Star Wars vs Star Trek

[kv1at3485]

I think it is safe to assume that SW shields can 'remodulate their frequencies' at will. After all, it can be expected that turbolasers attack craft 'lasers' of different manufacture will operate on different frequencies (or able to change their frequencies), and the shields will need to be able to withstand them all.

As for what types of attacks SW shields can withstand: just about everything a ST shield would be expected to withstand.

[Hapsburg]

SW has an interesting ability on thier weapons and shieldings to tone down or up thier yields at will, depending on the situation. Say, at not more than a few kilometers away, they'd wanna tone the guns down to avoid any possible damage. At large ranges, thier weapons have the ability to frag capships in one shot.
Thier shields can, thus, be altered when need be, toned up or down. This is an ability that ST has never shown, but SW has all the time.

[kv1at3485]

SW has an interesting ability on thier weapons and shieldings to tone down or up thier yields at will, depending on the situation. Say, at not more than a few kilometers away, they'd wanna tone the guns down to avoid any possible damage. At large ranges, thier weapons have the ability to frag capships in one shot.
Thier shields can, thus, be altered when need be, toned up or down. This is an ability that ST has never shown, but SW has all the time.

Where do you get the impression that SW shields are able to ramp up or down any better than ST shields?

And ST weapons have also been shown to exhibit 'variable yields.'

[Kron]

What's the cloaking capabilities of ST's and SW's ships?

[kv1at3485]

Essentially the 'current' SW cloaks render a ship blind. It's only really good for hiding, unless you use Force-sensitive individuals to relay information to and from a cloaked ship. But aside from that, the cloak is pretty much undetectable (unless you have a Force-sensitive person 'searching'.)

SW use to have a cloak that allowed a ship to 'see out', but apparently sometime nearing the end of the Old Republic they could no longer be constructed, and so the examples remaining became extremely valuable and increasingly rare.

---

ST systems don't suffer from the 'double blind, however cloaks are eventually nullified by advances in sensor technology, which in turn are trumped again by advances in stealth technology, etc., etc.. One can expect that even the Reman cloak will eventually be broken.

The wierd ST cloak is the phase cloak. It's not really a cloak at all. It simply submerges a ship into another dimension (probably the ever useful subspace). If it is subspace, this means that a phase 'cloaked' ship cannot pass through a ST shield. But neither can it be attacked with a purely realspace method, even if it is detected from realspace. We don't know if two phased cloaked ships can shoot at each other though.

There has been at least one instance of a personal cloaking device in ST (VOY "Distant Origins"), although that system was easily detected by internal sensors and nullified.

[a_ht]

Jem adar can cloack themselves at will.

[mars13]

the ability to have a varible power output is not the same as being able to change frequencies.if sw cant change shiled frequency they are screwed after the first st force breaks thier shield frequency.

transporters could just be modulated to beam throu their shields,as well as phasers being able to pass throu them.

if sw cant show where they can modulate shields throu diffrent frequencys and energy types then sw shields wont be effective after the first few battles.

and i think in the episode with the phase cloak,they said it COULD pass threw shielding.

phasecloak and dimensional transporters are very powerful weaponry.

[kv1at3485]

Jem adar can cloack themselves at will.

Forgot about the Jem'hadar. Although 'white' deprivation results in an inability to shroud.

and i think in the episode with the phase cloak,they said it COULD pass threw shielding.

Nope. No mention of that in "The Pegasus."

---

On the other hand, I was wrong about how the phase cloak works. According to Riker, the cloak "changes the structure of matter", nothing about moving the object into another dimension.

In any case, still no reason to believe that a phase cloaked ship can penetrate an energy shield.

[mars13]

what,that was the entire point of the phasecloak, to penetrate enemy defences. there is no reason to belive that energy shields can stop it either.

[kv1at3485]

I suggest watching the episode again. Pressman merely states that:

"Can't you see the potential here? The phasing cloak could be the greatest breakthrough in weapons research in the last fifty years."

Riker states that:

"It's more than just a cloak. It changes the structure of matter... in theory, a ship using this device would be able to pass through normal matter." (Text bolded by me.)

Nowhere is it even implied that the phase cloak can go through a shield. In fact, if you think about it, a shield should stop a phase cloaked ship since the ship is still composed of matter and energy in realspace, the very things shields are designed to stop.

The only advantage that a phase cloaked ship has over a conventionally cloaked ship is that the phase cloaked ship cannot be be hit by a conventional realspace weapon. Then again, that does give a phase cloaked ship considerably more operational freedom.

there is no reason to belive that energy shields can stop it either.

Burden of proof is on you given the evidence.

[Hapsburg]

Where do you get the impression that SW shields are able to ramp up or down any better than ST shields?

And ST weapons have also been shown to exhibit 'variable yields.'

Man, whose side are you on?

[Kron]

The greatest cloaking device that I know of is the no-field, as it is also invisible to supernatural means.

As for the phase cloak; the 'submeged in another dimension' explanation is very feasible, but how can matter phase if it's simply restructured???

[kv1at3485]

As for the phase cloak; the 'submeged in another dimension' explanation is very feasible, but how can matter phase if it's simply restructured???

