Star Wars vs Star Trek

[antaran_1979]

The field containing the antimatter would be generated by equipment surrounding it. This equipment would be vulnerable to charged particles (ions) since they electronic devices. Even if the magnetic flux return path surrounded the devices (and the power cables were not exposed) a stream of ions would interfere with the field requiring corrective action that the field generator may not be able to sustain. If even a small amount of the antimatter escaped the field, the machinery would be damaged... releasing the rest!

not likely. even in our days we have magnetic bottles and those are used to contain fusion plasma (100000-10000000 degrees kelvin). we know that ion guns in SW cause no damage to the ships at all, so they must be far weaker then that. thus the magnetic containment provides its own protection agains ion weapons. Voyager was in a level 7-8 ion storm (magnitude that causes hull stress/damage) and did not loose anti-matter containement!
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ion_storm
so it is safe to say SW ion guns are not of much use against UFP ships. they are usefull against D12 bird of pray though, the one with the defective plasma coils.

[antaran_1979]

Wrong, there are no Mon Cal cruisers, they are frigates, freighters or transports.
Does this look like a Mon Cal crusier to you?

That is called a transport
]

do these look like transports to you?

[Saquist]

can you tell me what episode was that? i'd like to wach it.

He can't tell you because it dosen't say that in any episode. He's farting again.

[SkywalkerJedi]

do these look like transports to you?

There was two Mon Calmiri Crusiers present and one is destroyed by the Death Star blast.

[SkywalkerJedi]

not likely. even in our days we have magnetic bottles and those are used to contain fusion plasma (100000-10000000 degrees kelvin). we know that ion guns in SW cause no damage to the ships at all, so they must be far weaker then that. thus the magnetic containment provides its own protection agains ion weapons. Voyager was in a level 7-8 ion storm (magnitude that causes hull stress/damage) and did not loose anti-matter containement!
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Ion_storm
so it is safe to say SW ion guns are not of much use against UFP ships. they are usefull against D12 bird of pray though, the one with the defective plasma coils.

They can be used as Plasma weapons too.

[SkywalkerJedi]

A nice try, but you make several errors. The first is that a a million on the way is a very vaque comment. We have no idea how long she meant. A million could have been the next ten years for all we know. And it makes another problem because if they couild build 1 million troops, in those four years, it means they should have at least two million ready. Thus at best, we can assume that those millions were the rest of the order. Thus, we can assume 250,000 clones per year, assuming they were finishing up the other batches.

The Grand Army of the Republic got the one million after the initial engadments. Acording to that qoute, they only have 200,000 troops ready, the grow a batch per year, and their faclities got bigger and bigger. There were more then 2 million troops in action by the forth year. Acording to my calculations they gpt 499500000 per year. Don't forget, that is by one system.

In any case, that would be 250,000 divided by 50 = 5,000 per year. That would be multiplied by four, which takes us to 20,000 starships per four years.

Assuming the Empire for some reason decided to build up its fleet for about 20 years, that would be 100,000 starships.

There is a problem 499500000 divided by 50 is 9990000 ships per year, they are all built by Kuat Drive Yards and Rothana Heavy Enginering, thats only two ship yards. The Empire's ships are from Rothana Heavy Enginering, Kuat Drive Yards, but on a bigger scale since the Imperial Navy is built on a intergalactic scale.

And Sky, your calculation is absurd. There is no reason to build up that large of an army, especially since we know that the SW races are easily kept in line. I mean c'mon, a Jedi order, even assuming thousands of Jedi, was easily strong enough to keep most of the races in line under Republic Law. In fact, look at the Sentate in the prequals. There are at best, only five thousand pods there, and even assuming two races per pod (yeah right), that's at best 10,000 races that serve under the Republic. Taht's a amazingly low population for an entire galaxy full of life.

