View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #9401
    Minister of Technology
    Posts
    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    dude, there are other asteroids in the vicinity. they would have been exposed to the super-heated "vapor" and the energy emited from the explosion. the explosion is not asociated with the beam. it is conected with the object that neads to be heated up equaly over its entire mass in order to vaporize homogenicaly. since this is vacuum as YOU yourself admit, there si no pressure from the surounding area. this means the asteroid molecules (fragments) each with the internal energy of 1000s of K would scatter at imense speed. they do not in the above scene. up to 50% of the debries (they are note even vapor) remains in the vicinity. the bright flash must follow if the objects get superheated, since they emit secondary radiation. we even see this when asteroids get blown up near the falcon. it's just this flashes are faint. not anywhere near to suport the comparisson with kiloton+ yields.
    Assuming uniform heating in a linear convection methond like you explain requaires megaton level energy to accommadate in a ferrous/nickel asteroid (Type M) of that size. Simple math of mass, melting temperature, and specidfic heat states that. However convection/conduction times for Iron/nickel would turn this into a long process as it just can't pass on the heat fast enough to account for the 1/15th second time we see.

    Simply shattering the asteroid would not do as we would not see the bright explosion. Instead all we would see is an asteroid breaking up, like we do in AOTC.

    However when you factor in work heating it makes perfect sense and is acting properly. The bolt hits with a massive amount of energy. The material at the impact sight is superheated and starts expanding at supersonic speeds. The resutlting vaporizing fragment shatter the asteroid at speeds exceeding sound. Now this effect generates and conductis impressive ammounts of heat while also absorbing immense ammounts of energy for movement. The result is a rapidly vaporizing asteroid thatflares up breifly and seems to disspate in a cloud quickly with no debris. This matches EXACTLY what we see in the movie.

    And this is all proven physics. Common knowledge to Engineers who have any experiences with deformations of metals.

  2. #9402
    Minister of Technology
    Posts
    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    the scene is beyond doubt. one ISD tower-less as a result of asteroid impact. this is what i was getting at when i said Eisenhower may clealry exagerate (or if you like lie) but the Omaha beech guys kno better. and we (and that ISD crew) are the Omaha beech guys.
    No, that is not beyond a doubt. The tower could be obscured by the cloud of debris. We could be falling victim to an optical illusion. If the script says the Avenger and we know later the Avenger has it's Tower, then either there was a repair job made or the tower was never shorn off.

  3. #9403
    Minister of Technology
    Posts
    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    i advise watching the movie lad. the E is 305m long 75m high. this makes the torpedo at least 4m in diameter after it's exit point (the glowing aura). the torpedo goes out of sight LONG before impact. it is still out of sight when it impacts the asteroid. the asteroid takes up to 75% of the screen just before it blows up. the asociated flash is greater then the asteroid, and small heated fragments are blown around in an ever larger radius (out of screen). if my PC runs on 1024*768 resolution and i can't see a pixel of the torpedo 2s before impact well... you do the math. there si now way to determine the size bu it must be at least 300-400m across probably much more.
    First of all that was the Enterprise refit. So yes 305 meters in length, yes. 80 meters tall, and the Worm hole was only slightly larger than it was tall. The Asteroid did not take up even half of the worm hole area, so I will give you 50-60 meters.

    Now the rest of it is where your observation gets lazy. The glow of the torpeo is indead 4 meter when oncoming. However as it gets farter away, you sart geting les and les iof that glow. Especially in a worm hole. By the end of it you are left with the half meter wide glow from the very back of the torpedo. which would matche it up perfectly with a 50-60 meter asteroid. Also note this asteroid was only shattered, not vaporized. need a lot less power to shatter.

    As for the asteroid it is obviously a Type C from it's appearance and thus extreme fragile.

    as for various damage demonstarations, 2 words-variable yealds, strong hulls.
    after all, unlike SW in ST at least there is demonstration of high power yields.
    There might be a demionstration of high power in ST, but he power neded to do the feats is ST are below the low power scenes in SW.

    As for the Torpedo acting like a cannonball in Star Trek VI, you cannot tell me the Bird of Prey started firing low power shots once the shields were down.
    Last edited by TW Scott; 03-27-08 at 04:16 AM.

  4. #9404
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    7,362
    Scott, give it a rest. You're saying the same thing again and again, not comprehending that you, sir, are wrong.

