Star Wars vs Star Trek

[antaran_1979]

As for Skin of Evil, we are not told how large the planet is so the resulting explsion flash means nothing. Also the Torpedo was targeted on a Long range shuttle, the ones with a mini warp core. So attributing that explosive flash to a Photon Torpedo is just ludicrous.

well the gravity seamed normal, and the atmosphere was dense enough, so there is no way it was far off Earth's parameters

[antaran_1979]

Actually seeing as how Transporters can barely fuinction under ideal circumstances, their use in battle as anything other than a convenient way to board or lay mines is just not feasible.

Boarding a Federation vessel is easy as 90% of them only move slowly in combat. Only the defiant class seem to move at any real speed in fleet engagements. Also the Federation seems to like to fight in close enough to spit at each other. they can shoot farther, but seem to love it up close.

huh? can you account for how many transporter mulfanctions are experienced during the shows as to how many times they were used?

[TW Scott]

lol, you probably mean 1/15s to blast 900 cubic meters asteroid and then recharge for at least a second.

LOL, no. Watch the movie and read the novelizations. The ISD's were directly following Millenium Falcon's path through the Asteroids. There are asteroids well in excess of 100 meters radius. The scene in ESB alone proves 40 to 60 meter raius vaporizations.

Also the recharge rates on cannons is sufficiently short enough in ANH and ROTJ that the same laser guns were firing mopre than twice a second.

[antaran_1979]

There are such things as tractor beams and gravity well generators. Both of which would stop the Rebels fromk escaping.

i doubt they have infinite range, and the Empire most cetanly did not use any tractors at Endor.

[antaran_1979]

LOL, no. Watch the movie and read the novelizations. The ISD's were directly following Millenium Falcon's path through the Asteroids. There are asteroids well in excess of 100 meters radius. The scene in ESB alone proves 40 to 60 meter raius vaporizations.

Also the recharge rates on cannons is sufficiently short enough in ANH and ROTJ that the same laser guns were firing mopre than twice a second.

mate, i've wached the movies many times, and even posted the screen caps. the novelisation would have been fine, but in this case it contradicts the movie.

[TW Scott]

huh? can you account for how many transporter mulfanctions are experienced during the shows as to how many times they were used?

Actually, considering that ANYTHING out of whack sends them into a tizzy, I don;t need to account the malfunctions when nothing was wrong i just need to mention things that have hindererd transporters.

Shields (your own or other)
Ion Storm
Radiation
Sensor Jamming
Physical Strength
Exotic metals
Dense metals
Dense Rocks
Exotic minerals
....

The list goes on and on. Basically anything that is not an ideal situation completely louses transporters up.

[TW Scott]

mate, i've wached the movies many times, and even posted the screen caps. the novelisation would have been fine, but in this case it contradicts the movie.

No, it doesn't. Your scaling has been way off, not surprisingly. Leave it to people who actually understand what they are doing.

[TW Scott]

i doubt they have infinite range, and the Empire most cetanly did not use any tractors at Endor.

Tractors are invisble in Star Wars and Gravity well generators don;t need infinite range they just have to cast a sufficient mass shadow in the path of escape.

[USS Athens]

Omg! He ignored my post again!

[antaran_1979]

Actually, considering that ANYTHING out of whack sends them into a tizzy, I don;t need to account the malfunctions when nothing was wrong i just need to mention things that have hindererd transporters.

Shields (your own or other)
Ion Storm
Radiation
Sensor Jamming
Physical Strength
Exotic metals
Dense metals
Dense Rocks
Exotic minerals
....

The list goes on and on. Basically anything that is not an ideal situation completely louses transporters up.

how about direct combat? we see them used during bording actions. (sorry for the delay, my intenet conection is clunky this weekend)

[antaran_1979]

No, it doesn't. Your scaling has been way off, not surprisingly. Leave it to people who actually understand what they are doing.

how about making direct analisis you self then (if you dare back it up with onscreen evidence that is). you lad are good for nothing but rumble. not even once did you document your counter arguments to my posts. and your obvious ignorance of basics like dopler effect or thermal transfer is alarming. i posted pic of Falcon being hit by TL bolt. if this does does not provide a scaling base i don't know what does.

[antaran_1979]

Tractors are invisble in Star Wars and Gravity well generators don;t need infinite range they just have to cast a sufficient mass shadow in the path of escape.

are you brain dead? the rebels slip through imperial ships unhidered. if they moce away on sub-light, what is to stop them from entering hyperspace? good will?

[Kittamaru]

Okay apparrantly Kittamaru and Saquist live in a warped reality where apparantly phasers failing to do anything even remotely as powerful as what we see in ESB is proof of their superiority.

Phaser: Takes ten seconds to drill 30,000+ cubic meters through concrete and granite.

Turbolasers: Takes 1/15th of a second to vaporize 30,000+ cubic meters of iron/nickel.

And you can't ST me they were just being slow and careful in Star trek. The computer is quite capable of calculating exactly how long is needed to drill hole with it's phasers. they could have easily allowed the computer to fire a beam that lasts as long as they needed. So ten seconds is EXACTLY as fast as the ships phaser array can drill it's way through 30,000+ cubic meters.

Scott, listen for fucks sake. A full on phaser strike would FLAMBE THE ATMOSPHERE OF A PLANET! Eg, GONE! They said it, CUT AND DRY, in TOS!

They were using a VERY low power phaser to drill! We're talking like, MAYBE a 1/100th of a percent power! Use your BRAIN! Drilling the hole in 1/9*10^100th seconds is pointless if the TOTAL POPULATION OF THE PLANET THEY WERE TRYING TO SAVE IS NOW FLASH FRIED!

[Kittamaru]

No, it doesn't. Your scaling has been way off, not surprisingly. Leave it to people who actually understand what they are doing.

Thus, him, and not you? Sounds good to me.

[USS Athens]

It wasn't the Avenger.

The problem is if you ask Lucas now he'd say what does it look like. At worst it looks like the bridge tower was shorn off. However if it is indeed the Avenger then it most certainly was not destroyed or even damaged.

Um "NO F*CKING LOST OFFENSIVE CAPABILITY!?!" Targeting scanners!?! Command crew!?! Listen to yourself. That's worse than taking out an ST ship's bridge.

Supposing the worst for the SW side, we still have a ship that has lost NONE of it's offenseive capability, just the targeting radar and some sensitive sanners, as well as soe comms equipment, and command crew. In a fleet engagement the vessel would still be a threat.

The weapons need targeting scanners, it's not all about the guns, you need something to guide the gun. Now I know that's very difficult for an extremist warsie like you to comprehend... but god TW, just realize sometimes just how stupid your posts are.

Did Tee-Dubya ever get back to me on this?

Hello TW...

[Hellblade8]

Omg! He ignored my post again!

Ah, that's his typical manuver when he's being beaten during a debate. He ignores the person making the posts. He's done it to me countless times. Hold up the barage and eventually he'll run off until the heat cools down.

[Hellblade8]

LOL, no. Watch the movie and read the novelizations. The ISD's were directly following Millenium Falcon's path through the Asteroids. There are asteroids well in excess of 100 meters radius. The scene in ESB alone proves 40 to 60 meter raius vaporizations.

Fine, but according to Wong's calculator, that would still be much lower, about 479.1 kilotons.

An impressive feat no doubt, but not exactly what we see the UFP doing.

Again, we can easily prove that the UFP can dish out more energy than that.

A UFP phaser rifle has an output of 1.05 megawatts. Total, that shows us that for every 1.05 megawatts that the UFP puts into their shots, they get about 300x the effective damage. This means, that a phaser rifle at setting 16, can dish out 300 megawatts worth of firepower.

Now, we also know that it takes at LEAST 4.2 gigawatts to power a SMALL phaser bank. This would be something you'd see on an old Miranda class, or Constitution class. Now, assuming that at least one phaser element can have the same output, we multiply that by 933, and get 3,918.6 gigawatts. Now, we know they get almost 300x per the amount, and since the difference is only .05 (and the weapon was stated to be above average in firepower, since it was a fake made by the romulans, this seems fair enough).

