View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #9101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    And yet G2k is the one that keeps his cool in a discussion.
    Social Law says I'm likely to entertain that which is offered in an even tone.
    Conversely Wong behaves much as an angry bee defending his territory. It does not encourage a listening attitude.
    Read some of un edited G2K responses to Wong. you can also read his entries on other forunms such as this one and you'll get a better picture. Wong is little pissy, but imagine you have the answers in plain English before you, but some idiots keep flying in the face of science and telling you that you're a moron. You tend to get a little short.

  2. #9102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellblade8 View Post
    Do try not to lie. That isn't what he just said, and he just said they belong to different worlds or universes. So, at most, you could claim that they are all Star Wars, but each one is from a different universe, or dimension. In any case, they would not apply to the movie Star Wars. This is not hard to understand.

    In fact, I have already provided proof where fans of EU are accepting what I have just said. To claim that I am twisting his words is one thing, but when fans of the EU are agreeing with me, it's another. Unless of course, you wish to accuse them of either being biased, or stupid.

    Your credibility doesn't stretch nearly that far.
    Obviously, your head must be wired wrong. he did not say universes as all. In fact the way he put it they were obviously all realted. Though i agree fanon is not canon at all. besides like i said an interview does not negate establihed and excepted canon policy. Not that this one would at all.

    I never said EU has precedence of the movies. However they do tell the background and intervening stories. Which does not make them less canon unless they directly refute the movies. Proof has been provided again and again in this thread, including interviews with Lucas when he spoke of canon.

    Is what I am saying so hard to understand? Movies primary canon. EU Secondary canon.

    You claimed that there was shielding upon the generator when there was none stated to be there in the movie, nor did we see some sort of energy field surronding it, or try to block it. Thus, proof of burden is upon you that there was one.
    We saw the generator from a distance, and wouldn't the shielding of the generator be on the inside where the reaction was taking place? Why yes it would. But to cuase a contianment breach to you have top penetrate those shields as well as the casing.

    Sorry, but there is no shielding around the generator. And the only warpcores in ST history to be shielded is the one on the USS Enterprise E (which we saw), and if I recall correctly, one of the Defiant's (mostly because it kept the core from killing everyone in the room).
    There is shielding on the FRIGGING inside of the warp core. Duh. How do you think the ship keeps from blowing up. Plus the D raised containment fields around the warp core at times as well.


    First off, you need to prove that his calculations are false in order for it to stand in debate when the math is right on the link. You did nothing of the sort.
    The math isn't even nearly right and i have done so several times on this thread. Want it? Go look for it. I posted it a long time ago so i have fulfilled my duty.

    And nuclear weapons seem to explode upon impact, because they are releasing unbelievable energy...see? I can say too! They appear to be exploding, BECAUSE THEY ARE EXPLODING:
    Idiot, a nuclear weapon explodes even before the reaction goes off. However when a beam strikes and object and then starts an instantaeous explosion then you know you are dealing with a high power beam.

    Actually, Wong's calculator claims that it would have been vaporized, which is, I quote:

    Put in 20 meters yourself and see what you get:
    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...Asteroids.html
    To start this off I need to debunk a few things

    Fragmentation energy is the energy required to shatter the asteroid so that no individual fragment exceeds 10 m in diameter. From "Deflection and Fragmentation of Near Earth Asteroids" by T.J. Ahrens and A.W. Harris, it is projected that a 1 kiloton buried explosive will fragment a 100m diameter asteroid (based on experiments with terrestrial igneous rock), a 1 megaton explosive will fragment a 1km diameter asteroid, and a 1 gigaton explosive will fragment a 10km diameter asteroid. Using these figures as a basis, we can produce an approximation Y = (d/100)³, where d is diameter in metres and Y is yield in kilotons. Note that a soft rocky asteroid can actually require as much as three times more energy, because it will tend to break up into larger pieces. Hard rock figures are used in order to be more conservative, and also because reduction into such small fragments is not strictly necessary for our purposes. These figures are good general-use figures, when you're dealing with rocky asteroids and you don't have enough information to categorize them as granite or nickel-iron.
    Darkstar forgot the key part of this. That the explosive would be on the inside of the object to be fragmented. As anyone can tell you trying to fragment it form the outside requires substantially more energy. this does work for both genre's thankfully.

