Star Wars vs Star Trek

[FoolFromHell]

You got some things wrong. THe Ececutor had a secondary bridge, but apparently couldn't shift control to it in time.Whats the point then?? That much is canon. And the Empire stopped cloning after a clone rebellion and the fact that it would be far faster to just draft or recruitIt was actually because Kamino rebelled. If the Empire are seriously threatened, MANY systems will rebel.. Alos, to get to the rear of a ISD or SSD, it would have to go around the ship, past its weapons.At 1000+ times the speed of light, thats not really a problem Also, Federation ship's speed actually hinders them. They can't stay behind a SSD for long before crashing into it . Also, all Imperial ships have rear firing cannons. Again, wrong. They can just stay at max impulse (more than 80% speed of light), making it effectively impossible for the SW turrets to hit them, and they can just go forwards and backwards. Remember, were talking about a 15 km long ship here. A heavy turbolaser is about the size of a small building. Of course it'll look like their not there when their on a ship that sizeWhats the use of a turret if it cant even hit the target? ST weapons can change targets at LITERALLY lightspeed. The strips around the ships can change targets at that speed. And do remember, logistics works against ST too. They can out-produce ST extreamly quickly, and if what Fettman said is true about 25,000 ISDs being built in one year, of which about 90-95% come from one planet, then ST doesn't stand much of a chance. Can a Borg armada defeat a fleet on the oreder of hundreds of thousands of ships( About 23,000-24,000 ISDs from just one planet. Theres hundreds of such factory and shipyard planets.)?Yes, since there are MILLIONS of cubes. Each with HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of drones each, all with the capability of boarding and assimilating ships and crew members. Plus, the ST defense will be extremely unorganized. How will you defend against MILLIONS of ships, TRILLIONS of drones, on a MILLION fronts since SW has a million worlds? Each governer will try to look after his own ass and wont care about his neighbors and such.

Also, I think we agrred that the Empire is far too large for ST to win, given that warp is relatively slowBut transwarp isnt, and if its ST universe vs. SW universe, the Voth will share the technology with all ST races. Thats 17 light years/second. (look in previous pages for me proof). It would have to conquer millions of worlds, each one part of a militaristic monarchy/dictatorship. In other words, ST loses in the logistics, speed, numbers, attrition, trade, and productions fields.Lets see. Unorganized Defense, Inferior numbers, too many planets to control, TRADE?? The Federation and Borg dont even need trade to survive...
The Borg can conquer a planet, and within a year, get atleast 100 more cubes from there. All it takes is ONE SW world, ONE, to be conquered, and the Borg have a permanent presence in the Galaxy Far Far Away. How easy would you think it would be for the Borg to conquer ANY uncivilized planet (there must be thousands), use its resources to replicate entire ships, and create an armada in the millions before the Empire can notice? Several of those are extreamly important advantages. Look at the US in WW2. Shermans were inferior to German tanks in speed, armor, and firepower, but about 60,0000 of them were produced in five years. Each german tank would have to kill about 2,000 tanks each to get rid of that advantage. Same applies here. The question is, how many ISDs can a Soveriegn kill before being destroyed. I doubt a fleet of five Sovereigns could withsatnd the combined firepower of a fleet of 25 or 30 ISDs. You might be able to do guerrilla attacks, but those will eventually wittle down your fleets to nothing.Again, wrong. ANY ST ship can run circles around any SD for atleast a few months (even though it wont need that many) and shoot phasers and, even for a single second, if the shields go down, they will beam the bridge crews into the brig since SW ships dont have transporter disruptors. And you know how devastating the loss of a bridge crew is to a SW ship. The Empire fleets rely too much on the chain of command. Cut off any part of the chain, and everything above AND below will disintegrate.

filler. text in quotes.

[Criti]

You got some things wrong. THe Ececutor had a secondary bridge, but apparently couldn't shift control to it in time. That much is canon.

I can't confirm or deny this, as I mentioned in my original post, I'm limiting my points to what I'll call the "Common Canon." That's movies and television. Indeed, there are many people who believe that is the ONLY official canon - since there are simply too many books for each series for any person to have knowledge of all of them.

