View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #12621
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince_James View Post
    Saquist:



    Yes, the Deathstar.
    One Deathstar to billions of Genesis Devices.
    Yes I'd expect a civilan to go with the bright and shining object.



    Base Delta Zero attacks have been accomplished by a single ISD.
    I'm affraid it wasn't.


    Geordi never contradicted the captain. He never said: But captain, we can easily cut through with our forward phaser array! I'll calibrate the array right now - no need to use dangerous cloaking technology!
    They could cut through. But the cost would have been destabilizing the asteroid. This was said in the episode. It would be a danger to the ship.
    The cloak was the safest method.




    At least half of the asteroid is reduced to vapour. Smidgens are left untouched.
    So als long as you comprehend they are not the same.
    In contrast Enterprise left no debris at all.
    Another clear comparison favoring the phaser.




    I never suggested that glancing shots from fighters aimed at other fighters were going to blow up violently asteroids. Only turbolasers show that level of power. That being said, fighters do have the power to do so, when equipped with the right power. See: Slave 1.
    These were not glancing shots. I suggest a picture to prove your case if you want to convince me otherwise.
    Slave1 is not a fighter. No fighter has been equiped with the power to vaporize and asteroid.




    Ground penetration is another feature entirely of weapons. Consider the fact that for all the power of a MOAB deployed by the US military, it has virtually no ground penetrative capability.
    The strength of the explosion can be measured through the ejecta which in this case was not focused or with considerable height. We know Star Wars weapons are particle based so the ejecta would be a key factor to determine how far the weapon penetrated. Since there was no superheated magma in any of the shots the conclusion is sound.





    He uses scientific calculations. Unless you're indicting NEwton of pro-Wars support...

    Star Wars isn't based on real science. He's guilty of using reality to explain a fantasy.





    You will note that the Enterprise was firing full power with its only significantly powerful weapon against an unshielded, largely open(as evidenced by the structures of the Cube which are extremely open), enemy vessel. The ISD, on the other hand, was using its lightest weapons to casually blast asteroids out of the path. The ISD has dozens more, and several far more significant weapons. Weapons which through BSD operations, indicate power ranges that are astronomically more impressive
    than cutting through a Borg Cube.
    The phaser is a primary beam weapon. It's power is secondary to the Photon. (Proven in Canon)

    But yes, the comparison was fair.
    Both the ISD and the Galaxy had unshielded object
    Both destroyed their target in a second of time.


    So you agree
    The Enterprise just does it aginst more material than the ISD, and a denser material than the ISD's target. Thus Phaser is far superior to the light turbo laser..


    Essentially the ISD could fire it's enire array of antifighter lasers and it would only equal one second of fire from a Type X phaser array. It's clearlly a fighter weapon.

    As far as your "astronomical" claim that has not been proven.

  2. #12622
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    7,615
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince_James View Post
    Kittamaru:



    You said "make the planet uninhabitable". Which one is it? Habittable settlements? If so, how many settlements? I don't recall the details of this episode. Please recall it for me.

    Uninhabitable... as in, nobody could inhabit the planet... as in the atmosphere was gone.

    The Enterprise went into the thing. A seismic charge is a metal canister which then explodes inside the thing. Why would this be subjected to "energy sucking"?

    The Enterprise did NOT go into the DDD... the Constellation did. And that's because Scotty hard-wired the impulse engines to implode, creating one hell of a blast... it was all on secondary power.

    Incapable of even remotely the same level of travel. Transwarp conduits, for instance, have to be laid down in static positions. Only 5 exist in the ST galaxy - all in the Delta quadrant. They were all destroyed by Voyager _and_ are vastly inferior. You know what Transwarp conduits are called in Star Wars? Hyperspace Gates. They were were superceded by hyperdrive before the founding of the Galactic Republic, 25,000 years BBY.

    No, they don't. Transwarp drive - Voth Style. The TransWarp engines are on the ship. And HyperSpace Gates are, supposedly (at least according to EU) far, FAR faster than modern HyperSpace drive... just nobody knows how to keep them running.

    Star Wars can equip fighters with hyperspace that can transverse the galaxy in hours.

    And Star Trek can equip their ships with a temporal warp drive, able to traverse TIME at will. Thus, Trek could go back in time and obliterate the entire Star Wars galaxy before they ever become space faring cultures!

    How would you detect something which you have no idea where it is going? Even if you could detect it and attempt to destroy it in time, the missiles themselves are heavily armoured and shielded, to the point where it is likely that they will easily strike the planet in question. In cases of perhaps...Earth or Romulus, where maybe the fleets would be concentrated, one need only drop a Deathstar II onto of their asses with a fleet of ISDS. Then there goes Earth after it is cut to pieces.

    Only one problem - there are no more DeathStars... lol. If you want to bring old tech back and reproduce it, I introduce the DysonSphere. We'll encase your planetary systems with these impenetrable, Neutronium beasts. No more star = you all quickly die. Also - easy way to beat the Death Star 1 or 2... TransPhasic torps, TriCobalt Torpedoes, or even Type 13 starbase heavy phaser arrays or Type 15 planetary based phaser arrays... or even better - simply tractor beam the DeathStar into pieces... no Structural Integrity Field... and consider the Ent-D managed to move a MOON... on it's OWN... *grins*

    It also was useful for blowing up space stations, apparently. Pardon me if the very suspiciously random properties of trilithium give it an obvious reason for why it is not used as the defacto explosive material of every torpedo.

    TriLithium is a byproduct of M/AM reactions... Photon Torps ARE a M/AM warhead... duh?

    There is no "Mirror" on the list of episodes. Which episode are you referencing? I think you have the title wrong. Also, the Memory Alpha article on Voyager doesn't say anything about the blackhole.

    Sorry, the episode is Parallax

    So yeah: Source?



    Main phaser on an extremely distributed mass against unshielded Borg ships does not a turbolaser beat. Moreover, the ISD was using its lightest TL cannons.

    Yes, it does... because I don't believe ASTEROIDS are shielded... and considering Tritanium is FAR denser than Iron (which is what the Star Wars asteroids are assumed to be by Wongs calculations) that means the phaser array penetrated and destroyed more matter... especially considering that the CUBE is ARMORED!


    You do realize that Star Wars has tractor beams also, yes? That work against significantly larger ships. Which assumes greater power.

    So if you want to play a tug of war, an ISD > Galaxy Class.

    Not at all - Trek has been able to tractor MOONS. The funny part about all this - gravity = no hyperdrive... but gravity wells don't affect warp drive at all.

    Routinely these "phasic" technologies have shields developed to face them.

    Only one problem - not ONCE do we see Star Wars analyzing enemy tactics and countering them (at least not in the movies, the highest cannon)

    That's clearly how 100,000 years of space-faring civilization's battles have wroked. Right. Everyone underestimates everyone in Star Wars.

    Well, according to the HIGHEST CANNON SOURCE, the MOVIES, yes, they do. The Empire continuously underestimates the Rebels...

    Yes, I am certain that is correct.

    Please, watch the movies and tell me that every battle is won by underestimation. Or read any of the EU books, comics, and other material. Nothing indicates that whatsoever. The Vong certainly did not underestimate the New Republic.

    No, most battles are LOST by underestimation, on the part of the Empire.

    BS. The Aing-Ti monks would laugh at the Q and tell them to fuck off and not try to use omnipotent powers. Then they'd de-Qify some Qs to make a point. A fact which can be accomplished by other Qs, which incidates it is possible.

    One problem - Q can remove the ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE from existance... The Q Continuum can remove a Q's powers... but if you didn't notice, they still retain their knowledge. The only thing they can't do is alter the multiverse anymore... and the Aing-Ti are NOT Q, so they can't de-q the Q. If anything, the Aig-Ti MIGHT be the precursor to the Q Continuum... which would mean the Q are still stronger.

    So?

    Warp warps space. There is no movement. The Enterprise is stationary during warp travel. Don't you know the technology whatsoever, bro?

    Uh, no... Warp does involve movement... hence why it's a multiple of C... the universe doesn't move, it just bends. The ship, however, moves...

    Proof of this - Voyager went to warp without a warp field (and it's the WARP FIELD that warps space!


    Hyperspace can go 20 million times C, stop, then go back the same way in a second. What's your issue?

    No, it can't. For one, they can't go 20 million times C... highest C rating I've seen on your wiki's and other such nonsense, EVEN OVERBLOWN FANBOY WANK, is about 4x the max speed of warp drive! Consiering th at in Voyager, it was stated BLUNTLY that Voyager (at the time the fastest ship) was able to exceed 42 BILLION KILOMETERS PER SECOND! That works out as follows:
    Warp Factor 9.9998 is equivalent to 141889 times C (the speed of light), or about 42537252073 kilometers per second.


    I haven't ever bothered to count. Ships tend to miss other ships. That's how...........things work. In hectic battles. Especially against fast moving, small objects - something which ST doesn't have. Shuttles aren't used in combat and they are barely armed.

    Star Trek has Peregrine attack fighters... and small Maquis ships, small starships like the Defiant and Venture routinely use their agility to avoid incoming weapons fire... and when you consider that often times Star Trek is fighting at speeds in excess of 4/5 the speed of light, managing to hit ANYTHING is something impressive, considering Star Wars has trouble hitting High Mach number targets!

    I meant hyperspace FTL travel, rather than non-hyperspace FTL. I.E. Xim the Despot level technology as the backup. Sorry for the confusion.

    Hoth to Bespin is in the order of several dozen lightyears. They are in different star systems.

    Then obviously he was going FASTER THAN LIGHT! LIGHT YEARS = DISTANCE LIGHT TRAVELS IN A YEAR. If he made it there in UNDER A YEAR he was going FASTER THAN LIGHT... RIGHT?

    The Star Wars ship will be sending out a horde of fighters flying at fractions of C after the capital ships, while engaging tractor beams and firing in saturation patterns. Also, as the Empire won't be faced with the same degree of electronic warfare jamming as they are used to, they will likely be initiating auto attack mechanisms to blast the Fed ships into smitherines.

    Actually, a Federation active subspace pulse will likely fry all onboard equipment of an ISD... the Federation can emit pulses FAR stronger than your average Ion Cannon and not do ANYTHING to their own ships. Also - TIE's... heh... what a fucking joke. TIE fighters they would use multiple shots from the same array to vaporize the unshielded buckets of bolts... TIE Interceptors and Bombers would probably face the same demise... or a spread of proximity detonation Quantum Torpedoes...

