Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Sardonic Crisis]

Dune would get roasted for one simple reason - Torpedoes. A solid object, fired at high speed, with a warp engine. All systems shutdown upon proximity to the shield - once past the shield, it detonates on bare hull.

And thus ends the Dune debate again

In all honesty, LazGuns would be quickly adapted to and rendered worthless, and their shields would be of no use should, say, a Plasma Torpedo or a Hellbore Cannon impact the ship - those work on the kinetic energy of a high-power implosion to crush the offending ship.

Torpedoes fall under the category of PROJECTILE WEAPON and are therefor REPELLED by Holtzman shielding. Only by a SLOW enough velocity would they impact the ship. At FTL speeds (ie; warp speed) you risk the interaction of the holtzman/lazgun type... but honestly I don't know what would happen there, you have a shield that works under subatomic theories and we would need a person versed in quantum mechanics to theorize on that.

I agree that lazguns would be ineffectual except on unshielded opponents. I propose instead that the Dune universe would use its greatest technological asset (the holtzman effect) as a weapon.

The Hellbore would be resisted due to the fact the holtzman shield is designed to thwart kinetic based attacks. The plasma torpedo is again fired in a projectile manner.

Star Trek? Star Wars? pshh
The Sleeper has awakened!

[SkywalkerJedi]

How about Centerpoint Station? Centerpoint is use neither projectile or beam weapon. It can crush a Star into the size of a pancake.

[Sardonic Crisis]

How about Centerpoint Station? Centerpoint is use neither projectile or beam weapon. It can crush a Star into the size of a pancake.

1.What is the make up of this centerpoint station and 2. can it survive a ship larger than an executor class (i refer to a highliner) making a fold space jump inside of it.

I recall that this was the main tactic that would be used against the death star in the first fifty pages of this thread and you warsies had no logical comeback to it.

[TW Scott]

Torpedoes fall under the category of PROJECTILE WEAPON and are therefor REPELLED by Holtzman shielding. Only by a SLOW enough velocity would they impact the ship. At FTL speeds (ie; warp speed) you risk the interaction of the holtzman/lazgun type... but honestly I don't know what would happen there, you have a shield that works under subatomic theories and we would need a person versed in quantum mechanics to theorize on that.

I agree that lazguns would be ineffectual except on unshielded opponents. I propose instead that the Dune universe would use its greatest technological asset (the holtzman effect) as a weapon.

The Hellbore would be resisted due to the fact the holtzman shield is designed to thwart kinetic based attacks. The plasma torpedo is again fired in a projectile manner.

Star Trek? Star Wars? pshh
The Sleeper has awakened!

Actually the holtzman shield would still need to expend the energy to reflect the incoming attack. Just a general part of reality, you can't get something for nothing. Since kiloton to megaton level atomics are considered ultimate weapons in Dune there is little hope the universe could survive against the Empire or the Federation. The Navigators are too dependant on spice and both governments could easily destroy the sources. For Star Wars it would be a simple push of a button, for Star Trek a major battle but there is little doubt which side would win. When all you have to do is disrupt the ecology, winning the battle is easy.

Dune's only real advantage is ground forces, but even that is is largely useless as both Star Trek and Star Wars would easily win from the air.

As for the Sleeper, nothing in the movies is anymore impressive than we see Jedi Knights doing. In fact I daresay Jedi are more impressive, do you realize how hard it is to fight with a weightless blade.

A more interesting fight would be Imperioum of Man (Warhammer 40K) versus the Fremen. I have no doubt Imperial Guard would be just cannon fodder, but Adeptus Astartes and Adepta Sororitas would walk all over the Fremen. Not to mention the Greyknights. Though it would be fun to see the Fremen reaction to an Imperator Titan.

[Sardonic Crisis]

The Sleeper was vaporized in a Supernova form a shot clear across the galaxy. Are we having fun yet?

1. Even if you could find the command center of the Dune universe (no-fields hiding it from detection) how do you think you can pierce through into another universe.

2. How long would it take for such an attack to reach such a distance?

Looking at the Star Trek and Star Wars Universes, only the Dune universe is capable of traveling to a different universe via holtzman engines (Duncan Idaho hid the Ithaca in another universe to avoid The Enemy). I'll grant ST the ability because they have the Q but what is Q when faced with Norma Cenva, The Oracle of Time?