That said, I saw no evidence in the movies that the Executioner had a secondary bridge - but even if it did, what good is it if the crew can't get it online? An early episode of TNG informs us that there is a backup crew stationed to the Battle Bridge in case of the event of an emergency. They'd be able to take over at a moment's notice. Not to mention that we know all Bridge functions can be taken over from Engineering should something go wrong.

And the Empire stopped cloning after a clone rebellion and the fact that it would be far faster to just draft or recruit.

In that case, the Dominion definitely has the edge.

Alos, to get to the rear of a ISD or SSD, it would have to go around the ship, past its weapons.

Warp speed. Where's the problem? The SW movies indicate that it is pretty impossible to track a ship moving faster than light unless a device had been planted onboard. And ST established that a drop out of Warp can be extremely precise (the Picard Manuveur puts a ship out of Warp just a few hundred meters away from the target). A drop out of Warp could easily land a Federation vessel in a position that would prevent the Imperials from responding with weapons or deflector screens before the vessel had made a crippling attack run (let's also remember that Federation vessles are capable of specific targetting runs... there could be a drop out of Warp, and a direct hit on the primary reactors before the ISD knew what hit it.

Also, Federation ship's speed actually hinders them. They can't stay behind a SSD for long before crashing into it.

Why not? We've seen Starfleet vessels range in speed from 200kph all the way up to maximum impulse. It'd be no problem to remain behind them.

Also, all Imperial ships have rear firing cannons. Remember, were talking about a 15 km long ship here. A heavy turbolaser is about the size of a small building. Of course it'll look like their not there when their on a ship that size.

Again, there is no evidence of this in the films - so I cannot confirm or deny this.

And do remember, logistics works against ST too. They can out-produce ST extreamly quickly, and if what Fettman said is true about 25,000 ISDs being built in one year, of which about 90-95% come from one planet, then ST doesn't stand much of a chance.

As has been said... the Borg. Not only do they have MILLIONS of vessels at their disposal, each with hundreds of thousands of Drones, but they are capable of assimilating vessels. Each ISD they took would be a 2 ship swing, since it would take only a period of a few hours to a couple of days to convert the ship into a Borg vessel.

Can a Borg armada defeat a fleet on the oreder of hundreds of thousands of ships( About 23,000-24,000 ISDs from just one planet. Theres hundreds of such factory and shipyard planets.)?

It's likely that they could, yes. We know it doesn't take much to stop an ISD. Take out the bridge, and the ship is done. A Borg Cube, however, is capable of maintaining near complete operational status even if 80% of the vessel is heavily damaged (TNG).

As could the Dominion with their suicide tactics and the container-bred Jem'Hadar. It would only take 1 Jem'Hadar attack ship (not larger than the Defiant... and the Defiant only had a 40-50 person crew compliment) to take out a Star Destroyer.

Also, I think we agrred that the Empire is far too large for ST to win, given that warp is relatively slow. It would have to conquer millions of worlds, each one part of a militaristic monarchy/dictatorship.

The Empire defeats itself. Funny how quickly it collapses once the Emperor is killed. Clearly, the political situation is extremely volatile within the Empire. The Federation does not suffer from the same problem - neither do the Borg or the Dominion. In fact, the Jem'Hadar are so feared that they don't even garrison their worlds. We're told in a DS9 episode that they don't need to, because if you defy the Dominion, "they send the Jem'Hadar after you. And then you die"

In other words, ST loses in the logistics, speed, numbers, attrition, trade, and productions fields. Several of those are extreamly important advantages. Look at the US in WW2. Shermans were inferior to German tanks in speed, armor, and firepower, but about 60,0000 of them were produced in five years. Each german tank would have to kill about 2,000 tanks each to get rid of that advantage. Same applys here. The question is, how many ISDs can a Soveriegn kill before being destroyed. I doubt a fleet of five Sovereigns could withsatnd the combined firepower of a fleet of 25 or 30 ISDs. You might be able to do guerilla attacks, but those will eventually wittle down your fleets to nothing.

Speed - pretty must every ST ship can outspeed an Imperial ship at sublight speeds. Transwarp and slipstream kick the crap out of Hyperspace.

Numbers - the Borg. The Dominion. Produced soldiers.

Attrition - the Borg. The Dominion. The Jem'Hadar will just keep on coming.

