05-16-08, 07:06 PM #12041
05-16-08, 07:09 PM #12042
2)No, they have hulls that include something that a Trek ship cannot get past: Neutronium.
3) There were so many hitting it so fast they couldn't recharge them dast enough.
05-16-08, 07:13 PM #12043
05-16-08, 07:20 PM #12044
05-16-08, 07:21 PM #12045
05-16-08, 07:25 PM #12046
05-16-08, 07:55 PM #12047
05-16-08, 07:56 PM #12048
ALL TREK vs ALL WARS
What do you NOT understand? The SCENARIO WE PROPOSED IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS ARGUMENT is Trek vs Wars... not SOME of trek vs wars, or the UFP vs Empire... TREK VS WARS. Q FIGHTS. PERIOD.
05-16-08, 07:57 PM #12049
And they were not moving fast in any respect as the ISD was moving rather slowly and the asteroids were CERTAINLY not overtaking the ISD...
05-16-08, 07:58 PM #12050
05-16-08, 07:58 PM #12051
05-16-08, 08:00 PM #12052
Neutronium in Star Wars is NOT the impregnable Star Trek Neutronium.
I can PROVE this quite simply:
Star Trek Neutronium does not exist naturally outside a Neutron Star and, when removed from said neutron Star begins to decay unless there is a SERIOUS gravitational field.
YET HAN SOLO WAS ABLE TO PICK UP A CHUNK OF NEUTRONIUM FROM THE SURFACE OF A FUCKING MOON HE WAS ABLE TO WALK ON.
Tell me, does a MOON a MAN CAN WALK ON have the Gravitational Field of a NEUTRON STAR?
Do you KNOW how DENSE Neutronium in Star Trek is? NO HUMAN could lift it! EVER! Not even a TEASPOON FULL!
Thus, Trek Neutronium is NOT Wars neutronium.
05-16-08, 08:02 PM #12053
1) Doesn't dispute my theory of near light speed rams...
3) So shields are depleted greatly by physical impacts with objects far smaller than the ship? So what about Space Dust... Star Wars ships HAVE NO NAVIGATIONAL DEFLECTOR...
Actually, this MIGHT explain why they never maneuver in Star Wars... Capital ships can't avoid loosing their shields to nano-meteors and micro-meteors...
05-16-08, 08:03 PM #12054
In the meantime, I can prove you WRONG, or should I say, WONG, by stating this:
The USS Defiant can slag an entire planet on it's own... it carries a minimal loadout of Q-torps...
You are trying to say a "measly" 118 megatons could do what the DS Superlaser does? Cool... that means the SuperLaser in Wars is about the same as a Q-torp... this means you are REALLY fucked.
05-16-08, 08:04 PM #12055
05-16-08, 08:12 PM #12056
Read thru these... honestly, please do.
These are very interesting articles that seem to indicate Hyperspace is not THAT much faster than warp speed... Queen Amidala's ship only seems to max out at Warp 6... even giving the falcon a 5x increase, that brings it to roughly Warp 8 (remember folks, Warp is NOT a linear function... it's quasi-exponential)... so Warp 9.98 (Ent-E and Voyager max theoretical top speeds) or warp 9.5 (average ship sustainable top speed) is almost as fast, if not faster, than Hyperdrive...
Scary thought, isn't it. The only REAL technological advantage Star Wars has possibly being only a MINOR advantage, if it even is an advantage.
Seriously read those pages and try to debunk them... I read thru them and found no real flaw with them... those I had thought of, he covered in the continuation sections!
05-16-08, 08:19 PM #12057
"The Venator-class, as a true warship, can feed almost its entire reactor output to its heavy guns when required."
If we divide 3.6E24 watts by 8 guns, and figure a certain amount of inefficiency, we're looking at around 100 teratons per second from each gun at maximum firepower!
Therefore, with the Superlaser hundred thousand times stronger than a Venator's guns, 100,000 TT.
Main phasers: 3.6 GW (5.1 MW per emitter, 200 emitters in the main phaser array, 2 full-sized saucer arrays and 3 smaller roughly half-size arrays on the stardrive section, p.123). Note that phasers appear to have a chain-reaction effect so their raw power output may be deceptively low.