    Moreover, as evidenced by DS9, the speeds stay within the orbit of a planet. The only move that uses faster speed is the Picard Manuevre, which uses relativistic effects to force an after image effect that is confusing.

    Not at all... what you are trying to say is that because at some point we see them moving x speed, they are UNABLE to move beyondd x speed ever... that doesn't work as we see multiple times where they fight at HIGH WARP SPEEDs even!

    We never see a Star Destroyer attack a planet in the movies. What are you talking about?

    EXACTLY! What we do see are ISD's fail to obliterate asteroid belts... if an ISD had the power to slag a planet, a bunch of rocks would not be a problem.

    If we did see a Star Destroyer unleash fucking hell on a planet, then we'd be talking about that rather than the comics. But we don't. The closest we could have got was Hoth, but Hoth was heavily shielded. Thus the ground attack to take out the shield so BSD could commence. Alas, the Empire failed to do what they intended before the Rebels could ion canon the shit out of the ISD fleet.

    And thus we cannot claim an ISD can do it because the highest cannon shows it cannot even overwhelm a PALTRY PLANETARY SHIELD.

    The comic canon does not contradict the movie in this case. If it did, I would - as would all other Warsies - talk about the movie, not the comics. That is the established canon rules.

    Except Movies = Highest Cannon... and as ISD's are vulnerable to asteroids, they have no hope of taking out planets.

    There is volatile equipment now? What? The ship inside the asteroid was fused with it. There was nothing to worry about.

    Except damaging the phase cloak would have had unknown results.



    They can safely be assumed? Says who? Seismic charges are a relatively rare weapon, but there is no reason they should not work on "armoured targets". They blast to smitherines entire asteroids and propogate THROUGH space.

    Well it works for your side... according to TW Scott, since we never see TriCobalt devices used on shielded targets, they must NOT be able to penetrate shields. Works both ways - which way do you want it?

    What episode had a phaser drill to the bottom of a planet? I recall the scene vaguely, but give me an ep title or number, please.

    No Idea to be honest... I can't remember the name

    Also....what is that supposed to prove? That a phaser is a nice cutting laser? What next, you are going to discuss the military applications of laser scapels?

    At MINIMAL power output (read, less than 1%) a Phaser makes a very nice cutting laser. At higher power, a HAND PHASER can cause a large bodied person to CEASE TO EXIST - not vaporize, as there is no Vapor left... they just are obliterated with no residue!

    Bunker busters are specially made for ground penetration, my friend who rides the short bus to school. Tank shells for the droid tanks clearly are not. Nor are any tank shells. Tank shells are line-of-sight weapons. They are not bunker penetrators.

    Aight, you ever see what happens when a HEAT round misses? It leaves a small crater. The tank round from the droid tank left NOTHING AT ALL, not even a big black spot! NOTHING!

    Where did you get your BS in Engineering, my good man?

    Oh wait. You did not.



    how am I supposed to accept a source which has no calculations? That's like saying "please take this all on faith". BS! I ain't taking shit on faith! Give me analysis.

    He does prove it with in show evidence! You can't "calculate" a lot of what we argue about becuase there are no EXACT NUMBERS

    A cube is heavily open. Dude, have yuo not seen ANY of the eps where they go into one? The thing is practically open to the vacuum of space in many areas.

    How far can your eye see in that cube? I'd reckon maybe a few hundred METERS at most. A Cube is a few THOUSAND meters long. Some of which is the outer hull + armor! Remember the scene in First Contact, where they focus fired on one spot on the cube? That was at LEAST a 12 meter deep section of ARMOR! (Q-torp is 6 meters long, and the hole was at LEAST 4 times the length of the Q-Torp... assuming only half the depth was hull, even though it was VERY solid... that rounds to 12 METERS of TriTanium ARMOR.

    It doesn't matter how big the Cubes are if they are mostly empty space.



    Source.



    Comic shows one ISD delivering the BDZ. The planet is fucking exploding all over the place from one ISD.

    We SEE one ISD... we also have a VERY limited view of space.

    Of course you can have a fleet of lesser ships do the same. or even a fleet of ISDs do the same A LOT quicker. But one ISD is capable of rendering a BZD in 3 hours.

    And, again, Scotty said the Enterprise could do the same in one hour, and the Defiant is stated to be able to do the same in MINUTES. By people that know their ships INSIDE AND OUT!

    According to KOTOR, 5000 years BBY, the Leviathan Sith Warship was capable of BZDs.
    Anything else you want to bitch and whine about?

  3. #12623
    Prince James, it sounds like you're just making the most minimum amount of effort to argue. Why don't you pull some canon to prove your point. Few people will read the links. Honestly if you are not bothered to isolate the text or images which support your theory why should I labor over all the links your provided. Most people Have read the Destroyer.net information. It's slanted to Star Wars and against Trek. There is nothing Objective about the analysis when you refer to the other side as Federation cultist. I think I stopped reading about there and realized he was taking this far too seriously.

    Untill you prove otherwise. The phaser beats the anti-fighter turbo laser by 60 times (proven and on screen) and is in competition against the heavier turbo lasers. Where the phaser falls short the Photon and Quantum Torpedo more than make up for. The odds tip in the Federations favor because of more unique and advanced technology. They've been mentioned before and are quite common as weapons in Star Trek.

    So...whether you accept it or not. Right now it's definitive that the phaser and the other Trek Weapons are far ahead of the most common TL (antifighter) and on par or above with heavy weaponry. For me to change my thinking you will have to layout some new information that is just as clear or find an error in my analysis. Good Luck!

  4. #12624
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince_James View Post
    Saquist:




    You will note that the Enterprise was firing full power with its only significantly powerful weapon against an unshielded, largely open(as evidenced by the structures of the Cube which are extremely open), enemy vessel. The ISD, on the other hand, was using its lightest weapons to casually blast asteroids out of the path. The ISD has dozens more, and several far more significant weapons. Weapons which through BSD operations, indicate power ranges that are astronomically more impressive than cutting through a Borg Cube.
    The bold is an irrelevant statement.
    Data states that they've destroyed 20% of the Cube.
    This of a vessel constructed with Tritanium. As further proof look back at the image. The crater is as wide as the Enterprise which is some 400 meters wide. My estimate of destroyed material was 240m (spherical) that accounts for some 50% of the volume in the crater. At 240 meters that still equals a whole Miranda Class star ship in Trek and then some which is 233 meters long. All this in one burst of phasers at maximum

    May I remind you, your argument has not disproven the facts as they've been layed out. You've not provided your own research or your own observations.

    Not to mention in the episode the Ninth Degree Geordi can get the phasers even "hotter". And to PROVE that we've seen this happen before on a ship of the same size...The enterprise D destroyed the USS Lantree, a Miranda class starship (TNG Unnatural Selection) with a single torpedo strike. The ship was completely vaporized with no debreis at all.) We know trek and Star Wars are more equals than Wong proposes. This argument proves his Trek estimates wrong on every level.

  5. #12625
    some planet bashing quotes fom TOS... a little more vague than dies is cast, but oh well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whom Gods Destroy Transcript
    We could blast our way through the field,
    but only at the risk of destroying the captain, Mr. Spock...
    and any other living thing on Elba ll.
    How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet...
    and still be so helpless ?
    Spock and Scotty Talking.

    It's worth noting that the inhabited area of Exba II is fairly small... but Scotty, the chief engineer still feels the enterprise is able to "wipe out a planet"

    it's also interesting that Garth, an inhabitant of the planet has apparently developed an explosive of such power that a "flask" full could vaporize the planet

    Quote Originally Posted by Whom Gods Destroy Transcript
    I wouldn't want him to miss any of it.
    Well, Captain, even you must admit that I'm a genius.
    What you see here is my latest invention.
    This is an explosive,
    the most powerful one in history.
    If I were to drop this flask,
    the resulting explosion would vaporize this planet.
    Now do you see why it is ridiculous to resist me ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsession transcript
    The blast, yes.
    Exactly. A matter/antimatter blast
    will rip away halfthe planet's atmosphere.
    If our vessel is in orbit
    and encounters those shock waves --
    A chance we'll have to take.
    The transporter may not operate under those conditions.
    If a man is beaming up when that hits,
    we may lose him
    Quote Originally Posted by Obsession Transcript
    Just think, Captain,
    less than one ounce of antimatter here
    is more powerful than 10,000 cobalt bombs.
    Let's hope it's as powerful as man will ever get
    apparently Trek anti-matter is special... and obsencenly powerful. This would have the effect of upping the destrucitive potetial of Techmanual Torpedos considerably The cobalt bomb bit isn't terribly useful since the primary method of destruction there is radioacitve fallout.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_bomb
    http://www.voyager.cz/tos/epizody/72...stroytrans.htm
    Last edited by Flectarn; 05-31-08 at 02:09 AM.

  6. #12626
    Plutarch (Mickey's Dog)
    Posts
    9,214
    Flectarn:

    On the Die is Cast:

    http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_..._%28episode%29

    As the Cardassian-Romulan fleet fires on the Founders' homeworld, they are initially pleased with the damage they are doing to the planet, but Garak quickly discerns that the Founders are using an automated transponder to send back false life sensor readings from the planet. Suddenly, 150 Jem'Hadar ships emerge from the Omarion Nebula and engage the fleet. The Battle of the Omarion Nebula begins and the Jem'Hadar begin to annihilate the fleet. This engagement is later compared by Admiral Toddman to the Battle of Wolf 359.

    Methinks that, once again, Star Trek is over estimating its own power. As evidenced later when the Dominion Fleet of Jem'Hedar and Breen ships unleashes its full power against Cardassia Prime and kills less than a billion Cardassians and only manages to lay to waste the major cities. No crust melting. No "continents to glass" (a phrase used quite litterally by Canderous the Mandalorian in 5,000 BBY). Nothing.

    The Romulan Fleet's incapacity to stop the Dominion is more evidence of the fact that they are speaking out of their asses on their own military effectiveness. They were bamboozled by the Dominion, who then went to summarily crush the Romulan interlopers.

    DS9, by the way, kicks ass. Lots of violence.

