Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

They wouldn't mention the loss of the core because the Sovereign can fight without it almost as effectively.

Also, I think it was kind of obvious

And they were disruptor blasts - I do not believe the Scimitar fired a single torpedo - remember, he needed Picard alive and only in the end decided to destroy the ship- by then their weapons were offline.

[Saquist]

They wouldn't mention the loss of the core because the Sovereign can fight without it almost as effectively.

Also, I think it was kind of obvious

And they were disruptor blasts - I do not believe the Scimitar fired a single torpedo - remember, he needed Picard alive and only in the end decided to destroy the ship- by then their weapons were offline.

it's not obvious unless you eject the core.
While this is true, that the Sovereign can fight effectively against lesser ships against the Scimitar is a battle far from lesser. The shields are like a battery of energy. To defend the ship you must recharge that battery. Without the core and ship at battlestations using Impulse engine power to manuver and reserve power for secondary systems "like force fields" there was no power to recharge the shields and maintain them.

The fight in Insurrection was pathetic and Enterprise won it easily enough. So it is worthy of mentioning...Any time a ship loses the main reactor it's worth mentioning.

I remain undesided about the disrupter vs...torpedo...

[Enterprise-D]

The cloak the and all that ...well...yeah...that' cool...
But...How fast is the Enterprise? Can't be too fast because the Scimitar caught it without problem and I ASSURE you with that Hull Design the Scimitar isn't going to break any speed records....

At warp the hull design has no bearing on speed...both Enterprise E and the Scimitar can move quickly at Warp...Heck, a Borg Cube can move faster at warp than both. So it was easy for Shinzon's vessel to catch up with Picard's.

At normal relativistic speeds though, they're both clumsier than say the Valdore Warbird, or Voyager. Or even Enterprise-D. Scimitar couldn't even move out of the collision course quickly enough.

3) The Scimitar had plenty of time to Analyze the shield harmonics of the Enterprise while the Enterprise was unaware it was even there. As a result, the disruptor blasts were likely calibrated to best penetrate the Enterprise's shields.

I don't agree with this point, if it were possible to scan for shield frequencies, why bother with shields at all? Scimitar overcame Enterprise quickly almost wholly because of the surprise factor...never underestimate the element of surprise...

[Hellblade8]

Star Wars ships do have shields. And to be fair, in DS9, they didn't have the shield flash, though this was mainly due to budget limits. So, just because it doesn't have a shield flash doesn't mean it doesn't have a shield.

Of course, putting the shields on the outside of the ship is kinda stupid...

[Saquist]

At warp the hull design has no bearing on speed...both Enterprise E and the Scimitar can move quickly at Warp...Heck, a Borg Cube can move faster at warp than both. So it was easy for Shinzon's vessel to catch up with Picard's.

Sorry man I gotta flag you. Warp speed geometry has made it into several episdoes either as schematics or by statements. In Voyager it was refered to as "hull geometry" and "temporal stresses" as ships travel faster than light.

In the Next Generation we constantly see graphics showing the integrity of the Galaxy Class vessel war field around the bow and stern of the ship and Voyager also showed similar graphics of a bow=shock shaped by the nose of the ship.

The field it's self is called a warp bubble. A stable warp bubble can be destablized by insuffiecient power or irregularities in the hull which was stated by Voyager when the Kazon ship plowed through the saucer section to steal Voyager's transport technology. The warp shuttle Cochrane showed us that hull geometry is crucial to crossing the threshold into subspace. The nacelles kept tearing away from the ship do to stress at high warp.

Notice all the slow vessels that are slow have poorly designed bow shocks.
Defiant: Warp 8.7 max speed
Nova: Warp 8 max speed
Romulan War Bird: Warp 8 max speed
Bird of Prey: warp 8

The Fastest ships in the fleet.
Intrepid: Warp 9.975 300% faster than the galaxy.
Dauntless: Slipstream
Galaxy: warp 9.6 max speed

[Kittamaru]

At warp the hull design has no bearing on speed...both Enterprise E and the Scimitar can move quickly at Warp...Heck, a Borg Cube can move faster at warp than both. So it was easy for Shinzon's vessel to catch up with Picard's.

At normal relativistic speeds though, they're both clumsier than say the Valdore Warbird, or Voyager. Or even Enterprise-D. Scimitar couldn't even move out of the collision course quickly enough.



I don't agree with this point, if it were possible to scan for shield frequencies, why bother with shields at all? Scimitar overcame Enterprise quickly almost wholly because of the surprise factor...never underestimate the element of surprise...

