Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

However power is. Imperial Star Destroyers have NO weakspot in their shielding to exploit. Thus advantage ISD.




Actually in ST the ships are moving at speeds the viewer can easily see and in fact the ships computers often miss a vessel moving at a slight angle at less than 1000 meters per second. So Obviously ST has at least as many problems targeting as you claim SW has.



under Lucasfilm canon policy yes they are. SUCK IT UP!

1) Uh, no weak spot... yet a fucking asteroid blew your bridge tower to dust...

2) Actually, in ST, a lot of times that phasers miss (which, to be honest, is nowhere NEAR as often as you state) is due to them fighting FAR smaller ships and often it's the enemy missing as well! If you haven't noticed, unlike in Star Wars, ships in Trek DO take damage and the damage they take DOES have an effect on their combat ability... if your targetting array gets blown to hell, you have to do it all manually... why you claim Wars can still target without said array blows my mind.

3) Lucasfilm canon policy is NOT George Lucas canon policy. Follow the master, not his petty servants, you savant.

[Kittamaru]

Incorrect. In "Who Mourns for Morn." we know that simple Ion storms that are not even a threat to our space shuttle can destroy shielded vessels with ease. on Voyager we saw a palnet armed with light ion cannons that could effect Voyager with EMP like effects. Ion cannons can effect shields and lectromagnetic fields of all kinds. Imagine what would happen in Antimatter storage. Ion cannons carried by ISD put out more power than the Warp core of a Galaxy Class Starships. Finally wires are much safer than the plasma conduits that explode all the time in Star trek.

You keep stating they put out this kind of power, yet you have yet to even TRY to prove it, while we have, multiple times, proven a HAND PHASER has more power than your fucking heavy turbo lasers! Get your head out of your ass or move along.

As for the ion cannons affecting voyager - it's a SCOUT SHIP, lost in the DELTA QUADRENT, with NO WAY to make repairs for serious damage it's taken how many times? Fire those same Ion Cannons at, say, the Ent-E, and it'd LAUGH at you. No, really, the ship will grow a mouth JUST to laugh at your stupid ass! I bet even Picard would stand up and flip you the bird!

Wires are safer, yes... but sadly they are terribly inefficent. They loose power to heat thanks to resistance, are cut easily, difficult to repair as the break is NEVER obvious, and, oh yeah, an EMP can fuck them over many many times. An EMP on an energetic plasma is... well, it doesn't really do ANYTHING.

Also, I want canon proof from that episode - post screencaps or parts of the script so I can look into this further, as I do not believe for a second what you are saying... we've seen the Ent-E fly thru stuff far far worse than an Ion storm... you sure you aren't thinking METREON storms?

[antaran_1979]

1.Okay, sorry about my delay in posting. I have real life issues to deal with. You know real life, that thing that happens away form the forums.

2. We know a Photon Torpedo is many times more powerful than a phaser but they never have roasted a planets atmosphere. in fact we have seen many times full power phaser strikes used to destroy things in atmosphere without igniting it.
3. Finally, if a 1,000+ gigatons explosion on Earth did not flash fry the atmosphere the energy needed to vaporize 30,000 cubic meters is not going to either.

1. understandable, some of us have jobs and stuff
2. the torpedo VS phaser is a strange case. so far i've never seen a debate that can clear this up. it makes my Bridge Commander moding hard as hell. i guess the nature of the weapons is so diferent that the comparisson is dificult.
3. "Legacy" and "Inheritance" presume that 20-30% phaser destroys (out of existance) 8.3 million cubic meters per second. so a 100% phaser (ventral array), woul anihilate 24-40 million cubic meters of rock per second (page 481). however we see no heet emissions during the drilling, no blasts. so maybe they won't destroy the atmosphere by shockwaves, but by some sort of chain reaction.

[antaran_1979]

Okay Star trek and Speed.