    Granite is not silicon, but the thermophysical properties for elemental silicon are much more readily available than those of granite, so I used those figures for the melt and vapourization energies (the specific heat for granite is 800 J/kgK, which is only 13% higher than the specific heat for silicon, but I haven't been able to locate a source for the latent heat of fusion). The energy required to melt silicon (heat it from 150K to melting point and then add latent heat of fusion) is roughly 2.65 MJ/kg. The energy required to melt and then vapourize it is roughly 13.23 MJ/kg. Density is roughly 2330 kg/m³. If any readers have access to more accurate thermophysical property data on granite, I would appreciate the input.
    With a modicum of research we discover granite has a density of 2750 kilograms per cubic meter. It has a specific heat of 294 joules per kilogram. It has a metling temperature of ~1215K. 20 meter diameter asteroid would mass 11,519,173.06 kg and take 4,792,091,186,006.26 joules to heat from space temperatures to melting temperature. That translates to 0.899923227 megatons. Now note this is without latent fusion energy and does not take in losses due to conduction.

    With little effort I found TWO huge glaring errors with his calculator.

    BTW we saw a 40 meter across asteroid vaped in ESB, but know others were vaped in novelization, some as big as 200 meters. For the largely nickel-iron asteroids they appear to be that would take 5,605 megatons at the minimum.








    No you don't. Whenever we get in an argument, you put up a fight, I debunk you, and then you either ignore my posts until everyone else points it out and leave, or you just leave.
    Like I said the day you debunk me, is the day you get a ticker tape parade, which i will gladly Grand Marshall.

    you have not disproved anything I have claimed, though you have proved, through concession one point below.



    Never once have you ever argued against my posts when they have defeated your claims. You just try to act as if it wasn't there.
    You've never defeated them.



    So let me guess, the villian of Whom God's Destroy (who was an insane man and was locked up just before the Enterprise got there) not only outfitted an entire colony with planetary shields, that by your claim that no other man in the UFP could do it, and then he somehow, by magic, put this shield over another penial colony lightyears away in Dagger of the Mind?

    Yes, I'm sure that's the explination.



    No it wasn't. There are two seperat colonies with two seperate planetary shields lightyears away. In Dagger of the Mind, the crew wasn't at all surprised that the colony had a planetary shield, and Kirk even lectured the the transporter officer when he forgot to call the colony and ask them to lower the shield.

    And then in the Lights of Zetar, Memory Alpha is under attack, and Kirk asks them if they had a planetary shield, and he was told that no, it didn't. Why would he expect it to have a shield if such things were beyond even UFP technology?
    Okay so two incidents of planetary sheilds, but we haven't seen a single one in the Federation, Klingon, Cardassian, Dominion, or Romulan world with shields. Where did they go? Come on, you can tell me. Besides those three mentions we have not heard of or seen a planetary shild except on distinct on nonaligned worlds. And in fact the other shields are easily explained as shields for the facilities. Which is understandable as shields for a base, penal colony or insane asylum Though in the later two cases it could have been as simple as a low level feild to block transporters.

    I will concede the possibility of planetary shields for Star Trek, but they would be scaled for the weak sheilds ST has.

  3. #9103
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    And yet G2k is the one that keeps his cool in a discussion.
    Social Law says I'm likely to entertain that which is offered in an even tone.
    Conversely Wong behaves much as an angry bee defending his territory. It does not encourage a listening attitude.
    He also immaturely re-directs G2k's website links to porn sites. (Dangerous ones I might add).

    And doesn't he hack people?

  4. #9104
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    1,099
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Obviously, your head must be wired wrong. he did not say universes as all. In fact the way he put it they were obviously all realted. Though i agree fanon is not canon at all. besides like i said an interview does not negate establihed and excepted canon policy. Not that this one would at all.
    YOU do not agree? How can you say what Lucas is right or wrong about? His word is FACT when it comes to SW. Furthermore, we are not the only people who think this:

    http://forums.starwars.com/thread.js...64758&tstart=0

    And again, he said there were three different worlds, and then he put HIS MOVIES IN ONE, and the EU IN ANOTHER!

    I never said EU has precedence of the movies. However they do tell the background and intervening stories. Which does not make them less canon unless they directly refute the movies. Proof has been provided again and again in this thread, including interviews with Lucas when he spoke of canon.
    Really now, I've never seen this, would you care to provide these interviews in which Lucas confirms taht they are canon?