  7. #12627
    Plutarch (Mickey's Dog)
    Posts
    9,214
    Saguist:

    One Deathstar to billions of Genesis Devices.
    Yes I'd expect a civilan to go with the bright and shining object.
    When Star Trek produces one billion Genesis Devices, call me.

    I'm affraid it wasn't.
    See the image I provided. One ISD. Not a fleet of ships.

    They could cut through. But the cost would have been destabilizing the asteroid. This was said in the episode. It would be a danger to the ship.
    The cloak was the safest method.
    Why would it be anymore dangerous than using a proven faulty cloaking device?

    So als long as you comprehend they are not the same.
    In contrast Enterprise left no debris at all.
    Another clear comparison favoring the phaser.
    Where did the Enterprise blow up any asteroids with its phasers so utterly?

    These were not glancing shots. I suggest a picture to prove your case if you want to convince me otherwise.
    Slave1 is not a fighter. No fighter has been equiped with the power to vaporize and asteroid.
    Slave 1 is not a "fighter"? Only. Gunship? Extremely light freighter? Contrast its size and armament with a standard fighter. The distinguishing factors are null.

    Again: No one is claiming that fighters blow up asteroids in Star Wars the size of the asteroids in that belt. Enormous ones with fucking space worms inside several. These are fucking planetoids like Ceres. No fighter is going to blow that shit up and I freely admit it. Tie and X-wing fighters do not normally come equipped with stuff to blow that up. However, in AOTC, we see HUGE asteroids blown up by the SLave 1, with appropriate weapons for the task. Tremendous, hulking asteroids. Not on par with space-worm asteroids, but certain hundreds of metres large - more than skyscrapers worth of rock and iron.

    The strength of the explosion can be measured through the ejecta which in this case was not focused or with considerable height. We know Star Wars weapons are particle based so the ejecta would be a key factor to determine how far the weapon penetrated. Since there was no superheated magma in any of the shots the conclusion is sound.
    Actually, Star Wars weapons do not follow one method. Star Wars has:

    Shells
    Missiles/Torpedos
    Blasters
    Ion beams
    Disruptor Beams
    Turbolasers
    Sonic Waves
    Ambigious

    Penetrative ability is a feature of weapons designed with penetration in mind. A tank shell not calibrated to penetration is not going to penetrate anything. This is why bunkers are effective against anything but bunker buster weapons.

    Star Wars isn't based on real science. He's guilty of using reality to explain a fantasy.
    Okay, then if we can't reference real science, then here's my invincible argument.

    Star Wars kicks ass.
    That which kicks ass always wins
    Therefore, Star Wars wins.

    Please. You know full well that this entire debate falls apart if we can't use science to help us calculate power.

    The phaser is a primary beam weapon. It's power is secondary to the Photon. (Proven in Canon)

    But yes, the comparison was fair.
    Both the ISD and the Galaxy had unshielded object
    Both destroyed their target in a second of time.

    So you agree
    The Enterprise just does it aginst more material than the ISD, and a denser material than the ISD's target. Thus Phaser is far superior to the light turbo laser..

    Essentially the ISD could fire it's enire array of antifighter lasers and it would only equal one second of fire from a Type X phaser array. It's clearlly a fighter weapon.

    As far as your "astronomical" claim that has not been proven.
    The astronomical claim comes from the real power of an ISD conducting a planet-melting BZD. This is dependent on laws of science which would govern the type of power necessary to melt a planet that significantly.

    Moreover, I don't concede that the ISD's light turbolaser cannons were weaker than the Enterprise. I point to the fact that your object in question has very low density. Borg Cubes are mostly empty space. This is seen time and time again when we see the insides of these mechanical nightmares. An ISD is attacking a solid metal and rock asteroid with light guns for basically target practice and obliterating them. The Enterprise is trying all it can to destroy the Borg Cube and can only cut through some extremely diffused stuff.

    Colour me unimpressed by the power of the main weapon compared to the light weapons of the ISD. A main weapon, which as you well know, can only be fired in one beam at once...

  8. #12628
    Plutarch (Mickey's Dog)
    Posts
    9,214
    Kittamaru:

    Uninhabitable... as in, nobody could inhabit the planet... as in the atmosphere was gone.
    Then quite demonstratedly wrong. Planetary bombardment in later series does not result in anything near this. The crew of the Enterprise either has technology far in away more advanced than the crews in DS9, or they....well, they are completely ignorant of what they can and cannot do.

    The Enterprise did NOT go into the DDD... the Constellation did. And that's because Scotty hard-wired the impulse engines to implode, creating one hell of a blast... it was all on secondary power.
    Pardon, it was the Constellation.

    Okay, so...secondary power then rig it to explode.

    Okay, how about we send in a Tie FIghter with a seismic charge inside it? Kaboomies. Problem solved.

    No, they don't. Transwarp drive - Voth Style. The TransWarp engines are on the ship. And HyperSpace Gates are, supposedly (at least according to EU) far, FAR faster than modern HyperSpace drive... just nobody knows how to keep them running.
    I don't know who you are tlaking to, but Hyperspace Gates are not held to be superior whatsoever in EU sources. They are relics of past intergalactic empires who had inferior technology by the time of the Empire. Some super weapons fo past epochs have at times been seen as great. Like the Starforge during KOTOR's time period. But the Hyper Gates? Laughable means of transport!

    Moreover, your Voth transwarp capabilities? Very slow. They aren't able to reach the Alpha Quadrant in hours.

    Place the Millennium falcon in the deepest part of the Gamma or Delta or Beta quadrant. Give Han Solo the order to get himself to Earth. Within two weeks, account for navigation, he'd be there. If he knew a good route, it would take under a day.

    Also, to note: The Aing-Ti monks appear sponteneously wherever they want to with their ships. They blink through space.

    The one speed which does baffle the mind in ST? The Traveller warping them out of the universe past galaxies in seconds. Where "thought and reality intersect" or some shit.

    And Star Trek can equip their ships with a temporal warp drive, able to traverse TIME at will. Thus, Trek could go back in time and obliterate the entire Star Wars galaxy before they ever become space faring cultures!
    There are several artifacts in SW that permit time travel. Suffice it to say, they are not widely used - just like in ST. Moreover, if ST can use time travel to save themselves, why didn't they do it against the Klingons? Or Cardassians? or Dominion? Or Borg?

    Here's an idea: Time travel 100,000 years back. Attack the Borg homeworld. Eviscerate it.

    But no? That doesn't happen. There's a good reason: It cannot be done. Time travel in ST is extremely limited in its effects.

    Well, according to the HIGHEST CANNON SOURCE, the MOVIES, yes, they do. The Empire continuously underestimates the Rebels...

    Yes, I am certain that is correct.

    Please, watch the movies and tell me that every battle is won by underestimation. Or read any of the EU books, comics, and other material. Nothing indicates that whatsoever. The Vong certainly did not underestimate the New Republic.

    No, most battles are LOST by underestimation, on the part of the Empire
    You do realize we are dealing with humans, not robots? When there are cases of underestimation, it is a human flaw. But...not all battles are matters of underestimation on any side. Any objective reading of the movies would not pretend to show that every battle was won "because one side was too confident!"

    I'd also like to point out the insufferable arrogance and unctuousness of the Federation but that is irrelevant.

    One problem - Q can remove the ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE from existance... The Q Continuum can remove a Q's powers... but if you didn't notice, they still retain their knowledge. The only thing they can't do is alter the multiverse anymore... and the Aing-Ti are NOT Q, so they can't de-q the Q. If anything, the Aig-Ti MIGHT be the precursor to the Q Continuum... which would mean the Q are still stronger.
    Q can't erase the universe. He has never even erased a galaxy. The worse he did was destroy a space empire by supernovaing a sun. Sorry, but the Ang-Ti can pull shit like this, too.

    Uh, no... Warp does involve movement... hence why it's a multiple of C... the universe doesn't move, it just bends. The ship, however, moves...

    Proof of this - Voyager went to warp without a warp field (and it's the WARP FIELD that warps space!
    The entire idea of the warp drive is that space is essentially acting as a "wave" which the ship rides. This is how they avoid time dilation, inertia, and breaking C. The ships are not "accelerating" to warp. They are engaging warp - which sends them hurtling on a warp wake. This is why the galaxy was experiencing severe problems when it was found that areas of space were becoming unstable from the heavy warping and thus the mandatory speed limits placed on ships until it was figured out what caused it.

    No, it can't. For one, they can't go 20 million times C... highest C rating I've seen on your wiki's and other such nonsense, EVEN OVERBLOWN FANBOY WANK, is about 4x the max speed of warp drive! Consiering th at in Voyager, it was stated BLUNTLY that Voyager (at the time the fastest ship) was able to exceed 42 BILLION KILOMETERS PER SECOND! That works out as follows:
    Warp Factor 9.9998 is equivalent to 141889 times C (the speed of light), or about 42537252073 kilometers per second.
    Dude, it takes about a day to go from the extreme Outer Rim to the Galactic Core.

    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...opulsion2.html

    The speed is millions of times C. Star Wars is so fast as to make intergalactic travel trivial. This is why we don't talk about quadrants in Star Wars which are absolute boundary points which take decades to cross. Rather, we talk about rims which are political zones -easily bypassable since ancient times-.

    By 25,000 years BBY, humans had gone from Coruscant (outside the galactic core) to Ossus in the Outer Rim. This was before hyperdrive.

    Star Trek has Peregrine attack fighters... and small Maquis ships, small starships like the Defiant and Venture routinely use their agility to avoid incoming weapons fire... and when you consider that often times Star Trek is fighting at speeds in excess of 4/5 the speed of light, managing to hit ANYTHING is something impressive, considering Star Wars has trouble hitting High Mach number targets!
    Star Wars ships can travel just as fast, as evidenced in ESB. That there are times when it is difficult to hit hundreds of small moving targets is fairly natural, considering........that is how it tends to be.

    also, the "small craft" which you speak of? Not particularly small. The Defiant is huge compared to a fighter. It also has a phaser system which seems to be the only in existence that fires quick bolts instead of one long beam.

    Then obviously he was going FASTER THAN LIGHT! LIGHT YEARS = DISTANCE LIGHT TRAVELS IN A YEAR. If he made it there in UNDER A YEAR he was going FASTER THAN LIGHT... RIGHT?
    Dude, I corrected myself. It was an error. Jesus Christ, calm down. Take a fucking sedative man.

