Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Enterprise-D]

No, that is why it is canonical to make an assertion that in the ST universe there are other galaxies with undiscovered peoples. Do the st episodes ever consider that there are aliens "out there" that they know nothing about? Yes. Is it canon that these unknown species might attack the federation? Yes according to TNG: Conspiracy. In fact this very episode deals with an unknown alien race attacking the federation. A story that would be identical to an imperial invasion.

Sorry, this episode concerned a parasitic alien race that used its symbiotic abilities to control Federation hosts. This would also be a matter of record, that they were defeated by Captain Jean Luc Picard and Commander William T. Riker. There are no ISDs and no turbolasers. No SW invasion. And no interruption in the original timeline.

So you see, according to the ST episodes it is very much a canon supported possibility.

See above

If the imperials traveled to the milky way without time travel, then it isn't a temporal incursion. SW attacking the federation might have no bearing on the existance of the future feds also. After all maybe the federation wins! If they did, and your future feds still exist, where is the temporal incursion? Thats right, it doesn't exist.

Rubbish, the Imperials are not stated to be in the record of the Federation, therefore you cannot assume that they were ever there. Therefore, any such supposed invation against Picard's era is a temporal incident that the Future Federation has all grounds to disseminate.

No this would be violation of sw canon due to their weapons obviously not being lasers.

True, but you're the one rewriting canon.

If this was to happen, no it wouldn't violate sw canon as sw canon doesn't address phasers vs sw shields. But it sounds more like a rabid trekkie's personal wet dream than what would happen.

Please be a little more mature.
Further, you've proven my point anyways.

SW canon gives force immunity only to a race of non intellegent lizard creatures. So that would be a violation of sw canon.

However it would be a violation of ST canon to make Ferengi affectable by the force...they have been stated to be genetically impervious to telepathic influences. Which do you choose when rewriting canon, and what gives you any authority to do so? And btw, the little flying barkeep that owned Anakin's mum was also immune to the Force. Keep up will you.

Actually its quite simple. And it really doesn't facilitate "silliness" like seen above it just might seem that way to some.

blah blah

My point is John, you have no authority to assume any integration of canon and which would be superior. As someone mentioned earlier, the physics of Wars and Trek were different in some respects, indicating a different universe rather than just a different galaxy.

[Enterprise-D]

It is intresting to note:

The 29th century is likely to have Temporal shielding, ergo nothing that occurs in the past would have an effect on their time line...True they can't shield all of Time but they can shield Earth.

The 29th century has temporal shielding. It is how the Relativity remains unaffected by temporal changes, and can effect corrections.

[Saquist]

John is correct if a Star Wars opponent travels to the Milky Way without the means of Time travel then it would be a non temporal issue. It does not mean they never attacked because the Federation still exist it only means that the invasion did not suceed.

And Big D the Ferengi are invunerable to telapathic influence but the Force is not telepathy. Infact telepathy in Star Wars is loose and empathic at best.

[JohnM81]

Sorry, this episode concerned a parasitic alien race that used its symbiotic abilities to control Federation hosts. This would also be a matter of record, that they were defeated by Captain Jean Luc Picard and Commander William T. Riker. There are no ISDs and no turbolasers. No SW invasion. And no interruption in the original timeline.

The point of TNG: Conspiracy was to show that unknown aliens from unknown far off destinations can show up out of no where and attack the federation is supported and that is what an imperial invasion would be. And so your earlier assertion that an imperial invasion would be against st canon isn't true.

Rubbish, the Imperials are not stated to be in the record of the Federation, therefore you cannot assume that they were ever there. Therefore, any such supposed invation against Picard's era is a temporal incident that the Future Federation has all grounds to disseminate.

Neither were the aliens that attacked the federation in TNG Conspiracy until they attacked. And so it would be for the imperials. How canonically simular the two would be.

True, but you're the one rewriting canon.

To assume they are lasers would be in direct contradiction with canon movie observations. So I have done no such rewritting.

