Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Hellblade8]

No, I was saying that if you kill a half-dozen 8472, they would retreat, like they did in Scorpion.

I just disproved this with logic. They were afraid of the new weapon that the Borg had gained. In fact, they just watched as about ten of their bioships was defeated by a ship armed with biomolecular warheads, which was also generations behind the borg in technology.

That's like watching someone's fighter drop six of your warships, and then watching as their dreadnoughts arrive on the scene. You run.

[Saquist]

Because they were shooting for days, the guns were bound to overheat.

And they were using the guns for days. The Hoth field is murderous, if you are big as an ISD, you are bound to be hit. No defense system is perfect.

Yet your statement is unnecessarily exagerative even if it was for "days"
which I don't believe.
There is no reason I can see from canon that the ship shouldn't have shot down the asteroid if it was capable of the fire power which the star wars camp says.

Everything else is speculation and strictly uncanon.
Of course that speculation is inferrior in a vs discussion. You can not confirm your theory nor will it ever be confirmed. It's useless.

[TW Scott]

i agree that the ISDs had no bussines being there. they are just so easy to hit. but there is no indication they were weaponless. the ISD that pursued the Falcon was capable of firing and they wee allready exiting the field in their pursuit, which leads to the conclusion that they actualy went through more asteroids to get there.
there are several posibilities as to why the did not fire though...

1. the asteroid was comming in to fast. either to fast for their main guns (since this was a large asteroid) or to fast for their targeting systems.
2. it was coming in from a blind spot. not likely since ISDs are seamingly covered with bateries on all sides. however since this was a much larger asteroid the all shot before they maybe neaded to shot it with their main guns. these guns are on lateral broad side placements and there is just no way they can cover this high + y axis angle.
3. since this asteroid was to big to destroy dey desided not to bother shooting it but instead divert full power to shields or something.

i personaly favor a combination of 1 and 2. the possibity 4 would be that the imperials are utterly incompetant, but that makes no sence.

Missed one. Possibility that more were incoming than available charged turbolasers. Given the scene that is the most likely.

BTW it is of note that no ISDs were reported lost in the Hoth Asteroid belt. Not even when they battles the space slug. The Asteroid might have taken out the bridge tower, but as everyone knows there is mosre than one station from which you can control a vessel.

[TW Scott]

i don't think there is an official explanation why the Borg can't adapt to the species 8472. at least not that i can remember. i don't have all the Voyager episodes on disk. if someone has them they may enlighten us.

Actually, it is that the Borg need to assimiliate some data from a species to understand the technology before they can adapt. This was impossible with Species 8472 and was noted as such by Janeway to the Borg. This means until the Borg manage to download proper data or assimilate the right people that a set of unique weapons will work on them indefinately. At best the Borg can increase their shielding and try new ideas, but that is like playing darts blindfolded and dizzy.

[TW Scott]

you've had a double dose of gasoline for today eh? if the shields were stron enogh why did the tower blow up to pieces smaller then couple of meters? i single photon torpedo would have reduced that asteroid to ashes...

Actually if Lucas says that is a the Avenger that took the Asteroid, then the Asteroid did not vaporize the bridge tower as later the Avenger is seen chasing the Falcon with a FULLY INTACT BRIDGE TOWER.

Thus any argument of what it looks like in the scene goes away, explainable as a cloud of dust blocking the LOS to the twoer.

[TW Scott]

take a close look at the blast and the bolts. the blast do not cause vaporization at all. the actually defragment the asteroids which after that slowly desperse at slow rates. there is no flash that would be asociated to kiloton, megaton or gigaton explosions. the surounding area remains inert and unafected.

Hello, the surrouding space is vaccuum. Contrary to though a Asteroid belt would be less dusty than empty space as the gravity of the asteroid would accumulate the excess dust. Also that asteroid is clearing being vaporized as we see NO FRAGMENTS. Even so such a rapid fragmentation, if it occured, would be due to work heating and thus also vaporized.

As for the bright flash of light associated with explosives, just not present in a beam weapon.

Also the bolts seen in these scenes would be the EXTREME LOW END of the Turbolaser scale. If you spotted them shooting at something and failing to destroy something, then you could start calculating a high end.

