Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Sardonic Crisis]

Might I note that since SW no longer contends Dune's supremacy then SW has already been subjugated and is no longer in the debate. (Perhaps it's because they can't attack my sources and I work around their liberal use of 'canon' and I also don't contend its validity in arguments)

[TW Scott]

The MOVIES override anything below them... G-Cannon is, basicly, god.

And, sadly, G-cannon overrides a LOT of the stuff you read in the books.

The movies do indeed override any EU in direct conflict
. However there is not a lot the Movies override in truth. Just a few things that would not even affect this war.

Good example - if turbolasers were nearly as strong as you try to say, you'd need, simply put, a SINGLE ISD to completely, and utterly, anihilate a SOLAR SYSTEM.

Incorrect. You are vastly underestimating the power needed to destroy all life on a planet, let alone destroy it or destroy a solar system. An ISD can provide a BDZ which makes a palents completely uninhabitable for a long time. But it could not shatter a planets. Hell even the asteroid that wiped out the dinos did not wipe out every living thing on Earth and it was thousands of times more powerful than the projected output of a Heavy Turbolaser.

Sadly, as Han said, it would take "more ships than the Imperial Starfleet has" to destroy a planet using Star Wars weapons... hence why the DS was such a threat.

Actually he said "It would take a thousand ships with more firepower than I have...Wait we have company."

Conversely, a SINGLE Star Trek ship can destroy a planet by detonating it's core... it would take a bit of time, yes, but it could do it ALONE.

We have never seen this, and in fact it has never even been proposed. So you're just pull lies out of your ass.

[Sardonic Crisis]

We have never seen this, and in fact it has never even been proposed. So you're just pull lies out of your ass.

See ST2 and 3. The genesis torpedo does, in fact, destroy a planet by making its core unstable not to mention destroying all life on a planet to use a resources for the new planet it creates. This does, in fact, take time to do... well not the wiping out of life, but the destruction of the planet itself.


And just a question for everyone out there. How powerful would a weapon have to be to burn a hole to the core of a planet AND ignite that core to fracture the planet into lifeless bits?
I'm trying to figure out the yield of a stoneburner. NOTE: The stoneburner reveals how far it delves in a matter of minutes as read in Dune Messiah... giving an idea of the rate at which it burns.

[TW Scott]

Might I note that since SW no longer contends Dune's supremacy then SW has already been subjugated and is no longer in the debate. (Perhaps it's because they can't attack my sources and I work around their liberal use of 'canon' and I also don't contend its validity in arguments)

You can't declare victory that easily, SC. Besides you haven't the resources or firepower to even think of taking on the Hutts let alone the whole Star Wars galaxy. Since low level atomic weapons are your best weapons i doubt anything you throw at an ISD would even strain the shields.

What do you have for Starships? What is your form of FTL communication? What is can your ground forces do against orbital bombardment? What would anyone one do after Telexiu, Arrakhis and several other Great House planets were destroyed in just one day. No communication from the planet concerning how it happened, just a molten slag of rock where a planet had been?

Dune wouldn't even be able to take on Farscape let alone Star Wars, they just don;t have the Naval ability.

Sure you could say the Guild could attack SW planets instantly, but what planet is going to give up it's defensive fleet to help raise such an attack? What planet would allow their ships to leave when they might very well be needed for defense? The answer is none.

So at best you get a few highliners and a few warships, all blown out of the sky a second after they appear.

Sheer firepower owns you each time.

[TW Scott]

See ST2 and 3. The genesis torpedo does, in fact, destroy a planet by making its core unstable not to mention destroying all life on a planet to use a resources for the new planet it creates. This does, in fact, take time to do... well not the wiping out of life, but the destruction of the planet itself.

that might be a feasible device, however only two were built and the ONLY person who knew how they operated was brutally murdered. Any SW monkey who can follow plans can build a Death Star, but there will never be another gensis device.

However the Genesis device did not destroy a planet, it condenced one froma nebula which is part of why it was unstable.

And just a question for everyone out there. How powerful would a weapon have to be to burn a hole to the core of a planet AND ignite that core to fracture the planet into lifeless bits?

