha:
"The metreon cascade was a weapon of mass destruction designed by Dr. Ma'Bor Jetrel of the Haakonian Order. It used unstable metreon isotopes to create a devastating explosion, apparently similar to that of a nuclear weapon. The resulting radiation poisoning killed those who were not destroyed by the initial blast. Sufficient exposure to metreons resulted in the deadly disease metremia.

The metreon cascade was only used once, on the Talaxian moon of Rinax in 2356, ultimately concluding the Talaxian-Haakonian War. (VOY: "Jetrel") "

SAY NO to making things up!
no such reaction is mentioned as you see. what is stated is that you need metreon gas, and then you make something equivalent of nuclear weapon (most likely a bomb). seing how Talaxians or Haakonians are not the most feared races around it does not apear especially impressive to me. it's wicked yes, but not impressive. heck the "fat-boy" was wicked, but impressive? i don't think so. the only thing that the cascade was usefull was creating fallout. again this could be acheaved through other means.

[Kittamaru]

Okay, antaran... listen mate...

If the Talaxian Moon was COVERED in Metereon gas... NOBODY WOULD BE LIVING THERE!

Watch the episode mate... please, I beg of you.

It used unstable metreon isotopes to create a devastating explosion, apparently similar to that of a nuclear weapon

Think about that for a second...

Our Hydrogen Bomb... does it require hydrogen at the target to do it's thing?

NO!

Same idea, different unstable isotopes!

[Enterprise-D]

Kitt is right on one hand...the Cascade devastated the entire population of the Talaxian moon, of which Neelix was the only survivor - due to a self admitted act of fear (he ran away on the impending invasion). The Alpha description appears to insinuate that the metreon payload is carried by the weapon fired, as opposed to metreon being present at the target site (which would be really pointless huh).

Side note: I can't remember the exact number, but I seem to remember Neelix saying it was a couple hundred thousand in the one detonation.

Given the devastation the weapon caused, I do grant antaran the point that the Haakonians would not present much of a threat...the weapon has to be carried, and neither the Haakonians or Talaxians presented any UFP level ship tech.

(What was the "fat-boy" antaran? I appear to have missed that)

[Kittamaru]

Fat boy was a bunkerbuster used, I believe, in WW2.

And Ent-D, imagine if the UFP modified Photon Torps to create Metreon Cascades... hehehe...

[antaran_1979]

Kitt is right on one hand...the Cascade devastated the entire population of the Talaxian moon, of which Neelix was the only survivor - due to a self admitted act of fear (he ran away on the impending invasion). The Alpha description appears to insinuate that the metreon payload is carried by the weapon fired, as opposed to metreon being present at the target site (which would be really pointless huh).

Side note: I can't remember the exact number, but I seem to remember Neelix saying it was a couple hundred thousand in the one detonation.

Given the devastation the weapon caused, I do grant antaran the point that the Haakonians would not present much of a threat...the weapon has to be carried, and neither the Haakonians or Talaxians presented any UFP level ship tech.

(What was the "fat-boy" antaran? I appear to have missed that)

fat boy is what hasppenes when you write behind your boss's back )))))
i was refering to Fat Man and Little Boy bombs in WWII :P

as far as merteon cascade goes, Nelix describes it as fallout cloud that enveloped the moon after the initial blast. compare this with the blast seen in "Insurection" and you end up with large quantities of gas needed. i don't say you need it free-floating in the atmosphere but you need it to build your bomb/s. and there are more efficient ways of doing more destructive ways of harming a planetoid or its population. this goes for both brute force and foxicity factors.