    Han Solo, without hyperdrive, navigated the Falcon several dozen lightyears to Bespin. Star Wars ships are accordingly capable of FTL travel without hyperspace.

    Actually, a Federation active subspace pulse will likely fry all onboard equipment of an ISD... the Federation can emit pulses FAR stronger than your average Ion Cannon and not do ANYTHING to their own ships. Also - TIE's... heh... what a fucking joke. TIE fighters they would use multiple shots from the same array to vaporize the unshielded buckets of bolts... TIE Interceptors and Bombers would probably face the same demise... or a spread of proximity detonation Quantum Torpedoes...
    Subspace is an antique technology in Star Wars. It was used in the time of Xim the Despot. You'd thrownig spears at M1 Tank here.

    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...s/Sensor2.html

    Not at all... what you are trying to say is that because at some point we see them moving x speed, they are UNABLE to move beyondd x speed ever... that doesn't work as we see multiple times where they fight at HIGH WARP SPEEDs even!
    Those battles were this:

    Enterprise (or other ship) flees from the other ship. Other ship pursues.

    The only large scale battle we've ever seen did not include such tactics.

    Only one problem - there are no more DeathStars... lol. If you want to bring old tech back and reproduce it, I introduce the DysonSphere. We'll encase your planetary systems with these impenetrable, Neutronium beasts. No more star = you all quickly die. Also - easy way to beat the Death Star 1 or 2... TransPhasic torps, TriCobalt Torpedoes, or even Type 13 starbase heavy phaser arrays or Type 15 planetary based phaser arrays... or even better - simply tractor beam the DeathStar into pieces... no Structural Integrity Field... and consider the Ent-D managed to move a MOON... on it's OWN... *grins*
    Okay, bring a single dyson sphere to bear against the Empire of billions of planets. See how that works out for you, champ.

    You also forget that the Deathstar? Is a moon. And your tractor beams are not going to rip apart a heavily armoured, shielded, and defended battle station. Try those other weapons - they have shown a track record of failure. The Deathstar II was extremely heavily shielded while still under construction. When created, it would have been utterly impossible to defeat by a ny Star Wars power at the time, and would have made the Federation, Borg, et cetera, wet their pants, when it was taking pot shots at planets and blowing them to smitherines without hope of retaliation.

    EXACTLY! What we do see are ISD's fail to obliterate asteroid belts... if an ISD had the power to slag a planet, a bunch of rocks would not be a problem.
    Why would an ISD start blowing up an entire asteroid field as it is pursuing the Rebels? Also, you do realize that asteroid fields are several million individual asteroids? Blowing it up en masse is infeasible. One has to attack it piecemeal.

    The movies never have a situation in which an ISD is situated outside of a planet, waiting to melt it. Only the EU does - and they do very easily and effectively. Tarkin Doctrine.

    And thus we cannot claim an ISD can do it because the highest cannon shows it cannot even overwhelm a PALTRY PLANETARY SHIELD.
    You do realize that shielding is on par with the technologies the Empire has, yes?

    Of course it can't blow through a planetary shield if the shield matches the power the Empire has.

    Except Movies = Highest Cannon... and as ISD's are vulnerable to asteroids, they have no hope of taking out planets.
    Clearing a path is not vulnerable. But why would they just take asteroids slamming into them? That's ridiculous.

    Well it works for your side... according to TW Scott, since we never see TriCobalt devices used on shielded targets, they must NOT be able to penetrate shields. Works both ways - which way do you want it?
    If you want to claim seismic charges would be ineffectual against shields, go ahead. But if this shit hits your ship, it is going to do some damage - as evidenced by the wreckage it does on other things.

    What episode had a phaser drill to the bottom of a planet? I recall the scene vaguely, but give me an ep title or number, please.

    No Idea to be honest... I can't remember the name

    Also....what is that supposed to prove? That a phaser is a nice cutting laser? What next, you are going to discuss the military applications of laser scapels?

    At MINIMAL power output (read, less than 1&#37 a Phaser makes a very nice cutting laser. At higher power, a HAND PHASER can cause a large bodied person to CEASE TO EXIST - not vaporize, as there is no Vapor left... they just are obliterated with no residue!
    When you remember, we can talk about that ep.

    As to hand phasers. Okay. They can vapourize someone. On a low setting, a simple handgun blaster ignited all the internal organs of General Grievous.

    Also, when phasers are used in rifles, the effect seems to be no better then the average blaster pistol.

    Aight, you ever see what happens when a HEAT round misses? It leaves a small crater. The tank round from the droid tank left NOTHING AT ALL, not even a big black spot! NOTHING!
    Again: It is not a penetrative weapon. Why are you expecting there to be some damage when it is clearly not geared towards such?

    He does prove it with in show evidence! You can't "calculate" a lot of what we argue about becuase there are no EXACT NUMBERS
    yes there is. That's what physics is for.

    How far can your eye see in that cube? I'd reckon maybe a few hundred METERS at most. A Cube is a few THOUSAND meters long. Some of which is the outer hull + armor! Remember the scene in First Contact, where they focus fired on one spot on the cube? That was at LEAST a 12 meter deep section of ARMOR! (Q-torp is 6 meters long, and the hole was at LEAST 4 times the length of the Q-Torp... assuming only half the depth was hull, even though it was VERY solid... that rounds to 12 METERS of TriTanium ARMOR.
    You're still not addressing the fact that the "massive gaping hole" was mostly there before it was blown apart. I am not saying the phasers were completely ineffectual at melting and attacking the armour of the Cube. But the Cube is a diffuse ship.

    We SEE one ISD... we also have a VERY limited view of space.
    So we're supposed to assume there is an entire fleet the comic isn't showing?

    LOL.

    That's pretty ridiculous, man!

    And, again, Scotty said the Enterprise could do the same in one hour, and the Defiant is stated to be able to do the same in MINUTES. By people that know their ships INSIDE AND OUT!
    Save when it came time to do so? It failed.

    Cardassia Prime. QED.

  9. #12629
    Plutarch (Mickey's Dog)
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    Saguist:

    Prince James, it sounds like you're just making the most minimum amount of effort to argue. Why don't you pull some canon to prove your point. Few people will read the links. Honestly if you are not bothered to isolate the text or images which support your theory why should I labor over all the links your provided. Most people Have read the Destroyer.net information. It's slanted to Star Wars and against Trek. There is nothing Objective about the analysis when you refer to the other side as Federation cultist. I think I stopped reading about there and realized he was taking this far too seriously.
    I am trying to give you some sources, my good man. The source is about...three pages long. It is pretty easy to read. These posts are huge enough as is. We can avoid huge amounts of copy/pasting, can't we, by pointing where it is all ready written?

    Untill you prove otherwise. The phaser beats the anti-fighter turbo laser by 60 times (proven and on screen) and is in competition against the heavier turbo lasers. Where the phaser falls short the Photon and Quantum Torpedo more than make up for. The odds tip in the Federations favor because of more unique and advanced technology. They've been mentioned before and are quite common as weapons in Star Trek.
    Torpedos in ST are held to be 2.5 times better than phasers, no? I fail to see how this is held to be tremendously advantageous, when Star Wars is again showing weapons that are making this look rather pathetic compared.

    /quote]So...whether you accept it or not. Right now it's definitive that the phaser and the other Trek Weapons are far ahead of the most common TL (antifighter) and on par or above with heavy weaponry. For me to change my thinking you will have to layout some new information that is just as clear or find an error in my analysis. Good Luck![/quote]

    Look at my diffuse Borb cube comment.

    The bold is an irrelevant statement.
    Data states that they've destroyed 20% of the Cube.
    This of a vessel constructed with Tritanium. As further proof look back at the image. The crater is as wide as the Enterprise which is some 400 meters wide. My estimate of destroyed material was 240m (spherical) that accounts for some 50% of the volume in the crater. At 240 meters that still equals a whole Miranda Class star ship in Trek and then some which is 233 meters long. All this in one burst of phasers at maximum
    20 percent of a largely empty space cube is not that impressive.

    "I destroyed 20 percent of the cork wood structure!"

    Compared to

    "I destroyed 20 percent of the tungsten structure!"

    Not to mention in the episode the Ninth Degree Geordi can get the phasers even "hotter". And to PROVE that we've seen this happen before on a ship of the same size...The enterprise D destroyed the USS Lantree, a Miranda class starship (TNG Unnatural Selection) with a single torpedo strike. The ship was completely vaporized with no debreis at all.) We know trek and Star Wars are more equals than Wong proposes. This argument proves his Trek estimates wrong on every level.
    Indeed. The ship is blown to smitherines, ala the Deathstar blown up. The torpedo is quite powerful in this case. Of course, this ship was unarmoured and unshielded, no? Plus you hvae the core involved in the explosion...Soooo, colour me slightly less impressed than I would be.

    Also, I do not see why you want me to go and do my own research when the research is there. When there are pieces where research is needed, I'll do it. I'll go and review scenes, tapes, et cetera. Whatever. But when I can find reliable information from an engineer (I am a philosopher not a scientist) why should I not accept it?

  10. #12630
    Plutarch (Mickey's Dog)
    Posts
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    Flectarn:

    Again, those quotes you reference are proven hyperbole by later evidence of these things later going down. The Federation is apparently entirely ignorant of the technology they use, or DS9 has inferior technology to a hundred years prior.

  11. #12631
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince_James View Post
    Flectarn:

    On the Die is Cast:

    http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_..._%28episode%29

    As the Cardassian-Romulan fleet fires on the Founders' homeworld, they are initially pleased with the damage they are doing to the planet, but Garak quickly discerns that the Founders are using an automated transponder to send back false life sensor readings from the planet. Suddenly, 150 Jem'Hadar ships emerge from the Omarion Nebula and engage the fleet. The Battle of the Omarion Nebula begins and the Jem'Hadar begin to annihilate the fleet. This engagement is later compared by Admiral Toddman to the Battle of Wolf 359.

    Methinks that, once again, Star Trek is over estimating its own power. As evidenced later when the Dominion Fleet of Jem'Hedar and Breen ships unleashes its full power against Cardassia Prime and kills less than a billion Cardassians and only manages to lay to waste the major cities. No crust melting. No "continents to glass" (a phrase used quite litterally by Canderous the Mandalorian in 5,000 BBY). Nothing.

