View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #6641
    Registered Senior Member
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    Yeah, I'm pretty logical for a fan.

    Hey Vasago, two things. Hows the book coming and do you know what happened to the guy who was doind simulations a while back?

  2. #6642
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterprise-D View Post
    I'm late on this one, nevertheless...
    I understand it takes time to invent stuff.

    Honeybuns...
    I could call you on sexual harrassment for that....

    1. (incidental point) The Borg 'homeworld' has never been displayed in canon Trek has it? You cannot assume that their planet would be unshielded, or lousy with antimatter. Stick to the canon TW.
    Excuse me, but if you remember correct Borg shields are WORTHLESS against a totally new attack form. They might as well not be there. Not untill the borg and capture some piece of technology to study and assimilate does there ability to Adapt their defenses even begin to work.

    As for the Antimatter I am sticking to the canon Borg construction philosophy, decentralization. Since the Borg use Anitmatter the same way the Feds do, as a power source. It is extremely likely that the surface is literaly littered with M/AM reactors.

    2. Nothing was shown about this Borg colony planet outside of a lack of shielding...no munitions count, no power plants no nothing. And you're right...had they never met Species 8472, a Warsie planet killer (Death Star or what have you) would have utterly decimated a targeted Borg planet or two. Now that the Borg have met a species that is able to strike a planet and dust it, you may assume (by canon behaviour) that they WILL indeed be ready for future planetary attacks, forever more, resistance is futile.
    Nothing was shown that the planet was shieded. The Planet was inhabited and the Borg have one industry, Assimilation, for which they need weapons. So it is safe to assume the planet was producing Antimatter and munitions.

    Second, the Borg are powerful, however even they are vulnerable to brute force. People have been hitting them with melee weappons for thousands of year, yet not one of them has shown any resistance to melee attacks.

    1. Actually the easiest assumption to make is that 8 bioships can blow any unshielded planet to bits. No calculations.
    Would be easy, but incorrect Occam's razor does not allow you to ignore visual evidence. If all eight ships were identical you would have a point, but they aren't, making your statement a lie.

    2. Saquist's amplifier explanation is the easier one. Capacitor TW? Why would you need 7 other ships to activate a capacitor? That is really stupid. A step-up transformer exist in today's society, it is extremely easy to imagine such a principle being applied to weapons development.
    Okay, first of all A step up transformer does not work as you think. The total energy running through the lines is not changed. To step up the voltage form say 100v to 220v you have to step down the current. The fact that voltage and current get “stepped” in opposite directions (one up, the other down) makes perfect sense when you recall that power is equal to voltage times current, and realize that transformers cannot produce power, only convert it. Any device that could output more power than it took in would violate the Law of Energy Conservation in physics, namely that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted. As with the first transformer example we looked at, power transfer efficiency is very good from the primary to the secondary sides of the device. Read more here.....

    Seconf the capacitor idea makes much more sense, think of it if 90% of the ship was a hyper effiecent but volatile energy storage medium, 5% was hull engine and command and 5% was the DET device then the seven ships could be using their energy to prime the DET weapon for fire. It makes much more sense than an amplifier.

    3. Voyager has been attacked on both Species episodes. Voyager (by plot device) was extremely lucky to survive in both cases, having been hit only by glancing blows - favouring evasive moves against 8472, unlike the Borg's frontal assault/no retreat tactics.

    I get from glancing at the previous argument, that there arose a question of Species 8472 v the Empire. It is under this umbrella only that I allow for Voyager's awesome Janewayness to be sullied
    However even a glancing blow of > 1.25E38 would leave nothing of voyager left but dust.

    As for Janeway, that woman should have been shot. Instead of being a real captain and sacrificing herself to save her crew, ala Admiral Kirk in Generation, she succked them into years of hell. She wasn't a Captain, she was a moron.

  3. #6643
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoolFromHell View Post
    Nobody won yet and Scott doesnt ever admit to anything.
    I actually have admitted a lot. ST has...
    • Improved Tactical Speed: The ability to make Microwarp jumps to retreat/join battle is formifdable advantage. Impulse has the advantage of faster acceleration to maximum speed.
    • More versatile Hand weaponry: the ability to use your phaser to weld, cook, drill, cut, and melt is a big step up in versatility.
    • College Educated Officer: Almost every starfleet offiver seems to have minored in something. Be is Archaelogoly, Anthropology, Linguisitics, 20th Century Humor.....Of course some degrees are better than others.


