Star Wars vs Star Trek

[daveeb]

The Duras Sisters ship was a fucking 100 some year old piece of shit... it was an original Bird of Prey! And, if you didn't notice, they were firing via manual controls because their ships computer could not be used to fire while cloaked (another reason that ship was a piece of shit)

20 year old Bird of Prey. It was retired in the 2350's because of a faulty cloaking device. The actually weaponry on the ship was not faulty or bad.

Still, a Galaxy-class starship should have been able to destroy that ship without the use of Treknobabble. Unfortunately, Riker was in command.

As for the Voth argument, I will just leave it at this: They are the only race that could possibly evade the Empire. And, if they were to be against running, I personally think that they could be the leading scientists for the Empire in everything but weaponry.

[TW Scott]

i would not call the sling shot around the sun (when time travel is atempted) a strait line. transwarp operates in both modes. we just don't know which is which and who uses those. for the Borg it apears that hubs are faster then standalone units, however Voth don't apear to imploy hubs.

Actually in quantum physics the ship slingshots around the sun but is always moving straight forward, it is the gravity of the sun that pulls it into a curve.

I know it sounds silly, but i take Hawkins at his word here.

Also you will note that the slightest error is time travel computations is certain death as your ship is torn apart by the stress. Hell even successful computation may kill you if the ship is not tough enough. Finally only one person in Star trek history has performed those computations, and he's currently playing Ambassador to the Romulans.

[antaran_1979]

Duras sister's Bird of Prey was indeed old, perhaps 30 years old as they were decommisioned only twenty years prior. As we saw in both ST:5 and ST:Generations the targeting scope did indeed have computer assisted aiming. Which is far smarter than just leaving it in the hands of humans. Still however the Duras sisters missed multiple times.

You will note this is not the only case of Star Trek ships missing targets even at point blank range without cloaks and moving slowly. Also in SW you will note that no capital ship has ever missed another capital ship when firing upon it with intent to destroy. (The attack on the Tantive IV in ANH was meant to keep the vessel along a narrow path and to cripple it, not destroy). Sure the Capital Ships miss fighters, but they are small, maneverable and moving 5 to 10 times as fast as the normal ships.

how about those misses in RoTJ. those ships were relatively slow moving thowards eachother.

the firing in ST5 does nor say how ot if is computed aided.

[antaran_1979]

i would not call the sling shot around the sun (when time travel is atempted) a strait line. transwarp operates in both modes. we just don't know which is which and who uses those. for the Borg it apears that hubs are faster then standalone units, however Voth don't apear to imploy hubs.

Actually in quantum physics the ship slingshots around the sun but is always moving straight forward, it is the gravity of the sun that pulls it into a curve.

I know it sounds silly, but i take Hawkins at his word here.

Also you will note that the slightest error is time travel computations is certain death as your ship is torn apart by the stress. Hell even successful computation may kill you if the ship is not tough enough. Finally only one person in Star trek history has performed those computations, and he's currently playing Ambassador to the Romulans.[/QUOTE]

the point of the argument is they can use warp drive while near strong gravity wells. even in planetary atmoshpere. voyager used it inside a singularity. the gravity afects the trajectory, no the propulsion. and they have changed their course while in warp so all the course corections would be a minor task.

[Kittamaru]

no mate, you are wrong here. their ship was a bird of pray that was decomisioned beacause it had defective plasma coils (sensitive to ion pulses). and they did not fire cloacked. they used manual fire simply because many Klingons like to do so (i supos to show their precision). remember ST5?

I thought the Duras sisters had fired thru the cloak?

*ponders* Wait, is this where they destroyed the Enterprise? While Picard was in the rift? (Generations I think?)

[Kittamaru]

i would not call the sling shot around the sun (when time travel is atempted) a strait line. transwarp operates in both modes. we just don't know which is which and who uses those. for the Borg it apears that hubs are faster then standalone units, however Voth don't apear to imploy hubs.

Actually in quantum physics the ship slingshots around the sun but is always moving straight forward, it is the gravity of the sun that pulls it into a curve.

I know it sounds silly, but i take Hawkins at his word here.

Also you will note that the slightest error is time travel computations is certain death as your ship is torn apart by the stress. Hell even successful computation may kill you if the ship is not tough enough. Finally only one person in Star trek history has performed those computations, and he's currently playing Ambassador to the Romulans.[/QUOTE]

So NOW scott tries to play the physics card?

Scott, if this were true the way you describe, then we could indeed warp in circles around a planet... just warp in a way that puts us along the peremeter of the strongest high-orbit gravitational belt

[TW Scott]

the point of the argument is they can use warp drive while near strong gravity wells. even in planetary atmoshpere. voyager used it inside a singularity. the gravity afects the trajectory, no the propulsion. and they have changed their course while in warp so all the course corections would be a minor task.