  5. #9405
    Minister of Technology
    Posts
    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Scott, give it a rest. You're saying the same thing again and again, not comprehending that you, sir, are wrong.
    Prove I am wrong. I have provided evidence. All you have done is say i am wrong. Come on, it should be easy.

    Do the math. Look up the density, specific heat and metling temperatures of grantie, iron, nickel, lead, carbon, silicon, and tungsten. make the calculations. See what you get. Do it for 10, 20, 40, 100, 200 meter radius asteroids as novelizations speaks of them. Tell me what you get. It's not that hard.

    I've done the work and not even accounting for energy lost to dispersion, conduction, and fusion, the energy needed far exceeds your estimations. Now you go ahead and do the work and tell me what you get.

    Without the work you are just hot air.

  6. #9406
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
    Posts
    1,447
    [QUOTE=TW Scott;1796999][QUOTE=antaran_1979;1796993]i advise watching the movie lad. the E is 305m long 75m high. this makes the torpedo at least 4m in diameter after it's exit point (the glowing aura). the torpedo goes out of sight LONG before impact. it is still out of sight when it impacts the asteroid. the asteroid takes up to 75% of the screen just before it blows up. the asociated flash is greater then the asteroid, and small heated fragments are blown around in an ever larger radius (out of screen). if my PC runs on 1024*768 resolution and i can't see a pixel of the torpedo 2s before impact well... you do the math. there si now way to determine the size bu it must be at least 300-400m across probably much more.

    First of all that was the Enterprise refit. So yes 305 meters in length, yes. *0 meters tall, and the Worm hole was only slightly larger than it was tall. The Asteroid did not take up even half of the worm hole area, so I will give you 50-60 meters.

    Now the rest of it is where your observation gets lazy. The glow of the torpeo is indead 4 meter when oncoming. However as it gets farter away, you sart geting les and les iof that glow. Especially in a worm hole. By the end of it you are left with the half meter wide glow from the very back of the torpedo. which would matche it up perfectly with a 50-60 meter asteroid. Also note this asteroid was only shattered, not vaporized. need a lot less power to shatter.

    As for the asteroid it is obviously a Type C from it's appearance and thus extreme fragile.



    There might be a demionstration of high power in ST, but he power neded to do the feats is ST are below the low power scenes in SW.

    As for the Torpedo acting like a cannonball in Star Trek VI, you cannot tell me the Bird of Prey started firing low power shots once the shields were down.
    the wormhole size is undeterminable
    the torpedo (as usual) even grows up for the first several frames of its travel. it moves away yet do not loses size. wormjoles obsures torpedo glow? where did you get that idea. the torpedo is brighter then the asreroid? and yes the asteroid is blasted into tiny white-hot beats. the asteroids in ESB get fragmanted (not vaporised-most certanly not in any linear method). all supersonic heating would eventualy result in resonant shockwave when transiting through normal matter or even neutron matter. that is why TL and Phaser efects can not be described with thermodynamics. the objects do no not exibit ANY themal properties. it must be some EXOTIC efect that causes matter to decompose without resulting explosion. DO take notice that this is space nad no fireball should be present aas such. but any high energy/presure object should be hurled away from the center at high speed. this does not happen with ether asteroids fired upon by TL or crust drilled by phasers. even the CUBE in Q-Who does not suffer from seconday explosions oe fires. it just "phases out". and we know Borg cubes to be made of tritanium-very hard and melting resistant material.

  7. #9407
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
    Posts
    1,447
    we have no way of knowing how strong the hull of E-A is. nor the yeald of this klingon torpedo. and if you really nead to hear it the shiel was "colapsing" it has not yet "colapsed". that is why they were rushing to modify that torpedo. they did not know how many shots could they take. and there is always the possibility of critical strikes or casulties.

  8. #9408
    Minister of Technology
    Posts
    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    the wormhole size is undeterminable
    Unless you actually pay attention to the scene. In which case it is evident that it is not much larger around that the Enterprise E is tall. Perhaps a extra 20-30 meters for 100-110 meters.

    the torpedo (as usual) even grows up for the first several frames of its travel. it moves away yet do not loses size.
    Okay, this is where most people look at what you wrote and scratch their head. Your falling victim to perspective again. It doesn't seem to shrink all that much as it moves along as it seems even torpedoes have to accellerate. Now the Torpedo is not actually growing but the radiance and perspective make it seem that way.

    wormholes obsures torpedo glow? where did you get that idea. the torpedo is brighter then the asreroid?
    First of all did you not notice the visual distortions cuased by the wormhole. I know the rest of us did.