    Is what I am saying so hard to understand? Movies primary canon. EU Secondary canon.
    No, it isn't hard to undestand what you're saying. What you're saying just happens to be wrong, as by the evidence others and myself have posted in this forum.

    We saw the generator from a distance, and wouldn't the shielding of the generator be on the inside where the reaction was taking place? Why yes it would. But to cuase a contianment breach to you have top penetrate those shields as well as the casing.
    Sorry, but we have no evidence of shielding. No one mentioned that there was a shield over the generator, and we so no evidence of one. Thus, there was no shield...how is that hard to understand. Simply trying to talk your way out of having to prove it won't work. Prove that there was a shield with imperical evidence, or conceede.

    There is shielding on the FRIGGING inside of the warp core.
    Never heard of that...can you prove it?

    Duh. How do you think the ship keeps from blowing up.
    Not sure, why don't you post some evidence that supports your thesis.

    Plus the D raised containment fields around the warp core at times as well.
    I don't recall that ever. Only the Enterprise E has ever put up a shield around its warpcore.


    The math isn't even nearly right and i have done so several times on this thread. Want it? Go look for it. I posted it a long time ago so i have fulfilled my duty.
    Sorry, you claimed it was wrong, so you have to back up your claim. I am not going through 400+ pages to find your proof.

    Idiot, a nuclear weapon explodes even before the reaction goes off. However when a beam strikes and object and then starts an instantaeous explosion then you know you are dealing with a high power beam.


    SW lasers are always exploding. Check out the battle scene in Attack of the Clones, the lasers were going off like made before they even HIT anything.

    To start this off I need to debunk a few things



    Darkstar forgot the key part of this. That the explosive would be on the inside of the object to be fragmented. As anyone can tell you trying to fragment it form the outside requires substantially more energy. this does work for both genre's thankfully.
    Really? Then I guess Wong must have too, because his site says that you can also destroy a 10km meteor with 1 gigation:

    Fragmentation energy is the energy required to shatter the asteroid so that no individual fragment exceeds 10 m in diameter. From "Deflection and Fragmentation of Near Earth Asteroids" by T.J. Ahrens and A.W. Harris, it is projected that a 1 kiloton buried explosive will fragment a 100m diameter asteroid (based on experiments with terrestrial igneous rock), a 1 megaton explosive will fragment a 1km diameter asteroid, and a 1 gigaton explosive will fragment a 10km diameter asteroid. Using these figures as a basis, we can produce an approximation Y = (d/100)³, where d is diameter in metres and Y is yield in kilotons. Note that a soft rocky asteroid can actually require as much as three times more energy, because it will tend to break up into larger pieces. Hard rock figures are used in order to be more conservative, and also because reduction into such small fragments is not strictly necessary for our purposes. These figures are good general-use figures, when you're dealing with rocky asteroids and you don't have enough information to categorize them as granite or nickel-iron


    With a modicum of research we discover granite has a density of 2750 kilograms per cubic meter. It has a specific heat of 294 joules per kilogram. It has a metling temperature of ~1215K. 20 meter diameter asteroid would mass 11,519,173.06 kg and take 4,792,091,186,006.26 joules to heat from space temperatures to melting temperature. That translates to 0.899923227 megatons. Now note this is without latent fusion energy and does not take in losses due to conduction.
    ARe you also saying that Wong is wrong as well? Furthermore, that would also mean that UFP weapons would have to do the same, and they would still come out on top (as the antimatter explosions would have to take this into account, as would the phasers ect.).

    Basicly, you aren't increasing your side higher than ST, you're just raising the levels of both.

    And again, even if we were to take your calculations...it would still trail behind phasers and photon torps by a large gap.

    With little effort I found TWO huge glaring errors with his calculator.
    And, apparently with Wongs.

    BTW we saw a 40 meter across asteroid vaped in ESB, but know others were vaped in novelization, some as big as 200 meters. For the largely nickel-iron asteroids they appear to be that would take 5,605 megatons at the minimum.
    1. Prove that there was a 200 meter asteroid

    2. That would only take 59.9 megatons to vaporize.





    Like I said the day you debunk me, is the day you get a ticker tape parade, which i will gladly Grand Marshall.

    you have not disproved anything I have claimed, though you have proved, through concession one point below.
    Sorry, but you failing to ever to counter my points does not make you a winner.


