Star Wars vs Star Trek

[TW Scott]

could it not be why in SW they don't use mirrors or chrome because the lasers in SW are infact not the kind of lazer as we know it? I mean that it is not just light.

Well we know thagt Blasters and Turbolaser and even lasers in SW are not actual lasers. First of all they have recoil and they have mass. Mirrors would probably not help at all.

Same thing whit the tanks fireing. Then blow up stuff butt leave but a scratch on the enviroment. Maybe it where ecoblasts lmao *joke*
But it could actually mean that the lazers have diferent effects on different materials? Just as phasers do.

Actually is it so hard to believe that a general tank design would not have a variable power setting on their main gun. If your fighting infantry would you not want low power rapid fire?

It is infact unlogic that our very own lasers can cut through very dense metal so the lasers of a civilasation 10 000years ahead of us can't do more than that????????????

Actually Only ship board phasers have been shown to cut dense metal with any efficency. Hand phasers have been know to be able to weld some metals and vaporize light metals like aluminum. But a light packing crate will stop a phaser dead in it;s tracks.

[Kittamaru]

Uh... no... Romulan ships are far larger, better shielded, and better armed than a Galaxy class... hence why they're almost as fast even with a Quantum Singularity Drive.

[Kittamaru]

Uhm... handheld phasers have been shown to vaporize a human being. Instantly.

That takes more than "mild welding" power levels...

[Flectarn]

Actually Only ship board phasers have been shown to cut dense metal with any efficency. Hand phasers have been know to be able to weld some metals and vaporize light metals like aluminum. But a light packing crate will stop a phaser dead in it;s tracks.

Observe.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=966

[Hellblade8]

The Tarkin Instute was hidden in the Maw and collection of super black holes that would rend normal stars aprt in second. Ships could barely plot hyperspace routes through parts of it becuase of area of dead gravity where the two or more blackholes exerted the same amount of gravity in opposite directions. Still two different frieghters surived being within half a million miles of the black holes in real space. Yeah you read that right frighter.

As for yoyager escapeing a black hole. it barely escaped a singularity field where the singularities were producing only fraction of normal earth gravity. It takes 100% of ships power to take off from a 1G word. There is no way it could survive the Maw. Becuase it would not have the astronomical data SW has on it.

Really? That isn't what George Lucas said:

TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"
LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

Kinda sucks that Luke's going to be a virgin forever though...

Medical base. No the Tarkin center was a high energy research facility

According to the quote above, Tarkin never existed in Star Wars.

Yes and they can barely contain them.

What do you mean, barely? They contain them just fine, we only see a problem when they had an alien creature try to use one for a nest, which tore up space-time.

They are artifical constructs and the slightest thing gos wrong and the ship implodes. They also produce far less power than the Antimatter drives of their top speeds would be better. In other words an inefficent experiment on their part.

Is that why their ships are more powerful than a Galaxy class starship?

Actually a Megaton would not vaporize a small tonw by a long shot. It would knock one down sure, but htere would be debrics left everywhere.

Um, there would be debries for may megaton level shots; but most of the town would be a gone. We're talking about a weapon that was a hundred times as strong as the bomb we dropped on a city; a small town would likely not be around anymore.

And you are wrong about the movies not agreeing. Never once have they fired on anything that we can estimate the power needed to destroy and failed to destroy or vaporize said object. this does mean ship and shields are out of estimation equations as we cannot be sure of the specific heat of Durasteel or Duraarmor.

Actually, during the Clone Wars, we saw that a CIS cruiser firing at an escape pod, missed and failed to create a massive explosion; which would have easily killed Yoda and the clones.

Furthermore, the yields you claim is several times higher than the ones seen in the series, and is part of non-canon, as seen here:

TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"
LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"

Have you seen a single Capital ship weapon fired on a planet on full power? Clone Wars by the way is not considered a movie and is below both the novelizations and any reference books. It should also be of note that all games are dead last in canon.

You're wrong even when it comes to EU!

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

T-canon[1] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee[2].

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III.

T-Canon is clearly above C canon. Any other claims?

Okay you do see the initla explosion of the impact, but this is a small fraction of the power involved. If the object is too large or sturdy to break apart with the energy of the weapon. You make see large chunks blown out of walls like in ANH, you may see long tear marks in metal walls ala ANH, you may see harded walls of a mining facility riddles with holes ala ESB. You may see tree have the bark blown off them by a near miss. All this with the low power hand weapons.