    Secondly as the torpedo gets farther away the radiance of the shielding on the Photon torpedo doesn't actually shrink, but less would reach the eyes of someone behind it. The light that is shining outwards has farther to travel to reach the observer. So we are getting the stuff that is heading our direction, and not as much for angles. This means at distances they show, we would be seeing just a little more than the tail end, if that.

    and yes the asteroid is blasted into tiny white-hot beats. the asteroids in ESB get fragmanted (not vaporised-most certanly not in any linear method).
    Yes the asteroid in TMP gets blown into white glowing particles, and large ones to be visble form a distance.

    The ones is ESB are vaporized as we see NO particles just clouds of superheated rock vapor.


    all supersonic heating would eventualy result in resonant shockwave when transiting through normal matter or even neutron matter. that is why TL and Phaser efects can not be described with thermodynamics. the objects do no not exibit ANY themal properties. it must be some EXOTIC efect that causes matter to decompose without resulting explosion. DO take notice that this is space nad no fireball should be present aas such. but any high energy/presure object should be hurled away from the center at high speed. this does not happen with ether asteroids fired upon by TL or crust drilled by phasers. even the CUBE in Q-Who does not suffer from seconday explosions oe fires. it just "phases out". and we know Borg cubes to be made of tritanium-very hard and melting resistant material.
    Okay, first of the work heating I described is a an excepted part of thermodynamics. The fireballs in space that were the asteroids in ESB are just super heated metal vapor. Not only that but we can see in movies and tv series that both Turbolasers and Phasers have a thermal effect. So on the last point you are just simply wrong.

    Your arguments are the worst type of misinformed science and are clearly wrong, though I do commend you on at least remaining civil.
    Last edited by TW Scott; 03-27-08 at 02:49 PM.

  9. #9409
    Minister of Technology
    Posts
    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    we have no way of knowing how strong the hull of E-A is. nor the yeald of this klingon torpedo. and if you really nead to hear it the shiel was "colapsing" it has not yet "colapsed". that is why they were rushing to modify that torpedo. they did not know how many shots could they take. and there is always the possibility of critical strikes or casulties.
    Okay, then if the shields were intact the torpedo should have detonated outside of the ship. As fior the hardness of Tritanium, we have no clue, but given evidence we have seen, it seems the material is more energy resistant than it is physically strong.

  10. #9410
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    7,362
    Scott, no, I'm not going to "prove" it because it has been done. Again, and again, and again. And each time you simply ignore it because you cannot counter it. Fess up - you can't win.

    And stop with the perspective BS and pretending to be a master of sciences in thermodynamics. Your math has been flawed the entire argument, you inflate numbers to get the results you want, and you simply ignore canon facts taken straight out of the movies.

    It Is Over.

    Fine'

  11. #9411
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
    Posts
    1,447
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Okay, then if the shields were intact the torpedo should have detonated outside of the ship. As fior the hardness of Tritanium, we have no clue, but given evidence we have seen, it seems the material is more energy resistant than it is physically strong.
    eh who mentioned intact? i said "colapsingg".

    as for the physics argument... well look at the caps. steroids are
    turned to vapor. there are visible microscopic debries in the place where they were seconds ago and they move slowly away. judging from the size of the debries the could be up to 60cm in diameter. and we are actually given the hardness of tritanium in an eposode. if i recall it is 20+ times harder then diamond.

    as for your optical review on the torpedo (we see less o its front )i advise finding a highschool book on physics. the torpedo is a raidal optical source laddy. it's glow should diminish with range as it does. being invisible after some time means only one thing. it's too far off to be seen. on could try and pretend to be a scientist and calculate the range the torpedo traveled but since we don't have camera distance or angle it would be mostly speculation.

  12. #9412
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    7,362
    We can give a torpedo's size in the fact that it's just big enough to fit a klingon female in *shrugs*

  13. #9413
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
    Posts
    1,447
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    We can give a torpedo's size in the fact that it's just big enough to fit a klingon female in *shrugs*

    the glowing orbs (speculated as shielding) are mostly quite larger then the casing. in this case the glow is at least 4m wide. something that should be clearly visible against the asteroid if it was smaller then 200m.note how in Wrath of Khan the Reliant is tiny when she pursuits Enterprise but the glow can still be seen from far off. this estemates the lower size for that rock. the casing is some 2m in lenght.