    The Romulan Fleet's incapacity to stop the Dominion is more evidence of the fact that they are speaking out of their asses on their own military effectiveness. They were bamboozled by the Dominion, who then went to summarily crush the Romulan interlopers.

    DS9, by the way, kicks ass. Lots of violence.
    Trek doesn't attempt to turn the planet to glass... their ultimate goal was to wipe out an ENEMY, not a PLANET.

    God, are you daft or what?

    And the Dominion were able to rip thru the shields of the Romulan ships like they weren't there... as Rommie ships rely more on SHIELDs than ARMOR... ya know?

  12. #12632
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince_James View Post
    Saguist:



    When Star Trek produces one billion Genesis Devices, call me.

    Easy - Replicators... duh? The ONLY special thing there is PROTOMATTER

    See the image I provided. One ISD. Not a fleet of ships.

    Uhm, one we can see... could you SEE THE ENTIRE PLANETARY ORBIT AT MAX RANGE OF THE ISD's? No! For all we know there were FOUR THOUSAND more behind the camera!

    Why would it be anymore dangerous than using a proven faulty cloaking device?

    Because it was a case of Option A - We die for sure. Option B - We MIGHT survive... ya know, not a hard choice.

    Where did the Enterprise blow up any asteroids with its phasers so utterly?

    The Enterprise didn't... Voyager (a much, MUCH smaller and less powerful ship) did...

    Slave 1 is not a "fighter"? Only. Gunship? Extremely light freighter? Contrast its size and armament with a standard fighter. The distinguishing factors are null.

    It's a GunFrigate... if you wish to say Slave1 is a fighter, then what is an X-wing?

    Again: No one is claiming that fighters blow up asteroids in Star Wars the size of the asteroids in that belt. Enormous ones with fucking space worms inside several. These are fucking planetoids like Ceres. No fighter is going to blow that shit up and I freely admit it. Tie and X-wing fighters do not normally come equipped with stuff to blow that up. However, in AOTC, we see HUGE asteroids blown up by the SLave 1, with appropriate weapons for the task. Tremendous, hulking asteroids. Not on par with space-worm asteroids, but certain hundreds of metres large - more than skyscrapers worth of rock and iron.

    We see asteroids about three times the size of Slave 1 blown up... considering Slave 1 is, what, 20 meters tall? A 60 meter asteroid being destroyed is nothing special at all...

    Actually, Star Wars weapons do not follow one method. Star Wars has:

    Shells
    Missiles/Torpedos
    Blasters
    Ion beams
    Disruptor Beams
    Turbolasers
    Sonic Waves
    Ambigious

    And yet, in the movies, we only see half of those... hmm... wonder why!

    Penetrative ability is a feature of weapons designed with penetration in mind. A tank shell not calibrated to penetration is not going to penetrate anything. This is why bunkers are effective against anything but bunker buster weapons.

    It doesn't mater... a modern day tank shell WILL leave a small crater... that Droid Tank shell did NOTHIGN at all!

    Okay, then if we can't reference real science, then here's my invincible argument.

    Star Wars kicks ass.
    That which kicks ass always wins
    Therefore, Star Wars wins.

    Chuck Norris kicks more ass... between the primary actors, Star Trek has more notable people than Star Wars does in all it's movies! Not to mention that Star Trek has the ability to really happen.

    Please. You know full well that this entire debate falls apart if we can't use science to help us calculate power.



    The astronomical claim comes from the real power of an ISD conducting a planet-melting BZD. This is dependent on laws of science which would govern the type of power necessary to melt a planet that significantly.

    Or a very small planetoid... or the fact that the EU has NO REAL SCIENTIFIC BACKGROUND AT ALL... duh?

    Moreover, I don't concede that the ISD's light turbolaser cannons were weaker than the Enterprise. I point to the fact that your object in question has very low density. Borg Cubes are mostly empty space. This is seen time and time again when we see the insides of these mechanical nightmares. An ISD is attacking a solid metal and rock asteroid with light guns for basically target practice and obliterating them. The Enterprise is trying all it can to destroy the Borg Cube and can only cut through some extremely diffused stuff.

    Borg Cube ARMOR is not low density... while the CREW COMPARTMENTS may be empty space... hell, you want empy space? DEATH FUCKING STAR. Those platforms they had to jump across how many times? With seemingly bottomless pits? Yeah, I'd call that hollow then.

    Colour me unimpressed by the power of the main weapon compared to the light weapons of the ISD. A main weapon, which as you well know, can only be fired in one beam at once...
    A Phaser Array can be fired in over 700 beams at once... each emitter segment can fire a separate beam! This has been SHOWN over and over for fucks sake!

  13. #12633
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince_James View Post
    Kittamaru:



    Then quite demonstratedly wrong. Planetary bombardment in later series does not result in anything near this. The crew of the Enterprise either has technology far in away more advanced than the crews in DS9, or they....well, they are completely ignorant of what they can and cannot do.

    Here's the thing... you're comparing Federation ships to Cardassian and Romulan ships... and remember, they OBLITERATED 30 % of the crust in ONE SHOT. Considering the average Cardassian ship is weaker than their Romulan counterparts... and the fact that they were only aiming in segments (did you notice they were concentrating fire in a specific area?)

    Pardon, it was the Constellation.

    Okay, so...secondary power then rig it to explode.

    Okay, how about we send in a Tie FIghter with a seismic charge inside it? Kaboomies. Problem solved.

    Again - TIE Fighter wouldn't make it past the dampening field... the Constellation went in without impulse power (it, literally, drifted in) and the Seismic Charge wouldnt' be enough... Im' talking a full blown core overload. The imploding impulse engines resulted in a mass matter/antimatter explosion.



    I don't know who you are tlaking to, but Hyperspace Gates are not held to be superior whatsoever in EU sources. They are relics of past intergalactic empires who had inferior technology by the time of the Empire. Some super weapons fo past epochs have at times been seen as great. Like the Starforge during KOTOR's time period. But the Hyper Gates? Laughable means of transport!

    Not from what your precious WIKI says!

    Moreover, your Voth transwarp capabilities? Very slow. They aren't able to reach the Alpha Quadrant in hours.

    Uhm... the VOTH were able to cross galaxies in an INSTANT... we're talking near-instantaneous travel! As in, faster than Warp 10, and Warp 10 is INFINITE speed

    Place the Millennium falcon in the deepest part of the Gamma or Delta or Beta quadrant. Give Han Solo the order to get himself to Earth. Within two weeks, account for navigation, he'd be there. If he knew a good route, it would take under a day.

    No, he wouldn't. He'd be destroyed rather rapidly given the calculations you have YET to refute...

    Also, to note: The Aing-Ti monks appear sponteneously wherever they want to with their ships. They blink through space.

    The Q can appear wherever they want... OR they can make "wherever they want" appear where THEY are! Or, they could make an alternate universe and make the two places the same point in space... or a multitude of other things the Aing-Ti could never dream of. Oh, and the Q don't need ships of any kind... or they can randomly make ships... or any other number of ideas

    The one speed which does baffle the mind in ST? The Traveller warping them out of the universe past galaxies in seconds. Where "thought and reality intersect" or some shit.



    There are several artifacts in SW that permit time travel. Suffice it to say, they are not widely used - just like in ST. Moreover, if ST can use time travel to save themselves, why didn't they do it against the Klingons? Or Cardassians? or Dominion? Or Borg?

    Three Words - Temporal Prime Directive. If the Federation is going to survive, then the future federation will not intervene. If they were going to loose, the Future Federation brings back technology to the current time and obliterates the threat... OR they go back in time and stop the incursion... OR they go back further in time and stop the invading species from ever existing! They dont' intervene where they dont' have too...

    Here's an idea: Time travel 100,000 years back. Attack the Borg homeworld. Eviscerate it.

    But no? That doesn't happen. There's a good reason: It cannot be done. Time travel in ST is extremely limited in its effects.

    Negative - it's not done because the discovery and attacks of the borg helped shape the Federation, and thus the Future Federation. Stopping the Borg Incursions would have untold effects on the timeline... however, Voyager has encountered ships from the 29th century... we're talking a 5 CENTURY jump... and that's routine.

    You do realize we are dealing with humans, not robots? When there are cases of underestimation, it is a human flaw. But...not all battles are matters of underestimation on any side. Any objective reading of the movies would not pretend to show that every battle was won "because one side was too confident!"

    Uh, Grand Moff Tarkin anyone? Vader anyone? Palpatine anyone?

    I'd also like to point out the insufferable arrogance and unctuousness of the Federation but that is irrelevant.

    arrogance and what...? The Federation has a set of Laws, the Prime Directive, that it follows... Negotiation before weapons free... and even when they go weapons free, they try to disable rather than destroy when they can. Unlike the Empire "OBEY OR WE BLOW UP YOUR PLANET!" NO wonder everyone hated them...

    Q can't erase the universe. He has never even erased a galaxy. The worse he did was destroy a space empire by supernovaing a sun. Sorry, but the Ang-Ti can pull shit like this, too.

    The Q can do far more than they have... but if you'd listen to the damn episodes, you'd know the Continuum has RULES... generally, Q's galavanting and pissing people off is viewed as a BAD THING by the Conitnuum... they let Q keep messing with the Humans because Q is training humanity... testing them... teaching them. Helping them prepare. Haven't you figured that out yet?

    The entire idea of the warp drive is that space is essentially acting as a "wave" which the ship rides. This is how they avoid time dilation, inertia, and breaking C. The ships are not "accelerating" to warp. They are engaging warp - which sends them hurtling on a warp wake. This is why the galaxy was experiencing severe problems when it was found that areas of space were becoming unstable from the heavy warping and thus the mandatory speed limits placed on ships until it was figured out what caused it.

    Uh, no. They most certainly accelerate to Warp... just as you accelerate to hyperspace... but why not. Fine. Our Warp Drive moves the ENTIRE UNIVERSE around us... good. Now we'll use a confined warp shell to tear your planets, ships, and anything else we come across into pieces by "warping" part of the ship...

    Dude, it takes about a day to go from the extreme Outer Rim to the Galactic Core.

    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...opulsion2.html

    The speed is millions of times C. Star Wars is so fast as to make intergalactic travel trivial. This is why we don't talk about quadrants in Star Wars which are absolute boundary points which take decades to cross. Rather, we talk about rims which are political zones -easily bypassable since ancient times-.