Yeah, only small holes that end. We don't see them keep going. We're never told this. If this was the truth, a Canon would simply dial up its yields and fire into a mass of enemy troops because the shots would simply punch right through them. Hell, depending on how stupid the clones or droids are that day, you'd get them all lined up in a row!

No, instead we see that they just blow holes into walls at best; spark at worst.

[antaran_1979]

could it not be why in SW they don't use mirrors or chrome because the lasers in SW are infact not the kind of lazer as we know it? I mean that it is not just light.

.......

Same thing whit the tanks fireing. Then blow up stuff butt leave but a scratch on the enviroment. Maybe it where ecoblasts lmao *joke*
But it could actually mean that the lazers have diferent effects on different materials? Just as phasers do.

you read my mind
actually this was the main point of my very first posts on this thread, but noone seamed to follow up. they just wanted to mesure who's watts are longer

i speculated that phasers and turbo"lasers" are in esence very siimilar weapons, seing how they are very selective in their damage isuing and lack of any pyrothechincs.

[antaran_1979]

Crazy is 90% better than aimed at you

thta is a very dangerous gamble with an exotic particle

the effect of the distrotion might accelerate it and we don't want that to happen.

[antaran_1979]

No - the forcefield will simply expand as controlled by the computer to keep the volume the same.

you might need a big forcefield sooner or later.

[antaran_1979]

1.Actually SW labs tend to sit in the middle of Black Hole cluster, in the corona of supernova, or orbiting nuetrons stars They tend to exist in place where even the most insane STY dare not go.



2.The problem is the smallest imperfection allow massive heating of a small area damaging the miror even more and dust on the surface tends to explosively vaporize damaging the mirors as well.



3.True, but if you can create gravity on that level, eg Black Hole levels in an variable energy wall, you are already exerting far more energy than ST has ever shown. We're talking power cores that produce the energy of multiple stars. At that point you would still be better off with more efficent means of protection.



4.Alright. We can agree that one one Joule applied over one second equals one watt. However that allso mean one second at one wat is one joule. Nitpicking on how someone states this is not a valid argument.

for example

2 joules at one watt would take 2 seconds

8 joules in one second = 8 watts.

1500 watts for .2 seconds would be 300 joules.







5.Excuse me, but 200 gigatons is nothing compared to the KT even which barely pushed our globe into a mild ice age.

6.Also the explosive shokwave you explain would create work heat, which would indeed melt the area in question. Learn some real physics. Also 200 gigatons hiting a relatively flat surface would shatter nothing. There might be a short geyser of lava as the rock is flash bolied, butthere would be very little shattering. Now if it hit a mountain or basalt monolith, yeah expect some shattering.



7.Provided you use an explosive weapon. An energy weapon kick up little dust as it basically vaporizes what it hits. Aso the focal point of the beam is small. And most of the energy is spent trying to move the beam forward.




8.WWII tanks shells were most HE. They tend to make nice big bangs. Not the small holes of molten or burnt material and energy weapon would. Or just the deep holes even a moden APDSDU round would make.

1. oh my goodness, the bodysnatchers have invaded and TWS was their first victim just kidding....

corona of a supernova????? hahahahahahahahahahhahahahhhahahahahahhahahahahaha hahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahah
i can tell you one thing man, Carl Sagan has turned in his grave. what posesed you to go bazoozoo like that? is your case not bad enough as it is allready?

as for the rest of the "hiding places", well no wonder why noone has ever seen an imperial research lab. i can see how hyperdrives would be screwed in such environements.

2. SW impact point are not that small.

3.we have no idea what conversion process is in use. if the amount of energy they produce is what you say it is, they should not be capable of warping space eighter, yet they do and often it results with creation of unstable wormholes. not to mention cloaking devices which create compleate "shells" of distortions that allow EMs to compleatly bypass them. the fact is, they obviously do all this stuff, and if they do it by wasting less power then they shoul, its even for the better.

4.hey the math is ok, its the nomenclature that's quasi here. it's like saying 1m/s every second is the same as 1m/s but it's not. one is used for speed the other of delta speed (acceleration).

5.see the nuclear war threat analatists tend to disagree with you. and let's not fool our selves. if ONE tank has 200GT per one shot, just imagine a batalion of tanks doing a barage.

6.transfering gigajules of energy in a time frame of 1s or under will cause superheeting and supersonic transfer of energy. if this happens, the object will not get the time to melt, it will turn to plasma.a rapidly expanding plasma which is what creates teh shockwave in the first place. the melting will result later on, after the resulting fireball has "cooled down" and lifted a bit.