[SkywalkerJedi]

1.What is the make up of this centerpoint station and 2. can it survive a ship larger than an executor class (i refer to a highliner) making a fold space jump inside of it.

I recall that this was the main tactic that would be used against the death star in the first fifty pages of this thread and you warsies had no logical comeback to it.

1)Excuse me, you are the one thats not making any sense at all, you don't "know" Star Wars as well as TW Scott and me. You don't even have an answer for my Centerpoint tactic, let alone for it to be logical and reasonable.
2)Centerpoint use a gravitaional field that can crush a netron star into the size of a pancake, it wiped out the Galactic Alliance Second Fleet with one blow, it can easily defeat a fleet even when it is 24,000+ lightyears away.
3) Are you drunk or are you on crack? The tactic used aginst the Death Star won't work at all aginst Centerpoint Station, the only way to destroy it is Self-Destruct or an interal explodsion.
4) Star Forge can always make a new one in a short time, so there will be a fleet of Centerpoints in a few weeks.
5) You don't even know what your talking about, even Star Trek can beat Dune, using the Doomsday Device, and Species 8349 Plant-Killer. Star Wars will use the Sun Crusher, Star Forge, World Devastor, Galaxy Gun, Death Stars, and Centerpoint.

[antaran_1979]

To your first point. If they fall under the category of "beam" weapons they operate under the spectrum of light, ie; phasers requiring remodulation of their frequency to overcome borg adaptations. What I'm saying is that focused particles fired at extreme speeds cause the holtzman shields to react. It's the deduction of lasers being focused light particles fired in the same way.

To your second. The holtzman shield does have the fault to allow objects in at slow enough velocity. However, take into account that in space battle kinetic weapons would have no effect on the holtzman shields due to the ships own velocity factoring in. Sure you can slow a torp down to hit a stationary ship but what about one that isn't stationary?

1. you are tring to say that light beams are particle beams??? let me rephrase, you claim that photons are the same thing as electrons. lasers refer to the emissions of quants known as photons, that can be considered particles that don't have a mass if not in motion. particle beams refer to all sharged and neutral emissions of particles that DO have a zero mass (mass when standing still). so the nature of these two types of beams is fundamentaly diferent. the first and foremost distincion is that lasers can move at c (lightspeed), and only at c, depending on the medium. however electron,proton, neutron, apha particles or any other particle can move at any speed lower then c, depending on the energy used to accelerate them. and focused particles do not cause the violent reaction with the shields in Dune. the particlular Holtzman induced laser does. otherwise they would react on microscopic high-kinetic projectiles.

2. bah you can use a figter/shuttle/runabout to drop it on the ship. both ST and SW have used bomb-like warheads. besides firecontrol on the guided weapons does not seam to be too much of a problem, at least in 23 century UFP.

on the side note, in the final battle at Arakeen, the charged sand storm was enough to bring down the city/palace shields. of they have truble maintaing it against that, i doubt it will hold out against proton or anti-matter warheads and their respective blasts. the only serious advantage of the Dune universe (as far as Devine Emperor goes) is their FTL method, that involves instant travel, sort of what coaxial warp does, or the old Asimov's hyperdrive. hoever only the Guild Highliners exibit souch capabilities (the Navigator issue), so any deployment of forces is very problematic. not to mention the high level of risk that the liners would have to be exposed if they enter engagement area.

[SkywalkerJedi]

1. Even if you could find the command center of the Dune universe (no-fields hiding it from detection) how do you think you can pierce through into another universe.

2. How long would it take for such an attack to reach such a distance?

Looking at the Star Trek and Star Wars Universes, only the Dune universe is capable of traveling to a different universe via holtzman engines (Duncan Idaho hid the Ithaca in another universe to avoid The Enemy). I'll grant ST the ability because they have the Q but what is Q when faced with Norma Cenva, The Oracle of Time?

Hyperspace can travel half way across the Galaxy in a hour. Hyperspace is another dimension.

[TW Scott]

1. Even if you could find the command center of the Dune universe (no-fields hiding it from detection) how do you think you can pierce through into another universe.