So my assessment of 12.5 gigatons per heavy turbolaser, as the ICS said the Accalamator could produce 200 gigatons from it's eight Double barreled heavy Turbolaser Turrets, stands as canon.

[Kittamaru]

Oh goddamn... I'm gone a week and we get a new set of people with no idea what they're talking about and, to make matters worse, TW Crazyeyes is back...

Meh, put it to rest guys. We've proven, time and again despite all the kicking and screaming - while Star Wars is a GREAT SCIENCE FANTASY world... Star Trek would simply kick it across the map.

[TW Scott]

Oh goddamn... I'm gone a week and we get a new set of people with no idea what they're talking about and, to make matters worse, TW Crazyeyes is back...

Meh, put it to rest guys. We've proven, time and again despite all the kicking and screaming - while Star Wars is a GREAT SCIENCE FANTASY world... Star Trek would simply kick it across the map.

Star Trek is no less Science Fantasy and in fact is far less realistic than Star Wars to be truthfull. Though I am sorry Kittamaru the numbers do not lie in a full out war Star Wars wins every time.

[Hellblade8]

Star Trek is no less Science Fantasy and in fact is far less realistic than Star Wars to be truthfull. Though I am sorry Kittamaru the numbers do not lie in a full out war Star Wars wins every time.

Despite the fact that we've provided several quotes from George Lucas declaring EU and the rest non-canon and your side has shown nothing other than to dry and (poorly) deny that these quotes state what anyone with grade school education in english could?

[Saquist]

It doesn't really matter...I'm surprised you guys respond to TW anymore.
Most of everything he's delivered has been debunked throughly. Galaxy phasers are up to 60 times that of a turbo laser. One needs not figure the actual number, just compare their best shots. The Wong method of ESB evaluation dies in comparison.

Kitt is right. Trek Trumps War in fire power. It's undeniable by any but those in denial. TW never comes up with a counter argument...It's like a seeing John Claude Van Dam movies....it's the same crap, we've seen...over, and over.........and over again.

[TW Scott]

Despite the fact that we've provided several quotes from George Lucas declaring EU and the rest non-canon and your side has shown nothing other than to dry and (poorly) deny that these quotes state what anyone with grade school education in english could?

No, what you have provided is quotes from George that states that he is telling a story and does not want to be bothered by making it correct by EU so has said that where his movies and EU disagree, his movies are correct.

But I will quote something of Gene Roddenberry. "It is not Star Trek until I say it is." Which would give me the ammunition to say nothing after his death could be considered canon. You don't see me doing that though. You know why? Becuase it's a cop out. A cheat. Just like what you are doing.

Star Wars could defeat Star Trek on the movies alone, but this conversation is about the universes.

[antaran_1979]

I know 8472's weakness: They are gutless. Kill a half-dozen off them and they retreat. Like in Scorpion.

well if you call that a weakness
live to fight another day is often an advantage. they would have destroyed Earth if Janeway did not make peace with them. this shows they retreated with the intention of striking back

[antaran_1979]

Missed one. Possibility that more were incoming than available charged turbolasers. Given the scene that is the most likely.

BTW it is of note that no ISDs were reported lost in the Hoth Asteroid belt. Not even when they battles the space slug. The Asteroid might have taken out the bridge tower, but as everyone knows there is mosre than one station from which you can control a vessel.

hardly. NONE of the ships or guns were firing.
as for the ability to controll a starship from other points of command, i say why not. i just wonder what could a single torpedo do to that tower, and ST TMP sjows that one torpedo would have totaly oblitersted the asteroid

[antaran_1979]

Actually if Lucas says that is a the Avenger that took the Asteroid, then the Asteroid did not vaporize the bridge tower as later the Avenger is seen chasing the Falcon with a FULLY INTACT BRIDGE TOWER.