You're right. The dialog does not support the 'move object into another dimension' idea.

I retract my ill-thought out theory on how the blasted phase cloak works.

Saying that, how it 'really' works... your guess is as good as mine.

---

And Hapsburg, I'm certainly not on the side of unsubstantiated ideas.

[mars13]

so,can sw modulate shield frequencies and energy types?

because so far there is absolutly no evidence that they can,they might not even know shields CAN be modulated,maybe they started using one kind of shield and stuck with it because it worked?

burden of proof and all that.


also,when matter is phased it can be modulated to a frequency of a shield and passed throu it,thats how they can/have beamed throu shielding,if they know the frequency.

[Prince_James]

Again, only going to make limited responses.

kv1at3485:

Using the UFP in the 24th century is a very limited example, since we know that the UFP does tend to soften its punches when it can. (They weren't quite faced with armageddon either.)

Yes, but not even the mention of using it in a last-resort tactic was envisioned.

We do know that as early as the 29th century, temporal warfare has become a real concern and that the powers have built the infrastructure necessary to wage that type of conflict. (At least that's how I interpret that stupid 'Temporal Cold War' thing in ENT.)

Yes, but seeing how the paradoxes don't pop up that should, we can safely imagine some degree of time-travel limitation that makes the Trek universe incapable of using it.

Apparently there were instances of torpedoes being fired at warp in TOS's "The Ultimate Computer", "Elaan of Troyius" and VOY's "Flashback".

Funny, I just found a store-bought VHS tape of Elaan of Troyius I had no idea I had.

The Sun Crusher was capable of engaging other ships in hyperspace? Been a while since I read that book too, but I seem to recall the Sun Crusher reveling in mass-destruction only when it was at sublight.

You are right that Suncrusher showed sub-light fighting capacity only, but if we are to assume that hyperspace objects can impact realspace objects (which is why they need to stear clear of stars, planets, et cetera) that the suncrusher, which was essentially invulnerable, might be able to survive litterally smashing through something at hyperspace. Of course, even then it might not work.

mars13 :

i think transporter tech would steadily wear down sw defences.they may have 25,000 star destroyers,but it would only take one photon torp to blow one up.and with dimensional transport,and the half a dozen other transport methods would
only continue to destroy sw ships.

What the hell are -you- smoking? Photon torpedos are ridiculous weak compared to SW weaponary. SW's shields wouldn't even be impacted by a photon torpedo.

and the suncrusher was stopped by one blackhole?one spacial anomly and there most powerful ship is destroyed?

Considering -nothing- can escape a black hole and they -intended- to destroy the Sun Crusher anyway. Don't even try to state this will somehow mean Star Wars is incapable of dealing with spatial anomalies, which a black hole is -not rightfully apart of-, considering it is a natural occuring phenomena.

Also, the Romulans use a -microsinguarlity-, not an actual "black hole".

[Fafnir665]

so,can sw modulate shield frequencies and energy types?

because so far there is absolutly no evidence that they can,they might not even know shields CAN be modulated,maybe they started using one kind of shield and stuck with it because it worked?

burden of proof and all that.


also,when matter is phased it can be modulated to a frequency of a shield and passed throu it,thats how they can/have beamed throu shielding,if they know the frequency.

Youre assuming that the shields work on the same principle. It could be that the SW shields are 'multi frequency' and not limited to one phase or whatever you wanna call it.

[kv1at3485]

also,when matter is phased it can be modulated to a frequency of a shield and passed throu it,thats how they can/have beamed throu shielding,if they know the frequency.

When have we ever seen a phase (or interphase) cloaked object pass through a forcefield or shield? In VOY "Distant Origin", one of the Voth clearly states that:

"The forcefield is disrupting our interphase. I'm compensating. I can at least get us off this deck."

They manage to escape, but not by walking through the forcefield, but beaming out instead. Note that the transporter breaches the forcefield on a subspace level, not a realspace one, so direct comparison is not revealing.

-

There is one point that may allow a phase cloak to pass through a SW shield, but not a ST one. In TNG's "The Next Phase" we have Geordi and Ro walking normally on the deck, even though they can pass through walls and people. This would seem to imply that phase cloaked objects are affected by gravity, or intense graviton emissions.

ST shields (and presumably forcefields) emit gravitons. From ST:"Generations":
http://movies.trekpulse.com/album/di...bum=186&pos=24

Other massive objects, like planets and stars, should also be impermeable to a phase cloaked ship. If SW shields do not emit gravitons, they may be breached. This is not to say that all SW ships are at risk. (For example, Interdictors and Yuuzhan Vong ships will bump into a phase cloaked ship and laugh.)

Yes, but not even the mention of using it in a last-resort tactic was envisioned.

If the show had been about the guys who run the Federation, who make policy, and plan grand strategy, then I would expect such dire contingencies to be discussed and mentioned.

After all, I wouldn't expect the modern grunt to be too concerned about nuclear strategy when he's on the front line and being shot at.

Not to mention in the 24th century, there is very little control when it comes to timetravel. This is not the case in the 29th+ centuries.