Weapons can be rotated to best penetrate shields - trying to do so with a transporter is toying with the possibility of being fried

[Kittamaru]

Sorry man I gotta flag you. Warp speed geometry has made it into several episdoes either as schematics or by statements. In Voyager it was refered to as "hull geometry" and "temporal stresses" as ships travel faster than light.

In the Next Generation we constantly see graphics showing the integrity of the Galaxy Class vessel war field around the bow and stern of the ship and Voyager also showed similar graphics of a bow=shock shaped by the nose of the ship.

The field it's self is called a warp bubble. A stable warp bubble can be destablized by insuffiecient power or irregularities in the hull which was stated by Voyager when the Kazon ship plowed through the saucer section to steal Voyager's transport technology. The warp shuttle Cochrane showed us that hull geometry is crucial to crossing the threshold into subspace. The nacelles kept tearing away from the ship do to stress at high warp.

Notice all the slow vessels that are slow have poorly designed bow shocks.
Defiant: Warp 8.7 max speed
Nova: Warp 8 max speed
Romulan War Bird: Warp 8 max speed
Bird of Prey: warp 8

The Fastest ships in the fleet.
Intrepid: Warp 9.975 300% faster than the galaxy.
Dauntless: Slipstream
Galaxy: warp 9.6 max speed

The Hull design has a limited effect on the ship's speed abilities - remember, the Warp Field is what matters. HOWEVER, in the interest of conserving power, the warp field is generally pretty close to the ship. If you have an oddly shaped ship (Rommie D'Deredix) the warp field won't be the nice, sleek, bubble that provides maximum velocity.

However, do remember- a Borg Cube can reach almost warp 10 merely because it has the power reserves to do so. The Enteprise-E can just about keep up with a Borg Cube (it WAS designed to hunt and destroy the Borg ships) much as the Intrepid class can catch them due to being a small, dartlike ship.

Also - the Ent-E was far more maneuverable than the Scimitar... the Valdore class warbirds were a fair bit smaller and lighter than the Enterprise.

[USS Athens]

Star Wars ships do have shields. And to be fair, in DS9, they didn't have the shield flash, though this was mainly due to budget limits. So, just because it doesn't have a shield flash doesn't mean it doesn't have a shield.

Of course, putting the shields on the outside of the ship is kinda stupid...

Are you sure? I've never seen a SW sheild actully do what it is supposed to do then...

[USS Exeter]

Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

[halo07guy]

Um, when he said shields, he was referring to the hanger shields. And please remember the scale of the battle there and how many capital ships were involved. That picture just proves the shields were down upon that attack, as would most other ships in the battle, as most would be re-directing their core outputs to their weapons instead of shields, as evidenced by the fact that a single shot from a turbolaser is enough to blow a whole quadrent of a ship off. Both sides ships were known to do that, and the book even says that he Hand's weapons were close to over-heating from the energy surges from the reactor.

Also, do notice that if there aren't any shields on the SSD, then why didn't they fire directly at the bridge? Thats a hole in your logic. The Admiral even said to concentrate fire on the Executor, which is then taking the full firepower of about 15 capital ships, which still take apporximately an hour to take the shields down, which was the only time they could destroy the generators, which is under the shields, not above them. If what you said was true, then they should of been able to blow out the bridge with the first shot. That just adds proff to the fact that SW does have shields.

Also, the key word in what you said was VISIBLE shields. Unlike ST shields, these things don't give off a constant glow when their hit by a single beam. You even see the flashes in Empire Strikes Back.

[Kittamaru]

That's good and all...

but the shields on fighters are still worthless...

For that matter, so are the shields on most sub-capital ships.

Only ship I saw with decent shields - Luke's X-Wing (took a direct hit and survived) and the Falcon (took multiple glancing hits and survived)

Seems to be a very convenient plot device...

[FoolFromHell]

Um, when he said shields, he was referring to the hanger shields. And please remember the scale of the battle there and how many capital ships were involved. That picture just proves the shields were down upon that attack, as would most other ships in the battle, as most would be re-directing their core outputs to their weapons instead of shields, as evidenced by the fact that a single shot from a turbolaser is enough to blow a whole quadrent of a ship off. Both sides ships were known to do that, and the book even says that he Hand's weapons were close to over-heating from the energy surges from the reactor.