The Grand Army of the Republic need a huge army to counter the alot larger CIS army. " We are keepers of the peace, not soilders"-Mace Windu, and the Jedi Order is too small to take the whole CIS, and to keep sercuity at the same time. Yes there is two races per pod, Gungans and Naboo, Quarren and Mon Calmiri for example. Not the whole Galaxy joined the Republic, but most of them did, and 10,000 is senient beings, and there is more in Chiss Space.

Thus, a million or two soldiers would be enough to ensure a iron fisted ruler.

For the Empire, they have the Rebel troble. For the Republic they have CIS troble.

[Hellblade8]

They can be used as Plasma weapons too.

So? The Romulans have been using plasma weapons for almost a century.

[SkywalkerJedi]

You mean the ones found on moons? You do realize, that neutronium requires an immense level of gravity in order to cease from decaying don't you? And that in order for it to have been on a starship, the inhabitants would be crushed within seconds? Of course, even assuming SW scientists (if you can call them that) could have found away around it, then why was it found on a moon, instead of a Neutron Star? And if it was there from a ship that crashed of some such, why hadn't it decayed? And if the moon had sufficient gravity in order to stop it from decaying, why pray tell wasn't Han a smudge on the surface the moment he stepped foot on it?

And since pray tell, was neutronium hulls part of canon? Oh, that's right. They aren't.

They don't say what their hull is made out of.

That's kamikaze fighter was moving at high speeds, and is more than enough to cause a shit load of damage if it rammed into something. Not to mention, the ship's shield were down.




Yes, because ISD ships have been so effective in warding off rammings. Like in Return of the Jedi, where the bridge shields weren't taken down, and the fighter didn't ram into the bridge, thus causing it to spiral out of control and explode upon impact once hitting the Death Star.

The SSD's shields aren't on when the fighter ramed, again from overestimation. The Death Star took no damage from the 20 KM long SSD.

[SkywalkerJedi]

So? The Romulans have been using plasma weapons for almost a century.

Star Wars used them for more then a centry, unlike the Federation ( Acording to Voyager, I forgot the name of the episoide )

[SkywalkerJedi]

Really now? Because the only thing we see those things hit are ISDs, which in fact, can only put out a megaton and a half with their heavy turbo lasers. Not to mention that you are again, comparing sizes as if they actually ment something between two sci-fi. In fact, Star Trek openly defies that when it stated that the new Defiant warpcore was just as powerful as the Galaxy warpcore.

The one that blown up the astroid is a long range turbolaser, it is about the strengh as a medium or lighter turbolaser. If you want proof, the HTLs are on the side and the Long Range TL are on the front, the shot was fired from the front.

[Hellblade8]

The Grand Army of the Republic got the one million after the initial engadments. Acording to that qoute, they only have 200,000 troops ready, the grow a batch per year, and their faclities got bigger and bigger. There were more then 2 million troops in action by the forth year. Acording to my calculations they gpt 499500000 per year. Don't forget, that is by one system.

And yet, you again fail to grasp the logic here. They could not have grown another million by the 4th year, since it took them ten years to grow a million of them. Even if we were to assume that the other million just weren't ready for some reason, that's still only a 100,000 clone troops per year.

There is no reason, or evidence to conclude that the Empire would have massive numbers in their military.

Given how things were going, a second batch was likely started three years into the first one, and was likely put into the army during the third year of the Clone Wars.

In fact, during the war we see that their ground forces aren't all that high. In fact, in the initial beginnings of the war on geonosis (or whaterver), two hundred thousand troopers were considered an overwhelming force that rolled over the CIS's troops.

There is a problem 499500000 divided by 50 is 9990000 ships per year, they are all built by Kuat Drive Yards and Rothana Heavy Enginering, thats only two ship yards. The Empire's ships are from Rothana Heavy Enginering, Kuat Drive Yards, but on a bigger scale since the Imperial Navy is built on a intergalactic scale.

