Star Wars vs Star Trek

[TW Scott]

on wormholes, somehow they always apear "conformal". there is no way at least in this case to mesure its "throat". had the camera abandoned the wprmhole for a minute wile focusing on Enterprise we migh have known. from what we see on screen the view point is at times more then 50m far from the ship and still inside the wormhole. If enterprise is 140m wide this would make the "throat" at least 240m across. this gives us a 180m asteroid. and this is the apsolute minimum.

Now i Know your exaggerating. TheWidth of the wormhole was easily visible form several camera nagles and was at best 10 to 20 meter from the top and bottom of the vessel and less than that for the sides. At best we are talking 12 meters. Even given that the camera angles on the Asteroid are not accurate given parallax, meaning without proper scale of the asteroid we have no clue how big it was just from the image. As our view of the photon torpedo would be compromised by light doppler effect, then we can;t use the phon torpedo as a reasonable guide in the worm hole. There is an interesting animation scene where the Weapons station super imposes a Photon torpedo on tot the asteroid, but that scene would make the asteroid much, much smaller than the 50 meters estimate. Finally even a 180 meter Type C asteroid would require far less power to shatter than a 20 meter Type M would need to vaporize.

[TW Scott]

eh who mentioned intact? i said "collapsing".

Well, then either shields protected the ship or not. Either way there was NO EXPLOSION from the impact, just a cannonball effect.

as for the physics argument... well look at the caps. asteroids are
turned to vapor. there are visible microscopic debries in the place where they were seconds ago and they move slowly away. judging from the size of the debries the could be up to 60cm in diameter. and we are actually given the hardness of tritanium in an eposode. if i recall it is 20+ times harder then diamond.

Okay, in TPM the debris was much larger than 60cm if it was visible form that range. In ESB there is no debris at all, just rapidly expanding gas clouds. You do realize gaseous metal would have a physical appearance as it spreads and cools.

20 times harder than diamonds so a hardness of 11.1. You do realize a material can be extremely hard, but still have poor material strength. If it too rigid it can ud up snapping along it crystaline structures at a weak spot if enough load/stress is presented. Since some objects could easily pierce the hull the stress point might be lower than you expect, though I would guess a hundred times what it would take for steel.

as for your optical review on the torpedo (we see less o its front )i advise finding a highschool book on physics. the torpedo is a raidal optical source laddy. it's glow should diminish with range as it does. being invisible after some time means only one thing. it's too far off to be seen. on could try and pretend to be a scientist and calculate the range the torpedo traveled but since we don't have camera distance or angle it would be mostly speculation.

I would advise you to get a college level physics book. Or perhaps have someone more knowledgable talk to you. A radial light source is all fine and good, when it is not moving away form you, and is very close. You see the light source and the illuminated area becuase you receive more of the photons sent out, even on angles slightly divergent from yourself. However when it is moving away you get less and less of those divergent angles.

Think of it as a device that fires arrows at 360 degres at every degree. While is close to you, many of the arrows have and effect on you and your surrounding, move it out 100 feet and you gets less, move it out and you get even less, untill finally you get only one. The other arrows are fired, they just miss you becuase they are travelling along on their path.

[TW Scott]

Looks like fragments to me. (i magnified the section somewhat, inverted the colors and maxed out the brightness and contrast to make them stand out more, but they can plainly be seen in the original pic)

*edit* having read the next page of the thread, i guess thats what you were refering to as superheated rock vapor. however, shouldn't super heated rock vapor be glowing... and less dense looking than that?

Super heated metal vapor might glow for a short period, but rapidly cool as energy is spent on motion. It would also appear quite dense for a few moments as it dissipates. Remember you are looking at not even a full second.

[Saquist]

concerning thermal effects of TLs and Phasers. there is no doubt that some portion of their power comes from heet. it's just that it's most likely a small portion compared to the total destuctive power. all vaporizations on screen are unusualy "cold". Captain Tyrell vanishes in a blaze while Checkov stands nearby intact. tyrel should have boiled and exploded (since there is air to heet around). the astroids seam to explode from within. no method of transfer of energy known to man provides this efect. how come parts further then the impact become hotter or equaly hot. supersonic heeting is not the answer. if enrgy transfers faster then sound it will shutter the object. there for we must assume a fictional energy carrier .

Very logical. I had struggled with how to describe vaporiation in Trek...Cold is a good way to put it. That is a technical ability Star Wars seems to lack. Every thing done on that level requires heat.

