Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

You are, sadly, dilerious scotch.

[antaran_1979]

1.Exactly, but according to canon the Ship had been in combat for at least half an hour over Coruscant. Especially since Obi-wan and Anakin had to come in form out of system to engage in their rescue plan. Anakin had not been to see Padme in months remember. So obvious the majority of battleships shields had been battered down in preparation for this mission. A less likely explnation is perhaps the ship did not have shields, as we know other large vessels in Star Wars carry them.



2. I never stated Humanity evolved into the Q directly. I claimed it as a possibility. I stated they have an interest in humanity. But remember the Empire has Humans as well.




3.Actually the Q have not shown any prediliction towards omniscience. They do seem to know a lot and can calculate quite a bit, but they do not actually read the future.

4.As for the UFP stopping the Empire, mathematics and canon prove you wrong at every turn. You can believe what you want, but the math and fact clearly favor SW winning.

1. yuck! the scarry design with shield controls on the outside, easy to disable?

2. you may be right, the Q did state humanity has the potential to evolve into Q like beings, hence thier concern. they would not allow a warlike and violent race to do such a tning.

3. again true.

4. this is somewhat true (allthough not in the way you'd like it) and i fear i will eventually reach the same conclusion. after a year of research i think i can chisle the aspects for my simulation in precise enough detail (GCS vs ISDII). still it would take me at least a month of debuging. i can't promise much at this point, but i don't think the GCS advantage in 1-1 engagement will prove enough for UFP to counter Empire's numbers and strategical deployment. and this is only refering to the ISDs that are numbering at least 25000 or so. what i hope my simulation will show is just how much of something would the Empire need to take out something of UFP's side. it should be noted i take into acount conventional warfare, so no metreon cascades, nano probes, biological warfare....

[Kittamaru]

antaran, take into account the fact that UFP ships and stations can stop Wars ships from fleeing due to their warp fields.

[antaran_1979]

antaran, take into account the fact that UFP ships and stations can stop Wars ships from fleeing due to their warp fields.

as stated i can not simulate complex sutuations. i am limited to visual range, sub-light engagements. in essence a brute-force one on one, or a dozen ships at most, but still a slugging engagement. oh and i asume turbo lasers are a type of pulse weapons and not lasers.

those that have moded BC in the past know of what restrictions i'm talking about.

[fedr808]

sw shields don't stop solid objects ??????? The millenium falcon came out of hyperspace straight in the debri of alderan. without shields it would simply be destroyed. no armor can stand the pressure of an object hitting at that speed.
drive the toughest tank against a mountain wall at 100mph and see what's left of it. lmao

hey what about ST armor? i know that voyager is not the best example on defence stats but i one episode they were targetted by an low tech ship (don't really know if it were phasers or lazers but it was weak) creating a hole in theyre shield allowing ansmaller vessel to go through an hit voyager in somesort of kamikaze run. uhm didn't they lose control of voyager in that episode lmao

imagine what a isd can acomplish. total info on St ships lmao

Well, wow. Why did you have to ask why the millenium falcon survived it's pretty darn obvious. It didnt get hit by anything much larger than a little rock. Yah you know what i agree, a tank hitting a solid wall at 100 miles per hours is screwed. But the millenium falcon never hit a wall. Just little pebbles of rocks.

[fedr808]

The torpedo did not pierce the shield. The fighters where moving between the shield and the deathstar. BTW you have to know the DS weakspot and a enormously skilled fighter pilot.
oh yeah did you see vaders SSD hit the ds? and yet it is slichtly damaged ? that's armor for ya
BTW the ds is not so slow as you claim it to be. It can move through hyperspace like any other ship. prove? try to go from alderan to yavin at just simple lighspeed it would take u years.
so hyperspace does NOT equal lichtspeed. for example anakin and padme travel from naboo to tatooine in a few minutes. although they are in the same quadrant it would still take several years at lightspeed.
now u can argue who is faster but keep in mind to look at it logicly. don't go downscaling just to make ur point or you'll turn in to Scott *no offence scott*

Well okay, theres one goal i wanna keep in mind not turning into scott. But also, the term in star wars, lightspeed and hyperspeed have been interchanged very frequently with no evidence that they are different systems. Also maybe i am downgrading the SW speed factor yet still, a borg transwarp conduit sends a borg ship at speeds that theoretically infinitely fast. (imagine the mph dial just spinning and spinning for hours XD)

And also when you said the fighter was between the shield and the trench further proved my point. It flew straight through the shields. Thus proving the fact that most (not all) SW shields do not block physical attacks. And quiet frankly why would they with all that armor?