We all know that maximum impulse on Star trek vessels is quite fast. This is a given as we have seen the ships move quickly out of combat. However save for the Defiant and TOS Enterprise we have not seen any vessel move more than ten times it's own length per second in combat. In fact the average seems to be 4200m/second to 6400m/second. Which is still damn fast, but is not even a real significant fraction of C. Now since we have not seen it in combat there must be some limitation in combat or combat thinking that keeps the being in Star trek from moving any faster while they are firing. Remeber the visuals of ST are canon, everything else is just BS.

on screen evidence for ST battle speed is very diverse and contradictive. still they apear far faster then the ships in SW and even far more nimble. most importantly they never missed anything larger then a light cruiser. seing how ISDs are 1600m and Calamari Cruisers are 1200m long, and yet they miss eachother when they are motionless relative to each other, acuracy favors UFP.

[antaran_1979]

Incorrect. In "Who Mourns for Morn." we know that simple Ion storms that are not even a threat to our space shuttle can destroy shielded vessels with ease. on Voyager we saw a palnet armed with light ion cannons that could effect Voyager with EMP like effects. Ion cannons can effect shields and lectromagnetic fields of all kinds. Imagine what would happen in Antimatter storage. Ion cannons carried by ISD put out more power than the Warp core of a Galaxy Class Starships. Finally wires are much safer than the plasma conduits that explode all the time in Star trek.

and yet in Nemesis, an ion storm is under way, and it will render transporters useless but not threaten the shuttle or the ship????!!!

[Hellblade8]

However power is. Imperial Star Destroyers have NO weakspot in their shielding to exploit. Thus advantage ISD.

You mean despite the fact that they put the shield generators for their fighter bays on the outside of their ships? Actually, they do that with their bridge generators...wow, I guess the Trade Federation was pretty smart, at least they put it inside the ship.

Actually in ST the ships are moving at speeds the viewer can easily see and in fact the ships computers often miss a vessel moving at a slight angle at less than 1000 meters per second. So Obviously ST has at least as many problems targeting as you claim SW has.

Unfortuantely, the fct of the matter is that UFP ships move at exceptionally high speeds (it isn't really shown real well on screen, but given that they actually want us to see it, this is understandable, same with SW ships).

And while there are misses in Trek, at least they go to the trouble of using targeting computers, rather than having some bloke make a bunch of shots for good luck.

under Lucasfilm canon policy yes they are. SUCK IT UP!

Scott? I have a PM draft in a Microsoft Word Document explaining the canon situation to a Moderator, as well as the evidence to back myself up. If you insist upon butchering the english language with your bullshit, I will pm one, and ask for them to finally lay down the law for you.

Only the movies (and possibly the TV shows, there have been some new and interesting quotes on that) are canon.

Your eclipse and sun crusher belong in the same cesspool as Stardestroyer.com.

[Hellblade8]

One problem shithead...

In Star Trek: TOS, Scotty said, quite plainly, that the Enterprise (NCC-1701... not A-E...) had the phaser power to punch thru the planetary defense shields. HOWEVER, doing so would VAPORIZE the ENTIRE ATMOSPHERE of the planet.

It was said.

IN CANNON

What you like to think

MEANS ABSOLUTELY DICK

To be fair, it could be an interaction effect with the shield grid.

Of course, that would be an interesting theory to test out on an SW theater shield.

[Hellblade8]

And what's the big fuss about Ion Cannons and Ion Storms?

Of course they can cause problems for starships, but that's because they do so do to how impulse engines work; they use ionized gas as part of their propulsion. Getting caught in that could easily cause a feedback loop that would blow off your impulse engines. Say hellow to a nintey megaton explosion at point blank range.

And as far as ion cannons vs ST ships...that's kinda hard to prove that they'd be useful. You see, we have no idea how powerful ion storms are; most likel they're technobabble storms that are the equal to an old earth storm. To equate them to Ion cannons is silly because you'd need to prove that ion cannons are anywhere near strong enough to cause a UFP ship any problems, since Ie, it takes a high level ion storm to bother a starship (some sort of Voyager episode made mention of this).

And in ST:10, all we saw was that it would be an issue for transport. Furthermore, to help prove my idea of problems only via impulse engines, the shuttle thing that Picard, Worf, and Data used had a different sort of propulsion, not the standard impulse engines.

Isn't learning about stuff fun?

[TW Scott]

JULIANA
I'm going to monitor the density
of the rock layers and adjust the
strength of the particle beam as
we go. That should minimize the
seismic stress we generate while
we're drilling.

Geordi approaches from another part of Engineering.

GEORDI
(to Data)
I've configured the phasers to
create the most highly focused
particle beam possible.

DATA
Thank you, Geordi.

that certainly doesn't sound like a 20 to 30% power shot to me. And 19 second to drill a hole through rock 8km deep and one meter in radius is still not as impressive as ESB.

DATA
The drilling process has raised
the temperature inside the magma
pocket by almost three hundred
degrees C. It will be several
hours before it cools enough for
us to enter.

Certainly seems like some heat is produced.

[TW Scott]

and yet in Nemesis, an ion storm is under way, and it will render transporters useless but not threaten the shuttle or the ship????!!!

Actually that was the SOTA flagship of the Federation, and a Captain's Yacht, which is equivalent to a runabout, also SOTA at the moment. it was also classified as WEAK ion storm. It still does not dispute the facts of "Who Mourns for Morn."

[TW Scott]

on screen evidence for ST battle speed is very diverse and contradictive. still they apear far faster then the ships in SW and even far more nimble. most importantly they never missed anything larger then a light cruiser. seing how ISDs are 1600m and Calamari Cruisers are 1200m long, and yet they miss eachother when they are motionless relative to each other, acuracy favors UFP.

Actually it is not contradictive. In EVERY battle ships faly at most ten times their own lenthe per second with the notable exception of Defiant and TOS Enterprise (in one episode). Also the Bird of Prey in Generation missed the slow and straight moving Enterprise D several times. In fact in battles you will see that phasers miss at least as often as they hit in ST and Photon torpedoes are lucky to have a 33% hit probabilty most days. Exceptions do exist but over all ST vessels miss more often than they Appear to in SW.


As for your assertions on the vesels in SW they ships don't appear to move as quickly becuase the battle is much larger and unlike Startrek we are looking at most battles from a fighters perspective. However it is clear in ROTJ and ROTS that the capshisp are pulling 3200m/s, it's just you are viewing them from a vessel pull 6400m/s to 10000 m/s and are looking at a much larger battle.

Hell, when the SSD Exectutioner made it's nose dive into the deathstar it moved it's lenght in a second. on the short side that 12+km/s.

And except for the opening scene of ANH, i have yet to see a Capital Ship misswhen firing on another capital ship. Yes they do miss a lot when they are targeting the fighters, but they are MUCH smaller than Federtaion vessels, much more maneuverable and at least as fast tactically from what we have witnessed.

[Hellblade8]

Here is the strategy I posted long time ago.

Which I debunked as being not only barely strategic, but also impossible since they don't know where Vulcan or Earth is, or that they're important.

Neither way, Republic and CIS wins.

Either way, no 'n'. Otherwise, that sentence doesn't make a lick of sense.

If they chose to use all their efforts to defend this solar system, they will lose Vulcan and other worlds and starbases.

You face multiple problems here. You assume you can take these systems. Even Deep Space Nine, an old Cardassian mining facility, was upgraded to withstand anything short of a large dominion fleet. In fact, it stood up to about forty or so Klingons ships, and the station still managed to get her shields back up before major hull damage was done, contained boarding parties, and could still return fire. Not to mention it had 5,000 photon torpedoes, and the UFP considered it to be a 'small' station.

Now imagine what real UFP station could do. Keep in mind, that as the Constitution class have shown us, there is only so far you can upgrade old hardware, and that the new stuff is still better than an upgraded old one. Thus, DS9 is likely to fall behing anywhere from 20-40% of where any normal Federation starbase would.

Now, we know that the Enterprise D had about a one gigaton shield grid (likely did at some point, they got a refit just before she was destroyed), and we know that Star bases have a lot higher shield than that of a starship.

Now, in order to take down a low GT level shielding grid, we'd need for UFP weapons to be around the level to take down such firepower. Interesting enough, using G2k's 100 megaton calculation, that would place mean that about ten torpedoes would be enough to down a Galaxy class starship shield grid. Which is fairly reasonable.

Now, take this into account.

In the attack on DS9, we saw at most, half the shots, more realistically only about a 4th. We'll do three calculations: A low (only observed attacks), medium (we only saw half, and thus double the amount), and a 4th (x4 the amount)

What we saw:

We saw four grouped shots from Dominion battlecruisers, meaning they each shot three torpedoes out in a group. They appear a lot like the quantums, but we'll assume they're just normal photon torpedoes. In that case, a hundred megatons each. Or 1,200 megatons.

In any case, moving on, we saw nine Cardassian phaser banks scoring hits, and thirteen phased poleron beam hits from the Dominion attack ships. Assuming these ships have pitiful firepower, and only have a tenth of the firepower that the Romulan disruptor cannons displayed in Pegasus, we get about 41 megatons.

Low End: 1,241 megatons. That isn't much better than the Enterprise D, so this seems somewhat unlikely.

Medium: 2,482 megatons. This is more accurate, and would match with what we see on screen. Of course, that would also mean that the fleet could have done away with the station in 25 shots.

High End: 4,964 megatons. This feels more accurate, since this would require at least forty or so starships.

In anycase, we'll take the medium, since it's inbetween the two. This would mean that in order for the Empire to take down DS9, they'd need to hit her 3,309 times with their heavy turbolasers, and they're unlikely to hold up against a hundred megatons, two hundred max. So, with 5,000 photon torps, and about 15 torpedoes being launched per five seconds, that would mean that the station could at least take down 7.5 starships every five seconds. With their armament, they could take out 2,500 Imperial ships within about six minutes or so, if they wanted to, although pacing an aiming is likely going to mean about fifteen minutes.

And that's not even including the phaser banks.

And that's an outdated station with upgrades. The Vulcan, Earth, Andorian, and other planets are likely to have more than one, and planetary weapons. You're basically looking at something short of a suicidal invasion.

Really, the fact that the Borg managed to do the UFP in so quickly is amazing. We saw the UFP could push at least put one photon into the Borg cube every second. Now, given this, and the fact that it takes at least 27 minutes to get from Jupiter to Earth, that would mean that the UFP at least got 1,620 photon torpedoes into the target from there.

HOWEVER, we know that the UFP engaged the cube when the Enterprise was near the neutral zone. Now, it would at least take a day, if not a week to get there. But assuming they only fought a 4th of that time (six hours), we get at least 21,600 megatons, and more likely, 151,200 megatons, 0r 151.2 gigatons, and possibly a lot more.

Because we could just as easily double it to 302.4 gigatons, or assume a full scale battle all the way home (which is what the movie indicates), which would put it at 604.8 gigatons.

If they chose to defend only Vulcan and Earth, they still lose.

Your claim is poor. Thus far, Earth's defenses could easily withstand thousands of starships, not just a small fleet.

If they chose to defend every founder world, the indiviual fleets will be weak, and lose some planets and starbases. If they chose to defend only planets, they lose the starbases.

You realize they have at least two starbases and one spacedock in Sector 001 right (earth's solar system), that's at least 15,000 photon torpeodoes, and a shit load of shielding to get through, not to mention at least two or three starships, possibly 40 that could arrive within a short time span.

In fact, since there are only four founding worlds to the UFP, they would just need about 120 starships to do it, which takes up only 12% of one of their ten fleets.

That isn't a stretch.

And as for losing starbases, they have runabouts, and shuttles to help in their defense, not to mention their firepower alone would make an attack suicidal.

If they chose to defend everything, they will be way too weak. Oh, for 10 Lucrehulk-class LH-3210 cargo freighters, make that 10 Lucrehulk-class LH-3210 cargo freighter and 10 Lucrehulk-class battleships. Lucrehulk-class are half space station ,half battleship and freighter.