Also, do notice that if there aren't any shields on the SSD, then why didn't they fire directly at the bridge? Thats a hole in your logic. The Admiral even said to concentrate fire on the Executor, which is then taking the full firepower of about 15 capital ships, which still take apporximately an hour to take the shields down, which was the only time they could destroy the generators, which is under the shields, not above them. If what you said was true, then they should of been able to blow out the bridge with the first shot. That just adds proff to the fact that SW does have shields.

Also, the key word in what you said was VISIBLE shields. Unlike ST shields, these things don't give off a constant glow when their hit by a single beam. You even see the flashes in Empire Strikes Back.

Well, think about this. Why didnt the Rebel fleet destroy the bridge as SOON as the shields went down? Sorry. I am busy for the next few hours. Will be back.

[Saquist]

The Hull design has a limited effect on the ship's speed abilities - remember, the Warp Field is what matters. HOWEVER, in the interest of conserving power, the warp field is generally pretty close to the ship. If you have an oddly shaped ship (Rommie D'Deredix) the warp field won't be the nice, sleek, bubble that provides maximum velocity.

The fact that an object protruding through Voyager Suacer stop the ship from develping a stable warp field is and object contradiction to that point.

Warp fields are not a shield but like magnetic fields a series of concentric folds of energy using each nacelle like a positive and negative source or "poles" to rap the ship.

If you were right that hull design was not an issue then one could place the the nacelles perpendicular to the bow and it wouldn't matter...however since like a magnetic field the poles would be the weakest part of the ship they are placed perpendicular to the port and starboard side. This allows to place the strongest part of the field at the stern and bow.

The Hull rapped in concentric circles of warp fields shapes the bow shock. The bow-shock is the strongest part of the buble because on Federation ships it is reinforced by a propperly angled concentric circle (the saucer) the weaker end would be the stern which the field needs to rapp around nacelles and the butt of ship. Every time a magnetic field bends (like on the sun) or does not have sufficient power (like in the sun) it breaks if put under stress which is why we have solar flares. The same is true of warp fields.

Voyager and Enterprise has shown that these fields are stressed by the space time their attempting to hold back. Remeber that the space outside the warp field is traveling at many times the speed of light. In order for anything to travel at lightspeeds they'd have to be energy but the warp field creates miniture universe and fluctuates the expansion of the warp field to go faster or slower.

However, do remember- a Borg Cube can reach almost warp 10 merely because it has the power reserves to do so. The Enteprise-E can just about keep up with a Borg Cube (it WAS designed to hunt and destroy the Borg ships) much as the Intrepid class can catch them due to being a small, dartlike ship.

Negative a borg cube has never been seen traveling anywhere near warp 10. IN BOBW the Cube gained and matched the Enterprise D's 9.6. That's no where near warp ten.

Concur...The Cube has the power to force warp fields to stablize for higher speeds. The answer does seem to be power or efficiency.

[Saquist]

Um, when he said shields, he was referring to the hanger shields. And please remember the scale of the battle there and how many capital ships were involved. That picture just proves the shields were down upon that attack, as would most other ships in the battle, as most would be re-directing their core outputs to their weapons instead of shields, as evidenced by the fact that a single shot from a turbolaser is enough to blow a whole quadrent of a ship off. Both sides ships were known to do that, and the book even says that he Hand's weapons were close to over-heating from the energy surges from the reactor.

Negative:
The Clone War's Cartoons confirmed that these Seperatist ships have no shields at all. This attack had just begun and as it describes it as a sneak attack; ships were "spilling" out of Hyperspace. Barely enough time had passed for the fleet engagement to take out every ship's shields and yet ship after ship from the Seperatist side were shieldless as energy beams fighters and turbo lasers struck bare hull. There was not one shield event in the entire movie nor in the clone wars.

Also, do notice that if there aren't any shields on the SSD, then why didn't they fire directly at the bridge? Thats a hole in your logic.

Star Wars.com confirms that fighter shields aren't complete explaining why shots hit directly on the hull destroying the fighter in one shot.

Star Destroyers are likely the same way or they do not have particle shields. In any event the films prove the fighters can fly true the shilds and fire directly on the hull.

The Admiral even said to concentrate fire on the Executor, which is then taking the full firepower of about 15 capital ships, which still take apporximately an hour to take the shields down, which was the only time they could destroy the generators, which is under the shields, not above them.

No captial ship fire is recorded by film. Only fighters are seen attacking the Star Destroyer even the sole destroyer taken out had no captial ships near them. Clearly the ship was destroyed by concentrated fighter attacks and the same method was being used on the executor.

