08-29-07, 02:29 PM #7081
Being as how religion actually has some bearing on the world around us I would disagree. Do you ever read the news and see Star trek extremists blow up school bus, I think not.
08-29-07, 02:31 PM #7082
The problem is that there was an insertion of relative photon torpedo power in the TNG Tech manual that allowed for a derived calculation that is clearly inaccurate. The current United States can fart the amount of power the Warsies want to limit Trek photon torpedos to.
Matter of fact, the tech advisors on Trek strive to make measurements uncalculable. They quoted that the "quad" is a particular unit of data storage. When asked if they'd ever tell how many gigabytes that is, they said they'd never reveal anything like that. Because our technology might have surpassed it.
Similarly the correlation of photon torpedo power would have had to be a sad coincidence.
08-29-07, 02:33 PM #7083
08-29-07, 02:35 PM #7084
But, my response was supposed to get u to think that maybe, you should let the people who are enjoying their discussion exercise their right to flap their gums...or keyboards rather? The same way you'd let theists?
08-29-07, 02:37 PM #7085
08-29-07, 02:45 PM #7086
08-29-07, 02:47 PM #7087
I already did a few pages back...i guess i have to admit i am just frustrated at the conviction of st fans to not give any bit of slack. You damn kids and your sci fi =p
08-29-07, 07:36 PM #7088
Hey, I have admitted some points where SW has an advantage... just they aren't enough to overcome what ST has
08-29-07, 09:54 PM #7089
So...is this now the longest running thread ever on the internet?
08-30-07, 12:17 PM #7090
08-30-07, 12:47 PM #7091
08-30-07, 02:42 PM #7092
Doesn't a soldier who throws a grenade run in the opposite direction if he's too close? Same principle, avoid the splash damage.
Further, remember the fired torpedo had to leave the shields. We established before that the starships weaponry match the shield frequency such that the shields let them thru. If someone miraculously tractored a moving torpedo and flung it back at the starship it came from, it'd be quite effective if that starship did not change the shield harmonics...the torpedo would sail right thru and strike hull plates.
08-30-07, 08:52 PM #7093
Still, they said it would take over half their torpedos to blow an asteroid. Couldn't they have just set one on high and fired it?
08-30-07, 10:32 PM #7094
Depends on what the asteroid was made of... remember, it was large enough to HOLD a Galaxy class starship INSIDE it... probably pretty thick. And Torpedo's aren't the best at destroying rocks - they SHOULD have used a phaser drill but *meh* plot device ftl?
08-31-07, 05:23 AM #7095
That leave two options a: Very powerfull torpedos
b: very weak shields
But if you need more than 280 torps to blow up a asteroid. (It may be a big one) than that leaves only option b don't you think
08-31-07, 11:30 AM #7096
Not necessarily Vasago - do remember, photon torps are as powerful as a small warp core detonation, and we know how powerful THOSE are!
08-31-07, 02:40 PM #7097
It depends on what kind of warp core. One in a Galaxy-class is like a very, very, VERY big nuke going off on top of you. A small freighter's might be like a MOAB explosion. Esseintially, the larger the ship, the bigger the death radius. The one exception is, I think, experimental ships with prototype reactors. And if I'm not mistaken, I think I recall Spock in Undiscovered country saying that the Klingons having ion engines and the Enterprise having its ion engines called impulse engines. Or something along those lines.
09-01-07, 03:07 PM #7098
I won't even try to figure out why those torpedoes are incredible then the next week it's not enough...Go figure.
09-01-07, 06:16 PM #7099
I read through a few pages of this thread (only first came across it a few minutes ago), and decided to just make some comments. If these comments have already been made, I apologize.
Let me start by saying that I'm not making any claims either way as to which side would "win" or is "better" - I'm just injecting some thoughts about Trek into the conversation for people to consider.
And I'm probably going to discuss Starfleet and the Dominion the most here, so just be aware of that.
I'm also going to limit myself to straight canon (read: movies and television), since I cannot claim to be an expert on every piece of fiction written in the books on either side.
Finally - I'm going to try and avoid the whole "Well Vader would just sense it" argument and any related arguments (on either side - so I'm not going to assume that "oh... Data could do XXX"). The simple reason being logistics. Data, or Vader, or whomever, simply cannont be EVERYWHERE at one time - and I take the concept of a "SW vs ST" discussion to include more than just a single engagement. So yes - let's say now that Vader is quite powerful... but he's only one man in a galaxy of billions. As much as we want him to be, he can't be everywhere.
On the subject of ship boarding combat:
It was mentioned long ago that a team of Starfleet security would be royally boned should they beam onto the bridge of a Star Destroyer. It's true that Stormtroops are more heavily armoured, and they are more armed personnel on the SD Bridge than a boarding party would consist of, but it's also important to remember some of the extended features of Starfleet weaponry. We've seen at least once (well, I can only remember the one off the top of my head, but there may have been more) that Starfleet Phasers have a wide disperal setting. We've watched Tuvok disable all personnel of the Voyager's bridge in one shot before. Even a Jedi Knight is likely to have a difficult time deflecting a shot that fills a room
We know that Jem'Hadar vessels are equipped with Invasive Transporters. They are capable of cutting through enemy shielding, so even if the SW shields can deflect transporter beams, the Jem'Hadar would have no problems there. Furthermore, we know the Jem'Hadar have a method of personal cloaking - Jem'Hadar warriors are capable and getting extremely close to their foes before they realize what's about to hit them.