Actually if I remember the episode in question they used warp, but had to plot many minijumps in order not to stress the hull. I am not say they can't, I am just saying it's not something they lightly do. After all stress cracks can build up over time. You might be good doing it 100 times but 101 might be the time the nacelles keep going and leave your ship behind.

[TW Scott]

how about those misses in RoTJ. those ships were relatively slow moving thowards eachother.

They were firing on fighters. Everytime Capship fired on Capship they hit. Capships aiming at Fighter was dicey.

the firing in ST5 does nor say how ot if is computed aided.

Are you telling me you saw no animated crosshairs? You saw no ranging information? You saw now scan information? You saw no HUD? There was just a painted on crosshair in your version of the movie.

[TW Scott]

So NOW scott tries to play the physics card?

Scott, if this were true the way you describe, then we could indeed warp in circles around a planet... just warp in a way that puts us along the peremeter of the strongest high-orbit gravitational belt

I think you should note this was only successfully done a single handfull of times and was considered almost suicide each time. It's the intense gravity of a star that is needed and even then it puts unbearable strain on the vessel. It's never been done outside of the incidents where Mr. Spock was plotting the course.

In other words it's just not something you can repeat on demand.

[USS Athens]

Providence-class carrier/destroyers are not built to lan on Republic Venator-class Star Destroyer landing strips, infact they are not built to land, except on specialy built landing strips. Think about it, why would the CIS build a ship that can land on Republic landing strips? Venators and land everywhere.

That's not my point. My point is that any SW ship hull (varying on ship type), is significantly weaker than their ST ship counterparts.

[TW Scott]

That's not my point. My point is that any SW ship hull (varying on ship type), is significantly weaker than their ST ship counterparts.

We have actually seen the complete opposite of this.

We know that a GCS hull would bend under it's own weight in 1G if not for it structural integrity field. Conversely the Acclamator transport ship can easily land on a 1.1g world and take off again.

The largest Fedetation vessle is 700 meters, the largest SW vessel that is not cassified a space station is 2000 meters. Now even a child can tell you that you need stronger material to build a 2000meter structure than you do a 700 meter structure.

When objects collide with ST vessels they plow deeply in and sometime fly right through the hul without slowing down. When object collide with a SW vessel the explode on the surface like chalk thrown at a brickwall.


Every bit of evidence points to ST having weaker hulls than SW.

[Kittamaru]

I think you should note this was only successfully done a single handfull of times and was considered almost suicide each time. It's the intense gravity of a star that is needed and even then it puts unbearable strain on the vessel. It's never been done outside of the incidents where Mr. Spock was plotting the course.

In other words it's just not something you can repeat on demand.

On an old BoP or a Constellation class, yeah.

For something like an Intrepid, Venture, Nova, or Sovereign (sleeker designs) it probably wouldn't be...

[antaran_1979]

Actually if I remember the episode in question they used warp, but had to plot many minijumps in order not to stress the hull. I am not say they can't, I am just saying it's not something they lightly do. After all stress cracks can build up over time. You might be good doing it 100 times but 101 might be the time the nacelles keep going and leave your ship behind.

no not that episode with the weapons test poligon. i'm talking for the one with the singularity.

They were firing on fighters. Everytime Capship fired on Capship they hit. Capships aiming at Fighter was dicey.

at least 3 HTLs are seen firing from the ISD2, we see one confirmed hit and one confirmed miss )on the Calamaru). the rebels fire several times. one ends up directly in the base of the tower and desroys the ISD2.

Are you telling me you saw no animated crosshairs? You saw no ranging information? You saw now scan information? You saw no HUD? There was just a painted on crosshair in your version of the movie.

i can't read Klingon :P

besides i see crosshair and data info on the tie=fighters and x-wings yet their lasers are fired manualy (fixed mounts). the huds on the modern jets have pipeline and crosshair aiming augments and yet their fixed cannons are still unguided.

[Kittamaru]

We have actually seen the complete opposite of this.

We know that a GCS hull would bend under it's own weight in 1G if not for it structural integrity field. Conversely the Acclamator transport ship can easily land on a 1.1g world and take off again.

Not true in the slightest... proof, Generations. The saucer section of the Ent-D went full bore into the side of a planet with minimal damage, despite having no SIF, no primary OR secondary power, no shields... pretty much, they had some inertial dampeners and some manuvering thrusters left along with minimal impulse. Also, consider that most smaller starship classes can land and take off from planetary bodies at will, and large ships can land and take off with minimal effort. Of course, this is moot point as they have dedicated transports for this, as well as this little wonder called the Transporter...