Trade - Necessary trades for the larger forces in ST is minimal. Replication technology and the recycling methods make ST FAR more efficient than the Empire (we've seen ISDs dump their garbage - Starfleet ships recycle everything.

Production - The Dominion creates soldiers from genetic coding. The Empire creates them from the populus. The Borg create soldiers from the Empire's populous. The Borg create ships from the Empire's stockpile.

[halo07guy]

I meant tactical speed. And I'm pretty sure were going with all races act as they normally do. And you wonder why it took so long to shift to a secondary bridge? The ship hit the DS2 about 30 seconds after the bridge was destroyed. In that timeframe, all the data from the sensors, hangers, turrets, fighters, and fleet would have to be transferred to the second bridge. Also, it is not that easy to destroy an ISD simply by knocking out the bridge. Theres still the shields. And I've looked it up online. Apparently, the domes are sensors equipped with local area shield generators to protect them. That means that they operate separate from the ships shields generator.

[FoolFromHell]

I meant tactical speed. And I'm pretty sure were going with all races act as they normally do. And you wonder why it took so long to shift to a secondary bridge? The ship hit the DS2 about 30 seconds after the bridge was destroyed. In that timeframe, all the data from the sensors, hangers, turrets, fighters, and fleet would have to be transferred to the second bridge. Also, it is not that easy to destroy an ISD simply by knocking out the bridge. Theres still the shields. And I've looked it up online. Apparently, the domes are sensors equipped with local area shield generators to protect them. That means that they operate separate from the ships shields generator.

Why did it hit the DS2?
Destroying the bridge sends its engines into full gear.
The second bridge has to decelerate AND, with Vader or the current commander dead (hes on the bridge), the command structure is gone.

Empire officers rely TOO MUCH on their superiors. Without the CO, the ship is as good as gone. Like that other dude said. The emperor dies, and the entire Empire collapses.

[halo07guy]

Not entirely true. The Empire took a decades to fall apart after the Emperors first death. You see, the force allows people to come back from the dead. The Emperor died 3 or 4 times beofre the Empire was finally destroyed.

[FoolFromHell]

Not entirely true. The Empire took a decades to fall apart after the Emperors first death. You see, the force allows people to come back from the dead. The Emperor died 3 or 4 times beofre the Empire was finally destroyed.

The original tyrannical empire fell apart almost immediately.
The Imperial Remnant was weak. It took years for the second empire that wasnt as BAD as the first one, to get power.

Seriously. Once the Emperor dies, the entire Empire goes into disarray for ATLEAST a few years.

[Lord Vasago]

I won't even try to figure out why those torpedoes are incredible then the next week it's not enough...Go figure.

my point exactly. Why don't the writers use some kind of layout in powers when they start writing. then there would be lot less mistakes.

[Lord Vasago]

filler. text in quotes.

It's not possible to warp around a ship.
Hell even 80% of lightspeed is way to fast.
If you fly at that speed your ship would be several times in the same space evry second. Plus going that fast in such a small space would give tremendous gforce that no ship can withstand. One human hair would crush your intire ship.

Think before you make sush a statement.

[FoolFromHell]

It's not possible to warp around a ship.
Hell even 80% of lightspeed is way to fast.
If you fly at that speed your ship would be several times in the same space evry second. Plus going that fast in such a small space would give tremendous gforce that no ship can withstand. One human hair would crush your intire ship.

Think before you make sush a statement.

#1, Inertian Dampners. There is NEVER any g-forces when going at max impulse (more than 80% speed of light).
And, the Picard Maneuver, shows that its possible to go to warp precisely the right moments.
Its possible for event the largest ST ships to run circles around the SDs at 80%+ the speed of light.

And, theres obviously a way to overcome relativity.

[Enterprise-D]

Still, they said it would take over half their torpedos to blow an asteroid. Couldn't they have just set one on high and fired it?

For the benefit of haloguy who might not have seen this...the 'half their torpedos' bit I assume is your recollection of the TNG episode where Riker said it'd take "most of our photon torpedos" to destroy an asteriod.

1. The asteroid was big enough to dwarf not only Enterprise-D but also a Romulan D'Deridex Warbird...which is twice as long as Enterprise-D. Matter of fact, Enterprise-D was small enough to travel inside the asteroid's caverns. I shall add a screenshot later for your benefit.