Stormtroopers can also be affected by morale situations (as witnessed by the group of Stormtroopers that tactically withdrew from Han Solo's position on the Death Star. Jem'Hadar have no such concerns. For them, victory is life. They will engage regardless of the cirumstance. And those who die will simply be replaced. If I recall correctly, a Jem'Hadar warrior is fully capable of combat and is lethal within 2 weeks of inception. Stormtroopers (assuming the Emperor still used the clone troops) took years to prepare, even with the growth acceleration.
On ship-to-ship combat:
There was a claim that all the Empire would have to do would be send wave after wave of TIE fighter at a Federation vessel and gradually wear down the shielding. There have been a number of instances in Star Trek in which a small ship geared up to open fire, only for us as viewers to be informed that the weapons on such a vessel were entirely incapable of even remotely harming the shields. So it's possible that the cannons on a TIE Fighter would be like a mosquito trying to take down a building. It's just not going to happen.
HOWEVER, that comment aside, it's also important to remember that phaser fire targetting scanners have been shown to be highly accurate, and that starships are not limited to just 1 or 2 bursts in a single shot. In Nemesis, we see the Enterprise-E go to town looking for that Romulan battlecruiser. It lets off a ton of shots in all directions at once... it'd be difficult for such small craft to affect a Federation starship. A station perhaps, but not a starship.
And in the Star Destroyer/Staship battle, the Star Destroyer seems to have some distinct weaknesses.
(1) No Battle Bridge. The loss of the Executioner's Bridge meant the loss of the Executioner.
(2) Poor sensors. Couldn't detect the Falcon when it slipped and attached behind them.
(3) A definite weak spot. The rear of the Star Destroyer is engines. The rear of a Galaxy Class Federation vessel has phaser capability (seen in DS9and TNG), and aft torpedo launchers. Some Federation ships even have phaser strips to cover the underbelly (Sovereign class Enterprise E in Nemesis - and that's not a battle cruiser... it's an explorer class vessel!).
Also, it'd definitely be interesting to see when the Prometheus-class starships went into full production (as seen in Voy Episodes: "Ship in a Bottle" and "Endgame"). Multi-Vectored Assault mode effectively turned 1 ship into 3.
Star Destroyer vs Dominion ships: Suicide tactis. Enough said really. Jem'Hadar have been seen to consistently smash right into opposing ships to thin out the numbers (key instances: the loss of the Oddysey, and the battle in "Sacrifice of Angels").
Later stage Dominion ships are also equipped with the Breen Energy Dampener. A ship mounted weapon that sucked the life out of a 300+ ship Fed/Rom/Klingon fleet in minutes.
Just some thoughts. Enjoy them.
Oh yes - before I forget. There was a comment that the Federation has shields, no speed. What about Defiant-class ships? Or the Federation fighter (seen in "Sacrifice of Angels)? Or the Akira-class ships? Or the Intrepid-class? Or the Prometheus-class? All of those were designed to be quick, combat vessels (the Defiant is specifically noted to be "overgunned and overpowered for a ship her size"). And they are all relatively small (fighter -> Defiant -> Intrepid -> Akira -> Prometheus in size). Not to mention the Delta Flyer - but I wouldn't dwell on that one since we don't know whether or not Starfleet put that design fully into production when Voyager got home.
09-01-07, 09:14 PM #7100
You got some things wrong. THe Ececutor had a secondary bridge, but apparently couldn't shift control to it in time. That much is canon. And the Empire stopped cloning after a clone rebellion and the fact that it would be far faster to just draft or recruit. Alos, to get to the rear of a ISD or SSD, it would have to go around the ship, past its weapons. Also, Federation ship's speed actually hinders them. They can't stay behind a SSD for long before crashing into it. Also, all Imperial ships have rear firing cannons. Remember, were talking about a 15 km long ship here. A heavy turbolaser is about the size of a small building. Of course it'll look like their not there when their on a ship that size. And do remember, logistics works against ST too. They can out-produce ST extreamly quickly, and if what Fettman said is true about 25,000 ISDs being built in one year, of which about 90-95% come from one planet, then ST doesn't stand much of a chance. Can a Borg armada defeat a fleet on the oreder of hundreds of thousands of ships( About 23,000-24,000 ISDs from just one planet. Theres hundreds of such factory and shipyard planets.)?
Also, I think we agrred that the Empire is far too large for ST to win, given that warp is relatively slow. It would have to conquer millions of worlds, each one part of a militaristic monarchy/dictatorship. In other words, ST loses in the logistics, speed, numbers, attrition, trade, and productions fields. Several of those are extreamly important advantages. Look at the US in WW2. Shermans were inferior to German tanks in speed, armor, and firepower, but about 60,0000 of them were produced in five years. Each german tank would have to kill about 2,000 tanks each to get rid of that advantage. Same applys here. The question is, how many ISDs can a Soveriegn kill before being destroyed. I doubt a fleet of five Sovereigns could withsatnd the combined firepower of a fleet of 25 or 30 ISDs. You might be able to do guerilla attacks, but those will eventually wittle down your fleets to nothing.
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