That would mean that the main phaser array of a Galaxy class ship is at least 1,175,580 gigwatts, at least effectively.

So, it does at least 0.281239234 megatons. Or 281.2 kilotons. Now that's low end, and we also have the instance where the Romulan warbird in Pegasus was able to melt a great deal of rock, as seen by the calculations given to us by the Daystrom Institute:

In this episode a Romulan Warbird melts a significant portion of a large asteroid in order to seal the Enterprise-D inside a large chamber in the interior. The asteroid is described by the Encyclopedia (2nd edition, page 24) as 'moon sized'. No clear indication of the overall size is possible from the episode itself, but the when the Enterprise is on its way out of the asteroid Lieutenant Worf reports 'We have passed through two kilometres of the asteroid. Now within one kilometre of the surface.', indicating that the fissure is three kilometres deep. The fissure must have a diameter of at least six hundred metres in order to accomodate the Enterprise-D. The Warbird melts sufficient rock to fill the entire fissure.

The time scale is uncertain. We see Admiral Pressman and Commander Riker on the Starship Pegasus when the attack begins; they beam to the Enterprise, then the scene cuts and shows them arriving on the bridge to see the rock cooling. Twenty five seconds of screen time elapse, but some twenty or so extra seconds would be required for the two officers to reach the bridge from the transporter room. The total time of the Warbirds barrage is therefore approximately forty five seconds.

The volume of asteroidal material melted can be calculated by the equation :

V = pi x average radius of fissure2 x depth of fissure
= 3.142 x 3002 x 3000
= 3.142 x 3002 x 3000
= 848,340,000 cubic metres.

Assuming that the asteroid is rock the density, boiling point and specific heat capacity should be approximately 2,300 kg/cubic metre, 2500 K, and 720 J/Kg/K respectively. The energy required to melt this volume can be calculated thus :

E = 8.4834 x 108 x 2300 x 2500 x 720
= 3.512 x 1018 Joules

The average power output of the Warbird was therefore equal to :

P = 3.512 x 1018 / 45
= 7.805 x 1016 Watts

Or 78,047 Terawatts. This fits in exactly with the Warbird having slightly less firepower than the 100,000 TW output calculated earlier for the Galaxy class.

Also the recharge rates on cannons is sufficiently short enough in ANH and ROTJ that the same laser guns were firing mopre than twice a second.[/QUOTE]

78,047 terawatts, or 18.67 megatons.

It seems, that even at your best, you fail so horribly.

[Hellblade8]

are you brain dead? the rebels slip through imperial ships unhidered. if they moce away on sub-light, what is to stop them from entering hyperspace? good will?

Not to mention their fighters, which can escape the gravity well of a planet. Both UFP shuttles and starships can easily do the same. There is no reason to believe that this would have any effect on a UFP starship then.

Also, a UFP ship can move at 1/4th the speed of light, which is likely to grant them the ability to break away from a great deal of things.

Also, according to these calculations, we get a minimum for the Enterprise D in Relics (Again, Daystrom Institute):

During the episode it was revealed that the sphere had been abandoned because the star within it had become unstable, periodically emitting large amounts of radiation and mass. Datas dialogue revealed that the star had begun to enter such a phase as the Enterprise went into orbit - 'Sensors indicate that the solar flares will continue to grow', is how he put it. Hence, it seems that the average power output of the star was going to increase considerably during the next three hours - a factor which could push the shield numbers up by almost any amount. We also do not know the initial conditions within the sphere - it may well have been that the natives preferred environment was a much brighter and hotter one than class M, or much darker and colder for that matter.

Put simply, this episode proves only one thing beyond any possible doubt : against wideband electromagnetic input, the badly damaged shields of the Enterprise-D can withstand an absolute minimum of tens of thousands of terajoules and quite possibly a good deal more.

Assuming that shield capacity is directly proportional to the strength figure Data quoted, then the maximum capacity for the shields would be :

E = (100/23) x 9 x 1017 Joules = 3,913,000 TeraJoules.

