Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Saquist]

Is http://www.ditl.org/ a valid source being it cites the episodes?

Many Trek fans on Sci Forum have used this site before.
I've noted that the information they've presented has never actually occured on screen. I see the ditl as what trek fans consider a reasonable extrapolaion on screen. Things such as weapon types and classfications to ships that haven't actually occured on screen appear frequently.

[Enterprise-D]

Here is the crux of the matter. You are correct they don't in the star trek story. However in the trekwars saga as its being told on this forum they belong to the timeline as much as romulins and klingons.

No. This is not a saga. Warsies do not belong to the Federation timeline. You cannot rewrite canon, much the same way my paraphrasal is "unacceptable". They are a breach of the timeline and would be fixed by the future Federation if Picard's era cannot handle it.

[JohnM81]

No. This is not a saga. Warsies do not belong to the Federation timeline. You cannot rewrite canon, much the same way my paraphrasal is "unacceptable". They are a breach of the timeline and would be fixed by the future Federation if Picard's era cannot handle it.

How can one breach the timeline if there is no time travel? ST canon is not violated if we integrate the two scifis. No where in the episodes does it say that there aren't other galaxies out there in the universe that have aliens never encountered.

[USS Athens]

How can one breach the timeline if there is no time travel? ST canon is not violated if we integrate the two scifis. No where in the episodes does it say that there aren't other galaxies out there in the universe that have aliens never encountered.

Yes it has, the physics in each universe are different.

[Enterprise-D]

How can one breach the timeline if there is no time travel? ST canon is not violated if we integrate the two scifis. No where in the episodes does it say that there aren't other galaxies out there in the universe that have aliens never encountered.

Therefore it cannot be considered canon. Nowhere in any of the fictions does it say that there is a race made of milk and cookies who fly ships made of glass. Doesn't mean we consider it a viable integration.

It is a temporal incursion because SW never invaded canon Trek. If they suddenly appear, and the future Federation has no timeline records of it, it is a timeline violation.



And, just to underscore the uselessness of your argument...if we integrate the two scifis and ST canon is not violated, by the same token, SW canon would not be violated when:

- Trek shields prove almost impenetrable to their standard laser weapons
- Wars shields prove useless against Federation phasers
- Wars hulls prove useless against Quantum Torpedos
- Vulcans, Betazoids, Ferengi and Starfleet trained humans prove invulnerable to the effects of the Force
- Suddenly, we find that Picard and Janeway are jedi masters on par with Yoda, and Dr. Bashir is a Jedi Master surpassing all of them since he is genetically engineered...after all midichlorians are SW canon, and since we're "integrating" the scifis, why not just go for the whole hog and create Trek Jedi Masters?

See, this canon business is very tricky and to add or integrate canon to facilitate your own argument leaves you open to the above silliness.

[Saquist]

It is intresting to note:

The 29th century is likely to have Temporal shielding, ergo nothing that occurs in the past would have an effect on their time line...True they can't shield all of Time but they can shield Earth.

[halo07guy]

Can I say something? You guys are basing the firepower of a Turbolaser off an explosion.. in space. Now common sense says that an explosion in space is going to be a lot smaller then one in an atmosphere. I don't mean just a little bit, I mean that if it were a nuke going off, the whole blast would seem unrealistically small.

[Saquist]

Negative...
In space the speed of the explosion would be faster and the effected area larger because of lack of atmosphere restricting the released energy.

[halo07guy]

Yes, but an explosion can only happen in an atmosphere, as it needs something to burn. Unless the heat caused some gas to be released and it burned something like frozen methane or a similar gas, there no way there would be an explosion. The exception, of course, being a nuclear weapon. It would be smaller, to the point where it would look like a regular atmospheric explosion, but the heat and radiation it generates is likely to be enough to actually do some damage to an object. Still, explosions are severly hampered in space by their inability to cause a shockwave or cause fires.

In space the only way weapons can do damage is with heat, radiation, and kinetic force. One logically assumes a spaceborne vessel is likely to be resistant against all of those...

[Lord Vasago]

hey hey hey the lord is back in the house,
so after a few months i was wondering if this thread was still going on. damn right it is lol
so what's up
anything new yet or are we still debating on firepower and shields lol

[Fettman]

Ah more or less Lord oh and Canon dont forget about that.