2. How long would it take for such an attack to reach such a distance?

Looking at the Star Trek and Star Wars Universes, only the Dune universe is capable of traveling to a different universe via holtzman engines (Duncan Idaho hid the Ithaca in another universe to avoid The Enemy). I'll grant ST the ability because they have the Q but what is Q when faced with Norma Cenva, The Oracle of Time?

Small problem here. SW travels IN another universe all the flipping time. Star Trek knows of other universes. Though the assumption is that for the battle the two universe on the same level of existance.

As for anything after Frank Herbert died, it's just rubbish. His kid managed to follow the rules his father sat down for one book, then started messing with everything. I admit, pretty good story, but the Kid ruined the whole consistancy his father had been known for.

[SkywalkerJedi]

Do you know how many ships Galactic Republic, CIS, Empire, UFP, Romulans and Klingons have? More than the stars visable at night in the Northern Hemisphere.

[antaran_1979]

1)Excuse me, you are the one thats not making any sense at all, you don't "know" Star Wars as well as TW Scott and me. You don't even have an answer for my Centerpoint tactic, let alone for it to be logical and reasonable.
2)Centerpoint use a gravitaional field that can crush a netron star into the size of a pancake, it wiped out the Galactic Alliance Second Fleet with one blow, it can easily defeat a fleet even when it is 24,000+ lightyears away.
3) Are you drunk or are you on crack? The tactic used aginst the Death Star won't work at all aginst Centerpoint Station, the only way to destroy it is Self-Destruct or an interal explodsion.
4) Star Forge can always make a new one in a short time, so there will be a fleet of Centerpoints in a few weeks.
5) You don't even know what your talking about, even Star Trek can beat Dune, using the Doomsday Device, and Species 8349 Plant-Killer. Star Wars will use the Sun Crusher, Star Forge, World Devastor, Galaxy Gun, Death Stars, and Centerpoint.

actualy using gravity or quantum gravity weapons against the Holtzman shield id a bad idea since its basicly the same concept (folding space). this would destory the Centerpoint station (whatever that is). just stick to conventional weapons (like plasma/nuclear/particle systems).

[SkywalkerJedi]

Star Forge can produce a very large armda in 2-3 days. They can just make a fleet of Eclips-class. Galaxy Gun can destroy a planet in one shot. And Sun Crusher can make a sun go supernova in one shot.

[antaran_1979]

Small problem here. SW travels IN another universe all the flipping time. Star Trek knows of other universes. Though the assumption is that for the battle the two universe on the same level of existance.

As for anything after Frank Herbert died, it's just rubbish. His kid managed to follow the rules his father sat down for one book, then started messing with everything. I admit, pretty good story, but the Kid ruined the whole consistancy his father had been known for.

i agree with TWS here. hyperspace is the facto anothe universe, and even in TNG we have seen UFP travel to another universes. some species like Voth can even "displace" themselves in other "phases". no-fields might have posed problems in Dune universe, but just because they don't have the method of detection, it does not mean that ST or SW don't or can't develop it.

[antaran_1979]

Star Forge can produce a very large armda in 2-3 days. They can just make a fleet of Eclips-class. Galaxy Gun can destroy a planet in one shot. And Sun Crusher can make a sun go supernova in one shot.

lay off the star forge. i played KOTOR and it makes no sence. who would man those ships, autopilot? besides if we start using the games as references, this would soon turn into jiberish of bad info

[TW Scott]

lay off the star forge. i played KOTOR and it makes no sence. who would man those ships, autopilot? besides if we start using the games as references, this would soon turn into jiberish of bad info

Never did like the whole Star Forge myself, though it is referenced in more than just the game. The way I saw it it was just a uber spacedock. Create ships in a fraction of the time. Though you still need pilots.

Honestly World Devastators are better as they are mobile and not fussy about what you feed them. An asteroid is just as good as refined ore in it's book.

[TW Scott]

actualy using gravity or quantum gravity weapons against the Holtzman shield id a bad idea since its basicly the same concept (folding space). this would destory the Centerpoint station (whatever that is). just stick to conventional weapons (like plasma/nuclear/particle systems).

Why would it destroy Centerpoint? Wouldn't the weaker of the two items be the one affected the worst. After all Centerpoint moved a Corellia intersteller and perhaps even intergalatic distance PRIOR to the emergence of the Rakatan empire.