[Hellblade8]

No, what you have provided is quotes from George that states that he is telling a story and does not want to be bothered by making it correct by EU so has said that where his movies and EU disagree, his movies are correct.

Sorry, the was quoted saying there are three different worlds, and he said which each one consisted of. EU and George's world were not in the same one.

But I will quote something of Gene Roddenberry. "It is not Star Trek until I say it is." Which would give me the ammunition to say nothing after his death could be considered canon. You don't see me doing that though. You know why? Becuase it's a cop out. A cheat. Just like what you are doing.

Or in reality, the fact that Gene didn't own Star Trek...Paramount did and still does. They only kept his method of keeping canon (Ie, what we see onscreen). George on the other hand, OWNS STAR WARS.

Do try again, and this time try to keep the cheating bullshit out of this, I have not tried to cheat you of anything, and this is simply a personal attack wrapped up in a nice lie.

Star Wars could defeat Star Trek on the movies alone, but this conversation is about the universes.

Yes, I agree. Provide some evidence to back up your claims, or I shall provide mine to a mod, and then ask him what he thinks.

[SkywalkerJedi]

you've had a double dose of gasoline for today eh? if the shields were stron enogh why did the tower blow up to pieces smaller then couple of meters? i single photon torpedo would have reduced that asteroid to ashes...

Read my posts! the bridge didn't blow up.

[SkywalkerJedi]

dude have you been drinking gasoline? this is snow they are shooting. had that last shot been made by a 88mm Tiger 1 tank is WW2 every soldier in the trench would have been dead

Watch the movies carefully, it shake the Ecoh base when it hit the ground, that proves it is hitting Ecoh base

[SkywalkerJedi]

phasers can allso be hand held. at full power they compleatly desintegrate or vaporize or whatever you call it a human sized target. they blast trough several cubic meters of solid rock. the only thing they can not do is your laundry

Blasters can blow chunks of wall off ( except for durasteel walls in Star Wars or duracete )

[SkywalkerJedi]

Not unless they've encountered the weapon previously.

The key to Borg adaption is assimilation. In "Q Who," the Borg didn't adapt to the Enterprise's weapons until they had assimilated some crewmen.

Star Wars would just have to keep it's distance and it would win.

[SkywalkerJedi]

i agree that the ISDs had no bussines being there. they are just so easy to hit. but there is no indication they were weaponless. the ISD that pursued the Falcon was capable of firing and they wee allready exiting the field in their pursuit, which leads to the conclusion that they actualy went through more asteroids to get there.
there are several posibilities as to why the did not fire though...

1. the asteroid was comming in to fast. either to fast for their main guns (since this was a large asteroid) or to fast for their targeting systems.
2. it was coming in from a blind spot. not likely since ISDs are seamingly covered with bateries on all sides. however since this was a much larger asteroid the all shot before they maybe neaded to shot it with their main guns. these guns are on lateral broad side placements and there is just no way they can cover this high + y axis angle.
3. since this asteroid was to big to destroy dey desided not to bother shooting it but instead divert full power to shields or something.

i personaly favor a combination of 1 and 2. the possibity 4 would be that the imperials are utterly incompetant, but that makes no sence.

Ya it is covered with turbolaser watch Revenge of the Sith carefully. ISD alot bigger then Galaxy-class so it is a easier target.

[SkywalkerJedi]

The evidence does not support that conclusion. At most, ISDs have about 1 megaton for heavy turbolasers. The Borg on the other hand, can easily absorb the output of a starships warp engines, and MT level weapons without a problem.




...so what?



Really? You mind posting it and giving me the link?




Are you stupid, or do you have a short memory.

There would have to be a wormhole of sorts because they exist from two different universes. That's how they get connected. Now will yiou stop spouting bullshit and actually prove anything you claim?



Back up that number with evidence. And furthermore, it was never stated that the Borg took even ten years to build that fleet up.

Where do you get your claims from?





Ah, then so would the Dominion, the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Borg, Species 8472, the Cardassians, and the Breen...and that's just off the top of my head.

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/showestnews.php?id=42983
Here is the link. Remember Anakin was 9 when they start building the CIS army because they got shut down, the war started when he is 19, so if you are not stupid you can figure it out. Qoute " We got the order 10 years ago, we use growth accleration so it will only take half the time to grow them."-Lama Su ( prime minster of Kamino ) You are making stupid claims, Turbolaser is not only a megaton, it is ALOT more then 1 megaton. If they are travel half way across the galaxy in less then 3 hours ( prove, Attack of the clones, if they arrived later then a couple of hours Obi-Wan and Anakin would of died ) Calculate! I calculated it would only take 2 years to get to a " Galaxy far far away ". Either Star Trek is lying or there is no wormhole outside milkyway.

