03-04-08, 08:06 PM #8601
However Star Fleet has the advantage of being intitially in an unknown territory. So let's address that point.
In the Star Wars vs Star Trek story Conquest featured on Star Destroyer.net, the author addressed this issue by having inside information (somehow) through the Ferengi.
In an intital encounter the Empire would need to map the territory before Jumping to Hyperspace. Star Destroyers are blind while at Hyperspace much like in Stargate.
That would buy the time the Federation would need to prepare and respond. However if they do get a hold of star charts from just about any star ship could allow them to navigate a range of 1,500 light years of explored Space. Anything more than that and the Emprire would be constrained to micro jumps.
The only information canon give us is the 21 times harder than diamond which is 10 times harder than iron and very difficuilt to melt for construction purposes. But I don't think I can go with 500,000 times more more powerful. 10-49 times the firepower yes but that figure is absorantly over cooked.
03-06-08, 02:59 AM #8602
yes, i have to agree.
allthough i'm still researching, i stubled upon some interesting photographies of the ISD models they used during the filming of SW. it apears there are at least two models, with diferent comperative armaments and size. i used the docking bay my base (the photos were from the ventral surfaces). the first model has docking bay which is around 1/7th the lenght and the other has a docking bay which is 1/8th the lenght of the hull. assuming the bay is 4/3 the size of a Corellian Corvette, the size of the respective ships may be 1162m or 1400m (depending on the corvette size of 125m or 150m) and 1325m or 1600m. right now i don't have the time to estemate the size of hte corvette so i used data i found on the net.
BTW. the diference in armaments is vague but obvious. model 2 had 1 quad turet in the small trench and 8 dual platforms on the sides + ? dual turets in the front of the command tower. model 2 lacks the quads but has 8 2X4 smaller "barbette" turets on the sides. are there any other cannon data on the number of armaments on ISDs?
Last edited by antaran_1979; 03-06-08 at 03:06 AM.
03-06-08, 10:39 AM #8603
I've seen those and apparently there is some sort of differences in the command structure but apparently ISD's are equipped with ION canons and Proton torpedo launchers according to the books but as we see missles are used ship to ship in the movies.
We can only judge the firepower of the Proton Torpedo by the explosion on the surface of the Death Star and the Concussion missle judged by it's attack by the Falcon against the Second Death Star's reactor.
03-06-08, 07:09 PM #8604
And yes, her power output is MASSIVE - her impulse engines have a higher output than even the galaxy class, despite having a lighter mass. Plus, her warp core output is enormous. Absolutely. Ridiculous. Same as her phaser capacitance storage.
03-06-08, 07:15 PM #8605
Remember - if we're going to consider a basic advancement of technology, wouldn't Quantum Slipstream be a safely assumed technology?
Also, I would think that the UFP would quickly find a way to track Wars ships in Hyperspace - something as simple as a particulate detection matrix would work, considering ships in Hyperspace have a gravitational "shadow"
03-06-08, 09:07 PM #8606
I do agree though that the Federation could track hyperspace travel. it should be fairly predictable.
You're looking for clear stellar paths allowing travel at the speed of millions of times the speed of light.
Star War's has shown no sign that they controll the speed of Hyperspace travel.
The Federation has also laid an extensive sensor net work over the 1,500 ly of explored space. It should be easy to track the patterns and paths...although they would have much time.
03-07-08, 02:45 AM #8607
03-07-08, 02:46 AM #8608
continuing with strategy:
Now for the United Federation of planets. The size and shape of the Federation is difficult to establish. During the Original Series they mention 1000 worlds, but it’s not clear if these are colony worlds(maybe human colonies), Full members or both. The size of the Federation Counsil in ST IV implies more then 100-200 representatives, but since there may be more then 1 representative per member plus foreign ambassadors, it is still a difficult assessment. In ST VIII Picard states to Llilly that there are over 150 planets in the federation spread across 8000 ly. If these are member worlds then it makes some sense. We constantly see colony worlds in ST and they usually consist of several small settlements on a mostly unpopulated planet. This makes me think that even if there are 20 colonies per member, most of the population would still be concentrated on the home worlds. This does not mean that the industrial facilities are on these worlds. In fact Utopia Planitia and Antares Shipyards are perfect examples of Starfleet installations independent of home worlds. Still when population and political power are considered the home worlds (especially Earth and Vulcan) are probably of prime importance.
The size of 8000ly across is a bit vague too. Does this mean UFP is relatively linear and spread let’s say longitudinally across the galactic arm, or is it radial with a diameter of 8000ly. Or is it cubical? Anyway if the Empire does not posses the star charts or clear jump lanes, I think UFP can establish “fronts”. Since home worlds are of prime importance, these would probably be the “knots” of the defensive lines. Planetary defences are constantly being mentioned but are seldom seen. We know of Star bases, but where was the star base during the both Borg attacks on Earth? Are star bases in low orbit? Do they have the ability to change orbit? Are orbital platforms standard defences? We know of in-system defence ships and the famous mine field. I don’t know much about the defence of Earth during the Breen attack. How was Earth defended? From what I’ve seen Starfleet seams more then able to defend its facilities, but are the civilian targets defended as well?