  14. #9414
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
    Posts
    1,447
    on wormholes, somehow they always apear "conformal". there is no way at least in this case to mesure its "throat". had the camera abandoned the wprmhole for a minute wile focusing on Enterprise we migh have known. from what we see on screen the view point is at times more then 50m far from the ship and still inside the wormhole. If enterprise is 140m wide this would make the "throat" at least 240m across. this gives us a 180m asteroid. and this is the apsolute minimum.

  15. #9415
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    7,362
    Oh, the glowing bit, alrighty XD

  16. #9416
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
    Posts
    1,447
    concerning thermal effects of TLs and Phasers. there is no doubt that some portion of their power comes from heet. it's just that it's most likely a small portion compared to the total destuctive power. all vaporizations on screen are unusualy "cold". Captain Tyrell vanishes in a blaze while Checkov stands nearby intact. tyrel should have boiled and exploded (since there is air to heet around). the astroids seam to explode from within. no method of transfer of energy known to man provides this efect. how come parts further then the impact become hotter or equaly hot. supersonic heeting is not the answer. if enrgy transfers faster then sound it will shutter the object. there for we must assume a fictional energy carrier .

  17. #9417
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    7,362
    There is always Quantum Entanglement... that's a fun one. Maybe that'd explain the effects we see?

  18. #9418
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
    Posts
    1,447
    Quantum Mechanics is a bit tricky to tackle. but even if it explains the instant energy transfer, it still falls short on the lack of secondary heet emisions.

    if a was to offer a fictional solution (for fun fiction or novelization) i'd say these weapons emite some particles that pass through matter like neutrinos do, but disrupt some of the forces holding molecules or atoms together. seing how the energy released in the process is small in all examples witnissed, i'd guess they disrupt the weak nuclear force. or maybe they disrupt the EM or strong nuclear but take away most of this released energy, undergoing some conversion themselves. yes this might be it. it would explain why the chain reaction is limited in scope and short in duration. the other component of the beams could be anything from high energy gamma photons, ionised particles (protons, alpha particles), anything that could increase the termal energy of the system by a small amount, providing the scatering efect.

  19. #9419
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Hello, the surrouding space is vaccuum. Contrary to though a Asteroid belt would be less dusty than empty space as the gravity of the asteroid would accumulate the excess dust. Also that asteroid is clearing being vaporized as we see NO FRAGMENTS. Even so such a rapid fragmentation, if it occured, would be due to work heating and thus also vaporized.

    As for the bright flash of light associated with explosives, just not present in a beam weapon.

    Also the bolts seen in these scenes would be the EXTREME LOW END of the Turbolaser scale. If you spotted them shooting at something and failing to destroy something, then you could start calculating a high end.

    So my assessment of 12.5 gigatons per heavy turbolaser, as the ICS said the Accalamator could produce 200 gigatons from it's eight Double barreled heavy Turbolaser Turrets, stands as canon.


    Looks like fragments to me. (i magnified the section somewhat, inverted the colors and maxed out the brightness and contrast to make them stand out more, but they can plainly be seen in the original pic)

    *edit* having read the next page of the thread, i guess thats what you were refering to as superheated rock vapor. however, shouldn't super heated rock vapor be glowing... and less dense looking than that?
    Last edited by Flectarn; 03-27-08 at 10:51 AM.

  20. #9420
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    7,362
    That asteroid was merely cracked... we have weapons TODAY that could manage that effect with little effort.

    PHASERS, in Star Trek, stand for PHASed Energy Rectification weapon. From my understanding, they can be set to heat up a large pile of rocks for warmth, cook food, light a fire, stun a human being, kill with pure energy, or vaporize a small house with a single shot. This leads me to believe they somehow attack the object at the sub-atomic level.

Similar Threads

  1. By Fettman in forum SciFi & Fantasy
    Last Post: 10-18-11, 02:02 PM
    Replies: 33
  2. By USS Athens in forum SciFi & Fantasy
    Last Post: 03-16-10, 04:47 PM
    Replies: 291
  3. By superstring01 in forum SciFi & Fantasy
    Last Post: 03-11-10, 01:57 PM
    Replies: 60
  4. By Orleander in forum SciFi & Fantasy
    Last Post: 07-11-09, 08:33 PM
    Replies: 27
  5. By Asguard in forum Computer Science & Culture
    Last Post: 09-13-08, 02:15 AM
    Replies: 0

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •