Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Actually Droid soldiers are only as competent as their commanders and do not think creatively, much like borg. Clone troopers are indeed competent warrior and much more capable of a full scale war than anything we have seen in Star Trek. I could provide a comprehensive list but I will make a short summary below.

Star Trek trooper
Weapons: Semi Automatic energy weapon or Shoulder fired grenade launcher. Some races carry bladed weapons as back up, but these races also have tendency to favor reckless charges with melee weapons
Armor: None
Vehicles: Dune buggy type Fast Attack vehicles made for scouting purposes. Light shuttle craft.
Artillery: Mortar based Photon Grenade

Star Wars trooper
Weapons: Fully automatic Light reapeating blasters, blaster rifles, heavy repeating blaster, shoulder fired missile launchers, grenade launchers, flame throwers, Magnacasters and vibroblades.
Armor: Standardized Medium weight environmental armor or Space worthy powered armor
Vehicles: Assorted from Personal Walkers, to mammoth tanks, hover APC's, Speeders, and antistarship cannons. They also have heavily armed landing shuttles.
Artillery: Concussion missles. mortars, and light antiaircraft artillery.


See the difference?

No, but I see the lies:

Trek:
Weapons: Every kind of weapon from hand phasers to isometric disintegrators. Full spread weapons and high power bursts remove the need for most artilliary, as does FULL SIZE FUCKING STARSHIP support. Disruptors, Shoulder mounted photons, and transporter based projectile weapons are also COMMON.

Armor: Energy absorbing armor has been observed in Trek before. Personal shielding and personal cloaking devices, as well as HOLOGRAPHIC cloaks, are commonplace.

Vehicles: Airborne craft of multiple types, ranging from personal shuttles to full sized heavy cruisers (yes, the Akira class is capable of atmospheric Travel AND fighting!) Ground vehicles are less common as they are not necessary in any sense of the word.

Artillery: Photonic morters, photonic rockets, etc. Phasers can make "bombs" out of nearly any ground-based items on higher settings.

In red...

[Kittamaru]

The TK event that destroyed the dinosaurs through nuclear winter was only 1,000 gigatons. Does earth look destroyed to you?



1: This would be a fallacy. Just becuase a device is living does not mean it is superior to what can be created with much harder metals. Would you say a human bone could shatter one made of steel the same size? There are cases where living technology would be superior, but we are so many billions years away from deveoping them it is not funny.

2: Exactly. In Star Wars AI technology is so cheap and plentiful that a ten year old slave can build one. Antigravity technology is so abundant almost everything has it. Finally starships are much like the automobiles of today. Billions of sentients own one or more.

To #2:

While this must be true, but transporters are FAR more time efficient... and just more efficient altogether. Smaller shuttles are like automobiles of today but larger starships (which do usually require some sort of crew) are, for obvious reasons, military purposes only. After all, we know a single starship can OBLITERATE ALL LIFE ON A PLANET. Not something you want in the hands of every civilian.

[Kittamaru]

Okay, to effectively destroy a palnet takes a level of firepower almost unimaginable. Just to break up the gravitational binding energy you would have to provide as the total power as our sun outputs in seven years. Now that is for a slow breakup that could take days. For a faster one like Alderaan it takes much more.

However in "The Omega Directive" Harry Kim's comment was made in a joking manner. Even if that was not true the fact that we never see it destroy the planet puts lie to his statement. Remember dialog means nothing without visuals to back it up.

Prove to me it was joking...

Oh, right, you can't because he was serious.

[Kittamaru]

Okay, to effectively destroy a palnet takes a level of firepower almost unimaginable. Just to break up the gravitational binding energy you would have to provide as the total power as our sun outputs in seven years. Now that is for a slow breakup that could take days. For a faster one like Alderaan it takes much more.

However in "The Omega Directive" Harry Kim's comment was made in a joking manner. Even if that was not true the fact that we never see it destroy the planet puts lie to his statement. Remember dialog means nothing without visuals to back it up.

Also, you just shot yourself in the face:

You just made ALL your EU obsolete- I want visuals to back up EVERY STATEMENT you take from EU. NOW. Or we shall, simply, disregard them!

I plan to post this every time you try to screw around until:

A) you rescind this statement

or

B) you disregard ALL of EU.

[Kittamaru]

As for the AT-AT - according to my friend who's beside me, in the EU books, X-Wings are able to punch their quad lasers thru the neck joints of an AT-AT. They could also simply use a Proton Torpedo to take it out.

The ONLY reason they had so much trouble on Hoth is because the X-Wings couldn't fly in the cold. In Shadows of the Empire, blasters are able to damage AT-AT's, just not severely.

[SkywalkerJedi]

"After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story—however many films it took to tell—was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga."

“Part of the job of the director is to sort of keep everything in line, and I can do that in the movies—but I can't do it on the whole Star Wars universe.”

Finally I have qoutes from George Lucas concering the canon matter. Take a look at this, sorry for the delay.

[SkywalkerJedi]

Two battleships in Trek, the Enterprise and the Scimitar, collided at pretty decent speed. Both ships were still damn near fully operational!