7. read above (6+2)

8.nonsence, HE was used by assult guns and ifantry suport tanks mostly. 3/4 of all tanks ware anti-armour tanks or universal designs. they did have diferent types of ammo aboard, but their main ammo was the AP anti tank round. ans you can see these guns in action on many documentaries.

[Kittamaru]

you might need a big forcefield sooner or later.

Only need to absorb a few shots while you target the TL turrets with a spread of phaser fire or torpedoes.

[antaran_1979]

1.Yes and they can barely contain them. They are artifical constructs and the slightest thing gos wrong and the ship implodes. They also produce far less power than the Antimatter drives of their top speeds would be better. In other words an inefficent experiment on their part.



2.Actually a Megaton would not vaporize a small tonw by a long shot. It would knock one down sure, but htere would be debrics left everywhere.

3.And you are wrong about the movies not agreeing. Never once have they fired on anything that we can estimate the power needed to destroy and failed to destroy or vaporize said object. this does mean ship and shields are out of estimation equations as we cannot be sure of the specific heat of Durasteel or Duraarmor.

1.yes they can beraly contain them. but their entire fleet of warbirds is using them? just barely :P lol
those same warbirds that outgun the GCS, are comparable in shielding and slightly slower in warp? funky business that...

2. a 2.5 megaton impact would create a crater of several hundred meters in diameter (depending on the composition of the area) as a result of vaporization/melting and even larger as a result of energy transfer/shockwave.

3.not the ships, but the tanks did. and the same source that gives us values on both, gives us the relations of their firepower. in ex. the point defence on ships is the same streinght as the tank's guns. thus by extrapolation, their main TLs are far weeker.

[antaran_1979]

Actually is it so hard to believe that a general tank design would not have a variable power setting on their main gun. If your fighting infantry would you not want low power rapid fire?

i would use a megaton blast to wipe the entire division with one hit.

[antaran_1979]

Observe.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=966

bye-bye Hathaway...i mean TWS

[antaran_1979]

Only need to absorb a few shots while you target the TL turrets with a spread of phaser fire or torpedoes.

can't say really. those are not real lasers anyway. but if some portion of them is, then that portion is harmless to a warp capable ship.

[Kittamaru]

Either way, Star Trek has 2 easy I-Win buttons:

TransPhasic Torpedoes
Chroniton Torpedoes

[TW Scott]

i would use a megaton blast to wipe the entire division with one hit.

Unfortunately an energy weapon does not work like that. The blast may barry the destructive capability of a megaton but it is the ultimate shaped charge. Agfainst infantry it would be like using Uranium Discarding Sabot rounds. you drill a holle through any that lined up, but get negligable blast radius.

Now a ship based weapon system fired from space on a wide dispersion could probably do that, but we're talking hundred of miles for the beam to widen a bit.

[TW Scott]

[QUOTE=antaran_1979;2045207]1.yes they can beraly contain them. but their entire fleet of warbirds is using them? just barely :P lol
those same warbirds that outgun the GCS, are comparable in shielding and slightly slower in warp? funky business that...[/qupte]


Actually the Warbird in question barely outguns a Galxy class starship despite being twice the size, has the same shielding but with reduced regenrative capabilities and has an absolute maximum warp speed of SIX versus a GCS which has pulled 9.8.

The Warbirds also are incredibly volatile once shielding is lost it takes a hit or two to destroy the vessel. Versus ships like the GCS which has been known to take dozens of hits.

2. a 2.5 megaton impact would create a crater of several hundred meters in diameter (depending on the composition of the area) as a result of vaporization/melting and even larger as a result of energy transfer/shockwave.

Correct, if the the hit was explosive or a large blunt meteor. Now imagine a needle sharp impact tranfering in heat as it disperses in you, but mostly it's energy is ude keep moving forward. You get a smaller area of molten material and perhaps a geyser like effect as material below in flash vaporized and expanding.

3.not the ships, but the tanks did. and the same source that gives us values on both, gives us the relations of their firepower. in ex. the point defence on ships is the same streinght as the tank's guns. thus by extrapolation, their main TLs are far weeker.

Sorry, but Canon does stand. Just becuase you can't understand the difference between Explosives and Energy weapons does not invalidate the finding of Physicists who do. Remember in ICS you are disputing a well known and respected astrophysicist and not just some fanboy.

I have explained above why you do not see similar effects. If you can't understand the diffence in the mechanics please ask question of local phyicists in your area.