Well you have to overcome gravitational binding energy. For a planet earthsized that is equivalnet to...2.2E32 joules that is without melting through the rock between surface and core. And is accounting for a slow breakup of the planet.

I'm trying to figure out the yield of a stoneburner. NOTE: The stoneburner reveals how far it delves in a matter of minutes as read in Dune Messiah... giving an idea of the rate at which it burns.

However you will note that despite it being designed to do that it failed, so not good for your argument.

[Sardonic Crisis]

You can't declare victory that easily, SC. Besides you haven't the resources or firepower to even think of taking on the Hutts let alone the whole Star Wars galaxy. Since low level atomic weapons are your best weapons i doubt anything you throw at an ISD would even strain the shields.

See the foldspace weapon contention I presented to the ST side of the fence but you guys ignored. Plus Dune outnumbers SW as a whole because Dune is multi-galactic.

What do you have for Starships? What is your form of FTL communication? What is can your ground forces do against orbital bombardment? What would anyone one do after Telexiu, Arrakhis and several other Great House planets were destroyed in just one day. No communication from the planet concerning how it happened, just a molten slag of rock where a planet had been?

1. Guild ships and innumerable no-ships of various types.

2. No-ship scouts with instantaneous travel.

3. Orbital attacks can only go so far. Are you going to destroy your own cities trying to oust Bene Gesserit/Honored Matres attack forces? Yeah destroy your own resources.

4.
A. Arrakhis is already a molten slag of rock.
B. The point of the scattering was to make Dune civilization no longer reliant on a centralized source... you know... The Golden Path.
C. You have to know that those planets are command centers before you target them.

Dune wouldn't even be able to take on Farscape let alone Star Wars, they just don;t have the Naval ability.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa! So does that mean Farscape pwns SW?

Sure you could say the Guild could attack SW planets instantly, but what planet is going to give up it's defensive fleet to help raise such an attack? What planet would allow their ships to leave when they might very well be needed for defense? The answer is none.

The entire Honored Matres force is transient... they would be perfectly willing to rape the SW universe one planet at a time in their No-ships.

So at best you get a few highliners and a few warships, all blown out of the sky a second after they appear.

You'll have much more numbers in your skies.... multi-galactic remember!

Sheer firepower owns you each time.

Firepower means nothing in the face of superior tactics. Isn't America STILL in Iraq? Wasn't the American Revolution a bunch of hicks taking on the all-powerful British infantry? I'm completely at a loss as to why ST and SW argues firepower so much when tactics are the key to winning. Anyone read The Art Of War? War is won by superior deception and Dune definitely trumps SW on that front.


And for god's sake TW, stop disregarding Heretics and Chapterhouse. The majority of my arguments derive from that. Remember, those were written by FRANK HERBERT. Additionally, I have put up contentions against what you present even IF they are liberally labeled canon. Brian Herbert does own the rights to the Dune universe and I dare you to find a quote from Frank that says he can't do with it what he wills.

[Sardonic Crisis]

that might be a feasible device, however only two were built and the ONLY person who knew how they operated was brutally murdered. Any SW monkey who can follow plans can build a Death Star, but there will never be another gensis device.

The info was placed in Starfleets database at high security access. See ST 3.

However the Genesis device did not destroy a planet, it condenced one froma nebula which is part of why it was unstable.

The nebula interacted with the nearby planet along with the genesis device. Kirk chastises his son for speeding up the building process which is why the planet was unstable.

Well you have to overcome gravitational binding energy. For a planet earthsized that is equivalnet to...2.2E32 joules that is without melting through the rock between surface and core. And is accounting for a slow breakup of the planet.

and what does that translates to as a weapon yield.

However you will note that despite it being designed to do that it failed, so not good for your argument.

It was not used for that purpose. The initial blast was suppose to kill Paul. He was merely noting whether or not they were reckless with the amount of fuel. Plus it would not make sense destroying the spice that they sought to free from his grip.

[TW Scott]

See the foldspace weapon contention I presented to the ST side of the fence but you guys ignored. Plus Dune outnumbers SW as a whole because Dune is multi-galactic.