    Okay so two incidents of planetary sheilds, but we haven't seen a single one in the Federation, Klingon, Cardassian, Dominion, or Romulan world with shields. Where did they go? Come on, you can tell me.
    Nowhere, they're still there. It was made canon long ago, so thus, it is still canon. Such a thing has never been declared non-canon in the history of Trek.

    Besides those three mentions we have not heard of or seen a planetary shild except on distinct on nonaligned worlds.
    The UFP owned those two colonies (one of which had their former captains on it), and the third was mentioned by Kirk, who even asked if it had a shield. Again, if it was so rare, why would Kirk believe it was likely they had one?



    And in fact the other shields are easily explained as shields for the facilities. Which is understandable as shields for a base, penal colony or insane asylum
    Sorry, but this was never stated. Ever. In fact, in Whom Gods Destroy, the planet was said to specifically have a shield over the entire planet.

    Though in the later two cases it could have been as simple as a low level feild to block transporters.
    If that was the case, why didn't the crew just land on the planet's surface and then beam into the area they wanted to get to? Your whole claim falls apart, not to mention that Scotty was considering blasting through one of the shields.

    I will concede the possibility of planetary shields for Star Trek, but they would be scaled for the weak sheilds ST has.
    If by weak, you mean a shit load stronger than SW ones, then yes.
    Last edited by Hellblade8; 03-24-08 at 02:20 AM.

  5. #9105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellblade8 View Post
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I was very receptive too, he has that talent of sounding reasonable...at first. As he went on...things became a bit wanky. He declared that a small ship like the Slave I could easily obliterate the Enterprise...something that my brain just screamed no against. I had seen both shows and movies, and I knew that the Slave I just didn't have that kind of firepower. Granted, that mine would have been a nasty surprise for the Enterprise D, but nothing she couldn't handle.

    And then as I read on, he got more and more outlandishly stupid about shit. He said one thing was wrong for the other side to do, and then did it himself. He claimed that his opponents were so far behind them in firepower, it wasn't even funny.

    He was a biased bigot.
    Or maybe he was just a little too truthful for you. The seismic charges on Slave I alone were enough to pulverize asteroids in a several hundred kilometer radius. Or didn;t you see that seen in AOTC. I know everyone else did. Just that weaponf would cut the Enterprise D in half.


    Exactly, G2k whispers where as Wong shouts. Human nature tells us to believe the one who isn't fronting at the mouth...and there's a reason for that. G2k treated it less like it was life and death, was funny, and he didn't have an air of crazy as shit that Wong did.
    Human nature should tell you to distrust the person who whispers. After all they are the ones who will knife you in the back.



    Want proof?

    "He's really good at appearing reasonable while making the most ridiculous claims. I caught myself about to fall for one earlier. Won't happen again, but it's unnerving." - Rogue 9 (forum user)

    "Dear God, this man is clearly insane." - SomethingAwful.Com on Darkstar

    "But as the saying goes, "if the facts are against you, argue the law ... if the law is against you, argue the facts ... if the facts and the law are against you, yell like hell." Highwind, et al., that's your cue. I've made my point." - Darkstar accusing Star Trek writer Mike Sussman of dishonesty for disagreeing with him about the ENT episode "The Augments" (note: Mike Sussman wrote that episode, and Darkstar would subsequently demand that his words be deleted from memory-alpha.org).
    "While I hardly ever post on any forum but my own, I felt it was necessary to convey this exciting message to you guys. Mr. Star decided to email me regarding my choice to profile him for today's ALoD, mostly based off the fact that he's loony. However, just to be up front and honest, I think this site is equally insane and most of you people are nutso as well. However, you don't seem to suffer the extreme paranoia and schizophrenia that Mr. Star seems to be inflicted with.
    ...
    Hello,

    (Pardon my use of a Yahoo address, but my webhost's POP3 system doesn't seem to like somethingawful.co*)

    Er, "thanks" for the site recognition, and the newsflash that it's a dorky topic.

    That, we already knew. I'm just in it for the idle pastime . . . there are a lot weirder pastimes out there (creationism, that "sex with dolphins" guy,
    and the "malarkey or effective way" guy come screaming to mind).