[TW Scott]

1. oh my goodness, the bodysnatchers have invaded and TWS was their first victim just kidding....

corona of a supernova????? hahahahahahahahahahhahahahhhahahahahahhahahahahaha hahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahah
i can tell you one thing man, Carl Sagan has turned in his grave. what posesed you to go bazoozoo like that? is your case not bad enough as it is allready?

as for the rest of the "hiding places", well no wonder why noone has ever seen an imperial research lab. i can see how hyperdrives would be screwed in such environements.

He probably did roll over in his grave. But then again I am sure every episode of Star trek TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise would have had the same effect if he had been in his grave for most of those.

I meant corona of stars on the verge of supernova, but was a typo, I do apologize.

2. SW impact point are not that small.

Actually to exploit said weakness you'd want a wider impact anyways in order to assure you get as many flaws as possible. However the bolts are rarely more than one or two meters in diameter

3.we have no idea what conversion process is in use. if the amount of energy they produce is what you say it is, they should not be capable of warping space eighter, yet they do and often it results with creation of unstable wormholes. not to mention cloaking devices which create compleate "shells" of distortions that allow EMs to compleatly bypass them. the fact is, they obviously do all this stuff, and if they do it by wasting less power then they shoul, its even for the better.

Actually they create bubbles of time space and take apart the space in front of them and reassemble it behind them according to most accepted theory. While this process does indeed call for an extreme amount of power it seems rely more on the type of field you generate. And if it is indeed graviton based, then the ships would be largely invisble as the warp field would absorb light fraom around the ship.

Cloaking devices are just sophisticate sensor spoofer and holographic imagers as evidence that all but one suffered from some sort of defect that would allow easy detection.

4.hey the math is ok, its the nomenclature that's quasi here. it's like saying 1m/s every second is the same as 1m/s but it's not. one is used for speed the other of delta speed (acceleration).

Actually the correct nomenclature is 1/m/s/s or one meter per second per second for acceleration. Which is where we have the problem with watts as it is bassically the flow of current measured over a time. It is assumed when you say watts you mean per second. Of course there are variation like kilowatt hour and so forth. I am trying to make sure that the read understand I am using the traditional measurement. To help with rebuttals i will just start referring to Watts and joules.

5.see the nuclear war threat analatists tend to disagree with you. and let's not fool our selves. if ONE tank has 200GT per one shot, just imagine a batalion of tanks doing a barage.

200 GT in an EXPLOSION kicks up major amounts of dust. 200 GT in the effect of a shaped charge or needle strike does not kick up the same amount of material. Though it would influnce local weather for sometime as the ground cools.

By the Way nobody claimed 200 GT tank guns. Hell the 200 GT guns would not fit on vehicle unless it was shuttle carrier sized.

6.transfering gigajules of energy in a time frame of 1s or under will cause superheeting and supersonic transfer of energy. if this happens, the object will not get the time to melt, it will turn to plasma.a rapidly expanding plasma which is what creates teh shockwave in the first place. the melting will result later on, after the resulting fireball has "cooled down" and lifted a bit.

However remeber this initial plasma will be coming fomr a hole about two meters wide and byt the time the matter will have changed state, which still takes time eg 1/40th of a second as in ESB, the beam will have travelled several hundred meters through the medium unless of course it is a Bose–Einstein condensate of the element rubidium, but that is only made in labratories.

7. read above (6+2)

Answered above in 6 and 2.

8.nonsence, HE was used by assult guns and ifantry suport tanks mostly. 3/4 of all tanks ware anti-armour tanks or universal designs. they did have diferent types of ammo aboard, but their main ammo was the AP anti tank round. ans you can see these guns in action on many documentaries.

Actually given the light armor of WWI and WWII tanks .50 caliber machinegun rounds were easily able to pierce the armor of most tank designs. While tanks did carry what could obstentially be called AP rounds they were mosre like HEDP rather than HEAP or HEAT. Solid solid shot rounds were carried but were considered superflous as Armor had not really improved to the point of that need.

[TW Scott]

Observe.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=966

Since the damage was obviously cuased as something inside the wall exploded out i would say Kirk just happened to hit something explosive. You can tell the explosion came form within becuase the 'metal' is bent outwards not inwards. Please stop giving me ammo to use against you. I already have enough.

[Kittamaru]

Unfortunately an energy weapon does not work like that. The blast may barry the destructive capability of a megaton but it is the ultimate shaped charge. Agfainst infantry it would be like using Uranium Discarding Sabot rounds. you drill a holle through any that lined up, but get negligable blast radius.

Now a ship based weapon system fired from space on a wide dispersion could probably do that, but we're talking hundred of miles for the beam to widen a bit.

Uhm... try saying that to the people of Hiroshima...