The CIS crashed the Star Destroyer in hyperspace.

[SkywalkerJedi]

Me: SW neutronium would not be real neutronium because of a, b, and c reasons.

You: Star Trek neutronium doesn't act like neutronium, so thus it can't be real either.

Me: Who cares? We aren't talking about Star Trek, we are talking about your claim that they have neutronium hulls, despite evidence to the contrary.

You: DOUBLE STANDARD!!!

Me: ST ships do not use neturonium as a part of their hulls, it doesn't matter if its real neutronium or not, it is irrelevent to the debate.

You: DOUBLE STANDARD.

So yes, you are putting up a smokescreen because you are avoiding my point, while trying to make it appear as if you have one of your own. The same with my Star Wars canon points:

Me: Accoring to quotes I've posted, EU is not canon.

You: Oh yeah? Well, now that Gene is dead, nothing past TNG is canon!

Me: What does that have to do with Star Wars?

You: Hypocrite!

Me: No, Gene didn't hold rights to Star Trek. Paramount does and they're made their position clear. Furthermore, you are ignoring the point. This is about Star Wars, not Star Trek.

You: See everyone? SEE?!1! He's taking Lucas out of context rather than using the black and white evidence that I have not posted. I AM RIGHT!11!!

Wow, that was extreme. I never see him post any of that, well you might be using sybolism. Anyways, please take a look at the new qoute I posted.

[daveeb]

Two battleships in Trek, the Enterprise and the Scimitar, collided at pretty decent speed. Both ships were still damn near fully operational!

To be fair, none of their sweet spots were hit. If the deflector dish were impacted in that ramming sequence, the Enterprise would have exploded, taking the Scimitar with it. See: USS Odyssey vs. Jem'Hadar.

But yes, they were still able to move and stuff. They could at least maintain life on the ships.

Hey guys, what do you think the Voth would be able to do against the Empire? They have really insane technology.

[Hellblade8]

Wow, that was extreme. I never see him post any of that, well you might be using sybolism. Anyways, please take a look at the new qoute I posted.

A bit of satire. I was taking it to the extreme to make a point.

And yes, I will take a look at that quote, because I think I've seen it before, and you might have fogotten something.

[TW Scott]

Actually in Nemesis the Enterprise was crippled, it had maneuvering thrusters only and was short power for phasers and was out of torpedoes. It's shields were pounded to near nonexistance. The Scimitar had suffered 30% shield damage and supposedly some other minor damage. The Enterprise came at the Scimitar at the best speed it could, nearly 700m/s. When Hit the scimitar was already backing up in attempt to avoid collision. The resulting effect speed was as much as 100m/s but quickly slowed to less than 10 m/s a second as both ship took heavy damage and buckling hulls. Even after the crash most of the Scimitar was still operational, but Enterprise was practically dead in the water.

[Hellblade8]

Finally I have qoutes from George Lucas concering the canon matter. Take a look at this, sorry for the delay.

I'm afraid that isn't too clear, could you find something a little less foggy? I can see how you might take it as support for EU+movies, but we have another quote from George in 2001, as opposed to your 1994 quote:

There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe."

It seems to be a parallel universe.

And for a more current (2008) reference:

TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"
LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"
TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"
LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

[TW Scott]

As for thr Voth against the Empire, even with their superior transporters the Voth would quickly lose as they seem to have minimal concept of war and conflict. Their culture revolves around scientific discovery so in all likelihood would not even fight the Empire, but rather just wish to study certain species and technology.

[daveeb]

As for thr Voth against the Empire, even with their superior transporters the Voth would quickly lose as they seem to have minimal concept of war and conflict. Their culture revolves around scientific discovery so in all likelihood would not even fight the Empire, but rather just wish to study certain species and technology.

Well, if they don't fight, then they wouldn't lose. And they sure can run fast. They can traverse 90 light years in seconds. And they sure can scan well. They scanned Voyager from 90 light years away, and could even tell there were 148 life forms on board.

If they were forced into battle, they could just shut down the Empire's weapon system by, to put it in simple terms, hacking. If the Jedi were to get on a Voth vessel, they would be forced to use Force only, as the Voth dampening field would shut down their lightsabers.

I guess they wouldn't win, per se, but they would survive. And surviving against the Empire is plenty imo.

And their race does not revolve around scientific discovery. It resolves around doctrine. In fact, scientific discovery was talked down upon during a hearing.

[SkywalkerJedi]

I'm afraid that isn't too clear, could you find something a little less foggy? I can see how you might take it as support for EU+movies, but we have another quote from George in 2001, as opposed to your 1994 quote:

My qoute is in the Augest/September 1991 Issue of Star Wars: Insider. It clearly states that he don't have control over the whole Star Wars Universe, he only have control over the Lucasfilm movies, Howard Roffoman and other liciencing people does.

It seems to be a parallel universe.

Yes, a G-Canon universe and C-Canon universe

And for a more current (2008) reference:

They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"

After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story - however many films it took to tell - was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today it is an amazing, if unexpected, legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga.