Dune may be multigalactic, but each world is so sparsely populated as to be laughable. 12 million was considered a very impressive number on a planet.

As for the space fold weapon show me where it was used. Then we will speak

1. Guild ships and innumerable no-ships of various types.

No ships would not likely be able to hide against foes who can detect other universal travel in a 100 light year radius. And since Atomics was their WMD i doubt any ship is going to be armed

2. No-ship scouts with instantaneous travel.

Yeah and as you are fading into view you're whole ship systems go offline form ion canon fire.

3. Orbital attacks can only go so far. Are you going to destroy your own cities trying to oust Bene Gesserit/Honored Matres attack forces? Yeah destroy your own resources.

How are you going to get on planet? Kinda hard to get on a planet and get through customs in a repressive regime. Not to mention god forbit one of the reverend mothers meets a darkside adept, or one of the emperors hounds. She'd never live to tell the tale.

.

A. Arrakhis is already a molten slag of rock.

Well, i was talking back when Frank was alive and still writing and it was actually a cool universe.

B. The point of the scattering was to make Dune civilization no longer reliant on a centralized source... you know... The Golden Path.

Still there is no such thing as a truly independant country or in Dune's case planet.

C. You have to know that those planets are command centers before you target them.

Just watching the traffic too and from would be a BIG clue. You don;t think SW would go in blind do you?

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa! So does that mean Farscape pwns SW?

No, it means even Frascape would PWN Dune. Hell even Earth Above and Beyond would PWN Dune

The entire Honored Matres force is transient... they would be perfectly willing to rape the SW universe one planet at a time in their No-ships.

And the SW universe would see them coming. Remeber they are only invisible to the naked eye and to spice prescience not Force Prescience or gravity sensros. Hell Palaptine would let them come to Curuscant and decloak so they could fire and then uncloak two ISD per No-ship just to scare the Honored Matres shitless before they died horrible deaths at the wrong ends of weapons that would completely anhilate their ships.

You'll have much more numbers in your skies.... multi-galactic remember!

Multiglatic, but with around 12 million per planet and a thousand great houses. If there were some many numbers the Emperor could have just came with 50 billion troops and owned the Fremen, but he didn;t becuase he didn;t have the troops. neither do you. Multigalatic you might be but it does not mean you have more worlds or people.

Firepower means nothing in the face of superior tactics. Isn't America STILL in Iraq? Wasn't the American Revolution a bunch of hicks taking on the all-powerful British infantry? I'm completely at a loss as to why ST and SW argues firepower so much when tactics are the key to winning. Anyone read The Art Of War? War is won by superior deception and Dune definitely trumps SW on that front.

Actually the War in Iraq is over. Right now we are just trying to help rebuild a nation and some idiots are making life difficult by targeting civillians. Remeber the US crushed Saddam in just three weeks.

America actually had the superior weapons. Britsh were using smooth bore muskets, not the accurate rifles the americans had. Plus in the south the britsh troops were crippled by malaria.

As for the Art of War, that assumes to enemies of reasonably equal caliber. If Sun Tzu was alive today his book would be written differently. Weapons do make the difference. Look at the last Samurai Rebellion, thei Samurai were undoubtedly the better warriors, but were killed to the last by superior firepower.

As for the deception thing, no one beats Palpatine, the man had Yoda, Windo, Kenobi, Amidala, and the whole damn galaxy fooled untill it was to late.

And for god's sake TW, stop disregarding Heretics and Chapterhouse. The majority of my arguments derive from that. Remember, those were written by FRANK HERBERT. Additionally, I have put up contentions against what you present even IF they are liberally labeled canon. Brian Herbert does own the rights to the Dune universe and I dare you to find a quote from Frank that says he can't do with it what he wills.

Well can you find me something Frank said that says Brian can? I'll bet not. In fact I'll bet if there was anything it was a list of limitation Frank wanted the kid to follow.

Can you find me an instance where Dune has displayed any technology that could possibly compete with the Death Star?

Even the Holtzman field would not protect them. Especially given how it reacts to near light speed particles. Once ST figured that out, all their phasers would fire pulses and there would laughs as the DUne ships were destroyed by low power settings.