Photon torpedoes: About 64 megatons max theoretical (based on 1.5 kg antimatter payload)
With Quantum torpedoes being twice as powerful as photon torpedoes, 118 MT
The USS Defiant can slag an entire planet on it's own... it carries a minimal load out of Q-torps...
05-16-08, 08:52 PM #12058
05-16-08, 09:02 PM #12059
Massive Wall of text.
Hyperdrive: Our Star Destroyers can easily traverse our galaxy in a matter of a few weeks, with travel speeds of over 1 million times the speed of light. However, hyperdrive does have some limitations; a ship travelling in hyperspace cannot fly through a star, and it can be affected if it passes by high-energy events such as supernovae ("without precise calculations we'd fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that would end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"- Han Solo, ANH).
Some Federation cultists have taken to claiming that Star Wars Imperial ships need months to traverse the galaxy, but it must be noted that Darth Vader summoned bounty hunters from the core worlds (including IG-88 who always worked in the core sectors) to the isolated Outer Rim Hoth system and those bounty hunters arrived, all while the Imperial fleet was still in the asteroid field. To travel from the core sectors to one of the outer rim sectors would be a journey of at least 30,000 light years, and the bounty hunters must have made the trip in two or three days maximum. This works out to a speed of 3.65 million times c. Further evidence for this scale of hyperdrive propulsion speed comes from page 145 of the ROTJ hardcover novelization:
"The vast rebel fleet hung poised in space, ready to strike. It was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star --- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision."
This scene takes place after Skywalker is captured by Vader (in the wee hours of the morning, just before dawn), and the Rebel fleet arrives shortly after Skywalker enters the Emperor's overbridge. This means that the Rebel fleet covers at least 200 light years (hence the term "hundreds") in the approximate time interval required to transport Skywalker from the surface of Endor to the Death Star in orbit. We know from ANH that a typical starship can easily achieve orbit in much less than half an hour, because the Death Star was 30 minutes out of position during General Dodonna's briefing and the X-wing crews had manned and prepped their ships, achieved orbit, and then circumnavigated several hundred thousand kilometres around Yavin to attack the Death Star before it was in position. Therefore, even if we include the time required to load Skywalker aboard the shuttle, land aboard the Death Star, and travel to the Emperor's overbridge, Vader could not have taken longer than 30 minutes to make the trip. This means that the Rebel fleet must have been travelling at speeds of at least 200 light years per half-hour. This works out to 3.5 million c. Here is a quote from Dark Force Rising, pg. 212 hardcover:
"From the labored sound of the engines, [Mara Jade] could guess they were pushing uncomfortably far past a Victory Star Destroyer's normal flank speed of Point Four Five. Possibly even as high as Point Five, which would mean they were covering a hundred twenty-seven light-years per hour."
127 light years per hour works out to roughly 1.2 million c, which is somewhat lower than the estimate based on the events of ROTJ, but it is always possible that Vader dallied around on the surface for a while before taking Luke to meet the Emperor. Some sources seem to indicate much lower hyperdrive speeds, including one quote from Heir to the Empire, pg. 35 hardcover:
"It took the Chimaera nearly five days at its Point Four cruising speed to cover the three hundred fifty light-years between Myrkr and Wayland."
This indicates that .4 hyperdrive is equivalent to a mere 26,000c in this region of space (only 8 times faster than a Federation ship), as opposed to the 1.2 million c speed of .5 hyperdrive factor, which is more than 400 times faster than a Federation ship. It is possible that this indicates an extremely steep exponential increase in speed with hyperdrive factor, but it is more likely that it is merely a region of space in which navigational conditions such as obstacles, space-time distortions, etc. slow down local travel (keep in mind that Federation warp drive is also affected by certain regions of space, as we found in "The Omega Directive" when it was revealed that there was an entire sector of Federation space in which warp travel was impossible). The speed chart from BTM (see below) clearly indicates that the speed of hyperdrive travel varies dramatically depending on where you are going. One final quote comes from the most original source of all:
From Star Wars IV: A New Hope, pg. 118 softcover: "Navigation computer calculates our arrival in Alderaan orbit at oh two hundred."