    What should've really freaked you out, though, wasn't the existence of a site on the topic (good grief, what topic *doesn't* have a website?), or
    even my new site on the topic. What should really freak you out is this:

    1. The author of www.h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html (the oldest and oddest website on the topic) openly fantasizes about killing me over the debate and our difference of opinion in regards to it (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=39...ews.com&rnum=1).

    2. The author of www.stardestroyer.net (a several-years-old "Star Wars fanboys are pure evil" site with way more "grease amount" than my own) takes the debate so personally that:
    A. he feels it necessary to harass the educators of those he disagrees with
    (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...l/Kennedy.html)
    B. he insults those who criticize Star Wars in any way
    (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Brin.html)
    C. he and his web board participants are so twisted that the majority of them don't believe the quintessential science-fiction "evil empire" is evil.
    (http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWscary.html).
    D. he created "hate mail" pages specifically in reference to me, which link to a page containing all the personal information he and his flunkies
    could find about me (This was even before my new site went up, but after the same fellow complained about people harassing him with threatening phone calls and such).
    . . . and so on.


    My site may be "something awful", but those guys are something worse.
    I'm not going to even bother replying to him, as posting on this forum is going at least nine steps further than I normally go in response to an ALoD. But hey, I thought you guys might get a kick out of it, so there you go." - "Lowtax" from SomethingAwful.Com on Darkstar's response to being an Awful Link of the Day (predictably, RSA responded by trying to convince SomethingAwful.Com that Wayne Poe and myself are the real crazies). I suppose it bears noting that Lowtax considers all hardcore sci-fi sites to be crazy, with some justification , but there is a difference between being a sci-fi fanatic and being an actual paranoid schizo, and anyone who observes RSA in any detail will inevitably conclude that he is indeed a few cards short of a full deck.
    http://www.daltonator.net/fuq/trolls/g2k.html

  6. #9106
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    Quote Originally Posted by USS Enterprise-B View Post
    He also immaturely re-directs G2k's website links to porn sites. (Dangerous ones I might add).

    And doesn't he hack people?
    neither allegation was proven.

  7. #9107
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellblade8 View Post
    He declared that a small ship like the Slave I could easily obliterate the Enterprise...something that my brain just screamed no against. I had seen both shows and movies, and I knew that the Slave I just didn't have that kind of firepower. Granted, that mine would have been a nasty surprise for the Enterprise D, but nothing she couldn't handle.
    I remeber having to read that several times to make sure I had not gone dyslexic in the middle of a sentence.

    And then as I read on, he got more and more outlandishly stupid about shit. He said one thing was wrong for the other side to do, and then did it himself. He claimed that his opponents were so far behind them in firepower, it wasn't even funny.
    He was a biased bigot.
    Having experienced Wong first...going to G2k was like a breath of fresh air. As I read I noticed the same thing of Wong that G2k observed and rember thinking..."I'm glad it's not just me!"



    Exactly, G2k whispers where as Wong shouts. Human nature tells us to believe the one who isn't fronting at the mouth...and there's a reason for that. G2k treated it less like it was life and death, was funny, and he didn't have an air of crazy as shit that Wong did.
    Wong even has a creationism vs evolution on his site. Now I have a different side than either ideas...but seeing that he had somehow fit this into his sci fi debate disturbed me and it began to explain his oppressive attitude on the sci fi debate. It really was equal to a evolution debate. We're talking at best sci fantasy in star wars....This isn't the fate of the universe.

    G2k was almost...PC and playful, nonchalant. And much of his reason was easy to see he didn't have to slap you with his logic to understand it.



    That much is certain. I for one, am not too sure on his Rise calculations, as they are somewhat based on a photon coming toward the camera, and his expliantion for it kind of loss me, but I could see where he was coming from. That's why I used the Trekspert calcs, and chose the higher yield of the two presented: because it was fairly close to G2k's and had an alternative method to it. I also treat the Daystrom Institute with a fair amount of respect, although I don't always agree with what they say either.
    Good, I had the same thoughts on the "Rise" calculations. I hate translating from 2D into 3D measures and I've often found him just a bit TOO litteral.

    I didn't agree on the Nemesis Enterprise Scimitar Colision thing nor the amount of ships he says Trek has. I think he says some where between 8 to 10 thousands or something. I think it's closer to 20,000 to 25,000 starships just between Excellsior and Galaxy alone according to registry. I think the ships stick around much longer than he suggest.