Part of the job of the director is to sort of keep everything in line, and I can do that in the movies—but I can't do it on the whole Star Wars universe.

[Hellblade8]

My qoute is in the Augest/September 1991 Issue of Star Wars: Insider. It clearly states that he don't have control over the whole Star Wars Universe, he only have control over the Lucasfilm movies, Howard Roffoman and other liciencing people does.

I apologize for my mistake, I was guessing at the the time frame.

Yes, a G-Canon universe and C-Canon universe

YES!

You got it!

What we are debating is the G-canon only universe (actually, I think Clone Wars cartoon is also in there, but isn't G-Canon, but T-Canon). We don't do EU because that isn't the world that Lucas dreamed of, and is generally full of issues that cause more problems than it solves.

Star Trek has the same thing; it has two (well, three, I think Shatner has his own) worlds. The TV and movies, which is canon, and the other stuff.

[Kittamaru]

Actually in Nemesis the Enterprise was crippled, it had maneuvering thrusters only and was short power for phasers and was out of torpedoes. It's shields were pounded to near nonexistance. The Scimitar had suffered 30% shield damage and supposedly some other minor damage. The Enterprise came at the Scimitar at the best speed it could, nearly 700m/s. When Hit the scimitar was already backing up in attempt to avoid collision. The resulting effect speed was as much as 100m/s but quickly slowed to less than 10 m/s a second as both ship took heavy damage and buckling hulls. Even after the crash most of the Scimitar was still operational, but Enterprise was practically dead in the water.

100m/s... uh, no

The SCIMITAR went HARD TO PORT... not Reverse. Watch the movie if you don't believe me, but in the interum -

T minus 2 minutes, 0 seconds: Everyone starts to notice, out of the new bridge window, that the Scimitar is just hovering in front of them. Deanna asks "what's he doing?", and Picard figures out that Shinzon "wants to look me in the eye. We've got him! He thinks he knows exactly what I'm going to do."
T minus 1 minute, 29 seconds: Picard: "Geordi, divert all power to the engines. Take it from life support if you have to . . . give me everything you've got."
T minus 1 minute, 21 seconds: One of the bridge chatterers says "Impulse power capability's been restored." A moment later, Geordi reports "Ready, Captain."
T minus 1 minute, 4 seconds: Shinzon, having hailed the ship, asks Picard: "Don't you think it's time to surrender? Why should the rest of your crew have to die?"
T minus 36 seconds: "Engage."
T minus 27 seconds: The Enterprise-E, battered but unbroken, begins sliding toward the Scimitar.
T minus 14 seconds: Shinzon, at first looking confused but now seemingly amazed, orders "Hard to port!" to no avail.

Impact.

A minute and 23 seconds later, Shinzon orders "Divert all power to the engines . . . full reverse". The ships separate.

[Kittamaru]

There are 3 or 4 worlds in Trek:

Star Trek TOS, TNG, Enterprise, Voyager, DS9 + a few official books that are few and far between + all the movies

Star Trek: Book lines

Star Trek: Shatner book lines

Star Trek: Other Books

[Kittamaru]

I also see that Scott ignored my post... time to repost it

Okay, to effectively destroy a palnet takes a level of firepower almost unimaginable. Just to break up the gravitational binding energy you would have to provide as the total power as our sun outputs in seven years. Now that is for a slow breakup that could take days. For a faster one like Alderaan it takes much more.

However in "The Omega Directive" Harry Kim's comment was made in a joking manner. Even if that was not true the fact that we never see it destroy the planet puts lie to his statement. Remember dialog means nothing without visuals to back it up.

Also, you just shot yourself in the face:

You just made ALL your EU obsolete- I want visuals to back up EVERY STATEMENT you take from EU. NOW. Or we shall, simply, disregard them!

I plan to post this every time you try to screw around until:

A) you rescind this statement

or

B) you disregard ALL of EU.

[antaran_1979]

Actually in Nemesis the Enterprise was crippled, it had maneuvering thrusters only and was short power for phasers and was out of torpedoes. It's shields were pounded to near nonexistance. The Scimitar had suffered 30% shield damage and supposedly some other minor damage. The Enterprise came at the Scimitar at the best speed it could, nearly 700m/s. When Hit the scimitar was already backing up in attempt to avoid collision. The resulting effect speed was as much as 100m/s but quickly slowed to less than 10 m/s a second as both ship took heavy damage and buckling hulls. Even after the crash most of the Scimitar was still operational, but Enterprise was practically dead in the water.

i remember waching that scene for the first time. right untill then i was disapointed from the tactic UFP and the Romulans used, as well as their opperational capabilities. but then came the ramming sequence. allmost disabled Sovereign class rammed a nearly fully functional uber-ship and fared far better. they lost nothing but the power reserve they invested intoo that impulse burst and they caused severe damage to the Scimitar. and Shinzon turned out to be strangely incompetent. instead of full reverse he ordered hard to port??? maybe the Scimitar has a design flaw. we see them doing reverse after their exhaust pops up from the ship, is it possible that such a god-ship can't reverse during tactical engagements??? or did they take some damage to their RCSs when E-E fired all those weapons on the fore hull??