Your calculation is flawed Sky. First of all, you assume that the empire needs to have a massive building for a fleet for no apparent reason. Why pray tell, would the Empire need a massive fleet? At best, they have a few thousand species within their galaxy, and they apparently don't have massive occupation programs. We saw no warships over Alderaan or Tatooine. In fact, throughout the series, we've never seen them occupy a planet. This must mean that occupation forces are not often organized for the Galactic Empire.

Thus, the races of the Empire must be rather docile, or low tech, since Naboo itself only displayed fighters as its only source of planetary defenses.

The Grand Army of the Republic need a huge army to counter the alot larger CIS army. " We are keepers of the peace, not soilders"-Mace Windu, and the Jedi Order is too small to take the whole CIS, and to keep sercuity at the same time.

The fact that the Jedi Order was able to keep peace is again, pointing to a docile society. The Jedi themselves were easily obliterated by Order 66. Assuming the Republic had a million soldiers, each leading 50 soldiers, that would put it down to twenty thousand Jedi Knights. That's an insanly small number for the Jedi Order to exist in, and able to keep the peace.

Yes there is two races per pod, Gungans and Naboo, Quarren and Mon Calmiri for example. Not the whole Galaxy joined the Republic, but most of them did, and 10,000 is senient beings, and there is more in Chiss Space.

And thus, you prove my point. That Empire, is likely only five times larger as the UFP, which at best holds two thousand planets. And sadly enough, the gungans and Naboo are from the same planet, so that isn't really much of a point for your part. A better example would have been the Aldeeran senator and the Naboo senator.

And even given this, that's still a very low number. Given that twenty thousand Jedi were able to keep the peace, then a million soldiers would easily constitute as a grand army.

And Sky, you forget that the Chiss aren't part of George's World, they are part of EU. EU is not canon. We've been over this.

For the Empire, they have the Rebel troble. For the Republic they have CIS troble.

Problem is, the Rebels weren't a large force. Indeed, their large fleet consisted of perhaps only 20-40 starships at best. Not only this, but they had inferior firepower against a small fleet of ISDs, as stated by Admiral Ackabar. It wasn't that the Empire was having trouble military wise, it was the fact that the Rebels were hard to find that made them such a problem. The Rebels could target Imperial installations, which was next to public knowledge, save for the secret stuff, while the Empire had to search for Rebel bases.

In fact, in both cases, the Rebel base comprised only of fighters and transport ships to defend themselves, save for perhaps a ground based ion cannon.

As for the CIS and the Republic, we've been through that. The republic at best, had two million soldiers created, and at least half of them must have been lost. Logically, only the need for restoring the lost troops would be needed.

Sky, I know this is hard to get at your age, but the Empire wouldn't just build up their army for no reason. It doesn't matter what sci-fi we're talking about; maintaining a military is expensive, and building a larger one and maintaining it without need is a sinkhole for money. In fact, the Death Star itself proves this point. It was there to end all forms of rebellion and a need for the Imperial Navy.

[Hellblade8]

They don't say what their hull is made out of.

Scott is claiming something from EU again. Neutronium is basicly something you find in a Neutron Star, and is tough enough that asteriods would be like water droplets against the hull of a tank. Not to mention that it's already been proven not to be neutronium in the way it's described.

The SSD's shields aren't on when the fighter ramed, again from overestimation.

Yes, they were taken down because one of the bridge shield generators were destroyed, which are the large sphere things. This allowed the fighter to ram into the bridge.

The Death Star took no damage from the 20 KM long SSD.

And? This was a shield generated by a ground base shield generator. And besides, the Death Star is immensly large, and the explosion we wittnessed was fairly strange, in that it was just vaporized, but everything else was left realtively undamaged.

[Hellblade8]

The one that blown up the astroid is a long range turbolaser, it is about the strengh as a medium or lighter turbolaser. If you want proof, the HTLs are on the side and the Long Range TL are on the front, the shot was fired from the front.

*sigh*

Yes, and that blast calculated into kiloton level, ranging from about ten to about five hundred kilotons. What I'm talking about is from the Revenge of the Sith Novel, where it was stated that the bolts in the sky had the power to vaporize a planet. Since heavy turbo bolts are the only things large enough to be seen from that distance, that would be them. This would be about 1.5 megatons, which is an exceptionally high level explosion.

Unfortuantely for the Empire, the UFP's photon torpedo is about a hundred times stronger.

[SkywalkerJedi]

And yet, you again fail to grasp the logic here. They could not have grown another million by the 4th year, since it took them ten years to grow a million of them. Even if we were to assume that the other million just weren't ready for some reason, that's still only a 100,000 clone troops per year.

Here is a logical solusion. You don't grow only one batch and wait for it to be full grown ( about 10 years ) to grow another. You grow a batch, then you start another batch as soon as possible ( half a year to a year ). All 2 million are ready by the third or forth year.

There is no reason, or evidence to conclude that the Empire would have massive numbers in their military.

Yes there is, the Imperial Navy built their forces intergalactic wide, insted of by two companies and one system.

In fact, during the war we see that their ground forces aren't all that high. In fact, in the initial beginnings of the war on geonosis (or whaterver), two hundred thousand troopers were considered an overwhelming force that rolled over the CIS's troops.

The CIS have alot more troops then the Republic. The Republic will be overwhelmed if it wasn't for their trooop's skills and arment and the Navy.

Your calculation is flawed Sky. First of all, you assume that the empire needs to have a massive building for a fleet for no apparent reason. Why pray tell, would the Empire need a massive fleet? At best, they have a few thousand species within their galaxy, and they apparently don't have massive occupation programs. We saw no warships over Alderaan or Tatooine. In fact, throughout the series, we've never seen them occupy a planet. This must mean that occupation forces are not often organized for the Galactic Empire.

They need them for the Rebellion, the Rebellion is still a worthy foe.

Thus, the races of the Empire must be rather docile, or low tech, since Naboo itself only displayed fighters as its only source of planetary defenses.

Naboo is a very very peacful system, and under the protection of the Republic and the Jedi Order. They never fought a war before Phantom Menece. They are strongly Republic Loyalists

The fact that the Jedi Order was able to keep peace is again, pointing to a docile society. The Jedi themselves were easily obliterated by Order 66. Assuming the Republic had a million soldiers, each leading 50 soldiers, that would put it down to twenty thousand Jedi Knights. That's an insanly small number for the Jedi Order to exist in, and able to keep the peace.

Yes, I know that. They have small numbers, because One apprentice per Master. They have the support of the senate.

And thus, you prove my point. That Empire, is likely only five times larger as the UFP, which at best holds two thousand planets. And sadly enough, the gungans and Naboo are from the same planet, so that isn't really much of a point for your part. A better example would have been the Aldeeran senator and the Naboo senator.

And even given this, that's still a very low number. Given that twenty thousand Jedi were able to keep the peace, then a million soldiers would easily constitute as a grand army.

Nope, they have the CIS problem to take care of. Jedi are defeated at the temple because they let them in, unaware of Skywalker's fall to the dark side.

And Sky, you forget that the Chiss aren't part of George's World, they are part of EU. EU is not canon. We've been over this.

Chiss Space is mentioned in Clone Wars and Anakin have been to Chiss space.

In fact, in both cases, the Rebel base comprised only of fighters and transport ships to defend themselves, save for perhaps a ground based ion cannon.

They have a fleet of Mon Calmiri Crusiers and Frigates, the Crusiers are only a little bit less powerful then the ISD

As for the CIS and the Republic, we've been through that. The republic at best, had two million soldiers created, and at least half of them must have been lost. Logically, only the need for restoring the lost troops would be needed.

Yes, ship losses are light because the Star Destroyers can destroy most CIS ships with only a little risk.