Technology is a need relationship. You don't invent better shields if they are more expensive, if you don't need them. That's why SW hasn't they havent fought against anything that would require them to build better shields until this battle. And knowing the creativity of the empire (no one can argue this) it will be too long before they mass produce the kinda ships with those shields.

also why is it that the clone wars ships seem much more effective than the galactic civil war ships?

[fedr808]

also i agree with the whole Q point. If only the Q weren't so lazy they may help. Chances are they wouldn't give a crap till the last minute.

[Enterprise-D]

He signed his name to the christmas special and the Ewok TV movies and those are noncanon as far as he is concerned.

Incorrect Lucas holds novelizations second only to movies themselves. Need to pay attention.

And these are also found on all the Lucasarts games as well, but they are explicitly noncanon as per Lucasfilm policy.

Iam. It is just I have a better understanding of what is and isn't canon.

Not even going to bother...cop out.

Exactly, but according to canon the Ship had been in combat for at least half an hour over Coruscant. Especially since Obi-wan and Anakin had to come in form out of system to engage in their rescue plan. Anakin had not been to see Padme in months remember. So obvious the majority of battleships shields had been battered down in preparation for this mission. A less likely explnation is perhaps the ship did not have shields, as we know other large vessels in Star Wars carry them.

This is simply one ship. There are quite a number of examples of other Warsie ships which appear in battle unshielded. Inclusive of the Malevolence in Clone Wars.

You have assumed even more. I never stated Humanity evolved into the Q directly. I claimed it as a possibility. I stated they have an interest in humanity. But remember the Empire has Humans as well.

Meaningless. Q was speaking to Jean-Luc Picard, not Obi Wan Kenobi. His statement has nothing to do with Wars canon.

Actually the Q have not shown any prediliction towards omniscience. They do seem to know a lot and can calculate quite a bit, but they do not actually read the future. However they do have a strict noninvolvement clause when it comes to primatives species. If it is a fight amongst primatives they will not interfere, however if one side is an advanced being such as themselves they just might.

John De Lancie's Q has stated on screen that the Q are omniscient...Sorry.

As for the UFP stopping the Empire, mathematics and canon prove you wrong at every turn. You can believe what you want, but the math and fact clearly favor SW winning.

Future Feds. They have all the time in the multiverse to blow up every single Warsie ship with temporal-cloaked bombs.

PS the Future Feds are NOT any f***ing arm of the Empire, Lucas' canon has nothing to do with Roddenberry canon, further, there are no designs to even HINT at any such merger. Just forestalling your silly claims there.

Well, yes positronic circuits have made a rather remarkable android in ST. Of which there is one on his level. There is NO way to make more. Infact the most recent attempt was a failure. As for self sacrifice Data would have known the 4 laws of robots. I say for becuase I add in Chetter Hummins 0th law. Hpwever I will hold that Data is an idiot. He could have easily used a Transporter from the shuttlecraft or captains yacht and beamed out picard and in overloaded phaser to save the day.

I actually agree with this except that

1. Data is an android, not a mindless Warsie drone.
2. The robotic laws apply only to fictions that choose to use Isaac Asimov's laws and
3. Isaac Asimov's robotic laws do not (necessarily) apply since Isaac Asimov is a fictional writer even in the Trek universe. You assume a lot to even suggest that Data was programmed with these.

However, Data was killed for plot device as Brent Spiner is after all old, tubby and wrinkled now. Hence the reason the Data to B4 backup was written in, so that the producers (arguably) left themselves an explanation if a Data CGI interface was made. Since there's a relaunch however, we'll probably get a new actor.

Further, Starfleet has (albeit accidentally) created a new AI, which is easily replicable.