2. The job was not only to vaporize the asteroid. Riker was also under orders to ensure that the starship buried inside was also vaporized to hide a secret experiment by a Starfleet Admiral who was testing a cloaking device against the tenets of the Treaty of Algeron.

3. We actually don't know how many photon torpedos the Enterprise-D actually had at that point. They had not refreshed in a Starbase, so we have no way of knowing if it would have taken most of 40, or most of 275.


Further, in STVOY, Chakotay evaluated that it would take a single photon torp to vaporize what we might call a regular sized asteroid (about the size of a shuttlecraft). Also, in STVOY, the EMH evaluated a photon torpedo's power as being capable of levelling a city. Imagine then the damage 275 can do.

[Enterprise-D]

Can a Borg armada defeat a fleet on the oreder of hundreds of thousands of ships( About 23,000-24,000 ISDs from just one planet. Theres hundreds of such factory and shipyard planets.)?

Very very easily. The Borg Queen, Seven of Nine and Commander Tuvok have stated evidence of trillions of Borg drones, and millions of ships that already exist (ie do not need to be produced in a factory) in the Borg's Collective.

As stated before as well, from the first couple Cubes to be blown up by a turbolaser, every Cube/Sphere/Diamond after that would be completely immune to the weapon. From the first ISD to be assimilated, the Borg would have not only gained their first Borged ISD, but vital information of the military movements and capabilities listed in that ISD's databanks.

Also, I think we agrred that the Empire is far too large for ST to win, given that warp is relatively slow. It would have to conquer millions of worlds, each one part of a militaristic monarchy/dictatorship. In other words, ST loses in the logistics, speed, numbers, attrition, trade, and productions fields. Several of those are extreamly important advantages.

I agree with this insofar as Starfleet goes. The Terran/Vulcan Federation probably would be stretched too thinly to control the vastness that is the Star Wars empire. Starfleet would probably be able to defend successfully against an attack, but not retaliate in kind seeking conquest of the entire Empire.

However, since you include the Borg...please. The Star Trek Universe would easily conquer the Empire if the Borg are involved.

[FoolFromHell]

For the benefit of haloguy who might not have seen this...the 'half their torpedos' bit I assume is your recollection of the TNG episode where Riker said it'd take "most of our photon torpedos" to destroy an asteriod.

1. The asteroid was big enough to dwarf not only Enterprise-D but also a Romulan D'Deridex Warbird...which is twice as long as Enterprise-D. Matter of fact, Enterprise-D was small enough to travel inside the asteroid's caverns. I shall add a screenshot later for your benefit.

2. The job was not only to vaporize the asteroid. Riker was also under orders to ensure that the starship buried inside was also vaporized to hide a secret experiment by a Starfleet Admiral who was testing a cloaking device against the tenets of the Treaty of Algeron.

3. We actually don't know how many photon torpedos the Enterprise-D actually had at that point. They had not refreshed in a Starbase, so we have no way of knowing if it would have taken most of 40, or most of 275.


Further, in STVOY, Chakotay evaluated that it would take a single photon torp to vaporize what we might call a regular sized asteroid (about the size of a shuttlecraft). Also, in STVOY, the EMH evaluated a photon torpedo's power as being capable of levelling a city. Imagine then the damage 275 can do.

And if he means the episode with the asteroid about to hit the planet, the Photon Torpedos not only have to destroy the asteroid, they need to COMPLETELY vaporize all particles.
A car-sized asteroid traveling at those velocities can take out everything in a 100 mile radius.

[Enterprise-D]

And if he means the episode with the asteroid about to hit the planet, the Photon Torpedos not only have to destroy the asteroid, they need to COMPLETELY vaporize all particles.
A car-sized asteroid traveling at those velocities can take out everything in a 100 mile radius.

Which episode was this? 'Cost of Living'? Couldn't be 'Deja Q right'...that was a whole moon they had to move.

[Enterprise-D]

Be patient with me, I missed this one...

In voyager chicotas ex fired a torpedo at him on 20% yield. the only thing that happed was that the circuits in his shuttle where fried. (She knew it wouldn't be more damaging because it was her intention tho just fry the computers onboard.

Mostly correct, except Seska wasn't really Chakotay's ex...more of a psycho b*tch.