03-07-08, 02:47 AM #8609
Ok, if we presume the empire attacks the outer territories I think they will establish a foothold. The question is now, how fast can UFP mobilise its fleets and deploys them on time to contain the invasion and counter attack? This is where the shape and size of UFP mater the most, since we get the notion that during peace times, Starfleet is relatively spread out. And often their ships are off exploring uncharted territory. Even at max warp they are often days even weeks away from the nearest star bases.
Just a thought, it appears that if UFP is indeed 1000s of ly across, then most ships operate in designated sectors, since travelling from one side of UFP to the opposite would take 1-4 years. This would mean that during the dominion war, which was fought in the heartlands of the Federation (the inner 100 or so ly), the Federation had the ability to mass nearly 2000 ships during the course of the entire war, just to defend these sectors. This would make the overall size of Starfleet far greater. Since the war lasted only a few years the potential size of Starfleet could be as much as 10000 ships or more, spread out across its entire territory during peace times. Unless the other members deploy their own independent fleets in distant sectors, but this seams unlikely. At best they probably use their own ships for system defence only.
03-07-08, 02:54 AM #8610
now the only thing left is to analyse the industrial capacity and man power of UFP. but practicaly don't have any data on this. it is said in "Best of both Worlds 2" that the losses during the Borg attack (39 star ships, 11000 crew, some system defence ships, USS Lalo, and unknown casulties) could be easely replaced within a year. but is this at maximum capacity? is there any info during the dominion war as to how many ships they menage to produce (we do know they can'y keep up with both ships and crew). and what about loses? how many ships they lost during each of the war years? this might give us some clue of the level of loses tolerance for UFP.
03-07-08, 03:06 AM #8611
One things for sure Antaran.
Star Fleet isn't 8,000 light years across
It would take 2 years to travel to the other end of the Federation at warp nine point six.
8,000 ly must be some sort of cubic estimate of territory...
Or...more likely it was litteral and Star Fleet has explored out to 8,000 lightyears but not all the space between those worlds is Federation territory.
03-07-08, 03:57 AM #8612
i thought of it myself. however an 8000 cubic ly UFP is virtualy a 20X20X20ly cube. this is a very small area for Star Trek standards. even in Enterprise they travelled muvh further.
this is why i asume a segmented federation. or UFP as the colonial Earth was like. the core is similar to Europe and Asia, as they were in the XVII century, and the rest of it is scatered over long distance like the Americas and Australia were, often as far as years of travel. however even within these "boudries", there is still much incharted space. btw in TNG they said that they have explored 11 % of the galaxy. if the galaxy is 100000ly across, and 5000ly wide, this is a total of 40000 bilion cubic ly. 11% of it 4400 billion cubic ly or a cube of 16000ly across. i presume a lot of this to be explored via sub space telescopes. since the galactic plane is no more then 5000 ly wide here at the periphery this means that the explored area is much wider then 16000ly.more like 30000ly square.or 34000 ly in diameter circle. even if only 0.10% of this is actualy visited by ships or populated by colonies or members, it is still a cilinder of 3400ly wide and 500ly thick. since UFP might be elongated it could be long 8000ly, 500ly thick and 1125ly wide.
03-07-08, 04:55 AM #8613
Let me count on the map how many sectors it is...
03-07-08, 06:25 AM #8614
found some interesting data on the following sites:
it has analasys of canon data concerning ST galaxy and warp speeds. Voyager's jurney home is especialy interesting. i'm reading it right now!
03-07-08, 08:16 AM #8615
BTW, just checked with wiki, Deneb (the location of "Encounter at Farpoint") is 3200ly from sol. Deneb is stated as the border of the known universe.
03-07-08, 12:12 PM #8616
You're right 20 x 20 x 20 is far too small.
It's true too that Deneb is 3200 light years away. It's confirmed on the Star Trek side in the Star Trek Star Charts as being out side the 1,500 ly sphere of explored space. Well out side...
At warp 8 it would take alittle over three years to arrive at Far Point Station.
When the Star Charts book was made the author said there were inconsistancies with space time which some times allowed ships to travel a bit faster than normal. This is somewhat true in reality. This is sort of like an up hill down hill comparison. Gravity makes the terrain of space hilly or steep. Depending on your course you could chart paths that take advantage of those down hill motions. We know light's speed varies so logically traveling at many times that of light would vary the actual speed greatly.
03-07-08, 06:52 PM #8617
in order to make some calculations, i need these numbers confirmed.
are these figures correct?