This indicates that the trip from Tattooine in the Outer Rim to Alderaan in the Galactic Core takes less than one day. Otherwise, Solo would have included a date or a number of days along with the time (if you are going to arrive at two o'clock three days from now, you won't just say that "we will arrive at two o'clock"- you will say "we should arrive around two o'clock on Monday", or "we should arrive Monday afternoon" or "we should arrive in a few days"). A trip from the outer rim to a core system will be at least 30,000 light years (and probably much more- Alderaan might be on the far side of the core), and if it takes less than one day, travel speeds must be in excess of 10 million c. This is from a canon source.
In general, the canon films tend to indicate much higher hyperdrive speeds than the official novels. Travel from Outer Rim systems such as Tattooine, Hoth, and Yavin to core systems like Coruscant and Alderaan takes hours rather than days, as described above. Also, it should also be noted that the hyperdrive-capable X-wing fighters of the Rebel Allliance have no bathroom facilities, thus further indicating that there are strict limits to how long one is expected to spend in transit. The Behind The Magic CD contains a speed chart which appears to agree with most of the official sources as well as the canon ANH film:
We can see that travel times are strongly influenced by location. In the above chart, it can be seen that a typical starship can travel from Coruscant in the Galactic Core to Bespin, Dagobah, Dantooine, Endor, and Tatooine (all located in the Outer Rim, as seen in the galactic map, also from the BTM CD) in times ranging from 19 hours to over 22 days. The reason for this range is that hyperspace routes can force slow travel if they pass through regions of the galaxy with numerous navigational hazards. A starship traveling from Coruscant to Dantooine is traveling at an average speed of more than 18 million times c, while a starship traveling from Coruscant to Tatooine is traveling at an average speed of only 600,000c. The best route for a traveler would therefore be to jump to Dantooine first, and then take the 20-hour trip to Tatooine from there. This would cut the total trip down from more than 22 days to less than 2 days.
The trip from Dantooine to Endor is even more impressive. Endor is on the other side of the galaxy from Dantooine as seen in the galactic map, a distance of more than 100,000 light years. And yet, a direct hyperspace jump between Dantooine and Endor takes only 21 hours. This requires an average speed of more than forty million times c! But the most impressive trip is still Han Solo's trip in ANH, from Tattooine to Alderaan. The BTM speed chart agrees with the estimate of less than 1 day travel time derived from ANH, with a figure of 7 hours. Furthermore, we can see from the BTM map that the distance from Alderaan to Tattooine is closer to 40,000 light years than the conservative 30,000 light year estimate used earlier, and a 40,000 light year trip in 7 hours would require speeds of roughly fifty million times c.
A common misconception is the belief that hyperdrive cannot be initiated in gravity wells. This is actually untrue- although it is not recommended, it is possible to initiate a hyperjump in the gravity well of a planet. The Millenium Falcon actually went to hyperspace inside the atmosphere of a planet to escape Byss in the split-second before the planetary energy shield closed on them (ref. Dark Empire). Again, we stress that this is not recommended for safety reasons, but it is possible.
Specialty hyperdrives can travel even more quickly. The long-range planet-destroying missiles launched by the Galaxy Gun could travel from the galactic Deep Core to anywhere in the outermost frontiers in "a few hours" (ref. SWEGWT), in spite of the severe navigational disturbances in the Deep Core. This requires speeds in excess of 100 million times c!
05-16-08, 09:03 PM #12060
Warp drive uses a matter/antimatter-powered space-time continuum distortion process to drive a ship forward at many times the speed of light. The warp speed table is as follows (taken from the TNG TM and the Star Trek Encyclopedia):
*Snip most of the chart.*
Speed in multiples of c
The TM indicates that the propagation rate of subspace transmissions is "about sixty times faster than the fastest starship, either existing or predicted", and we know that Warp 8 is the highest warp factor that can be maintained for long cruising durations. Therefore, a ship attempting to cross a 120,000 light-year wide galaxy would have to be ready for a 117-year journey, to go from end to end. By dividing the speed of subspace by sixty, we find that the maximum speed of any starship is roughly 3333c. This is consistent with the pilot of Star Trek: Voyager where Captain Janeway said the Voyager would take 75 years to cover the 70,000 light year distance back to the Alpha Quadrant "at maximum warp."