Yes, but seeing how the paradoxes don't pop up that should, we can safely imagine some degree of time-travel limitation that makes the Trek universe incapable of using it.

29th+ centruy Trek has shown the ability to manage 'closed time loops'. (VOY's "Future's End" and "Relativity" demonstrate this well.) If not, there would be bundles of paradoxes.

Besides, a sudden incursion by SW into the ST universe would constitute a disruption in the time line. Using time travel to minimize the effects of that change would be within the mandate of ST's 29th+ century powers.

mars13 :“i think transporter tech would steadily wear down sw defences.they may have 25,000 star destroyers,but it would only take one photon torp to blow one up.and with dimensional transport,and the half a dozen other transport methods would
only continue to destroy sw ships.”

What the hell are -you- smoking? Photon torpedos are ridiculous weak compared to SW weaponary. SW's shields wouldn't even be impacted by a photon torpedo.

mars13 is closer to the truth on this one. He's not suggesting that the ordnance be directed at the shield (which is far to strong anyway), but rather the ordnance should bypass the shield completely and be inserted directly into the target (that's where the dimensional transporter comes in.)

And if you think about it, it's quite a deadly method. SW ships are powered by hypermatter fusion. If one manages to transport antimatter into the hypermatter storage bunkers, one might expect the hypermatter to 'go off' and suck the ship into hyperspace in an uncontrolled and very destructive manner.

[Prince_James]

kv1at3485:

Other massive objects, like planets and stars, should also be impermeable to a phase cloaked ship. If SW shields do not emit gravitons, they may be breached. This is not to say that all SW ships are at risk. (For example, Interdictors and Yuuzhan Vong ships will bump into a phase cloaked ship and laugh.)

Technically, anything with mass, by virtue of impacting gravity, emits gravitons.

If the show had been about the guys who run the Federation, who make policy, and plan grand strategy, then I would expect such dire contingencies to be discussed and mentioned.

The dominion, which did have top-level people routinely featured, such as that female founder, and Weyoun, never discussed the possibility of time-travel warfare, either.

After all, I wouldn't expect the modern grunt to be too concerned about nuclear strategy when he's on the front line and being shot at.

Not to mention in the 24th century, there is very little control when it comes to timetravel. This is not the case in the 29th+ centuries.

Bashir went to Sisko with the augment-crazies ideas for what would happen in the Dominion War, and was seriously considered, so we're not just dealing with say...O'Brian or Geordi chatting up the possibilities of time travel warfare at Quark's on Enterprise shore leave. Moreover, considering in Star Trek 4, Kirk and Co. go back precisely to 1986, precisely in a specific area, somewhat refutes the notion that 24th century time travel wasn't exacting. Similarly, the Enterprise under Picard was capable of going back in time a numerous times, including to just days before Data's head would appear in that cavern in San Fransisco.

29th+ centruy Trek has shown the ability to manage 'closed time loops'. (VOY's "Future's End" and "Relativity" demonstrate this well.) If not, there would be bundles of paradoxes.

Yes, which seems to indicate that time travel has some limitations/special aspects to it that aren't present in the real world, that may well make it implausible for actual, full scale, war.

Besides, a sudden incursion by SW into the ST universe would constitute a disruption in the time line. Using time travel to minimize the effects of that change would be within the mandate of ST's 29th+ century powers.

The problem with this is that it assumes that Star Wars never attacked the Fed in the 24th century. Feasibly, the 29th century could have an alliance with the New Republic. Although even the New Republic is not as pussy as the Fed, and that is saying a lot, considering the Republic refused to use Imperial superweapon technology to fight against the Vong which killed over 300 trillion sentients in the SW Galaxy, including the total destruction of Coruscant's 100,000+ year old city structure.

mars13 is closer to the truth on this one. He's not suggesting that the ordnance be directed at the shield (which is far to strong anyway), but rather the ordnance should bypass the shield completely and be inserted directly into the target (that's where the dimensional transporter comes in.)

Considering the sheer mass of the target, not to mention the sensor jammers/electric warfare (which is why most systems in SW are manned manually due to the lack of capacity to target most things via remote and the usage of non-guided turbolasers and blaster cannons), one photon torpedo might not be able to do the appropriate damage to "destroy a Star Destroyer".

And if you think about it, it's quite a deadly method. SW ships are powered by hypermatter fusion. If one manages to transport antimatter into the hypermatter storage bunkers, one might expect the hypermatter to 'go off' and suck the ship into hyperspace in an uncontrolled and very destructive manner.

I believe only the Deathstar uses hypermatter, but even so, it is difficult to work with the physics of hypermatter, considering the lack of knowledge about such things. The term seems to be linked with hyperspace, but aside from that, we know essentially nothing.

[Kron]

I think the phase cloak should be ignored, because it doesn't make sense. If a phase cloaked person didn't react with normal matter, how come they walk on the ground, breath un-phase-cloaked air and don't simply die due to lack of phase-cloaked-atmospheric pressure ???

[mars13]

well if we didnt count everything that didnt make sense then 99% of both st and sw would not be allowed.

also,phasecloak cloaks everything inside the cloak bubble,its about the same size as the shielding bubble.