    So far, I think we have admitted that ST sensors are better.
    Actually I would came they are the same. ST has lost too many ships in a planets magnetic poles to claim to have good sensors.

    So far, Trek has won the sensors and tactical speed. And the fact that SSDs have very weak shielding on their bridges, making for an easy hit.
    Trek hasn't won on these points. they just declared victory becuase they wanted to on the sensor part, though i will claim tie. ST has better Life Form sensors and SW has better gravity sensors.

    As for the Shielding thing, where have you seen an attack on a shielded bridge? In ESB the shield was down to transmit to Holonet, in ROTJ they said in plain english the shield had been lost.

  4. #6644
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    I actually have admitted a lot. ST has...
    • Improved Tactical Speed: The ability to make Microwarp jumps to retreat/join battle is formifdable advantage. Impulse has the advantage of faster acceleration to maximum speed.
    • More versatile Hand weaponry: the ability to use your phaser to weld, cook, drill, cut, and melt is a big step up in versatility.
    • College Educated Officer: Almost every starfleet offiver seems to have minored in something. Be is Archaelogoly, Anthropology, Linguisitics, 20th Century Humor.....Of course some degrees are better than others.




    Actually I would came they are the same. ST has lost too many ships in a planets magnetic poles to claim to have good sensors.



    Trek hasn't won on these points. they just declared victory becuase they wanted to on the sensor part, though i will claim tie. ST has better Life Form sensors and SW has better gravity sensors.

    As for the Shielding thing, where have you seen an attack on a shielded bridge? In ESB the shield was down to transmit to Holonet, in ROTJ they said in plain english the shield had been lost.
    Finally. Some rational talk from you.
    The shielding is strong. we understand.
    But the HULL is weak.
    A single A-Wing should NOT under ANY circumstances, destroy the bridge of a SUPER STAR DESTROYER...
    The bridge has extremely weak hull, and since SW cant detect ships at warp (no mass, thus no gravity at warp), and SW has no experience tracking FTL stuff thats not in hyperspace. So, before SW shields go up, a small Federation strike force can jump in, take out the bridge, and jump out...
    brb. dinner. Then ill continue this.

  5. #6645
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    *sighs*

    Trek would win in the end.

    Why?

    1) Warp results in almost zero mass which means gravimetric sensors would fail. The ONLY way to detect them would be subspace sensors (which Wars never mentions) or tracking the Spacial Distortion left from conventional warp drives - ships like the Intrepid, the Soveriegn, the Prometheus, and most MODERN post-TNG era starships have new warp drives that remove this effect. Electromagnetic sensors are FAR too slow to detect a ship at warp.

    2) Weapons accuracy - need I say more? How often do you see a phaser strike MISS in Star Trek? And we're talking targets moving 100x the speed of an X-Wing... at impulse no less. We have seen evidence of warp-strafing with torpedos and disruptors (TNG for Torps, Nemesis for disruptors) so OBVIOUSLY the weapons can exceed the warp speed of the ship AND sustain it to impact a vessel traveling at a comparable warp speed.

    3) Tactical manuverability and speed - you already conceded this, so I don't think I need to go into this.

    4) Shield and armor technology - a single shield defends against physical and energy based weapons equally effectively, including impacts from comparably large objects (1/1000th the size of the ship itself) and the armor of a starship has shown the ability to effectively repel collisions with a smaller body. Obviously another starship is a different story . In comparison, an A-wing at what, 1/1,000,000th the size of the Exeq owned the ship horribly. Granted, the shields were down... but still. It's a fucking fighter. The Enterprise-D ALMOST survived a collision with a Miranda class starship- that's 1/3rd the size and 1/5th the mass... and it was going damn near full impulse and both ships were full of volatile anti-matter... had they not been experiencing power troubles they would have survived just fine.

    I could go on...