[TW Scott]

The info was placed in Starfleets database at high security access. See ST 3.

Saw ST3 and nobody knew David had used protomatter. No one. Not even his mother.

The nebula interacted with the nearby planet along with the genesis device. Kirk chastises his son for speeding up the building process which is why the planet was unstable.

Kirk did not chastise him at all. What movie did you see? Becuase it was not Star Trek 2 or Star Trek 3. The planet was unstable becuase it was a colapse nebula and the device that did it was made with protomatter. how is that difficult to understand.

and what does that translates to as a weapon yield.

Well 1 gram of TNT is 4.18E3 joules....52,631,578,947,368.4 gigatons. Now that is the extreme lower end limit of a weapon such as the Death Star Superlaser

It was not used for that purpose. The initial blast was suppose to kill Paul. He was merely noting whether or not they were reckless with the amount of fuel. Plus it would not make sense destroying the spice that they sought to free from his grip.

Okay, if they wanted to kill Pual why not use the full yeild after leading him off planet? You are ascribing extra data from what we have seen and read. They used a full blown Stone-burner and it failed spectacularly. Which leads me to believe that the Stoneburner was not as effective as they thought it would be.

[Saquist]

colapse nebula and the device that did it was made with protomatter. how is that difficult to understand.

Apparently very difficult because you got it wrong.
The Genesis Device was unstable because of the use of Protomatter.
David took short cuts to solves the problems with the matrix.

No where in that movie did it say that the nebula caused the instability.
So I must ask what movie did YOU see?

[Saquist]

Actually Roddenberry only doesn;t have say over his work currently becuase he is deceased. Paramount went against it's own interest and gave into Roddenberry declaring the whole Animated series non-canon. They did so becuase of the respect they had for the creator. So saying he didn;t have 100% control is bullshit, completely and utterly.

The Wiki is your kryptonite, TW.
"Gene Roddenberry sold Star Trek to NBC as a classic adventure drama"

What ever control Roddenberry had was...how shall we say, a vasal authority.
So clean up that "BS" sitting on your lip, eh?

. So yes there is a supreme canon, but it is over a very small part of the big picture. What other canon there is is just as real and sacred as long as it does not directly contradict the movies.

How hard is that to understand?

And yet you get it wrong again. Are these concepts to difficult for you to appreciate? They seem simple enough to me. G-Canon is absolute.

Absolute:

Having and exercising complete political power and control.

No other canon is absolute.
In otherwords the stories which are dependent on the movies and cannot dictate canon that is established.
You can't say in more simple to understand terms...

for example:
The Rebel Fleet Fired on the Executor according to the EU.
The thinking being since the movie did not say the captial ships did not execute a bombardment that the EU understanding is now G-canon.

That would be wrong. It's still an understanding of lesser canon. Not absolute. So if the movie didn't show it....then it didn't happen. That's the nature of absolute. What you see it what you get and what you didn't see...didn't happen.

[Flectarn]

Notice how you forget that the Executioner had been in close contact fighting with two other Spacestation ships as well as a few other capital ships. It had been taking pounding from an actual fleet of ships as well as fighter for several minutes. The shields in some area were probably become compromised. One such area was probably the Sensopr dome on the bridge. When it was taken out by a rather lucky hit by a fighter pilot, the resulting explosion and feedback cuased the shields on the bridge to collapse. The ship did manage to destroy one of two oncoming starfighters, at a 90 degree angle to the cannon no less, but the A-wing managed to get through at maximum acceleration and destroy primary bridge by ramming throgh the Transparisteel bridge. The resulting damage took the ship on a collison course with the Death Star before Auxilliary control could transfer control. This wasn't the Imperial being dumb, but rather just being on the wrong end of one the great Military Minds of Star Wars.


Actually even a squadron of fighters is little threat to an ISD, however when backed by a capital ship they do get more dangerous.

Actually Concussion missiles can be seen in Attack of the Clones when Jango is chasing Obi-wan's fighter through the rings of Geonosis.