Thus any argument of what it looks like in the scene goes away, explainable as a cloud of dust blocking the LOS to the twoer.

this is like Eisenhower saying that operation Overlord went without casulties. Eisenhower may say so, but people who were there may beg to differ. and we were there. so were the empirials.
BTW i don't recall Needa being on the hollo briefing. i could be wrong htough. i do have the disk so i'll just check

[TW Scott]

It doesn't really matter...I'm surprised you guys respond to TW anymore.
Most of everything he's delivered has been debunked throughly. Galaxy phasers are up to 60 times that of a turbo laser. One needs not figure the actual number, just compare their best shots. The Wong method of ESB evaluation dies in comparison.

Are you kidding me? Phasers that need five seconds to eat their way through the same volume of loose dirt and soil as the asteroids destroyed in ESB are considered more powerful.

Quick which is shorter 5 seconds or 1/15th second?

Even if the Enterpirise D had been drilling through nickel iron at that speed Phasers would be less than 1/75th as as powerful as the point defense weaponry of a ISD!

If Phasers are so powerful why didn't they use them to blow apart the hollow asteroid that the Pegasus was trapped in? Why did Riker believe it would take the entire compliment (hundreds) of Photon Torpedoes?

If Photon Torpedoes are so powerful why was one launced to the surface in Star Trek V not 20 meters from the Captain? Why didn't the Photon Torpedoes fired by the Bird of Prey vaporize large sections of the Enterprised A after her sheilds were down in Star Trek VI? Why did they act more like cannonballs?

If Star Trek Shields are so impressive why did they believe that a 400 gigawatt blast should be able to knock down their shields, and a second one knock weapons offline?

No Pro-Trekkie has really answered these questions all that well.

As for the aspersions on Wong, well make them all you want, but the man has the technical know how to calculate these things. After all he is an engineer. What credentials do the rest of you have?

Now you can whine and pout all you like, it won't change facts. In an war Star Wars wins over Star Trek. It's nothing to be ashamed of. After all it still put Star Trek as one of the big bad asses on the block. Ahead of such favorites as Babylon 5 and Farscape in the power aspect of it.

[TW Scott]

hardly. NONE of the ships or guns were firing.
as for the ability to controll a starship from other points of command, i say why not. i just wonder what could a single torpedo do to that tower, and ST TMP sjows that one torpedo would have totaly oblitersted the asteroid

Actually there were weapons firing, just before the scene, and off camera. Remember we were not seeing all 16,000 meters of ship at once in that part.

Also in Star trek TMP we never got a size on that asteroid ahead of them in the wormhole. Givient the 200 meter length of the Enterprise A and by extension her short height. That could have been just a twenty meter asteroid itself and the Torpedo shattered it, not vaporized.

As for the tordpedo to the Tower, if that indeed is the Avenger, the asteroid did not make so much as a scratch on the tower. if it another craft i suppose if the ISD lowered her shields and let the Federation fire a torpedo first it would probably do some minor damage. Remember ISD's are heavily armored unlike ST vessels.

[antaran_1979]

Hello, the surrouding space is vaccuum. Contrary to though a Asteroid belt would be less dusty than empty space as the gravity of the asteroid would accumulate the excess dust. Also that asteroid is clearing being vaporized as we see NO FRAGMENTS. Even so such a rapid fragmentation, if it occured, would be due to work heating and thus also vaporized.

As for the bright flash of light associated with explosives, just not present in a beam weapon.

Also the bolts seen in these scenes would be the EXTREME LOW END of the Turbolaser scale. If you spotted them shooting at something and failing to destroy something, then you could start calculating a high end.

So my assessment of 12.5 gigatons per heavy turbolaser, as the ICS said the Accalamator could produce 200 gigatons from it's eight Double barreled heavy Turbolaser Turrets, stands as canon.

dude, there are other asteroids in the vicinity. they would have been exposed to the super-heated "vapor" and the energy emited from the explosion. the explosion is not asociated with the beam. it is conected with the object that neads to be heated up equaly over its entire mass in order to vaporize homogenicaly. since this is vacuum as YOU yourself admit, there si no pressure from the surounding area. this means the asteroid molecules (fragments) each with the internal energy of 1000s of K would scatter at imense speed. they do not in the above scene. up to 50% of the debries (they are note even vapor) remains in the vicinity. the bright flash must follow if the objects get superheated, since they emit secondary radiation. we even see this when asteroids get blown up near the falcon. it's just this flashes are faint. not anywhere near to suport the comparisson with kiloton+ yields.