However I will also point out R2-D2 a simple production line astromech. Just a run of the mill droid of which there are thousands can perform his programmed duties, understand at least a dozen languages even if he only speaks one. Can actually hack a computer, play chess, disobey orders, give himself orders and many things even Data would envy.

1. Data has forcibly overtaken the entire Starship Enterprise (by emulating all authorized officers and taking control of the ships main computer)
2. Data is the Enterprise's reigning chess champion.
3. Data has disobeyed Captain Picard's direct orders (to stop a Romulan advancement) and Admiral Dougherty's directives (ST: Insurrection).
4. Data has been given command of both Enterprise D and his own starship, hence is capable of self direction.

Data can mimic human behavior from learning to tap dance all the way to HAVING SEX you whiny ass! Let's see any droid do THAT.

Um...I submit to you that Data encompasses the skills of every single droid in the entire SW universe rolled into one, and surpasses them since...heh...he can aim a weapon (figuratively and literally lol).

Now as for battle Droids. These machines fire much more accurately than the typical soldier of today. In battles with the Jedi of course they miss as the Jedi can sense the shot before it happens and against the Clonetroopers they actually fair pretty well. I have yet to see anything that tells me they are not decent shots.

Really? I'll post a few pics showing many shots going wide from droids while they are easily picked off by their biological Clone foes.

Actually since ET visited Earth it is very much the same universe. Just a different galaxy. Hell the opening of Star Wars tells in best

A long, long time ago, in a glaxy far, far away.

So the Q would be sitting on their thumbs, or given how Q act egging the imperials on a bit.

And pardon me, but George Lucas' story canon has no effect on the Trek universe. They are completely incompatible. ET and SW have absolutely nothing to do with Star Trek's Earth.

Further, antaran has addressed your anti-Q sentiment.

[Saquist]

At the least the Q would do nothing. For some reason Star Wars proponets think that Q is an appropriate representative of the Q Continuum. Scott sees them as all mischievious dangerous and villianous.

That's is the past characteristics of one individual. The Continuum labeled Q a rebel.
Guinan said her self that the Q are responsible and reputable. And of course to repeat it for the third time on the thread, even Q has assisted human development.

SO these issues have been addressed thoroughly. There is no reason to believe the Q could never intervene. There is more likely hood considering Q's current fondness of humanity that he would hint Picard, Janeway, Vash, and Sisko in the right direction. Would he become overly involved? No. But that doesn't mean he would do nothing. He's described humanity as having a high purpose. One the Contintuum too seems intrested in. They actually seem to guardians of the galaxy.

[Kittamaru]

This should put a dent in Scott's neutronium armor argument:

The Doomsday Machine was a large World Devastator-like planet-cracking machine which resembled some sort of giant slug, with a mouth approximately 1 km wide. According to Spock, it was made of "solid neutronium" (a contradiction in terms; neutronium is inherently fluid, like the nucleus of an atom) and their sensors could not penetrate its surface. Of course, this begs the question of how he could possibly know if the neutronium extended beneath a microscopic surface layer, but that's another story. In any case, it functions very much like the World Devastator, tearing up planets into pieces and processing the material for fuel.

Taken from his friend Wong...

[Kittamaru]

[quoteWell, yes positronic circuits have made a rather remarkable android in ST. Of which there is one on his level. There is NO way to make more. Infact the most recent attempt was a failure. As for self sacrifice Data would have known the 4 laws of robots. I say for becuase I add in Chetter Hummins 0th law. Hpwever I will hold that Data is an idiot. He could have easily used a Transporter from the shuttlecraft or captains yacht and beamed out picard and in overloaded phaser to save the day.
[/quote]

Wrong...

Data
Lore
B4

three... B4 the prototype and Lore the evil one. Reprogram him and wallah!

[Kittamaru]

Oh, and of course -

the AI from the USS Prometheus... it was able to ask a simple question (target), then execute a complex MULTI VECTOR attack pattern all on it's own.

[TW Scott]

1. yuck! the scarry design with shield controls on the outside, easy to disable?

Actually the controls were not on the outside, mere sone of the emitters much like Star Trek vessles are covered with emitters. Still like I explained earlier.

2. you may be right, the Q did state humanity has the potential to evolve into Q like beings, hence thier concern. they would not allow a warlike and violent race to do such a tning.

How can you be sure? All they seemed to be looking for was creative thinking. Seeing as how Q enjoyed torturing some lesser species they may very well think SW humans are perfectly fine. Especially since they are far more enlightened than ST humans.

4. this is somewhat true (allthough not in the way you'd like it) and i fear i will eventually reach the same conclusion. after a year of research i think i can chisle the aspects for my simulation in precise enough detail (GCS vs ISDII). still it would take me at least a month of debuging. i can't promise much at this point, but i don't think the GCS advantage in 1-1 engagement will prove enough for UFP to counter Empire's numbers and strategical deployment. and this is only refering to the ISDs that are numbering at least 25000 or so. what i hope my simulation will show is just how much of something would the Empire need to take out something of UFP's side. it should be noted i take into acount conventional warfare, so no metreon cascades, nano probes, biological warfare....

be sure to do Star Wars warfare and not Star trek. ST vessels cannot hope to intercept SW vessels before they reach the target planet. But please use the canon info and not anything saquist or kittamaru have given. Not that they have given any numbers.

[TW Scott]

[QUOTE=Enterprise-D;2059983]Not even going to bother...cop out.[/qupte]

No reality. Remeber the books and Animated series are not canon in ST becuase of paramount. We have to play by their rules.

This is simply one ship. There are quite a number of examples of other Warsie ships which appear in battle unshielded. Inclusive of the Malevolence in Clone Wars.

Okay give one example.

Meaningless. Q was speaking to Jean-Luc Picard, not Obi Wan Kenobi. His statement has nothing to do with Wars canon.

John De Lancie's Q has stated on screen that the Q are omniscient...Sorry.

Am i to trust a being that has deceived others on countless situations. not to mention it is just hearsay. There is no proof.

Future Feds. They have all the time in the multiverse to blow up every single Warsie ship with temporal-cloaked bombs.

Sorry, but they don;t get to play via the Temporal Prime Directive.

PS the Future Feds are NOT any f***ing arm of the Empire, Lucas' canon has nothing to do with Roddenberry canon, further, there are no designs to even HINT at any such merger. Just forestalling your silly claims there.

You'd have to prove they were not part of it after the invasion began. You'd also have to prove they would interfere when their own laws say they won't

I actually agree with this except that

1. Data is an android, not a mindless Warsie drone.
2. The robotic laws apply only to fictions that choose to use Isaac Asimov's laws and
3. Isaac Asimov's robotic laws do not (necessarily) apply since Isaac Asimov is a fictional writer even in the Trek universe. You assume a lot to even suggest that Data was programmed with these.

1: Actually, you are assuming SW droids are mindless. They just have limited functions.
2: Incorrect, many people in the robotics field wish to implement these laws as soon as we have machines smart enough to comprehend them.
3: I was not saying he was neccessarily programmed with them but as Isaac Asimov was a Astrophysicist as well as a brilliant author it is likely Data had read the books and knew of them. He might have even chose to practice them of his own accord.

However, Data was killed for plot device as Brent Spiner is after all old, tubby and wrinkled now. Hence the reason the Data to B4 backup was written in, so that the producers (arguably) left themselves an explanation if a Data CGI interface was made. Since there's a relaunch however, we'll probably get a new actor.

Further, Starfleet has (albeit accidentally) created a new AI, which is easily replicable.

Actually, it doesn;t matter plot device. plot device means nothing when you examne canon. Only what is seen on screen. What we see is an idiot android.

1. Data has forcibly overtaken the entire Starship Enterprise (by emulating all authorized officers and taking control of the ships main computer)
2. Data is the Enterprise's reigning chess champion.
3. Data has disobeyed Captain Picard's direct orders (to stop a Romulan advancement) and Admiral Dougherty's directives (ST: Insurrection).
4. Data has been given command of both Enterprise D and his own starship, hence is capable of self direction.

Data can mimic human behavior from learning to tap dance all the way to HAVING SEX you whiny ass! Let's see any droid do THAT.

Acutally in Shadows of the Empire, there is a droid who can do everything Data can, pass as human to scanners and was actually emulating love for her master.