  6. #6646
    Also, you could get specialized torpedoes that go to the edge of the SW planetary shield and warp through or transport through...
    In DS9, they had the guns that could shoot through any kind of wall...

  7. #6647
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    True, but those were kind of rare. It was a specialized sniper rifle with a micro-transporter.

  8. #6648
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    True, but those were kind of rare. It was a specialized sniper rifle with a micro-transporter.
    Guess so... but send in a cloaked stealth-ship with a crew of highly-trained operatives with these rifles and with personal steal generators...
    The Empire will have NO idea what hit them!
    SW shields are down when not in combat with a foe of equal size, evidenced by the fact that Solo manages to attach to the ISD hull. Which wouldnt have been possible if the shields were up.
    Hell. A Jem' Hadar planetary assault ship can warp in when enemy shields go down. They beam over a few thousand Jem' Hadar troops to the enemy ship...
    The Defiant is the same size as the Falcon, right?
    ISD commanders, much less, SSD commanders, wouldnt raise their ships when staring down the "puny" ship.
    What they DONT know is that Worf commands that ship...
    HAHA. Poor idiots.

  9. #6649
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    The Defiant is a fair bit larger than the Falcon. The Falcon is about 35 meters long, the Defiant is, officially, 122 meters long.

    The thing is, the USS Avenger (Worfs ship) has a Romulan cloaking device. If I'm not mistaken, it's the only ship (other than the Scimitar) to be able to FIRE thru the cloak, though at the cost of some power drain on life support, shields, and engines. Though a few strafes of pulse phaser fire = bye bye SSD Bridge.

  10. #6650
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    The thing is, the USS Avenger (Worfs ship) has a Romulan cloaking device. If I'm not mistaken, it's the only ship (other than the Scimitar) to be able to FIRE thru the cloak, though at the cost of some power drain on life support, shields, and engines. Though a few strafes of pulse phaser fire = bye bye SSD Bridge.
    Wasn't the Avenger on Star Trek Armada?

  11. #6651
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    The Avenger was mentioned in First Contact (or was it the Defiant... I forget... don't remember if DS9's was Avenger or Defiant)

  12. #6652
    Registered Member
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    what would the star trek guys do against world devastators,the gaxlay gun,centerpoint station,and the star forge which can create fleets in days

  13. #6653
    Registered Senior Member
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    Hello all
    What where those shields called that let ships go joy riding in and about a stars surface. Stick a planet up that close and its toast. Does SW have anything even close?


  14. #6654
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    They were MetaPhasic Shields.

    As for World Devastators et all, easy.

    Star Forge - TriCobalt Devices to form a subspace rift and suck it out of this reality.

    Galaxy Gun - no need to worry about it. Few photon torps up the egress port and it's disabled.

    Centerpoint Station - isn't that dormant (or destroyed?) already?

    World Devastators - TriCobalt or Quantum torpedos would make short work of them since Star Wars neutronium is NOT the impregnable substance known in Star Trek as Neutronium.

  15. #6655
    I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Enterprise-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    I understand it takes time to invent stuff.
    Cheeky aren't you?


    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    I could call you on sexual harrassment for that....
    No you couldn't, I'm not in your country, hence outside the bounds and jurisdiction of your law enforcement for such a minor inconvenience. You could tell the mods however. Sweetie-pie.

    But then I could counter you in that I've not actually insulted you, but you have insulted scores of posters, including myself, on quite a number of responses. Sugar lump.


    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Excuse me, but if you remember correct Borg shields are WORTHLESS against a totally new attack form. They might as well not be there. Not untill the borg and capture some piece of technology to study and assimilate does there ability to Adapt their defenses even begin to work.
    I did tell u this. But since the homeworld is never shown, but their ability to incorporate different strategies per ship (eg the ship holding the Queen is always superior)...you may not assume that the homeworld defenses are as slow to adapt. After all, the Borg hive mind is there.

    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    As for the Antimatter I am sticking to the canon Borg construction philosophy, decentralization. Since the Borg use Anitmatter the same way the Feds do, as a power source. It is extremely likely that the surface is literaly littered with M/AM reactors.
    Please provide evidence that any Borg planet (not a ship mind you) is littered with Antimatter reactors as opposed to an assimilated geothermal technology? And further, please provide evidence that the surface is littered with them as opposed to underground?