Please be a little more mature.
Further, you've proven my point anyways.

I call it as I see it. I think I have more than mature enough for this forum. Actually I haven't proven your point if your point is to say that combining these two stories invites the remarks you posted.

However it would be a violation of ST canon to make Ferengi affectable by the force...they have been stated to be genetically impervious to telepathic influences. Which do you choose when rewriting canon, and what gives you any authority to do so? And btw, the little flying barkeep that owned Anakin's mum was also immune to the Force. Keep up will you.

No it wouldn't. Ferengi can be affected by a siths ability to break their bones with a thought. Its true that they may be immune telepathy but that in no way makes them immune to the many other aspects of the force.

blah blah

And you're telling me to be mature....

My point is John, you have no authority to assume any integration of canon and which would be superior. As someone mentioned earlier, the physics of Wars and Trek were different in some respects, indicating a different universe rather than just a different galaxy.

I agree I don't have any authority nor have I tried to exercise any. However it is interesting how each movies canon can be meldded with little to no contradictions. I don't know how the physics of the two galaxies are different. If you want to make that point can you be a little bit more specific please.

[JohnM81]

John is correct if a Star Wars opponent travels to the Milky Way without the means of Time travel then it would be a non temporal issue. It does not mean they never attacked because the Federation still exist it only means that the invasion did not suceed.

And Big D the Ferengi are invunerable to telapathic influence but the Force is not telepathy. Infact telepathy in Star Wars is loose and empathic at best.

Thats an excelent point with the future feds that I never thought of. The ST canon demands one of two outcomes if the federation was invaded.

1. The federation wins.
2. The federation after being taken over at some point overthrows the empires grasp on their territory or internal rebellion forces the empire to surrender its gains.


Interesting.

[JohnM81]

Intriguing...to say the least.

Ill admit these calcs lead me to believe that the federations weapons are far more powerful than I first thought. With that said, it still leaves their phasers at about 2/3 the power of a turbolaser according to Wongs calcs. It does make it very clear that many warsies are just plain wrong when they think that startrek weapons would be far far to weak to taking down imperial vessels.

These power levels in conjunction with FTL combat ability would make the battle very difficult for the imps.

If you are curious, I can recalc the species 8472 energy levels and we ballpark estimate how much energy the borg can actually adapt to. Federation energy levels being a level that they can and 8472s being an energy level they can't become immune to.

[Kittamaru]

Not true John - the Federation normally rely on finesse rather than brute power...

you want brute power from the Feds?

Galaxy-X class :P

Watch and learn

I... can't find it! ARGH!

In Deep Space Nine, an Uprated Galaxy-X Class starship equiped with a heavy phaser type A blew a hole clean thru a Klingon Neg'Vhar class battleship with ONE shot. Two more shots, the ship disintegrated! The heavy phaser cannon is powered by a secondary warp core... talk about power output

[Saquist]

Thats an excelent point with the future feds that I never thought of. The ST canon demands one of two outcomes if the federation was invaded.

1. The federation wins.
2. The federation after being taken over at some point overthrows the empires grasp on their territory or internal rebellion forces the empire to surrender its gains.


Interesting.

Yes that.s true...I did consider the rebelion and liberation issue like was propposed with the Dominion. To truthfull what we are told is that something like the Federation exist in the Future by means of ENT series but it's not actually the Federation as we know it.

There is a third problem. The long time ago in the galaxy far far away:
This presents us with the problem that in order to even reach the Milkway from star wars that some form of time travel would be necessary. Even if they didn't say "a long time ago." Once you say "a galaxy far far way" you've pretty much comitted yourself to "a long time ago" anyway.

The result is this in order to travel these incredible distances they would have had to set out a long time ago to get to the Federation now. Or the use of somesort of space folding, wormwhole, rift of etc....but those devices could be considered time travel technology...especially a wormhole. Einstien present possible means of time travel by the anchoring of wormholes to accelerate the opening to the speed of light.