    No, it isn't. Prove to me that Wong's estimate of the galaxy's size is correct. As you said - he made a trip BETWEEN STARSYSTEMS on sublight drive... eg, at LESS than C...

    By 25,000 years BBY, humans had gone from Coruscant (outside the galactic core) to Ossus in the Outer Rim. This was before hyperdrive.



    Star Wars ships can travel just as fast, as evidenced in ESB. That there are times when it is difficult to hit hundreds of small moving targets is fairly natural, considering........that is how it tends to be.

    Not at all... Voyager can lock transporters (which do much, much more than a simple turbolaser bolt) onto a missile warhead doing warp 9.9 and BEAM THE FUCKER OUT without setting off the auto destruct.

    also, the "small craft" which you speak of? Not particularly small. The Defiant is huge compared to a fighter. It also has a phaser system which seems to be the only in existence that fires quick bolts instead of one long beam.

    The Pulse Phaser is not unique, just a bit new. All Defiant classes have them, as do the Venture class starships.


    Dude, I corrected myself. It was an error. Jesus Christ, calm down. Take a fucking sedative man.

    Han Solo, without hyperdrive, navigated the Falcon several dozen lightyears to Bespin. Star Wars ships are accordingly capable of FTL travel without hyperspace.

    So then what is han's secondary FTL drive? And why didn't he use it when his HyperDrive was sabotaged in ANH? Answer- he couldn't! It didn't EXIST!



    Subspace is an antique technology in Star Wars. It was used in the time of Xim the Despot. You'd thrownig spears at M1 Tank here.

    Uh huh... again with Wong's BS... I don't even click those links anymore since he had redirects from Darkstars website go to a porno website that installed viruses... make your own facts, not relying on someone that's been proven wrong over and over again

    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...s/Sensor2.html



    Those battles were this:

    Enterprise (or other ship) flees from the other ship. Other ship pursues.

    The only large scale battle we've ever seen did not include such tactics.



    Okay, bring a single dyson sphere to bear against the Empire of billions of planets. See how that works out for you, champ.

    Heh, who said single? If you can bring back old tech, so can we. Thus, we can produce hundreds of them

    You also forget that the Deathstar? Is a moon. And your tractor beams are not going to rip apart a heavily armoured, shielded, and defended battle station. Try those other weapons - they have shown a track record of failure. The Deathstar II was extremely heavily shielded while still under construction. When created, it would have been utterly impossible to defeat by a ny Star Wars power at the time, and would have made the Federation, Borg, et cetera, wet their pants, when it was taking pot shots at planets and blowing them to smitherines without hope of retaliation.

    Yes, they would. They would destabilize the molecular make up of the DS and rip it to shreads... the same thing happend to a fucking MOON which was FAR MORE DENSE than the DS... cause, you know, the DS is hollow and has crew spaces and such...

    Oh, and the DS wouldn't be able to overcome the planetary shields of any Federation or other Star Trek planets Then again, a Peregrine fighter could do the same thing as Luke's X-wing, but it'd be immune to the LTL batteries so it could take it's sweet time...


    Why would an ISD start blowing up an entire asteroid field as it is pursuing the Rebels? Also, you do realize that asteroid fields are several million individual asteroids? Blowing it up en masse is infeasible. One has to attack it piecemeal.

    Oh? So what about seismic charges? Or Proximity Burst proton torpedoes? or Concussion missiles? The firepower numbers you are stating would create a shockwave able to detonate MOST of the large asteroids in a wide radius.

    The movies never have a situation in which an ISD is situated outside of a planet, waiting to melt it. Only the EU does - and they do very easily and effectively. Tarkin Doctrine.

    Only one problem - an ISD is unable to penetrate the planetary shields of a planet, much less slag the crust. As we have proven the power output of Wars shields to be pathetic at best... yeah. Your ISD can barely TICKLE the surface of the planet!



    You do realize that shielding is on par with the technologies the Empire has, yes?

    Of course it can't blow through a planetary shield if the shield matches the power the Empire has.


    Yet an asteroid belt is able to overwhelm the shields...? I think not. Something isnt' adding up here mate, and your numbers, being pulled from EU, are having a hard time defeating ROCKS crashing into your ships from the MOVIES.


    Clearing a path is not vulnerable. But why would they just take asteroids slamming into them? That's ridiculous.



    If you want to claim seismic charges would be ineffectual against shields, go ahead. But if this shit hits your ship, it is going to do some damage - as evidenced by the wreckage it does on other things.

    Then TriCobalt devices would obliterate even a 14km long Executor as shown by the fact that two were able to vaporize the Caretaker Array

    When you remember, we can talk about that ep.

    As to hand phasers. Okay. They can vapourize someone. On a low setting, a simple handgun blaster ignited all the internal organs of General Grievous.

    Uh huh, as I recall, he didn't change the setting on the blaster...

    Also, when phasers are used in rifles, the effect seems to be no better then the average blaster pistol.

    Uh huh... remember, a phaser rifle is designed with a purpose. It can kill everythign within a 45* cone in front of it, or can stun a single person, or vaporize a hundred cubic inches of solid iron...

    Again: It is not a penetrative weapon. Why are you expecting there to be some damage when it is clearly not geared towards such?

    BECAUSE THAT IS HOW IT WORKS! Some of the damned explosive charge (where it IMPACTED THE GROUND) should have formed a crater! As it didn't, it's less powerful than a MODERN DAY HEAT ROUND that, when it hits the ground, DOES form a crater!

    What you are saying is that Star Wars ground targets are "soft" targets, and have NO armor and NO shields of any kind!


    yes there is. That's what physics is for.



    You're still not addressing the fact that the "massive gaping hole" was mostly there before it was blown apart. I am not saying the phasers were completely ineffectual at melting and attacking the armour of the Cube. But the Cube is a diffuse ship.

    Why, oh WHY would you think their ARMOR would be as porous as the CREW SPACES of the ship? That's like saying a Submarines hull is porous just because it has a huge open space inside of it!

    So we're supposed to assume there is an entire fleet the comic isn't showing?

    LOL.

    That's pretty ridiculous, man!

    No more than saying a single ISD can slag a planet, yet can't protect itself from an asteroid field...

    Save when it came time to do so? It failed.

    Cardassia Prime. QED.

    Cardassia Prime showed a higher damage-per-meter output than an ISD could ever hope for... remember, a Rommie Warbird is what, 1/20th the size of an ISD? Prolly more aroudn 1/100th the size? And 30 ships of approxamate power were able to obliterate 30% of the crust? Even IF the ISD could do a BDZ, if we take an approx equal amount of "mass" of Warbirds, or say Sovereigns for good measure, and have them do a BDZ, there would be little left of the MANTEL of the planet...
    I will not let this discussion drop my IQ by listening to the rantings of a madman...
    I will not let this discussion drop my IQ by listening to the rantings of a madman...
    I will not let this discussion drop my IQ by listening to the rantings of a madman...
    I will not let this discussion drop my IQ by listening to the rantings of a madman...
    I will not let this discussion drop my IQ by listening to the rantings of a madman...
    I will not let this discussion drop my IQ by listening to the rantings of a madman...
    I will not let this discussion drop my IQ by listening to the rantings of a madman...
    I will not let this discussion drop my IQ by listening to the rantings of a madman...
    I will not let this discussion drop my IQ by listening to the rantings of a madman...
    I will not let this discussion drop my IQ by listening to the rantings of a madman...

  14. #12634
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    7,615
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince_James View Post
    Saguist:

    blah blah blah
    Fine, even IF the cube is 30% hollow... it's base material is 20x the strength of DIAMOND.

    What's more impressive?

    I vaporized 100% of a diamond that was 30% air

    OR

    I vaporized 1% of an iron billet

    Take your pick...

  15. #12635
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
    Posts
    1,265
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince_James View Post
    A single Galaxy class claims it can vapourize an atmosphere. An entire fleet in DS9 cannot accomplish that. That is what is being rejected.
    It is possible that they weren't trying to wipe the entire atmosphere off the planet.

    A photon torpedo does not betray, at any time, 25 isotons of power. Furthermore, many photon torpedos were launched at the Founders Planet and Cardassia Prime. None blew the planet apart.
    Once again, lower yield torpedoes.

    Okay. Spend a few hundred years linking them.
    One does not need to like them, they can be projected anywhere without and end conduit ever being constructed. And yes, faster than hyperspace.

    Check a few of my prior posts. I gave the links there.
    What? The SW wiki? That states that a Turbo Laser is a scaled version of a laser canon. ST ships are impervious to lasers!

    As evidenced by the physical manhandling of the Borg Drones by Data, the Bords do not prevent kinetic attacks.
    That doesn't mean they cannot prevent projectiles from attacking them.

    The Aing-Ti philosophy usually keeps them away from interfering, unlike some Q. That being said, if the Q were starting to mess with things, the Aing-Ti can be presumed to act and fuck with the Q.
    Have you seen how vast the Q are? They know EVERYTHING. Henceforth they cannot be defeated.

    We have seen a few advance against one another at ramming speed.

    Generally speaking, it is the fighters which are moving in SW battles with high manueverability. The capital ships do not use tactics where one weapon is brought to bear against eachother. But hundreds of batteries...
    We are talking about ISDs.

    Sorry, those fighters would be pick off instantaniously with multiple low power phaser shots.

    More like WWII carrier battlegroup tactics.
    Perhaps, but using broadside tactics against an enemy that can snipe you from a long distance away is not a very good tactic.

    It's science fiction. Science fiction. Star Trek doesn't even know what a baryon is. So please, do not tell me which is worse...
    Hey, I didn't write it, I'll try to find the book and get it.

    Don't you remember when Cardassia was targetted after they betrayed the Dominion? 150,000,000 Cardassians were killed.
    That's my POINT, they didn't destroy Cardassia Prime because that's WHERE the dominion base of operations was! You know, the founder and Weyoun?

  16. #12636
    Plutarch (Mickey's Dog)
    Posts
    9,214
    Kittamaru:

    Easy - Replicators... duh? The ONLY special thing there is PROTOMATTER
    Replicators don't make Genesis Devices, my good man. They don't make starships, either. Or a host of other things. Replicators make hot coffee.