as for the bolts i agree. these are the lowest bolts we see them firing. even so they are much stronger then the fighter weapons. these bolts at least blast 6m asteroids, the bolts of the fighters don't even dent the asteroids.

however in the chase scene we DO see larger bolts. they behave much in the same manner. after i reframe the RoTJ we could drive a comparison betwean all the bolts fired by the ISDs. i think it is safe to asume the size of the bolt is proportional with their destructive power (a bolt 2 times longer, 2 times wider, 2 time higher is 8 times stronger)?

[TW Scott]

this is like Eisenhower saying that operation Overlord went without casulties. Eisenhower may say so, but people who were there may beg to differ. and we were there. so were the empirials.
BTW i don't recall Needa being on the hollo briefing. i could be wrong htough. i do have the disk so i'll just check

Well, the point is that the Imperials were very good about propagandizing their losses. The Rebellion was only popular outside the Core Worlds. Hell Palapatine even managed to blame the Destruction of Alderaan on the Rebels. Claiming they had so fortified the planet and were already killing the Alderaanians, so the Imperial Navy did what was necessary.

The thing is if that vessel is the Avenger then the Asteroid did NO DAMAGE, becuase we see it intact later. If it is another vessel it lots the conning tower. About a debilitating a loss as losing one on a aircraft carrier. Thanks to redundant cammand centers the ship is still battle worthy.

The only reason it worked in ROTJ is that the brief period it took to get the ship under control was too lat to help it avoid hitting the Death Star II. if nothing had been in the way the Executioner could have limped back into battle or retreated.

[antaran_1979]

Actually there were weapons firing, just before the scene, and off camera. Remember we were not seeing all 16,000 meters of ship at once in that part.

Also in Star trek TMP we never got a size on that asteroid ahead of them in the wormhole. Givient the 200 meter length of the Enterprise A and by extension her short height. That could have been just a twenty meter asteroid itself and the Torpedo shattered it, not vaporized.

As for the tordpedo to the Tower, if that indeed is the Avenger, the asteroid did not make so much as a scratch on the tower. if it another craft i suppose if the ISD lowered her shields and let the Federation fire a torpedo first it would probably do some minor damage. Remember ISD's are heavily armored unlike ST vessels.

i advise watching the movie lad. the E is 305m long 75m high. this makes the torpedo at least 4m in diameter after it's exit point (the glowing aura). the torpedo goes out of sight LONG before impact. it is still out of sight when it impacts the asteroid. the asteroid takes up to 75% of the screen just before it blows up. the asociated flash is greater then the asteroid, and small heated fragments are blown around in an ever larger radius (out of screen). if my PC runs on 1024*768 resolution and i can't see a pixel of the torpedo 2s before impact well... you do the math. there si now way to determine the size bu it must be at least 300-400m across probably much more.

as for various damage demonstarations, 2 words-variable yealds, strong hulls.
after all, unlike SW in ST at least there is demonstration of high powe yields.

[antaran_1979]

Well, the point is that the Imperials were very good about propagandizing their losses. The Rebellion was only popular outside the Core Worlds. Hell Palapatine even managed to blame the Destruction of Alderaan on the Rebels. Claiming they had so fortified the planet and were already killing the Alderaanians, so the Imperial Navy did what was necessary.

The thing is if that vessel is the Avenger then the Asteroid did NO DAMAGE, becuase we see it intact later. If it is another vessel it lots the conning tower. About a debilitating a loss as losing one on a aircraft carrier. Thanks to redundant cammand centers the ship is still battle worthy.

The only reason it worked in ROTJ is that the brief period it took to get the ship under control was too lat to help it avoid hitting the Death Star II. if nothing had been in the way the Executioner could have limped back into battle or retreated.

the scene is beyond doubt. one ISD tower-less as a result of asteroid impact. this is what i was getting at when i said Eisenhower may clealry exagerate (or if you like lie) but the Omaha beech guys kno better. and we (and that ISD crew) are the Omaha beech guys.