Please don't make me get into the canon issue again.

[Hellblade8]

that certainly doesn't sound like a 20 to 30% power shot to me. And 19 second to drill a hole through rock 8km deep and one meter in radius is still not as impressive as ESB.



Certainly seems like some heat is produced.

That tells us nothing.

First of all, he said reconfigure...that could mean anything. It could mean they modified the way the phaser works, so the phaser doesn't eat away everything around it (like we see when they deal damage to starship hulls, which supports the theory).

And as for the heat, that still tells us nothing. We see heat from when they melt ice off an object bigger than the ship, meaning they vaporized something about four times as much as as the ship. Instead of just seeing some heat from the vaporization, we should have seen a ball of expanding plasma.

We don't. Thus, using the steam as a basis for an energy output is flawed.

[Hellblade8]

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1830636]Actually it is not contradictive. In EVERY battle ships faly at most ten times their own lenthe per second with the notable exception of Defiant and TOS Enterprise (in one episode). Also the Bird of Prey in Generation missed the slow and straight moving Enterprise D several times. In fact in battles you will see that phasers miss at least as often as they hit in ST and Photon torpedoes are lucky to have a 33% hit probabilty most days. Exceptions do exist but over all ST vessels miss more often than they Appear to in SW./QUOTE]

Bullshit, UFP ships hit about 70% of the time, while Imperial ships range between 45-65% of the time, depending on how far the ships are. And as for the Generations example, that is easily shown to be an exception, as we see other battles where both type of ships are moving much faster, and shooting a lot more often.

As for your assertions on the vesels in SW they ships don't appear to move as quickly becuase the battle is much larger and unlike Startrek we are looking at most battles from a fighters perspective. However it is clear in ROTJ and ROTS that the capshisp are pulling 3200m/s, it's just you are viewing them from a vessel pull 6400m/s to 10000 m/s and are looking at a much larger battle.

Is your ass sour after you pull this shit out of it? If you wish to make this claim, you must prove it. It isn't unlikely, I'll grant you that, but you and I both know you're trying to cut down on ST speeds while trying to push up Imperial speeds. On average, they're both about the same at sub-light speeds, with the UFP being just a bit faster, and much more agile. Of course, UFP ships can also somehow push their sub-light engines into the lightyear ranges.

And except for the opening scene of ANH, i have yet to see a Capital Ship misswhen firing on another capital ship. Yes they do miss a lot when they are targeting the fighters, but they are MUCH smaller than Federtaion vessels, much more maneuverable and at least as fast tactically from what we have witnessed.

They aren't fast. They are AGILE. A TIE fighter is very unlikely capable of keeping up with an ISD or a Galaxy class, but when you're in a mob of ships, and you have fighters everwhere, their agility makes it very easy to land blows on large moving objects. In tactical battles, ISDs are slow moving sloths, and ST ships move at much slower paces. This is due to the limitation of agility. ST ships are fast, but at such close ranges, speed becomes a hazard, and thus they are limited to much slower speeds.

[Hellblade8]

Actually that was the SOTA flagship of the Federation, and a Captain's Yacht, which is equivalent to a runabout, also SOTA at the moment. it was also classified as WEAK ion storm. It still does not dispute the facts of "Who Mourns for Morn."

*sigh*

Your evidence that the Captain's Yacht and a runabout are anywhere near comparable?

[Kittamaru]

Actually it is not contradictive. In EVERY battle ships faly at most ten times their own lenthe per second with the notable exception of Defiant and TOS Enterprise (in one episode). Also the Bird of Prey in Generation missed the slow and straight moving Enterprise D several times. In fact in battles you will see that phasers miss at least as often as they hit in ST and Photon torpedoes are lucky to have a 33% hit probabilty most days. Exceptions do exist but over all ST vessels miss more often than they Appear to in SW.