[Lord Vasago]

Ah more or less Lord oh and Canon dont forget about that.

lol

[Saquist]

Yes, but an explosion can only happen in an atmosphere, as it needs something to burn. Unless the heat caused some gas to be released and it burned something like frozen methane or a similar gas, there no way there would be an explosion. The exception, of course, being a nuclear weapon. It would be smaller, to the point where it would look like a regular atmospheric explosion, but the heat and radiation it generates is likely to be enough to actually do some damage to an object. Still, explosions are severly hampered in space by their inability to cause a shockwave or cause fires.

In space the only way weapons can do damage is with heat, radiation, and kinetic force. One logically assumes a spaceborne vessel is likely to be resistant against all of those...

Ships are often that source of oxygen.
and yet see explosions all the time...curious especially out of Star Wars.

[USS Athens]

Ships are often that source of oxygen.
and yet see explosions all the time...curious especially out of Star Wars.

Yes, Exeter asked me that once, and I told him that. Also Shatner had that happen in one of his books,

...and the blaze lit up the hull as the leaking atmosphere escaped.
~Star Trek Preserver

[JohnM81]

Many Trek fans on Sci Forum have used this site before.
I've noted that the information they've presented has never actually occured on screen. I see the ditl as what trek fans consider a reasonable extrapolaion on screen. Things such as weapon types and classfications to ships that haven't actually occured on screen appear frequently.

Here is something I have found from www.ditl.com

During this episode the Enterprise-D confronts a Borg cube which initiates an attack with a tractor beam and cutting beam. The cube is unshielded. Captain Picard orders Lieutenant Worf to 'bring whatever force necessary to terminate that beam'. The Enterprise fires several shots at the cube, damaging it and terminating the tractor beam. Of the visible damage to the surface, one shot into a face of the cube has vaporized a roughly hemispherical volume who's diameter is close to that of the Enterprise Enterprise, i.e. about 600 metres.

We don't really know the composition of the Borg ship. For our first pass at the energy required accomplish this feat, I'll assume it is a solid cube of tritanium. From the tech manual, page 134, we know that vaporizing a 3 cubic metre block of tritanium takes 7.2 x 1012 Joules (see the 'materials' link on the left for further details). The volume of a 300 metre radius hemisphere would be greater than the 3 cubic metre block by a factor of :

F = (0.5 x 4/3 x pi x r3) / (3 x 2)
= 56,556,000 / 6
= 9,426,000 times larger.

The energy required is thus :

E = 9,426,000 x 7.2 x 1012
= 6.8 x 1019 Joules

Now of course, the Borg cube is not a solid block of Tritanium - in fact, from both the exterior views and what we have seen of the interior, much of a Borg cube is unoccupied. Say 50% of the cube is unused empty volume, and say that of the remaining 50%, only about 0.2% is actual walls and floor - the rest being corridors, crawlspaces and the like. Overall, the cube would be about 0.1% solid metal. So a more realistic value for the energy required to do the damage we see is around 6.8 x 1016 Joules.

The phaser blast lasted around 1 second, so this equates to a total power output of :

P = 6.8 x 1016 Watts, or :
= 68,000 TeraWatts


Although this site uses some data from non-canonical sources, what do you think about it?

[JohnM81]

Therefore it cannot be considered canon. Nowhere in any of the fictions does it say that there is a race made of milk and cookies who fly ships made of glass. Doesn't mean we consider it a viable integration.

No, that is why it is canonical to make an assertion that in the ST universe there are other galaxies with undiscovered peoples. Do the st episodes ever consider that there are aliens "out there" that they know nothing about? Yes. Is it canon that these unknown species might attack the federation? Yes according to TNG: Conspiracy. In fact this very episode deals with an unknown alien race attacking the federation. A story that would be identical to an imperial invasion.

So you see, according to the ST episodes it is very much a canon supported possibility.

It is a temporal incursion because SW never invaded canon Trek. If they suddenly appear, and the future Federation has no timeline records of it, it is a timeline violation.

If the imperials traveled to the milky way without time travel, then it isn't a temporal incursion. SW attacking the federation might have no bearing on the existance of the future feds also. After all maybe the federation wins! If they did, and your future feds still exist, where is the temporal incursion? Thats right, it doesn't exist.

And, just to underscore the uselessness of your argument...if we integrate the two scifis and ST canon is not violated, by the same token, SW canon would not be violated when:

- Trek shields prove almost impenetrable to their standard laser weapons

No this would be violation of sw canon due to their weapons obviously not being lasers.

- Wars shields prove useless against Federation phasers

If this was to happen, no it wouldn't violate sw canon as sw canon doesn't address phasers vs sw shields. But it sounds more like a rabid trekkie's personal wet dream than what would happen.