    All in all, ST prodebaters tend to be more sane, realistic, and don't claim god-like firepower just so their sci-fi could win (although we could if we wanted to).
    The Star Trek Fan boys can get to me too. They're abit over zealous. it's...admirable but temperable.

  8. #9108
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Enterprise-B View Post
    He also immaturely re-directs G2k's website links to porn sites. (Dangerous ones I might add).

    And doesn't he hack people?
    yeah I remember seeing that link...He takes up some shady practices.

  9. #9109
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    1,447
    do you people get payed by word?

    some one on this board (i can't keep up) wrote:
    "And I told you, nowhere in there did Lucas say 'THE EU ISN'T CANON!' He was talking about how his movies are superior."

    i agree, and if the movies show the weapons as less destructive then we must accept them as such.

    now a little deal-breaker for all you would be physicists:
    definition of MT:A unit of explosive force equal to that of one million metric tons of TNT.

    you read this lads? it has nothing to do with weapon yealds, charge, capacity,power or energy emissions. it is the explosive effect the weapon has on a target. i don't recall seaing multi megaton or even kiloton explosions in SW or ST. well maybe in ST the motion picture when they destroy that asteroid, or the Alderan destruction in the original version.so get back some 50-90 pages. i'll review the ESB again this evening to provide you with caps from it.

    BTW i am allowed to post those right?

  10. #9110
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    1,099
    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    I remeber having to read that several times to make sure I had not gone dyslexic in the middle of a sentence.
    I was trying to figure out if he was kidding or mentally retarded.





    Having experienced Wong first...going to G2k was like a breath of fresh air. As I read I noticed the same thing of Wong that G2k observed and rember thinking..."I'm glad it's not just me!"
    Same here. Although, I can remember my first few debates, where I claimed the SW lasers couldn't penetrate the UFP's deflector dish and so on.



    Wong even has a creationism vs evolution on his site. Now I have a different side than either ideas...but seeing that he had somehow fit this into his sci fi debate disturbed me and it began to explain his oppressive attitude on the sci fi debate. It really was equal to a evolution debate. We're talking at best sci fantasy in star wars....This isn't the fate of the universe.
    Well, I agree that most creationists are kinda stupid to an extent, in that they ignore science when it doesn't match their own. Granted, most of them are nice people, but they're wrong in the idea that evolution didn't happen.

    However, Wong still acts like a condescending asshole. Very much to his biblical page where he mocks the bible and makes false claims pertaining to what exactly happened in it. Going even through a few of his quotes clearly showed he had no fucking clue what he was talking about.

    G2k was almost...PC and playful, nonchalant. And much of his reason was easy to see he didn't have to slap you with his logic to understand it.
    Yeah, the Storm Trooper armor was really funny.

    Good, I had the same thoughts on the "Rise" calculations. I hate translating from 2D into 3D measures and I've often found him just a bit TOO litteral.
    True, I hate them just as much, but at least he tries to do calculations rather than hide behind ICS. In any case, I think is method only left him a few megatons off, as Trekspert's higher yield was just 19.1 below his own (I took the higher yield from Trekspert's calcs because when he made the calculations, his lower yield one would assume that the light around the torp was smaller than the second, but at the distance, you would only see the larger spikes, and thus, the higher yield seems more logical).

    I didn't agree on the Nemesis Enterprise Scimitar Colision thing nor the amount of ships he says Trek has. I think he says some where between 8 to 10 thousands or something. I think it's closer to 20,000 to 25,000 starships just between Excellsior and Galaxy alone according to registry. I think the ships stick around much longer than he suggest.
    1. Well, that's hard to discern, but given the fact that Picard noted how overconfident that Shinzon was, it's logical to believe that Shinzon himself was being an overconfident douche, and had lowered his shields. Mind you, his opponents ship was trashed, had lost main power, no weapons left, and couldn't run or call for help.

    2. To be fair, he has evidence on his side...for the lower limits at least. In Sacrifice of Angels, they took elements of three fleets to try and get about 900 ships, but they had to go without part of the other fleet. Later in the series, it was stated that the Klingons would have 1,500 starships ready for battle, and it was noted that they would be facing 30,000.