As for your assertions on the vesels in SW they ships don't appear to move as quickly becuase the battle is much larger and unlike Startrek we are looking at most battles from a fighters perspective. However it is clear in ROTJ and ROTS that the capshisp are pulling 3200m/s, it's just you are viewing them from a vessel pull 6400m/s to 10000 m/s and are looking at a much larger battle.

Hell, when the SSD Exectutioner made it's nose dive into the deathstar it moved it's lenght in a second. on the short side that 12+km/s.

And except for the opening scene of ANH, i have yet to see a Capital Ship misswhen firing on another capital ship. Yes they do miss a lot when they are targeting the fighters, but they are MUCH smaller than Federtaion vessels, much more maneuverable and at least as fast tactically from what we have witnessed.

Are you retarded... Klingon BoP's use DISRUPTOR cannons... not Phasers... and those ships are hitting like, 100 years old!

The clip of the Executioner dive into the deathstar, it was NOT moving it's length every second... not even CLOSE

So you agree fighters are hard to hit not due to pilot skill, but size.

Good.

Now we'll send waves of heavily shielded (read, nearly as strong as a Nova class) Peregrine assault bombers after your ships... due to their size (about the same as a Y-Wing) fast speed (at least 10x that of an x-wing) and agility (split-s anyone?) they should have no trouble.

Case closed.

As for the hit percentage - watching the main battle scenes, especially involving fighters, I'd say the hit percentage of a capital ship vs a fighter is around... maybe .05%

[Kittamaru]

that certainly doesn't sound like a 20 to 30% power shot to me. And 19 second to drill a hole through rock 8km deep and one meter in radius is still not as impressive as ESB.



Certainly seems like some heat is produced.

So having a beam tightly focused means it's at full power? I didn't know that. *rolls eyes*

[Kittamaru]

*sigh*

Your evidence that the Captain's Yacht and a runabout are anywhere near comparable?

That was not the Captains Yacht... the Sovereign captains yacht has warp nacelles that fold out... watch Insurrection again.

[antaran_1979]

that certainly doesn't sound like a 20 to 30% power shot to me. And 19 second to drill a hole through rock 8km deep and one meter in radius is still not as impressive as ESB.



.Certainly seems like some heat is produced.

.they said the drilling raised the T of the magma pocket, yes, so SOME heet is produced. but of that had been a pure melting/vaporising procedure we could expect more then some. besides that episode does not provide visual confirmation of the drilling. it provides the discharge time of the phasers at 19s. 19s!!!! in entire TNG there has not been a phaser on full fired from a GCS that lasted more then 1.1s. and then they are usualy able to shoot 3-4 such bursts in quicks succession, for total of <5s phaser fire. so the rate of discharge in this episode can be no more then 25%. the configuration is stated to be to focus the beam. and how did you come up with that 1m radius hole? those phaser emitters are 7m wide.

for a direct visual of 16s drilling through solid granite look up the "Lagacy"

[antaran_1979]

1.Actually it is not contradictive. In EVERY battle ships faly at most ten times their own lenthe per second with the notable exception of Defiant and TOS Enterprise (in one episode). Also the Bird of Prey in Generation missed the slow and straight moving Enterprise D several times. In fact in battles you will see that phasers miss at least as often as they hit in ST and Photon torpedoes are lucky to have a 33% hit probabilty most days. Exceptions do exist but over all ST vessels miss more often than they Appear to in SW.


2.As for your assertions on the vesels in SW they ships don't appear to move as quickly becuase the battle is much larger and unlike Startrek we are looking at most battles from a fighters perspective. However it is clear in ROTJ and ROTS that the capshisp are pulling 3200m/s, it's just you are viewing them from a vessel pull 6400m/s to 10000 m/s and are looking at a much larger battle.

.

1. ahem you refer to the klingon aging ship that fired pulse disruptors? and the klingons that often fire manualy (like their imperial cousins)? as far as torpedo misses go, i remember only 1 in TNG, that torpedo when Worf modified the targeiting devices. i can't remember a beam missing a cruiser+ sized ship. refresh my memory.
2. i was refering to the cap from the bridge of Home One, so no fighter perspective here.