    Uhm, one we can see... could you SEE THE ENTIRE PLANETARY ORBIT AT MAX RANGE OF THE ISD's? No! For all we know there were FOUR THOUSAND more behind the camera!
    The picture shows one. There is only one referenced. The canonical evidence is one ISD slagging an entire planet on its own. Finito.

    Because it was a case of Option A - We die for sure. Option B - We MIGHT survive... ya know, not a hard choice.
    Yet you just said it could cut through the asteroid. BS they'd "die for sure" from that.

    The Enterprise didn't... Voyager (a much, MUCH smaller and less powerful ship) did...
    SOURCE. Give it or shut up.

    It's a GunFrigate... if you wish to say Slave1 is a fighter, then what is an X-wing?
    Okay. Gun frigate. Enjoy your minor semantical victory.

    We see asteroids about three times the size of Slave 1 blown up... considering Slave 1 is, what, 20 meters tall? A 60 meter asteroid being destroyed is nothing special at all...
    Significantly larger than three times. The asteroids are dwarfing it.


    And yet, in the movies, we only see half of those... hmm... wonder why!
    Shells - Ep 3 (you actually see the shells)
    Missiles/Torpedos Ep 1-6
    Blasters Ep 1-6
    Ion beams Ep 5 and 6
    Disruptor Beams Ep 6 (Boba Fett uses a handheld disruptor rifle)
    Turbolasers - Ep 1-6
    Sonic Waves - Ep 2-3
    Ambigious - Ep 2-3

    The words "broadsided" come to mind.

    It doesn't mater... a modern day tank shell WILL leave a small crater... that Droid Tank shell did NOTHIGN at all!
    Agian, it isn't geared towards penetration.

    Or a very small planetoid... or the fact that the EU has NO REAL SCIENTIFIC BACKGROUND AT ALL... duh?
    Yes, science abounds in Star Trek. "Let's clean the baryons on the ship!" "Oh, you mean all the atoms?" "Why yes, yes I do....CoughIshouldhavelookedupwhatbaryonmeanscough ".

    The EU is canonical according to Star Wars. If you don't like it, tough shit.

    Borg Cube ARMOR is not low density... while the CREW COMPARTMENTS may be empty space... hell, you want empy space? DEATH FUCKING STAR. Those platforms they had to jump across how many times? With seemingly bottomless pits? Yeah, I'd call that hollow then.
    You claim a huge gash is made. The majority of that gash is open air. The phasers attack the rest of it.

    The Death Star has metres upon metres of armour and tremendous amounts of internal space kept up by struts, et cetera. The "endless pit"? It's the reactor pit. It's only about a hundred feet tall.

    A Phaser Array can be fired in over 700 beams at once... each emitter segment can fire a separate beam! This has been SHOWN over and over for fucks sake!
    Fucking source that shit. One canonical scene where a single ship fires 700 beams at once in ST. Please. I beg of you.

    Here's the thing... you're comparing Federation ships to Cardassian and Romulan ships... and remember, they OBLITERATED 30 % of the crust in ONE SHOT. Considering the average Cardassian ship is weaker than their Romulan counterparts... and the fact that they were only aiming in segments (did you notice they were concentrating fire in a specific area?)
    The Founders were bugging with their sensors. The crusts showed no such damage.

    Again - TIE Fighter wouldn't make it past the dampening field... the Constellation went in without impulse power (it, literally, drifted in) and the Seismic Charge wouldnt' be enough... Im' talking a full blown core overload. The imploding impulse engines resulted in a mass matter/antimatter explosion.
    Here's how the Empire does it: Get up to a nice speed, cut engines. Wait. Remote detonate the seismic charge. Blamo. Easy peasy Japanesey.

    Not from what your precious WIKI says!
    My precious wiki says nothing about the gates being good technology. LOL. Dude. They are antiquated as fuck. They come from antique civilizations. They offer nothing.

    Uhm... the VOTH were able to cross galaxies in an INSTANT... we're talking near-instantaneous travel! As in, faster than Warp 10, and Warp 10 is INFINITE speed
    Reference.

    The Voth never appeared in the Alpha or Beta Quadrants. They were just as stuck in the Delt a as Voyager was.

    And Warp 10 is not infinite speed.

    No, he wouldn't. He'd be destroyed rather rapidly given the calculations you have YET to refute...
    Rather rapidly? How? By easily meandering through space at 20 million times C? Faster than anything else in ST? Yeah. That'd "destroy him". Right.

    The Q can appear wherever they want... OR they can make "wherever they want" appear where THEY are! Or, they could make an alternate universe and make the two places the same point in space... or a multitude of other things the Aing-Ti could never dream of. Oh, and the Q don't need ships of any kind... or they can randomly make ships... or any other number of ideas
    So can the Aing-Ti. The Q are not even remotely more powerful or superior to the Aing-Ti.

    Also, the Q use technology, dumbie. The Voygaer crew uses Q technology at one point.

    Three Words - Temporal Prime Directive. If the Federation is going to survive, then the future federation will not intervene. If they were going to loose, the Future Federation brings back technology to the current time and obliterates the threat... OR they go back in time and stop the incursion... OR they go back further in time and stop the invading species from ever existing! They dont' intervene where they dont' have too...
    Bullshit. Those situations have been end-game and they did not do any shit like this. Repeatedly they were at the verge of collapse and didn'te ven consider time travel missions

    Negative - it's not done because the discovery and attacks of the borg helped shape the Federation, and thus the Future Federation. Stopping the Borg Incursions would have untold effects on the timeline... however, Voyager has encountered ships from the 29th century... we're talking a 5 CENTURY jump... and that's routine.
    That was a change in the timeline.

    Moreover, the 5 century jump from the future is not really that impressive. Especially, again, considering temporal wars show dramatic limitations on what can be done in time travel...

    Uh, Grand Moff Tarkin anyone? Vader anyone? Palpatine anyone?
    Vader underestimates who? He destroys Echo Base. Fucks the Rebels at Bespin. He captures the Princess and then uses her as bait to fine Yavin.

    Tarkin helped keep the Empire at its peak power for 20 years. His only mistake was not realizing that there was one tiny design flaw on the Death Star.

    Palpatine lost because his Apprentice, the Chosen One, killed him.

    The Q can do far more than they have... but if you'd listen to the damn episodes, you'd know the Continuum has RULES... generally, Q's galavanting and pissing people off is viewed as a BAD THING by the Conitnuum... they let Q keep messing with the Humans because Q is training humanity... testing them... teaching them. Helping them prepare. Haven't you figured that out yet?
    Yes, the Continuum has "Rules". Therefore, they won't violate those "rules" for Star Wars, now will they?

    Uh, no. They most certainly accelerate to Warp... just as you accelerate to hyperspace... but why not. Fine. Our Warp Drive moves the ENTIRE UNIVERSE around us... good. Now we'll use a confined warp shell to tear your planets, ships, and anything else we come across into pieces by "warping" part of the ship...
    Hyperspace has no acceleration. Hyperspace is dropping into another dimension where the rules of C do not apply. There is no "acceleration" to hyperspace. It's dropping through space into hyperspace. Warp has no "acceleration" either. Space moves, NOT the ship.

    Also, it doesn't move the entire universe. It moves the reference frame.

    There is no technology in ST that allows for offensive usages of warp, by the way.

    No, it isn't. Prove to me that Wong's estimate of the galaxy's size is correct. As you said - he made a trip BETWEEN STARSYSTEMS on sublight drive... eg, at LESS than C...
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Galaxy

    Judging from the maps available, it appeared to be a galaxy of Sb type. According to some sources, the galaxy was 120,000 light years across, or 37,000 Parsecs (a parsec is 3.258 light years) across. A black hole existed at the center of the galaxy.

    No, he was not going "sublight". He was going FTL without hyperspace.

    Not at all... Voyager can lock transporters (which do much, much more than a simple turbolaser bolt) onto a missile warhead doing warp 9.9 and BEAM THE FUCKER OUT without setting off the auto destruct.
    The Empire has sensors that can see through hyperspace, with objects going 20 million times C.

    Your point?

    The Pulse Phaser is not unique, just a bit new. All Defiant classes have them, as do the Venture class starships.
    It was unique for a significant amount of time. Most of the Dominion War. It was also not on the Enterprise E, if I recall Nemesis correctly.

    So then what is han's secondary FTL drive? And why didn't he use it when his HyperDrive was sabotaged in ANH? Answer- he couldn't! It didn't EXIST
    His secondary FTL drive is the same FTL that was used prior to hyperspace, presumably. It might even be a warp drive by another name - warp is slow enough to be ancient. Of course, that is simply a hypothetical. What we do know, is that the movies show the Millennium Falcon using FTL without hyperspace. Ergo, there are slower alternatives to hyperspace.

    Also, you do realize that every fighter and other ship likely has these backup FTL drives, yes? Thus Han Solo escaping at lower-than-hyperspace would be impossible. He could not out run the enemies.

    Uh huh... again with Wong's BS... I don't even click those links anymore since he had redirects from Darkstars website go to a porno website that installed viruses... make your own facts, not relying on someone that's been proven wrong over and over again
    What the fuck? LOL

    Also, Wong has never been proven wrong. Dude, the guy has a BS in engineering and has provided the single greatest scientific analysis of Star Wars ever. Puhlease. Do not tell mle that he is "refuted".

    It also has a quote from a canonical EU novel. Here it is:

    The ludicrous nature of the Federation cultists' sensor claims is most apparent when one realized that their most advanced sensor technology is subspace-based (ref. TM). However, not only do we possess subspace technology (which we still use for inexpensive short-range communications gear) but subspace sensors were used in our galaxy during the time of Xim the Despot, before the dawn of the Old Republic 25,000 years ago, as described in Han Solo and the Lost Legacy:

    "mytag crystals were used in old subspace common and detection gear; you needed lots and lots of them for any spacefleet or planetary defenses."

    Therefore, Federation sensor technology is at least 25,000 years behind our own.

    Good luck using stoneage tech again, bucko.

    Heh, who said single? If you can bring back old tech, so can we. Thus, we can produce hundreds of them
    You do realize that the Fed cannot make the Dyson Sphere, right? It is vastly beyond the capacity of the Fed.

    So yeah, good luck with that, champ.

    Oh, and you have to build the Dyson Sphere around the sun in question. Good luck trying to do that while Super Star Destroyers wreck you into oblivion.