But of course, this is yet another loaded assumption because Data could have meant that the shields had 23% of their normal power running through them, or 23% of their maximum energy absorbtion rate, or... you get the idea.

During my own speculations about the strength of Starship shielding, I assigned the Galaxy class a shield capacity of 5,400,000 TJ; this is some 38% above the top figure generated by 'Relics', which seems well within the range which can be accounted for by increased solar activity. On the other hand, it is an eighteenfold increase over the lower end of the range, which is still certainly feasible but less likely.

Of course, 2369, while the shielding figures on my pages are for 2374/5. During this time Starfleet has encountered the Dominion, and apparently most or all starships and starbases have had their shields modified to resist Dominion attack; metaphasic shielding was also invented during this interval. Between them these three factors could easily account for a considerable increase in shielding levels on the Galaxy class.

Or basicly 936 megatons. 936 divided by 0.479 = 1,954 times an ISD would have to hit a UFP starship with its guns in order to drop her shields. Going by G2k's higher idea of 1.5 megatons (max), we would get 624 hits by their heavy turbo lasers in order to drop the Galaxy's shield.

[Kittamaru]

The UFP can move at 80% the speed of light on a Galaxy, nearly 90% for a Sovereign... way more than 1/4 mate

[Saquist]

Omg! He ignored my post again!

LOL....I know...

Tractors are invisble in Star Wars and Gravity well generators don;t need infinite range they just have to cast a sufficient mass shadow in the path of escape.

OMG...
How does that begin to argue that tractor beams were used?! SHOW CANON...not speculation...You always do this...without fail. And it never ceases to amaze me.

As for Skin of Evil, we are not told how large the planet is so the resulting explsion flash means nothing. Also the Torpedo was targeted on a Long range shuttle, the ones with a mini warp core. So attributing that explosive flash to a Photon Torpedo is just ludicrous.

No need to know the litteral size of the planet. The gravity was Earth Normal thus the Explosion was somere on the size of the country of Columbia!

Type Seven Shuttle Craft
Plus, the shuttle craft was impulse only. None of the episodes it was in ever had the vessel at warp... That means no Warp Core. So you're wrong again.
Don't believe me...review the Episode Q Who. The type 7 is missing and Enterprise conducts a search and never goes to warp during the search.

Okay apparrantly Kittamaru and Saquist live in a warped reality where apparantly phasers failing to do anything even remotely as powerful as what we see in ESB is proof of their superiority.

Phaser: Takes ten seconds to drill 30,000+ cubic meters through concrete and granite.

Turbolasers: Takes 1/15th of a second to vaporize 30,000+ cubic meters of iron/nickel.

And you can't ST me they were just being slow and careful in Star trek. The computer is quite capable of calculating exactly how long is needed to drill hole with it's phasers. they could have easily allowed the computer to fire a beam that lasts as long as they needed. So ten seconds is EXACTLY as fast as the ships phaser array can drill it's way through 30,000+ cubic meters.

Antaran has already debunked your false theory TW. And he did so quite effectively. Where you accepted it or not 200 pages ago I debunked your claim that the turbo laser was superior to the phaser. We all know that's not true to day.

1) We know from the close ups that asteroid in ESB wasn't completely vaporized. There was particle matter left over.

2) We know the phaser actually vaporize leaving nothing within hundreds of meters of the beam

3) We know the phasers target was 10 times denser than the heaviest element in an asteroid of nikel/iron.

4) that comes to 50 or 60 times the ability of the turbo laser.

What do you not understand Scotty....
Scotty DON'T!!!

What about Palpatine's order's then. Do you mind showing me that picture again please?
They can fire concussion missiles with 10 Seismic Charge and 10 Thermal Dentonators tie on to it. That will destroy a Federation vessle.

I know but after the Rebels went toe to toe with the Star Destroyers to avoid the Death Star do you really think they didn't open fire on the Rebel ships even though the Mon Calmari cruisers were destroying Star Destroyers?