Ill admit these calcs lead me to believe that the federations weapons are far more powerful than I first thought. With that said, it still leaves their phasers at about 2/3 the power of a turbolaser according to Wongs calcs. It does make it very clear that many warsies are just plain wrong when they think that startrek weapons would be far far to weak to taking down imperial vessels.

I'm still going to lean toward greater, John.
I couldn't bring my self to commit to 50% empty volume. That estimate is more based on a vessel that requires "room to move" We don't see the complete use of space in the TNG Cube. Judging from scout ship I'd say that should be 37 or 38 percent empty volume.

But this is one the reasons I don't go for the calculations the variables become arbitrary very quickly as opposed to simply knowing that the Enterprise vaporized a material 21 times harder than diamond and an amount much greater than a 40 meter wide asteroid.

Considering that the totall density is considered and not only the external composition which is likely to be stiffer and more compact than the composition of the internal structure alone leads me to asume these and most calulations are missleading.

If we stick to what we know the answer is clear cut and independent of changing and unconfrimable variable. That's why comparison is my method of choice.

40 meter wide asteroid vs (in your calcuations) 600m wide crater 21 times harder than diamond...and the turbo laser still comes out on top?...yeah...theres something wrong here.

[Saquist]

Oh and don't get the TNG Cube and First Contact Cube confused. Those were two very different designs. Not only that but even the unshielded Cube of First contact resisted Federation firepower far more effectively to nearly zero effect.

The Borg had clearly never met that sort of Firepower before the Enterprise Encounter and quickly adapted the Cube's external defenses beyond electromagnetic shielding. Thus Borg ships are now armored in Star Trek Voyager.

Voyager is the common denominator as it's phasers are Galaxy equivilent. Voyager's phaser did not have the same effect against the Kazon as they did against the Borg.

[JohnM81]

Yes that.s true...I did consider the rebelion and liberation issue like was propposed with the Dominion. To truthfull what we are told is that something like the Federation exist in the Future by means of ENT series but it's not actually the Federation as we know it.

There is a third problem. The long time ago in the galaxy far far away:
This presents us with the problem that in order to even reach the Milkway from star wars that some form of time travel would be necessary. Even if they didn't say "a long time ago." Once you say "a galaxy far far way" you've pretty much comitted yourself to "a long time ago" anyway.

The result is this in order to travel these incredible distances they would have had to set out a long time ago to get to the Federation now. Or the use of somesort of space folding, wormwhole, rift of etc....but those devices could be considered time travel technology...especially a wormhole. Einstien present possible means of time travel by the anchoring of wormholes to accelerate the opening to the speed of light.

Why is that? The fact that they are far far away allows them to travel via hyperspace to our galaxy in a long long time. And time is what we have being they started their journey "a long long time ago". With cloning technology the crew that set out in the begining might not be the crew that fights when they reach the milky way.

I'm still going to lean toward greater, John.
I couldn't bring my self to commit to 50% empty volume. That estimate is more based on a vessel that requires "room to move" We don't see the complete use of space in the TNG Cube. Judging from scout ship I'd say that should be 37 or 38 percent empty volume.

But this is one the reasons I don't go for the calculations the variables become arbitrary very quickly as opposed to simply knowing that the Enterprise vaporized a material 21 times harder than diamond and an amount much greater than a 40 meter wide asteroid.

Considering that the totall density is considered and not only the external composition which is likely to be stiffer and more compact than the composition of the internal structure alone leads me to asume these and most calulations are missleading.

If we stick to what we know the answer is clear cut and independent of changing and unconfrimable variable. That's why comparison is my method of choice.

40 meter wide asteroid vs (in your calcuations) 600m wide crater 21 times harder than diamond...and the turbo laser still comes out on top?...yeah...theres something wrong here.

If we assume that its 30ish percent empty meaning about 64% solid vs 50% solid that increases the power by a factor of 1.23.