Um...I submit to you that Data encompasses the skills of every single droid in the entire SW universe rolled into one, and surpasses them since...heh...he can aim a weapon (figuratively and literally lol).

And he misses more often than Riker and Worf. both of whom missed a sauntering alien at five meters in a narrow hallway.

Data cannot possibly compare to all droid types. He is not a surgeon. He a leading scholar in all forms of science. He cannot even begin to calculate hyperspace jumps.....

Really? I'll post a few pics showing many shots going wide from droids while they are easily picked off by their biological Clone foes.

And pardon me, but George Lucas' story canon has no effect on the Trek universe. They are completely incompatible. ET and SW have absolutely nothing to do with Star Trek's Earth.

Further, antaran has addressed your anti-Q sentiment.

What you do not get is that if in the SW canon their Galaxy is in the same universe as Earth then it works that way across the board.

And the Q will not interfere as it is a contest between lesser beings. Antaran can say what he wants but ST canon holds.

[Kittamaru]

Again with the lies and the ignoring simple facts and the hoigle!

Goddamn scott... just shutup already. You obviously have NO CLUE about Star Trek in ANY form.

Roddenbury would bitch-slap you like the bitch you are.

[Enterprise-D]

Not even going to bother...cop out.

No reality. Remeber the books and Animated series are not canon in ST becuase of paramount. We have to play by their rules.

What? I'm speaking of Clone Wars. What does that have to do with Trek canon? Nothing.

Okay give one example.

I did. The Malevolence. I'll have to do some screencaps from DVD for you for movie examples. I'll get around to it.

Am i to trust a being that has deceived others on countless situations. not to mention it is just hearsay. There is no proof.

Just as you expect us to believe Darth Vader's quotes. Q and Vader are both canon characters that can be expected to deliver accurate descriptions of THEMSELVES especially as they are both susceptible to posturing and preening.

Sorry, but they don;t get to play via the Temporal Prime Directive.

Crap Scotty, the Time Ship Relativity has intervened in events that threatened the formation of the UFP of their time. Losing to a Warsie invasion would count.

You'd have to prove they were not part of it after the invasion began. You'd also have to prove they would interfere when their own laws say they won't

No I do not. You're the one merging canons willy-nilly.

1: Actually, you are assuming SW droids are mindless. They just have limited functions.

Because they are. They follow orders blindly.

2: Incorrect, many people in the robotics field wish to implement these laws as soon as we have machines smart enough to comprehend them.

This has no bearing on Wars OR Trek canon.

3: I was not saying he was neccessarily programmed with them but as Isaac Asimov was a Astrophysicist as well as a brilliant author it is likely Data had read the books and knew of them. He might have even chose to practice them of his own accord.

True, but I believe you alluded to it purposefully to attempt to justify your previous argument. You are either assuming much or placing your own wishes in the mind of someone else's character. Both forms of fallacious arguments.

Actually, it doesn;t matter plot device. plot device means nothing when you examne canon. Only what is seen on screen. What we see is an idiot android.

Jeez, don't get your undies in a knot over a sidebar discussion.

Acutally in Shadows of the Empire, there is a droid who can do everything Data can, pass as human to scanners and was actually emulating love for her master.

Books are not canon. Neither are video games. According to you (see your first line). Or do you wish to have your only advantage back?

And he misses more often than Riker and Worf. both of whom missed a sauntering alien at five meters in a narrow hallway.

Data does not miss. His opponent(s) might have the ability to avoid shots.

And I'm curious as to the episode/movie you refer to with Riker and Worf.

Data cannot possibly compare to all droid types. He is not a surgeon. He a leading scholar in all forms of science. He cannot even begin to calculate hyperspace jumps.....

- Data has assisted Dr Crusher on Locutus and Geordi.
- Hyperspace is not a Trek form of drive, therefore you cannot state with certainty that he cannot calculate HS jumps. Data merely has not had a reason to.

What you do not get is that if in the SW canon their Galaxy is in the same universe as Earth then it works that way across the board.

What you do not get is that Lucas and Roddenberry are two different people. You do not have the license to merge their creations for the benefit of your own arguments.

What you also do not get Scotty is that I can use the same argument against you.