As for the genrator explosion, it might have seemed unimpressive, but i would bet a 120mm HEAT round would look unimpressive, but it cuts through armor like butter. Appearances can be deceiving.

hm, my understanding of the scene was that prior to ackbars order to focus on the ssd, the mon cal cruisers had mainly been engaging the ISD's (the ones they would likely have a chance again). Fighters may have been providing as SJ says, providing harassment fire (which has to do damage to have any consequence, or be effective in distracting a ship)

also, why are the the Mon Cal cruisers worried about the Tie's (when the ISD's arn't attacking) if fighters of no consequence alone.

Ok, I still haven't seen attack of the clones...







The HEAT round thing would be a good counter, if the generator looked remoatly armored, hell, it those torp things hit support struts, and make the generator collapse on it's self which causes most of the explosion we see.

[SkywalkerJedi]

See the foldspace weapon contention I presented to the ST side of the fence but you guys ignored. Plus Dune outnumbers SW as a whole because Dune is multi-galactic.

So is Star Wars. Star Wars galaxy inculdes the Galactic Republic, Rishi Maze, Yuuzhan Vong Empire.

1. Guild ships and innumerable no-ships of various types.

2. No-ship scouts with instantaneous travel.

3. Orbital attacks can only go so far. Are you going to destroy your own cities trying to oust Bene Gesserit/Honored Matres attack forces? Yeah destroy your own resources.

They will be willing to go that far.

The entire Honored Matres force is transient... they would be perfectly willing to rape the SW universe one planet at a time in their No-ships.

You do realise that there are the GAR, CIS and Imperial forces to take care of.

You'll have much more numbers in your skies.... multi-galactic remember!

So is Star Wars, the Yuuzhan Vong entered the galaxy in Vector Prime.

Firepower means nothing in the face of superior tactics. Isn't America STILL in Iraq? Wasn't the American Revolution a bunch of hicks taking on the all-powerful British infantry? I'm completely at a loss as to why ST and SW argues firepower so much when tactics are the key to winning. Anyone read The Art Of War? War is won by superior deception and Dune definitely trumps SW on that front.

In Heir To the Empire, and other books in Thrawn Triology you would find Imperial tactics superior. The Republic is also a good example of fine tactics. Also the Jedi can use Battle Meditation to help.

[SkywalkerJedi]

And yet you get it wrong again. Are these concepts to difficult for you to appreciate? They seem simple enough to me. G-Canon is absolute.

Absolute:

Having and exercising complete political power and control.

No other canon is absolute.
In otherwords the stories which are dependent on the movies and cannot dictate canon that is established.
You can't say in more simple to understand terms...

for example:
The Rebel Fleet Fired on the Executor according to the EU.
The thinking being since the movie did not say the captial ships did not execute a bombardment that the EU understanding is now G-canon.

That would be wrong. It's still an understanding of lesser canon. Not absolute. So if the movie didn't show it....then it didn't happen. That's the nature of absolute. What you see it what you get and what you didn't see...didn't happen.

Yet alot of times EU explains alot of things that happens between movies.
For example Anakin got the scar from Ventress, which is accuate in anyway, it also explains Anakin's rage. Rebel Fleet did fire on Executor, review the movies but it didn't do the lethal blow, and Gold Squdron is apart of the Rebel fleet.

[SkywalkerJedi]

hm, my understanding of the scene was that prior to ackbars order to focus on the ssd, the mon cal cruisers had mainly been engaging the ISD's (the ones they would likely have a chance again). Fighters may have been providing as SJ says, providing harassment fire (which has to do damage to have any consequence, or be effective in distracting a ship)

It is also small enough for sabatoge missions, tracking and it is used to attack smaller support craft.

also, why are the the Mon Cal cruisers worried about the Tie's (when the ISD's arn't attacking) if fighters of no consequence alone.

The Mon Calmiri Cruisers didn't even care about the TIEs. " Only the Starfighters are attacking, I wonder what are the Star Destroyers waiting for ?"- Lando Carrissian. Also they were worries because the ISD might just suddenly attack. It is no consequence to bigger ships, but not to support and light armed, shields and armored ships.

Ok, I still haven't seen attack of the clones...