That brings the fire power to 83640 TerraWatts. Thats about 83.6% of a turbolaser. Considering glancing blows and missing rate we are finding a pretty simular fire output of these two tech sets.

My math correct? Check me please.

[JohnM81]

Oh and don't get the TNG Cube and First Contact Cube confused. Those were two very different designs. Not only that but even the unshielded Cube of First contact resisted Federation firepower far more effectively to nearly zero effect.

The Borg had clearly never met that sort of Firepower before the Enterprise Encounter and quickly adapted the Cube's external defenses beyond electromagnetic shielding. Thus Borg ships are now armored in Star Trek Voyager.

Voyager is the common denominator as it's phasers are Galaxy equivilent. Voyager's phaser did not have the same effect against the Kazon as they did against the Borg.

Yeah that might complicate trying to find the energy range of adaptability of a borg cube.

[Saquist]

Why is that? The fact that they are far far away allows them to travel via hyperspace to our galaxy in a long long time. And time is what we have being they started their journey "a long long time ago". With cloning technology the crew that set out in the begining might not be the crew that fights when they reach the milky way.





If we assume that its 30ish percent empty meaning about 64% solid vs 50% solid that increases the power by a factor of 1.23.

That brings the fire power to 83640 TerraWatts. Thats about 83.6% of a turbolaser. Considering glancing blows and missing rate we are finding a pretty simular fire output of these two tech sets.

My math correct? Check me please.

It's not the math I question. I've long since forgot how to make those calculations. It's a matter of logic.

1)you have a 40 meter wide asteroid = 7.9 g/cm^3
2)You have 600 meters of porus tritainium 21 times denser than diamond. 73.93 g/cm^3

What youre calcutions are saying is that somehow even the 40m amount nickel/iron is harder to vaporize than 40m tritanium. (It's safe to say there was far more than 40m of Tritanium vaporized.) Not only does the phaser beam accomplishes it's task in the same amount of time it vaporizes far more. Your calculations suggest the Turbo Laser is still more powerful. That's not logical.

7.9 g/cm^3 vs 73.9 g/cm^3
That's almost 10 times as much. That's alot closer to my comparison calculations of 6-10 times the equivilent firepower of a anti-fighter turbo laser. And that's before I even knew the density of tritanium to iron.
You see what I mean by over complicating the comparison? Break things down to equal and propper comparisons eliminating the need to compare (empty volume variables). There is an obvious discrepancy, thus we remove the noncanon data.

These figures fall right in line with the following encounters
Enterprise vs Borg Cube
Voyager vs Kazon Mother ship
Enterprise vs mulitpe 20 meter fighter craft.
Enterprise boring a hole through solid rock
Enterprise vs Cardassian Galor

Yeah that might complicate trying to find the energy range of adaptability of a borg cube.

Well this isn't about energy. This about armor. Both Cubes' shields had been bypassed. So there was no adaptability issue invovled. The phasers just had a minimum effect untill a combined assault was initiated.

[Enterprise-D]

John is correct if a Star Wars opponent travels to the Milky Way without the means of Time travel then it would be a non temporal issue. It does not mean they never attacked because the Federation still exist it only means that the invasion did not suceed.

Incorrect. You or John do not know that the Imperials are recorded in the Future Federation's database. My point to John therefore is that since we do not know this...we cannot assume that they were ever there, and hence cannot assume that they are ever part of the Federation's historical database. More to the point this whole argument started with John stating that there'd be a temporal paradox since the Jedi/Sith can predict the future.

At any rate if the Wars invasion was not part of the future Federation's history, and suddenly appear, it is definitely a temporal incident. Punto Finale. I will not address this point any further.

And Big D the Ferengi are invunerable to telapathic influence but the Force is not telepathy. Infact telepathy in Star Wars is loose and empathic at best.