It is noteworthy that in ST5, the Enterprise-A apparently traveled to the galactic core over a fairly short time duration (a few hours, or a few days). This would be a trip of many tens of thousands of light years, which would seem to suggest that the warp drive speed of the Enterprise-A is comparable to an Imperial warship using hyperdrive. However, this interpreted travel speed is completely inconsistent with every single episode of Voyager (which wouldn't even exist as a series if it weren't for the speed limitations of warp drive). Some Federation cultists have chosen to simply assume that ST5 is indicative of true warp speed, and that every other incident of poor speed is due to an anomalous condition. However, this is obviously a ludicrous assumption: if one incident contradicts literally hundreds of other incidents, then the one incident must be the anomaly. However, it still must be explained. There are a few possible explanations:
Sybok knew of a wormhole that led to the galactic core from near their starting location. This wormhole must have been unstable, but it might have remained stationary long enough for Sybok to pass through and for the crew to return to Federation territory afterwards.
Sybok might have been speaking figuratively when he said that they were headed toward the centre of the galaxy. Coruscant is invariably described as the centre of our galaxy and sometimes even the centre of the universe, yet it is thousands of light years away from the physical centre of the galaxy and extremely far from the centre of the universe. The "Great Barrier" that he spoke of was similar to the "Great Barrier" seen in TOS, which was actually at the outer edge of the galaxy. In fact, the physical appearance of the planet, and the barrier itself, indicated that it could not have been the centre of the galaxy. The small planet in ST5 bore no resemblance whatsoever to the massive collection of stellar matter, nebular gases, and antimatter fountains which have been observed at the centre of the Milky Way galaxy.
Regardless of which explanation we choose, it is clear that ST5 cannot be used as "proof" that every other film and episode in Star Trek history is incorrect in its portrayal of warp drive speed.
The Federation DS9 TM specifies that the maximum speed which can be maintained for as long as 12 hours is warp 9.9 for upgraded versions of the Galaxy-class and Nebula-class starships. Maximum 12-hour speeds are listed as warp 9.2 for the Miranda-class, warp 9.7 for the Norway-class and Saber-class, and speeds between warp 9.55 and 9.75 for various other sundry ship classes. Their fastest starship appears to be the Defiant-class, which is rated for a maximum of warp 9.982 for 12-hours. This represents a significant strategic advantage over other groups in the area such as the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Jem'Hadar, etc. According to the DS9 TM, no starship from any of those groups has been observed exceeding warp 9.6.
Using this information, we can conclude that the average Federation, Romulan, Klingon, Cardassian, or Jem'Hadar warship is capable of approximately 2000c cruising speed, with high-end ships being capable of 3000c, and a handful of exceptional vessels being capable of roughly 6000c. This is, of course, insignificant compared to the speed of hyperdrive which ranges into the millions or tens of millions of times c, but it nevertheless represents a significant improvement over previous efforts from the Federation.
Warp drives can be disrupted by strong gravity fields. The gravity well of the Dyson sphere in Relics forced the Enterprise-D out of warp, even though its surface gravity level was no higher than Earth-normal gravity. This was seen when Starfleet officers boarded the derelict, unpowered USS Jenolan, where they were able to move about unimpeded even before they re-powered the ship's systems. This indicates that the intensity of the gravity well is not as important as its sheer size- a passing starship would be influenced by such a large gravity well for an unusually long duration, even though the gravity well is no more intense than a typical planetary gravity well.
Further evidence of warp drive vulnerability to gravity wells is seen in Once More Unto the Breach when Worf used an inverse graviton beam (an anti-gravity beam) to keep Jem'Hadar warships from going to warp. The technique was successful, so this indicates that Jem'Hadar warp drives can be prevented from functioning through the use of anti-gravity beams. It is reasonable to conclude that Romulan, Klingon, and Federation warp drives would be similarly affected, since all of the aforementioned warp drives appear to function on the same basic principles.
The enormous gravity-well projectors can be reversed to project anti-gravity beams in a manner similar to a standard Imperial repulsorlift drive, but on a larger scale (and a much larger scale than Worf's puny anti-graviton beam). In fact, this was actually done in Solo Command, when an interdictor reversed its gravity-well projectors to put a Victory-class Star Destroyer away. This means that Imperial interdictor cruisers can potentially be just as effective on warp-driven starships as they are on hyperdrive-equipped starships, regardless of whether reverse-polarity is actually required.
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