The HEAT round thing would be a good counter, if the generator looked remoatly armored, hell, it those torp things hit support struts, and make the generator collapse on it's self which causes most of the explosion we see.

Man, attack of the clones were out in 1996. No, it hit the middle of the power generator that run on hypermatter, it destroyed the thing middle that caused the whole thing to collapse, and Proton Tropedoes are used as flank weapons on Starfighters, and concussion missiles are stronger.

[Flectarn]

It is also small enough for sabatoge missions, tracking and it is used to attack smaller support craft.


The Mon Calmiri Cruisers didn't even care about the TIEs. " Only the Starfighters are attacking, I wonder what are the Star Destroyers waiting for ?"- Lando Carrissian. Also they were worries because the ISD might just suddenly attack. It is no consequence to bigger ships, but not to support and light armed, shields and armored ships.


Man, attack of the clones were out in 1996. No, it hit the middle of the power generator that run on hypermatter, it destroyed the thing middle that caused the whole thing to collapse, and Proton Tropedoes are used as flank weapons on Starfighters, and concussion missiles are stronger.

I assume by 1996 you mean 2002...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121765/

The Millennium Falcon and several squads of Rebel fighters head
into an armada of TIE fighters. The sky explodes as a fierce
dogfight ensues in and around the giant Rebel cruisers.

REBEL PILOT
There's too many of them!

LANDO
Accelerate to attack speed! Draw their fire
away from the cruisers.

http://www.blueharvest.net/scoops/rotj-script.shtml

There would be no need to draw their fire away from the cruisers if the ties were no threat to the cruisers (though i have a hard time believing the TIE is much of a threat to anything... but thats another matter entirely)

[SkywalkerJedi]

I assume by 1996 you mean 2002...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121765/

The Millennium Falcon and several squads of Rebel fighters head
into an armada of TIE fighters. The sky explodes as a fierce
dogfight ensues in and around the giant Rebel cruisers.

REBEL PILOT
There's too many of them!

LANDO
Accelerate to attack speed! Draw their fire
away from the cruisers.
http://www.blueharvest.net/scoops/rotj-script.shtml

There would be no need to draw their fire away from the cruisers if the ties were no threat to the cruisers (though i have a hard time believing the TIE is much of a threat to anything... but thats another matter entirely)

They would be a threat to lighter armed, armored and shielded support craft and Starfighters, especially TIE Defenders, TIE Interpectors and TIE Bombers that have concussion missiles and heavier lasers. They need to defend the Starfighters for the entery into the Death Star.

[Flectarn]

They would be a threat to lighter armed, armored and shielded support craft and Starfighters, especially TIE Defenders, TIE Interpectors and TIE Bombers that have concussion missiles and heavier lasers. They need to defend the Starfighters for the entery into the Death Star.

I wasn't aware that a cruiser was a lightly armed and armored support craft.

there are no TIE defenders, Interceptors or Bombers in this engagement just the crappy little tinfoil fighters. Nor do they use an missiles

if they were going to defend the star fighters so they could enter the death star they wouldn't use those very same fighters to draw the ties away from the cruisers. remember Lando's on the falcon at this time... part of the fighter force attacking the DS

[SkywalkerJedi]

I wasn't aware that a cruiser was a lightly armed and armored support craft.

there are no TIE defenders, Interceptors or Bombers in this engagement just the crappy little tinfoil fighters. Nor do they use an missiles

if they were going to defend the star fighters so they could enter the death star they wouldn't use those very same fighters to draw the ties away from the cruisers. remember Lando's on the falcon at this time... part of the fighter force attacking the DS

Depend on the class rating. Yes there are TIE Defenders, Interceptors and bombers, review Battle of Endor, if you look carefully you can find them, I saw one in your youtube clip, you just need to know what they look like. The Death Star's ray shields are on, and they alos need to protect some light frigates.

TIE Defenders


TIE Interceptors ( also called TIE Indictor ) is not in the battle but TIE Bomber is

TIE Bomber

[SkywalkerJedi]

Sorry I was wrong, there are TIE Interceptors in the battle




The first four fighters are interceptors.