Ferengi are also do not register with Counselor Troi, who is empathic. They are therefore immune to the Force. And while Vulcans and Betazoids would not be immune outright to the Force, they would indeed be able to resist or perhaps even counteract. The Force is a biological ability as is regular telepathy, it is merely explained with different cells in the body per fiction.

My point with this one is that John is assuming merger of canon. Why is it that he is assuming that Wars canon will override Trek canon? Who gave him the authority to assume either of the above points?

[Saquist]

Incorrect. You or John do not know that the Imperials are recorded in the Future Federation's database. My point to John therefore is that since we do not know this...we cannot assume that they were ever there, and hence cannot assume that they are ever part of the Federation's historical database. More to the point this whole argument started with John stating that there'd be a temporal paradox since the Jedi/Sith can predict the future.

At any rate if the Wars invasion was not part of the future Federation's history, and suddenly appear, it is definitely a temporal incident. Punto Finale. I will not address this point any further.

Not only do not know that the Imperials are recorded in the future Federation's database...

but we also don't know that they aren't. That allows room for creative licence and it's always been excercised by Star Trek before. The story isn't plotted out like B5....Thus we assume infinitely withing those confines.

No John...Jedi can't predict the future. A prediction is accurate. What the Force users do is see a possible outcome. It doesn't always go the way they see it.

Ferengi are also do not register with Counselor Troi, who is empathic. They are therefore immune to the Force.

Negative. The Force is not a empathic ability alone.
It effects the gravitational constant of objects as well as draws from the EM Force aswell.

My point with this one is that John is assuming merger of canon. Why is it that he is assuming that Wars canon will override Trek canon? Who gave him the authority to assume either of the above points?

It just depends. In my story the midicholarians are not as effective in the Milky way since Star Wars canon insist that life could not exist without the midichlorians. That's an obvious Trek Advantage.

[Enterprise-D]

Not only do not know that the Imperials are recorded in the future Federation's database...but we also don't know that they aren't. That allows room for creative licence and it's always been excercised by Star Trek before. The story isn't plotted out like B5....Thus we assume infinitely withing those confines.

My problem is that the assumptions always attempt to remove the advantage from ST. At any rate, since we don't know whether the Imperials are Trek history, we cannot assume that they are, their absence is the default position.

Negative. The Force is not a empathic ability alone.
It effects the gravitational constant of objects as well as draws from the EM Force aswell.

This is true, and the empathic/telepathic functions of the Force would be lost on the Ferengi by immutable Trek canon (stated by Quark and Picard on diff ocassions), and most likely Vulcans and Betazoids as well (not stated, however they are telepaths who have shown capability of resistance to mind attacks).

[Saquist]

I imagin that only the Ferengi are invulnerable the vulcans and betazeds would have to fight a mental battle. It depends on the person.

[Kittamaru]

Spock would vulcan mind fuck a Jedi...

He'd use their own flawed logic against them...

being half vulcan half human would be an advantage here

[halo07guy]

Just had a thought: What would happen if a Federation or Borg ship was hyperspace rammed? While in Hyperspace, SW ships are still physical objects in regular space. This is why they are destroyed when they hit another ship or planet in regular space. Since Hyperspace is described as an alternate dimension that then all allows FTL movement. But since the dimensions are connected, all objects in regular space cast a kind of mass shadow into regular space, essentially meaning that everything is a physical object in Hyperspace. Now, if a SW ship were to jump when a ST ship is directly in-front of it, wouldn't the kinetic energy of moving a several thousand ton vessel thousands of times faster then light cause both ships to shatter?

[MikeHoncho]

Im a real Jedi so listen to me.
Go suck a tit.

[Kittamaru]

halo, the star wars ship would go smoosh against the Borg Cube or Fed Ships shields... assuming equal size ships.

Assuming something like an ISD... the Trek ships would make a micro-warp jump out of the way.

Remember, trek ships CAN and HAVE gone from 0 to warp 9 in less than 1/24,000th of a second (shown in TNG)