Also, the key word in what you said was VISIBLE shields. Unlike ST shields, these things don't give off a constant glow when their hit by a single beam. You even see the flashes in Empire Strikes Back.

True these are mostly invisible defense except for rare fighter occasions.

[Enterprise-D]

Star Wars ships do have shields. And to be fair, in DS9, they didn't have the shield flash, though this was mainly due to budget limits. So, just because it doesn't have a shield flash doesn't mean it doesn't have a shield.

Of course, putting the shields on the outside of the ship is kinda stupid...

No no, DS9 did have shields that flashed, the whole shield grid was ovoid and light orange...I'll see if I can find you a screenshot.

Further, Grievous' ship's hull was struck from the first shot, and at shot #3, the shuttlebay forceshield circuitry was destroyed.

[Enterprise-D]

Sorry man I gotta flag you. Warp speed geometry has made it into several episdoes either as schematics or by statements. In Voyager it was refered to as "hull geometry" and "temporal stresses" as ships travel faster than light.

Actually, yes, you're right...it's a Federation limitation. I remembered just before I started reading responses.

It's clear though that the Borg, and the Scimitar have less problems with the hull restrictions.

[Enterprise-D]

Weapons can be rotated to best penetrate shields - trying to do so with a transporter is toying with the possibility of being fried

True, but that belies silent analysis...

[Enterprise-D]

Um, when he said shields, he was referring to the hanger shields.

I know that...since there were no hull shields.

And please remember the scale of the battle there and how many capital ships were involved. That picture just proves the shields were down upon that attack, as would most other ships in the battle, as most would be re-directing their core outputs to their weapons instead of shields,

Guesswork.

...as evidenced by the fact that a single shot from a turbolaser is enough to blow a whole quadrent of a ship off. Both sides ships were known to do that, and the book even says that he Hand's weapons were close to over-heating from the energy surges from the reactor.

The shot came far into the battle, that ship was bound to be destroyed. Be that as it may, in my opinion Warsie ships' hull armor is exceptional, to be able to take beatings as in the movies.

Also, do notice that if there aren't any shields on the SSD, then why didn't they fire directly at the bridge? Thats a hole in your logic.

This is very simple actually. The mission was to rescue Palpitine. They had to board the ship and take him off it first.

The Admiral even said to concentrate fire on the Executor, which is then taking the full firepower of about 15 capital ships, which still take apporximately an hour to take the shields down, which was the only time they could destroy the generators, which is under the shields, not above them. If what you said was true, then they should of been able to blow out the bridge with the first shot. That just adds proff to the fact that SW does have shields.

Yet still a single fighter can strike hull plates in its first attack.

Also, the key word in what you said was VISIBLE shields. Unlike ST shields, these things don't give off a constant glow when their hit by a single beam. You even see the flashes in Empire Strikes Back.

Rubbish, my screenshots show hull explosions, and effects of destroyed circuitry.

[Saquist]

Actually, yes, you're right...it's a Federation limitation. I remembered just before I started reading responses.

It's clear though that the Borg, and the Scimitar have less problems with the hull restrictions.

The Borg don't have the problem and the Scimitar doesn't seem extremely limited but it does have three power cores. So if it can reinforce structural intergrity then it won't matter. Also keep in mind of all the traditional races the Federation has the fastest ships.

[halo07guy]

The bridge thing was refering to the Executor, not the Hand. The shields thing is not guess work, as is the scale of the battle. Bear in mind that ST counts fighters and shuttles as ships, a fleet that numbers 60 ships might actually be a group of 20 cap ships and 40 fighters. I'm not saying that every fleet consists of almost entirely of fighters, but I am saying that the numbers are deceiving. A 60 ship fleet in SW is a group of 60 capital ships.

Saquist, the section you qouted was from the BEGINNING of the battle. What we see in Episode 3 is after the battle had been raging for quite a while, as the ships had all entered at nearly the same point, but by the time we see whats in the movie, the ships are spread all over the place, with hundreds in the few scenes we see on just one small area of the planet. Also, the core-output thing is canon, as the book mentions it, which makes logical sense to me. Would you rather wait out an attack, or destroy your enemy before they destroy you. In that battle there were litterally dozens upon dozens of ships here exchanging fire with each other.

Also, they do have particle shields in SW. You see them in ESB in the asteroid field and at least twice in RTJ, when a tie impacts on a rebel cruiser and another fighter hits a ISD.

I do have a burning qustion though. Why did ST never develop a carrier-like unit? Wouldn't the fleet realize the benefits of having a carrier?