    Yes, they would. They would destabilize the molecular make up of the DS and rip it to shreads... the same thing happend to a fucking MOON which was FAR MORE DENSE than the DS... cause, you know, the DS is hollow and has crew spaces and such...
    Yes, that will work on a shielded, armoured battle station, with counter measures a plenty - including far more powerful tractor beams and tens of thousands of gun batteries.

    Oh, and the DS wouldn't be able to overcome the planetary shields of any Federation or other Star Trek planets Then again, a Peregrine fighter could do the same thing as Luke's X-wing, but it'd be immune to the LTL batteries so it could take it's sweet time...
    It wouldn't be immune whatsoever to TL batteries. It would be blown to smitherines with ease.

    Also, the Deathstar did overcome a planetary shield: Alderaan's. It is shown in the movie.

    An -ISD- might not be able to overcome a planetary shield. A Deathstar can do any with ease.

    Oh? So what about seismic charges? Or Proximity Burst proton torpedoes? or Concussion missiles? The firepower numbers you are stating would create a shockwave able to detonate MOST of the large asteroids in a wide radius
    Why would they need to blow up so many? Only those that are in the way. Plus, why would they waste their ammunition on something not needed?

    Only one problem - an ISD is unable to penetrate the planetary shields of a planet, much less slag the crust. As we have proven the power output of Wars shields to be pathetic at best... yeah. Your ISD can barely TICKLE the surface of the planet!
    The power output of Star Wars shields is far superior to Star Trek. Star Wars shields are capable of sustaining much higher degrees of fire power and solar radiation.

    Planetary shields matching the power of an ISD of course cannot be penetrated. Try matching the power of an ISD! You won't be able to.

    Yet an asteroid belt is able to overwhelm the shields...? I think not. Something isnt' adding up here mate, and your numbers, being pulled from EU, are having a hard time defeating ROCKS crashing into your ships from the MOVIES.
    Yes, huge asteroids can over whelm the shields when it is passing at dangerous speeds through an asteroid field.

    A huge rock is going to hurt anything it goes into. Do you know the fucking impact of the asteroid that blew up the dinosaurs? That's what we're talking about here.

    Then TriCobalt devices would obliterate even a 14km long Executor as shown by the fact that two were able to vaporize the Caretaker Array
    Yes, sure, if you place it in the right place inside it.

    Uh huh, as I recall, he didn't change the setting on the blaster...
    Blasters come in various settings. It wasn't fired at any high level. He shot once and the guy's internal organs were set aflame. Boom. There goes Grieveous. Obi Wan fired a few more shots for good measure.

    Uh huh... remember, a phaser rifle is designed with a purpose. It can kill everythign within a 45* cone in front of it, or can stun a single person, or vaporize a hundred cubic inches of solid iron...
    Yeah, that is why Worf used those powers, right? Oh wait. He didn't! Nor did any other federation marine do so.

    BECAUSE THAT IS HOW IT WORKS! Some of the damned explosive charge (where it IMPACTED THE GROUND) should have formed a crater! As it didn't, it's less powerful than a MODERN DAY HEAT ROUND that, when it hits the ground, DOES form a crater!
    Not at all, it works on different principles. And it once again was not made for ground penetration.

    What you are saying is that Star Wars ground targets are "soft" targets, and have NO armor and NO shields of any kind!
    No I am not. LMAO When the fuck did I say that? Star Wars ground targets are heavily armoured and often shielded. See: AT AT.

    Why, oh WHY would you think their ARMOR would be as porous as the CREW SPACES of the ship? That's like saying a Submarines hull is porous just because it has a huge open space inside of it!
    Look at the outside of the cube. It is mostly open to space.

    Cardassia Prime showed a higher damage-per-meter output than an ISD could ever hope for... remember, a Rommie Warbird is what, 1/20th the size of an ISD? Prolly more aroudn 1/100th the size? And 30 ships of approxamate power were able to obliterate 30% of the crust? Even IF the ISD could do a BDZ, if we take an approx equal amount of "mass" of Warbirds, or say Sovereigns for good measure, and have them do a BDZ, there would be little left of the MANTEL of the planet...
    The entire fleet of the Jem'Hedar and Breen were incapable of killing more than a billion Cardassians and showed no crust damage whatsoever to Cardassia Prime. Only wrecked cities, which looked better than if they were hydrogen bombed.

    In 5000 BY, an entire city planet (Taris) was reduced to slag by the Leviathan, killing trillions and forcing an Ithorian relief project to completely terraform the planet several years later again.

    Fine, even IF the cube is 30% hollow... it's base material is 20x the strength of DIAMOND.
    Diamond is hard. Not strong. Titanium is a lot stronger than diamond. Diamond is simply hard.

    Colour me unimpressed by a few struts of this metal compared to the HUGE OPEN SPACES.

  17. #12637
    Plutarch (Mickey's Dog)
    Posts
    9,214
    USS Athens:

    It is possible that they weren't trying to wipe the entire atmosphere off the planet.
    The orders were to wipe out Cardassia.

    Once again, lower yield torpedoes.
    So we are expected to believe that the federation keeps planet killers that they won't use? Or the romulans? Or Klingons? Or Cardies? Especially when the Romulans had a clear shot at the Founder home world?

    One does not need to like them, they can be projected anywhere without and end conduit ever being constructed. And yes, faster than hyperspace.
    No they can't, dude. That is why the Borg can't reach the Alpha Quadrant.

    What? The SW wiki? That states that a Turbo Laser is a scaled version of a laser canon. ST ships are impervious to lasers!
    They are impervious to weak laser beams, yes. Obviouslyt hey would be. So are Star Wars ships.

    Also, turbolasers aren't lasers. As shown through on screen evidence routinely. And I was linking to stardestroyer.net

    That doesn't mean they cannot prevent projectiles from attacking them.
    A flying fist and a flying bullet work on the same principles, bro.

    Have you seen how vast the Q are? They know EVERYTHING. Henceforth they cannot be defeated.
    The Aing-Ti know everything. What is your point? And the Q know everything now? Q didn't know Picard's answer to his court room.

    Sorry, those fighters would be pick off instantaniously with multiple low power phaser shots.
    Please, try to attack dozens of fast moving targets with "low level phaser shots". Moving at speeds and with manueverability far exceeding anything in ST. I'd love to see it, because Star Trek would fail following those. Especially when the ISD is blasting the piss out of the capital ships while they are at it.

    Perhaps, but using broadside tactics against an enemy that can snipe you from a long distance away is not a very good tactic.
    When were you under the impression that ISDs fight only up close? They engage from quite a great deal aways.

    Moreover, Star Trek ships begin their attack within visual range.

    That's my POINT, they didn't destroy Cardassia Prime because that's WHERE the dominion base of operations was! You know, the founder and Weyoun?
    Dude, Cardassia had -all ready betrayed the Dominion- at this point. The stated orders were "destroy Cardassia". They failed. Miserably.

  18. #12638
    Plutarch (Mickey's Dog)
    Posts
    9,214
    Here's the big difference between ST and SW:

    When ST says they'll blow up a planet, they don't. They in fact seem to have no idea to what extent their weapons have any power whatsoever.

    When SW says they won't blow up your planet, they are lying and blow it up anyway. In spectacular fashion. Just to see you cry.

  19. #12639
    Prince James,

    I'm just going to focus on TDiC for the moment here, Kitt and Saquist can debate everything under the sun with you...

    first of all... the only sensor readings that were being spoofed were the lifesign readings... thats why they didn't change and the status of the planet did.

    second, look at these pictures and tell me with a straigh face there was not damage to the crust.


    //ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x21/dieiscast_431.jpg


    //ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x21/dieiscast_432.jpg


    //ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x21/dieiscast_433.jpg

    The fact that other bombardments do not show the same effect shows a difference in circumstances, but does not nessecarily invalidate the incidenent.

    And lastly what point are you trying to make about the romulans not defeating the Jem Ha'dar in the battle. lets consider that, it was an ambush, the dominion forces had shown considerable effectiveness against romulan forces elsewhere, and the odds were 5 to one against them, there being ~ 30 ships in the rommulan-cardassian fleet, and 150 in the Dominon fleet.

  20. #12640
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
    Posts
    1,265
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince_James View Post
    The orders were to wipe out Cardassia.
    Wipe it of it's population.

    So we are expected to believe that the federation keeps planet killers that they won't use? Or the romulans? Or Klingons? Or Cardies? Especially when the Romulans had a clear shot at the Founder home world?
    The most logical answer is that wasn't the plan.

    And I hope you do realize that the federation would NEVER destroy a planet. They have morals, the empire doesn't. Which proves that the empire is evil. I hope you concur.

    No they can't, dude. That is why the Borg can't reach the Alpha Quadrant.
    Yes they can!!! There are can be exit apertures that don't need any construction to create!

    They are impervious to weak laser beams, yes. Obviously hey would be. So are Star Wars ships.
    No, just lasers. As proven by the Star Wars Wiki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    A Turbolaser is a scaled up version of the laser canon and blaster.
    Also, turbolasers aren't lasers. As shown through on screen evidence routinely. And I was linking to stardestroyer.net
    You know that is a rejected site, mainly because Wong hates ST.

    A flying fist and a flying bullet work on the same principles, bro.
    I know, it might have something to do with what the borg expect... Which is a real problem for them.

    The Aing-Ti know everything. What is your point? And the Q know everything now? Q didn't know Picard's answer to his court room.
    The Q are also intergalactic. You see, the Q don't even talk anymore because everything has been said.

    Please, try to attack dozens of fast moving targets with "low level phaser shots". Moving at speeds and with manueverability far exceeding anything in ST. I'd love to see it, because Star Trek would fail following those. Especially when the ISD is blasting the piss out of the capital ships while they are at it.
    Easy, if you are piloting a craft that is moving faster than a phaser lock you are violating the laws of physics. Who can pilot something that fast in a battle.

    When were you under the impression that ISDs fight only up close? They engage from quite a great deal aways.
    And miss, honestly you must realize that ST ships have extremely longer ranges.

    Moreover, Star Trek ships begin their attack within visual range.
    Perhaps, but they are capable of much longer distances.

    Dude, Cardassia had -all ready betrayed the Dominion- at this point. The stated orders were "destroy Cardassia". They failed. Miserably.
    The statement could have been figurative.
    Last edited by USS Athens; 05-31-08 at 10:16 PM.

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    Replies: 0

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