Sky, I know this is hard to get at your age, but the Empire wouldn't just build up their army for no reason. It doesn't matter what sci-fi we're talking about; maintaining a military is expensive, and building a larger one and maintaining it without need is a sinkhole for money. In fact, the Death Star itself proves this point. It was there to end all forms of rebellion and a need for the Imperial Navy

They set a army to keep people in line. They did it to try to take the whole galaxy.

[SkywalkerJedi]

Scott is claiming something from EU again. Neutronium is basicly something you find in a Neutron Star, and is tough enough that asteriods would be like water droplets against the hull of a tank. Not to mention that it's already been proven not to be neutronium in the way it's described.

That is not true, the shields never decayed.

Yes, they were taken down because one of the bridge shield generators were destroyed, which are the large sphere things. This allowed the fighter to ram into the bridge.

The shield generators got destroyed becuase it wasn't protected by any shielding.

And? This was a shield generated by a ground base shield generator. And besides, the Death Star is immensly large, and the explosion we wittnessed was fairly strange, in that it was just vaporized, but everything else was left realtively undamaged.

The generator was taken out when the SSD rammed.

[SkywalkerJedi]

*sigh*

Yes, and that blast calculated into kiloton level, ranging from about ten to about five hundred kilotons. What I'm talking about is from the Revenge of the Sith Novel, where it was stated that the bolts in the sky had the power to vaporize a planet. Since heavy turbo bolts are the only things large enough to be seen from that distance, that would be them. This would be about 1.5 megatons, which is an exceptionally high level explosion.

Unfortuantely for the Empire, the UFP's photon torpedo is about a hundred times stronger.

The Heavy Turbolaser don't have that range, it must be Long Range Turbolasers, they are very big too. You just said that Long Range Turbolasers can vaporize a planet.

[Saquist]

There was two Mon Calmiri Crusiers present and one is destroyed by the Death Star blast.

Um...Skywalker you know that this Death Star Attack happend before the Executor went down right...

That screen cap from Antaran shows two more Mon Calmari ships...so there were at least three.

[Saquist]

INFACT...going through the Battle there were up to 5 Mon Calmari ships...(big ones ) on screen at one time. A dozen or so seen in different clips and at the end definitely a dozen big ships...but class can't be distingished quite as well on the U tube version...And HD pic will have to be made.

It makes more sense but not much as they were up against more than 25 Star Destroyers. I would have ordered the retreat if I only had two captial ships...

So there were a minimum of 7 mon cal ships. 5 seen on screen when the captain of Executor orders an increase in fire power and the two that were destroyed early in the fight.

[Hellblade8]

The Heavy Turbolaser don't have that range, it must be Long Range Turbolasers, they are very big too. You just said that Long Range Turbolasers can vaporize a planet.

A) I meant town, a small town at that. A mistake on my part (it would take a vastly greater amount than a megaton and a half to vaporize a planet).

B) No I didn't. Stop putting words into my mouth. I said nothing about long range turbo lasers. I was talking about HTLs.

[Hellblade8]

That is not true, the shields never decayed.

SKy, keep up here.

Neutronium is something that exists in a Neutron Star. A Neutron Star has an immense gravitational field only rivaled by a black hole. Basicly, if you get stuck in it, you're going to be compressed to the size of an atom.

In order for a starship to carry this around, they'd need to have a gravitational field like that of a neutron star, which would kill everyone inside, and crush everything within the ship...thus being pointless.

Assuming they used technobabble to get around this, that would still leave us to wonder why the neutronium armor didn't decay when it was on the moon. Either the neutronium alloy was a natural part of the moon, in which case, the moon should have killed Han when he arrived, or it was left there by an artificial source, in which case, it should have decayed.

Because it did neither, it is not neutronium.

The shield generators got destroyed becuase it wasn't protected by any shielding.

Which is stupid.

Only an idiot would put their shield generators OUTSIDE of the ship and the shields.

The generator was taken out when the SSD rammed.

I'm very sure it was taken out before. That's why the ramming WORKED. And if it was as you describe,that only furthers the level of stupidity in the Empire, or a lack of defense agianst solid objects.