We are talking 20% here. So if you multiply that by 5 you get 100% wright? So if a Galaxy class can't be protected against her own torpedos; her shield can not be more than 5times powerfull as Chicotas shuttle.

I have three problems with this:

1. An antimatter matter reaction becomes more violent with more rxn elements. However, how do you know the power increase is linear? How do you know that a 20% yield is one fifth the antimatter...or one-onehundredth?

2. I already explained why a starship might be wary of it's own torps...

3. A shuttlecraft is not designed for combat. Its hull strength and defensive capabilities would be MUCH less than 20% of the capabilities of a Galaxy Class Starship. Therefore, a low yield torpedo short-circuiting a shuttle says nothing of what its mothership is capable of.

That leave two options a: Very powerfull torpedos
b: very weak shields
your pick.

The "very weak shields" is very linear thinking. Very powerful torpedos depends on the amount of explosive elements involved. And see above for other variables.

But if you need more than 280 torps to blow up a asteroid. (It may be a big one) than that leaves only option b don't you think

Your linear and misinformed evaluation leaves neither of these options actually.

I have explained the asteroid thing already. You don't know that it was 40, 72, 166 or 275 torpedos. Plus the size of the asteroid and the requirements of Riker's mission are key to this particular evaluation Warsies latch onto. It is likely that to vaporize that particular asteroid in one shot, that the Death Star itself would have been assigned to the task.

[Criti]

It's not possible to warp around a ship.
Hell even 80% of lightspeed is way to fast.
If you fly at that speed your ship would be several times in the same space evry second. Plus going that fast in such a small space would give tremendous gforce that no ship can withstand. One human hair would crush your intire ship.

Think before you make sush a statement.

Perhaps you should expose yourself to some ST canon before making such statements. We've been informed several times that Starfleet vessels (and indeed, pretty much everything in the ST universe) has Inertial Dampening technology. They can go from virtually standing still to Warp speed without so much as feeling the same kind of pressure we as modern people feel when accelerating our cars from 0 to 60.

We've also seen from ST canon that a Constellation-class vessel can do a PRECISION Warp jump from the range of a couple hundred thousand kilometers to a couple hundred meters. And Constellation ships are remarkably outdated in comparison to Nebula, Galaxy, Intrepid, Defiant, Sovereign, and Akira-class vessels. If a Constellation-class ship can do it - anything can do it.

[Enterprise-D]

Perhaps you should expose yourself to some ST canon before making such statements. We've been informed several times that Starfleet vessels (and indeed, pretty much everything in the ST universe) has Inertial Dampening technology. They can go from virtually standing still to Warp speed without so much as feeling the same kind of pressure we as modern people feel when accelerating our cars from 0 to 60.

We've also seen from ST canon that a Constellation-class vessel can do a PRECISION Warp jump from the range of a couple hundred thousand kilometers to a couple hundred meters. And Constellation ships are remarkably outdated in comparison to Nebula, Galaxy, Intrepid, Defiant, Sovereign, and Akira-class vessels. If a Constellation-class ship can do it - anything can do it.

Data has stated that while it was possible to do short warp jumps with Enterprise-D it was a remarkable waste of energy. Also I believe Voyager has done a couple short warp jumps.

The only stated problem with doing short warp jumping is the inefficient use of the energy reserves. However in a battle I hardly think they'd be thinking about inefficient energy expenditure.

[FoolFromHell]

Hey guys. i think I met TWScott on Reddit!
http://science.reddit.com/info/2lcmf/comments/c2ldcr

[Enterprise-D]

That is a very confusing conversation FFH

[Criti]

The only stated problem with doing short warp jumping is the inefficient use of the energy reserves. However in a battle I hardly think they'd be thinking about inefficient energy expenditure.

That'd certainly be the last thing on their mind. The Defiant once did a short Warp jump within the Bajor system. That's TWO no-nos. Short Warp jump. Warp inside a solar system. But when you gotta get the job done, you gotta get the job done.

[FoolFromHell]

That'd certainly be the last thing on their mind. The Defiant once did a short Warp jump within the Bajor system. That's TWO no-nos. Short Warp jump. Warp inside a solar system. But when you gotta get the job done, you gotta get the job done.

Well, thats not exactly a nono. Ships are completely capable of using warp inside the influence of gravity. unlike hyperspace.