[Hellblade8]

Excatly, G-Canon is the altimate canon, anything that contradicted with it is non-canon.
C-canon is the Lucasfilm licienced EU.
T-canon is Clone Wars, right after G-canon.

*Smacks Head*

No.

World 1:

The Movies, Novels by George Lucas, and the TV shows. The Movies are the highest canon.

World 2:

G-Canon, T-Canon, and C canon.

World 3:

Video games and RPG stuff.

[Hellblade8]

It broke in to because of Turbolaser damage, not because of atmosphere pressure.

Sky, that isn't all that likely.

A more reasonable expliantion is that it was an outer hull designed to repel Turbo Laser fire. If the armor is made to absorb or repel the weapon's energy to some degree, it might explain why they carry easily rip away material. It might even be a more primitive method of the Defiant's ablative armor.

[TW Scott]

The largest Fedetation vessle is 700 meters, the largest SW vessel that is not cassified a space station is 2000 meters. Now even a child can tell you that you need stronger material to build a 2000meter structure than you do a 700 meter structure.

Actually, the largest non-station ship, the Executor, was around 17km... Home One is 3km+, as is a Trade Fed battleship... hell, a Mon Cal cruiser is 2300 meters! God Scott, you don't even know the specs on the side you're arguing!

Actually, Executor, Eclipse, Home one and other such ships are classified as Space Stations As are the Trade Federation Bulk Cruisers that they converted to makeshift battleships. Pelase learn your starship classification better. If you have a probelm i suggest reading a few novels. the novelization of ESB especially is usefull.

When objects collide with ST vessels they plow deeply in and sometime fly right through the hul without slowing down. When object collide with a SW vessel the objects explode on the surface like chalk thrown at a brickwall.

That just proves that the forward bulkheads of ships in Star Trek are far stronger than the side bulkheads... as it SHOULD be. Think about it... even today - cars collide head on, both take about the same damage. Car t-bones another car - the car that got hit is pretty much gone, the one that hit it takes FAR less damage! This just means ALL the bulkheads on Star Wars ships suck...

Actually, I would think most people would recognize the tougher vessels. Would it be the the one that pulverized a meteor that struck it's bridge towere, even if the tower might have been knocked off?
Or is it the vessel that was rammed at 1 km an hour and the ramming ship flew straight through the hull like a linebacker through crepe paper?

[Sardonic Crisis]

Actually the holtzman shield would still need to expend the energy to reflect the incoming attack. Just a general part of reality, you can't get something for nothing.

I believe the Holtzman effect is based on manipulating subatomic particles to get the energy to power it. The shielding dissipates the energy at the subatomic level. Think of it this way... the shield acts like a knife cutting through the energy rather than a barrier to prevent the whole of it. Also the Holtzman shielding is form-fitting rather than ray projected like in SW or the elliptical sphere in ST which means it has to dissipate energy over a smaller surface area.

Since kiloton to megaton level atomics are considered ultimate weapons in Dune there is little hope the universe could survive against the Empire or the Federation.

They never revealed the yield of these 'atomic' weapons. However, in Dune Messiah they refer to the stoneburner (a form of atomic), if not given low enough yield, would destroy the planet by creating a fracture to the core.

The Navigators are too dependant on spice and both governments could easily destroy the sources. For Star Wars it would be a simple push of a button, for Star Trek a major battle but there is little doubt which side would win. When all you have to do is disrupt the ecology, winning the battle is easy.

Spice in the later novels was able to be artificially reproduced hence taking away the reliance on one planet not to mention all the bene gesserit that went out into the universe to create Dune planets with sand trout. No a push of the button doesn't hold out for SW and against ST Dune has more numbers... at the time of the God Emperor, Leto II the empire alone was multigalactic.

Dune's only real advantage is ground forces, but even that is is largely useless as both Star Trek and Star Wars would easily win from the air.

Already shown you how the Dune universe could handle the air/space aspect. Which means Dune ground combat would give a significant advantage in conquering planets as well as being equal to the other two in planet scale destruction.

As for the Sleeper, nothing in the movies is anymore impressive than we see Jedi Knights doing. In fact I daresay Jedi are more impressive, do you realize how hard it is to fight with a weightless blade.

Obviously, you have not read the Dune series the Bene Gesserit/Honored Matres would toy with the Jedi/Sith before wiping the floor with them.