    Granted, this was after both sides had taken massive death tolls, ship losses, and their ship yards were being strained. However, it is very interesting to note that there are ten fleets (that we know off), and if each had a thousand worth of starships, that would mean that throughout the war, the UFP's building rate was as high as their losses. Thus, I would say that they at least have about 10,000 starships each, before the Dominion war.This would be a standard for every Alpha power. Given this, the Cardassians likely only had a few thousand, and Dominion likely have 15,000, and the Breen likely brought 8,000-10,000 to the table when they joined.

    Still, yes, by all logic they should have about 20,000-25,000 starships, but remember that during the war, they lost most of the older ones to Dominion fleets, and the Klingons had lost more during the Klingon-Cardassian war.



    The Star Trek Fan boys can get to me too. They're abit over zealous. it's...admirable but temperable.
    Yes, at times it's hard to restrain their...strange methods of debate.

  11. #9111
    アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) SkywalkerJedi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flectarn View Post
    which are of equally non-cannon status.

    Light whip? seriously? what is this flash gordon

    anyway wide beam kill should take care of any light saber wielders
    O,ya what if they wield Gugan's energy shields


    Is wide beam wider then that?, the jedi and sith can weild them too!

  12. #9112
    アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) SkywalkerJedi's Avatar
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    EU is canon. He never said it's not, he said it's only not HIS universe. if it is non-canon why do they put it on the official database? http://www.starwars.com/databank/appearance/ep0.html
    it is there so it is canon!

  13. #9113
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkywalkerJedi View Post
    O,ya what if they wield Gugan's energy shields


    Is wide beam wider then that?, the jedi and sith can weild them too!
    Wide beam can take out anything as wide as a street, as seen in Return of the Archons.

  14. #9114
    アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) SkywalkerJedi's Avatar
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    Ya at a cost of less power of corse, laws of physics if it is wide as a street then it's power only can stun, they are force-users they can resist stun. and EU is canon.They can turn the shield side ways you know

  15. #9115
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    just aim before their lines, heat up the groud and start the barbeque. or toss some granates in their midsts. seriously Phantom Menace is THE worst display of combat efectivness. they fight like roman legions!!!! i mean WTF???!!!

  16. #9116
    アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) SkywalkerJedi's Avatar
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    You call Domainian war a full-scale war? they don't have any ground fighting or the number of ships. Compared to the Clone Wars the domainian war is a fist-fight. 10,00 ,000+ ships for the CIS and 50,000+ ships for the Republic. The whole starfleet is smaller then the Open Circle 1st fleet, 2 fleet, 5th fleet, and the fleet that defened coruscant.( the reason you don't see many ships in the movies is because the battle almost ended the ships got destoryed )

  17. #9117
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkywalkerJedi View Post
    Ya at a cost of less power of corse, laws of physics if it is wide as a street then it's power only can stun, they are force-users they can resist stun. and EU is canon.They can turn the shield side ways you know
    yes yes, EU is canon and the movies contradict the EU so the movies contradict the canon, so there.....

  18. #9118
    アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) SkywalkerJedi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    just aim before their lines, heat up the groud and start the barbeque. or toss some granates in their midsts. seriously Phantom Menace is THE worst display of combat efectivness. they fight like roman legions!!!! i mean WTF???!!!
    Remember that Naboo never had a fight before that. They only have Starfighters vs Alot of battleships.

  19. #9119
    Registered Senior Member antaran_1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkywalkerJedi View Post
    You call Domainian war a full-scale war? they don't have any ground fighting or the number of ships. Compared to the Clone Wars the domainian war is a fist-fight. 10,00 ,000+ ships for the CIS and 50,000+ ships for the Republic. The whole starfleet is smaller then the Open Circle 1st fleet, 2 fleet, 5th fleet, and the fleet that defened coruscant.( the reason you don't see many ships in the movies is because the battle almost ended the ships got destoryed )
    well if the ships got destroyed they are no longer there right? which means they don't have them....

  20. #9120
    アスラン・ザラ ( Athrun "Alex" Zala ) SkywalkerJedi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antaran_1979 View Post
    well if the ships got destroyed they are no longer there right? which means they don't have them....
    Ya, The whole clone wars is not just the Battle of Coruscant, it is the whole clone wars. lost 2.5/4 of it's navy in clone wars, Republic lost barly any compared to the whole size of the navy( open circle never lost a single Star destoyer in the battle. )

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