- Wars hulls prove useless against Quantum Torpedos

See above reply.

- Vulcans, Betazoids, Ferengi and Starfleet trained humans prove invulnerable to the effects of the Force

SW canon gives force immunity only to a race of non intellegent lizard creatures. So that would be a violation of sw canon.

- Suddenly, we find that Picard and Janeway are jedi masters on par with Yoda,

If Picard/Janeway were force sensitive, had midi counts as high as yoda, were young enough to start their training, and showed the symptoms to being force senstive in their respective episodes then yes it would be canonically allowed.

....and Dr. Bashir is a Jedi Master surpassing all of them since he is genetically engineered.

So are storm troopers in the attack of the clones but that doesn't give them any special abilities so Dr. Bashir's genetic engineering giving him special abilities is not canon supported.

..after all midichlorians are SW canon, and since we're "integrating" the scifis, why not just go for the whole hog and create Trek Jedi Masters?

Once the integration takes place there is no reason why ppl from the st universe couldn't become jedi with the appropriate training assuming they are force sensitive.

See, this canon business is very tricky and to add or integrate canon to facilitate your own argument leaves you open to the above silliness.

Actually its quite simple. And it really doesn't facilitate "silliness" like seen above it just might seem that way to some.

[FoolFromHell]

If the imperials traveled to the milky way without time travel, then it isn't a temporal incursion. SW attacking the federation might have no bearing on the existance of the future feds also. After all maybe the federation wins! If they did, and your future feds still exist, where is the temporal incursion? Thats right, it doesn't exist.

But think about it. No future federation if the current one is destroyed. To protect the "right" timeline, the future federation MUST intervene. Unless, of course, the 24th century Federation can handle the Empire by itself. Which it can.

[USS Exeter]

Oh my God!! 420 pages! Awesome!

[JohnM81]

But think about it. No future federation if the current one is destroyed. To protect the "right" timeline, the future federation MUST intervene. Unless, of course, the 24th century Federation can handle the Empire by itself. Which it can.

I understand what you are saying. Its canon that the future feds exist. Its also canon that the future feds travel back in time to rectify paradoxes. But if no time travel has taken place, no paradox can exist either. What you have to understand that if the empire did take over the galaxy there is no way for us to know if the future feds would be destroyed. How do you know how the time line would play out? Maybe the empire would lose. Maybe the empire would win but the federation eventually over throws the empire. Maybe the empire is overthrown from within and this galaxy is given its freedom back. Maybe the borg exact such a terrible toll on the empire they have to retreat.

The point is for the future feds to intervene a paradox must exist and their existance must be threatened. We all are assuming that the time line will play out without the future feds being created and I think those who are pushing that idea need to justify it.

[Saquist]

Here is something I have found from www.ditl.com

During this episode the Enterprise-D confronts a Borg cube which initiates an attack with a tractor beam and cutting beam. The cube is unshielded. Captain Picard orders Lieutenant Worf to 'bring whatever force necessary to terminate that beam'. The Enterprise fires several shots at the cube, damaging it and terminating the tractor beam. Of the visible damage to the surface, one shot into a face of the cube has vaporized a roughly hemispherical volume who's diameter is close to that of the Enterprise Enterprise, i.e. about 600 metres.

We don't really know the composition of the Borg ship. For our first pass at the energy required accomplish this feat, I'll assume it is a solid cube of tritanium. From the tech manual, page 134, we know that vaporizing a 3 cubic metre block of tritanium takes 7.2 x 1012 Joules (see the 'materials' link on the left for further details). The volume of a 300 metre radius hemisphere would be greater than the 3 cubic metre block by a factor of :

F = (0.5 x 4/3 x pi x r3) / (3 x 2)
= 56,556,000 / 6
= 9,426,000 times larger.

The energy required is thus :

E = 9,426,000 x 7.2 x 1012
= 6.8 x 1019 Joules

Now of course, the Borg cube is not a solid block of Tritanium - in fact, from both the exterior views and what we have seen of the interior, much of a Borg cube is unoccupied. Say 50% of the cube is unused empty volume, and say that of the remaining 50%, only about 0.2% is actual walls and floor - the rest being corridors, crawlspaces and the like. Overall, the cube would be about 0.1% solid metal. So a more realistic value for the energy required to do the damage we see is around 6.8 x 1016 Joules.

The phaser blast lasted around 1 second, so this equates to a total power output of :

P = 6.8 x 1016 Watts, or :
= 68,000 TeraWatts


Although this site uses some data from non-canonical sources, what do you think about it?

Intriguing...to say the least.