[SkywalkerJedi]

Do Star Trek have awesome weapons like Lightsabers, lightsabers can melt through ANYTHING except force-fields, vibroblades thats strenghened by Sith Alcemy, or electrostaffs.

[Flectarn]

Do Star Trek have awesome weapons like Lightsabers, lightsabers can melt through ANYTHING except force-fields, vibroblades thats strenghened by Sith Alcemy, or electrostaffs.

and darth vaders shoulder apparently

[SkywalkerJedi]

Darth Vader's armor is strenghened by Sith Alcamey, remember Vader is the Chosen One and Sith'ari, it is very possible he blocked it with the force ( force protection ). Federation don't have force sensitives.

[SkywalkerJedi]

Remember Star Wars have alot better pilots like Anakin and Luke Skywalker. Tom Paris is no pilot compared to Anakin Skywalker.

[SkywalkerJedi]

The Federation is not smart enough to know that they need infantry. Technology is used to support infantry not replace it, they have no tanks like AT-AT, AT-TE, AT-HE.

[antaran_1979]

Now i Know your exaggerating. TheWidth of the wormhole was easily visible form several camera nagles and was at best 10 to 20 meter from the top and bottom of the vessel and less than that for the sides. At best we are talking 12 meters. Even given that the camera angles on the Asteroid are not accurate given parallax, meaning without proper scale of the asteroid we have no clue how big it was just from the image. As our view of the photon torpedo would be compromised by light doppler effect, then we can;t use the phon torpedo as a reasonable guide in the worm hole. There is an interesting animation scene where the Weapons station super imposes a Photon torpedo on tot the asteroid, but that scene would make the asteroid much, much smaller than the 50 meters estimate. Finally even a 180 meter Type C asteroid would require far less power to shatter than a 20 meter Type M would need to vaporize.

actually laddy, we are both guessing since there is no onscreen confirmation of any kind that involves the "walls" of the wormhole. none what so ever. do you have any idea how much of a 305m can be observed from a 10-20m distance? it can be calculated if we new the viewing angle of the observer (which we don't). if it's say 140 degrees then the lenght visible can be no more then 30m for a 10m distance. 1/10th of the ship?
and dude do read some actual physics book before posting. do you even know what dopler effect is. do you even know how it manifests on lightsources. light travels with CONSTANT speed no metter what is the speed OR direction of the source. so the dopler effect manifests trough change of wavelanght. in other words if the obhect is heading away the light that iminates from it would be shifted to the red end of the spectre and if the objects is closing in it would have moved thowards the blue end. this is however experienced only at high relativistic speeds that we do nor see here. actualy the ropedo is quite white-bluish from all sides and throughout its vivible trajectory. if it was moving fast enough (from relative aspect) to have visible shifts in wave lenght we could not have detected it by naked eye. or if it accelerated to relativisitic+ speeds that would mean that the asteroid is so far away that it's even larger (several light seconds away-that would make it moon sized).
you see, right untill this last remarck i thought you actually had some idea of what you are talking about and that other people's remarks on you just throwing away inconsistant statements was simply exagerated. but you seam to lack the knowlidge to grasp some basic concepts (like dopler effect or viewing angles). or maybe you are like Wong. you do have the knowlidge but you only aply it when it suits your purpose?

[antaran_1979]

Ya it is covered with turbolaser watch Revenge of the Sith carefully. ISD alot bigger then Galaxy-class so it is a easier target.

my point exactly. they had the guns and they did not shoot it. it was either to large or to fast or both. either way it does not go to their benefit.

[antaran_1979]

Watch the movies carefully, it shake the Ecoh base when it hit the ground, that proves it is hitting Ecoh base

actually they are fightnig near the shield generators that are outside the Echo Base. and snow is not made of durasteel or neautronium. the last time i looked it was made fro water. but maybe hoth is much colder so leat us say it's frozen CO2. it's still not anywhere near rock, not to mention armor material.

[antaran_1979]

Blasters can blow chunks of wall off ( except for durasteel walls in Star Wars or duracete )

phasers blow up walls

now what do you prefer chunks or walls?