If the ST canon at Earth is in the same universe as the SW Galaxy, then it works the same way across the board. Therefore Scotty, the Force does not exist.

Or do you finally concede your brain-dead point and realise that the phrase "far far away" could be interpreted as a different universe?

And the Q will not interfere as it is a contest between lesser beings. Antaran can say what he wants but ST canon holds.

Q will definitely stop a war that causes a universal imbalance, which is what the situation would be if SW breaches a universal barrier and it seems as if they were winning. ST canon holds that as stated by the Q Continuum.

[antaran_1979]

1.Actually the controls were not on the outside, mere sone of the emitters much like Star Trek vessles are covered with emitters. Still like I explained earlier.




2.How can you be sure? All they seemed to be looking for was creative thinking. Seeing as how Q enjoyed torturing some lesser species they may very well think SW humans are perfectly fine. Especially since they are far more enlightened than ST humans.




3.be sure to do Star Wars warfare and not Star trek. ST vessels cannot hope to intercept SW vessels before they reach the target planet. But please use the canon info and not anything saquist or kittamaru have given. Not that they have given any numbers.

1.namely emiters for the fighter bay? in ST the grid is on the outside, but you don't get to shoot it unless the shield is allready down. not to mention the security and SI fields are all internal. that part of epIII is just a bad plot device.

2.more like he was looking for non-trigger happy alternative. an imperial commander would ocupy the Bandi homeworld by force and use the station. a perfect reason for the Q continuum to interveane.

3. i can't really define the warfare. all i can do is program the weapon's speed and damage variables as well as sublight speeds. the basic presumption would be a fight to the death over a neutreal planet or empty space. no retreats, no warp strifing. i calibrate the wepons so they match the on screen counterparts since the damage is calcualted in damage points, not jules. the shields are my greatest problem. i can't make them behave as we see them do. we basicly have the following parameters:
a. maximum shield streinght (in damage points)
b. shiled recharge rate

as you can see we lack the total damage capacity, that being the damge before the shield colapses (not the damge required to penetrate it). by brother got the idea to twinkle with the shield generator system, so that the shield damage is partially transfered to it. once the generator reaches critical damage it will become disabled, that results in total shield failure.

the range of the battle would not exceed 50km, so only on screen like battles are possible (visual engagements). i will not take controll of any ship and will simply opserve from a cloaked vesel.

the goal of this test is to determine the tactical parameters of the engagement. i can't possibly hope to cope with the strategy behind it. still even in my most optimistic predictions the GCS would not be advantageous enough to stop a full scale attack from the empire. there are just too many of them. if there are say max of 50 GCSs, and 20000 ISDs that si over 4000 ISDs per GCS. i hope to establish what is the max threat UFP could hope to repell in a frontal assult.

[antaran_1979]

[QUOTE=TW Scott;2061282]

Not even going to bother...cop out.[/qupte]

What you do not get is that if in the SW canon their Galaxy is in the same universe as Earth then it works that way across the board.

And the Q will not interfere as it is a contest between lesser beings. Antaran can say what he wants but ST canon holds.

i don't think so. even if there is Earth in SW, it is unlikely that is the same Earth in ST. actually the Earth in ST is not the same Earth we live on to begin with.

[Lord Vasago]

[QUOTE=antaran_1979;2062042]

i don't think so. even if there is Earth in SW, it is unlikely that is the same Earth in ST. actually the Earth in ST is not the same Earth we live on to begin with.

now you got me confused. Explain this please

[Lord Vasago]

data is an android. nothing a emp can't handle. Hell even when he's smarter and more capable let him handle a few thousand droids.
So ST have lost one of there 3 morethanremotecontrolledcars droids. Euh what has SW still left in there locker ? oh yeah MILLIONS.

although i would put data and c3pio in a room together and just bore us to death lmao. two golden tincans picking on eathother.



i've been thinking about Q for a while now because in my opinion thats about the only threath (except maybe the future feds -- but a master Jedi would see them comming ).
But the solution for q is just so simple.
Q's kid created some planets while playing. so if the kid wants to play with his toys what would he'd prefer??
Some puppets in some silly gay pj's or some cool robotic like troopers.
Some tiny flying saucer or some motherf$$$ng badass looking ssd.