03-07-08, 07:09 PM #8618
I have warp 8 at 1024x c
Warp 9.2 at 1817x c
Warp 9.975 at13485.5x c
03-07-08, 09:19 PM #8619
those will be useffull
i've been doing some digging oh the shield isue in the meantime. after several simulations and episode and movie reviews i'm more puzzled then ever. so i went to memory alpha but that did not help much.
here is my predicament:
shields in ST apear to act in at least 2 diferent maners when protection of the ship from external threats is consirned. in some instances (mostly the movies) the shield apsorbes most of the damage when at 100%. as the battle continues the shield slowly looses power. i say power, because on the memory alpha page there is a nice capture of ST6 where a shield display in the engeneering sais shield power at 70% - shield compromised. for the remainder of the battle the shield continues to loose power, untill the front part on the display begins to blink yellow and Scotty yells: "Shield's collapsing!". the next attack penetrates the hull. this example shows the shields as they are most often represented in video games and the way they are represented in Kobayashi Maru. the shield power determines how much damage can be apsorbed. this power regenerates slowly over time or does not regenerate at all. most movies suport this theory.
however i decided to test it in BC-KM. i picked the Delta-flyer for myself and went on against an ambassador. the ambassador could not get many clear shots against my manual manoevres and i kept hitting it from it's blind spots. the damage i made to its shields was insignificant, but after some 10-15 min of banging on the aft shield at point blanck range, finaly some damage started to get through. after another 5 min i started to cause direct damage to the hull and sub-systems. in the end i destroyed an Ambassador class cruiser with a Delta-Flyer. this has never happened in ST.
this leads me to the second alternative of shield operation in ST. in the shows shields are often nocked out of comission relatively fast, only to be brought back on line within 20-40s. allso when the shield is far more powerfull then the weapon used against it, there apears to be no danger of shield compromisation. i.e. the fusion powered lasers on those fighters could fire indefinitly and they would not dent even the navigational deflectors. when shields do get compromised, in the shows it's usualy by either overwealming the shield grid with a weapon which power can't be matched, so the shield generators either overload and go offline or the shield does not stop enough of the damage; the other compromisation ocurs when the shields are being "drained". by this i assume that it's actualy the power suply of the shield grid that is being drained. this hapennes with use of special weapons (like the Borg) or during prolonged attacks by powerfull weapons (like Romulan disruptors). actualy when fighting comparable oponents, in the begining of the battle, the shields behave in a similar way as they do in the movies by apsorbing most of the damage initialy and less as they take on more beating. but when shield do get weaker often another thing follows. the shield system colapses. after the shield colapse, in the most cases they are able to bring it back on line after half a minute or so. it is strange that after the shield is brought back on line, it usualy reaches full eficiency pretty fast.
to match this kind of shield behavior (not found in most games), my brother moded a galaxy and a warbird shield system in BC about a year ago. he made the shield recharge ratios much faster (so you can go from 0-100% in under a minute) but he extended the shield generator radius to 1.2 units and gave it the exact HP as the shields and a disabled factor of 0.5. this resulted in the following implication. the shield could absorbe moderate attacks without much trubble. as long as the shield power (regeneration per second) was greater then the waepon power (damage per second on the average) the ship suffered little or no damage. in order to penetrate this shield one had to fire most of the ordinance at once on a localised shield area (Alpha Strike), in whicj case some damge would go through. if enough damage was able to penetrate the shield, the shield generator would suffer damage since it's radius is greater then the ship's hull. with enough damge directed from a particular vector one was able to colapse the shield system complitely. my brother then set up the repear ratios for the shield generator so it could be fully repeared in 30-60s (depending on the damage sustaned). this made the Galaxy VS Warbird duels very similar to the TNG battles, explaing the alpha strikes and phaser conservation tactics. with this mode the Delta Flyer could never penetrate the Ambassador or Galaxy shield, no metter how long it could evade weapon lock, making it's fight a futile loop.
my question is (especialy to you guys that play and mode Bridge Commander) how canon is this? since i've only whatched all the episodes from TNG, most of DS9 and all of Enterprise, i can use those for comparisson. but i've only watched a dosen episodes of the original series and 30-40 episodes from Voyager. from what you know, how would you describe shield behavior? and how would you mode BC to match it?
Last edited by antaran_1979; 03-07-08 at 09:27 PM.
03-07-08, 10:04 PM #8620
AMAZING That almost completely accurate!
The way a ship takes damaged to the hull directly effects the shield generator because it's direct damage to the emitters.
Now heres the problem.
Damage to the shield genearator should make shield recharge slower. Note in Tin Man that the enterprise took a very long time to recharge after Gomtu's blast. A script needs to be written that reduces recharge the more damage the hull takes.
Because the truth is the more damage is done to the hull the more sporadic the emitters to power the shield. That would make the game completely canon.
Also...don't be to quick to judge the Delta flyers abilities against the Ambasador. I foresee the Fly could do just that...but there is no way the Flyer is quite maneuverable as it is in the game...many ships are too manuverable...especially sovereign.
What needs to be done is that as the hull takes damage the shields loose effectiveness.
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