The largest Fedetation vessle is 700 meters, the largest SW vessel that is not cassified a space station is 2000 meters. Now even a child can tell you that you need stronger material to build a 2000meter structure than you do a 700 meter structure.

Actually, the largest non-station ship, the Executor, was around 17km... Home One is 3km+, as is a Trade Fed battleship... hell, a Mon Cal cruiser is 2300 meters! God Scott, you don't even know the specs on the side you're arguing!

And by the way... V'Ger in Star Trek was NINETY EIGHT kilometers long! 98,000 meters!

When objects collide with ST vessels they plow deeply in and sometime fly right through the hul without slowing down. When object collide with a SW vessel the explode on the surface like chalk thrown at a brickwall.

That just proves that the forward bulkheads of ships in Star Trek are far stronger than the side bulkheads... as it SHOULD be. Think about it... even today - cars collide head on, both take about the same damage. Car t-bones another car - the car that got hit is pretty much gone, the one that hit it takes FAR less damage! This just means ALL the bulkheads on Star Wars ships suck...

Every bit of evidence points to ST having weaker hulls than SW.

I provided a pretty succinct counter to the otherwise...

in red...

[Kittamaru]

Also, Scott, Voyager was suffering no structural damage from the warp jumps she was making... the fact that she was in a goddamned BLACK HOLE might have had SOMETHING to do with it... I want to see, say, an X-wing or a mon-cal cruiser, or even a ISD survive THAT!

[Kittamaru]

These two images show approx what ANY hostile Star Wars ship would encounter in an engagement with the Federation and then Fed / Klingon /Romulan defensive fleets, respectively

[Kittamaru]

All I have to say is... ouch, that would hurt a might bit. That's a LOT of phaser, disruptor, photon, quantum, pulse phaser, and plasma fire... not to mention polaron torpedoes, plasma torpedoes, and other various fun weapons we dont' see used as much

[antaran_1979]

1.The largest Fedetation vessle is 700 meters, the largest SW vessel that is not cassified a space station is 2000 meters. Now even a child can tell you that you need stronger material to build a 2000meter structure than you do a 700 meter structure.

2.When objects collide with ST vessels they plow deeply in and sometime fly right through the hul without slowing down. When object collide with a SW vessel the explode on the surface like chalk thrown at a brickwall.


3.Every bit of evidence points to ST having weaker hulls than SW.

1. even i child can tell you that all that you'll need a cubic-increse of straingt to compensate. in other words a ship 2 times larger in terms of volume will need 8 times stronger construction frame just to retain the same structural strainght as the smaller vessel.
2. when objects explode on impact in SW, they both turn into tiny bits instantly. makes me think SW ships are made of some volatile material.
3.the landing sequence shows the oposite.

[Sardonic Crisis]

I will attempt to revitalize the Dune supremacy in this thread. I read the first 50 pages and then check what was said in the last year in support of Dune; Star Wars and Star Trek proponents have overlooked the Dune universe for quite awhile now it seems.

I bring back up the Holtzman Shields:

A) I compare lazguns with lasers/turbolaser and phasers; all of them operate under the same premise but just in different manners. They operate at different levels of the light spectrum with different energies to power them.

B) Holtzman Shields react negatively when they come into contact with lazguns, it can be deduced that the same principles would apply to phasers or laser/turbolasers. (The idea behind it is that they react at the subatomic level and can cause a like release of energy in either the shield point or the point of fire; the possibility of this can be explained by quantum theory if you wish ie, wave forms and particle forms etc.)

C) At the end of Book 8 the Machine Empire and the Human empire of the Dune Universe are united.

D) Suicide "drone ships" could be sent against either fleet (Star Wars or Star Trek) utilizing Holtzman shielding and draw fire for the specific purpose of destroying the enemy fleets.

This would result in devastating losses to the Star Wars or Star Trek fleets, the machines, of course, can afford the expense due to their propensity for efficiency.

Edit:
There are, of course, benign spectrums of light that are allowed to pass through the shields, otherwise the ship could not see outside of their own shields. The Holtzman shield reaction must only happen with directed beam weapons. Note: A transporter beam would likely fit this category but that is only a conjecture... tell me your thoughts on the possible interaction of transporter beams and holtzman shielding.

[Kittamaru]

Dune would get roasted for one simple reason - Torpedoes. A solid object, fired at high speed, with a warp engine. All systems shutdown upon proximity to the shield - once past the shield, it detonates on bare hull.

And thus ends the Dune debate again

In all honesty, LazGuns would be quickly adapted to and rendered worthless, and their shields would be of no use should, say, a Plasma Torpedo or a Hellbore Cannon impact the ship - those work on the kinetic energy of a high-power implosion to crush the offending ship.