    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Nothing was shown that the planet was shieded. The Planet was inhabited and the Borg have one industry, Assimilation, for which they need weapons. So it is safe to assume the planet was producing Antimatter and munitions.
    No I disagree, they don't need weapons for assimilation. They only need nanobots and a method of deploying said nanobots. They need weapons to subdue a resistant target.


    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Second, the Borg are powerful, however even they are vulnerable to brute force. People have been hitting them with melee weappons for thousands of year, yet not one of them has shown any resistance to melee attacks.
    This is quite strange indeed (of course overlooking the glaring assumption that people have been hitting the borg for thousands of years with melee weapons...you have no canon evidence of this); the only way I can explain this is that is that melee attacks on the ground have generally been accompanied by hand energy weapons. The Borg still have little experience with literal melee attacks...I can recall three: STFC - Worf attacks with a bat'leth however these soldiers are removed from the timeline; STTNG Best of Both Worlds - Worf and Data struggle with a single Borg drone guarding Locutus; STVOY Unimatrix Zero - Janeway goes all Wonder Woman on a Borg drone with a bat'leth, however this is in Unimatrix Zero, removed from the collective.

    Actually technically four, but the drones under Lore's control don't count as Collective experience as they were disconnected from the hive mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Would be easy, but incorrect Occam's razor does not allow you to ignore visual evidence. If all eight ships were identical you would have a point, but they aren't, making your statement a lie.
    This is nitpicking TW. Species 8472 would have more than one combination of these 8 ships. Clearly, they have the ability to do this more than the once, even if these were the only 8 ships capable of destroying a planet, none of them were destroyed...leaving 8472 with the ability to do it again.


    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Okay, first of all A step up transformer does not work as you think.
    I'm aware exactly how a step up transformer works. I was just pointing out that it would be easy to imagine a method of amplifying power, realising that current technology includes a method of stepping up potential difference, and further that power is directly proportional to potential difference. Since the beam is not electricity (hence not current), the Power formula would be P = SV, where S (substituting for current) would be whatever Species weapon variable calculation is necessary for the ratio by which P would be related to V in this case. V (potential difference) is not necessarily electrical btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Seconf the capacitor idea makes much more sense, think of it if 90% of the ship was a hyper effiecent but volatile energy storage medium, 5% was hull engine and command and 5% was the DET device then the seven ships could be using their energy to prime the DET weapon for fire. It makes much more sense than an amplifier.
    This is heights of fantacrap.

    1. Where do you get the gall to assume that the energy storage medium is volatile? Where do you get the gall to assume that said energy storage medium requires 90% of the ship?

    2. A capacitor can be self sustaining even in our tech; there's absolutely no need, NONE, for an external catalyst for a capacitor. If the middle ship was indeed based on some sort of capacitor tech all they need is a button to release a predetermined and preconfigured charge.

    3. If the 7 ships were feeding your capacitor, why not just all 7 fire at the same point on the planet and dispense with the capacitor ship? That would mean that any 7 of the more common Species 8472 vessels have the power to blast a planet apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    However even a glancing blow of > 1.25E38 would leave nothing of voyager left but dust.
    Blah, more SW unproven hype.

    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    As for Janeway, that woman should have been shot. Instead of being a real captain and sacrificing herself to save her crew, ala Admiral Kirk in Generation, she succked them into years of hell. She wasn't a Captain, she was a moron.
    Well, there'd have been no STVOY series for us to enjoy TW. You're quite selective about plot devices aren't u.
    Last edited by Enterprise-D; 08-07-07 at 10:50 AM.

  16. #6656
    Registered Senior Member
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    So no one knows what happened to TinFoilHat and his simulations?

    There's one very big problem with the Galaxy Gun and Star Forge. You would have to get close enough to destroy them, and warp has been agreed to be slower.
    Anyway, I have one thing about SW shields. The Yavin base in Epi.4 was powered by a ISD reactor and shield generator that could hold out against bombardment for months.

    Anyway, this is likely to be a one-sided fight. Even if SW ships are weaker, they still out produce you and have fewer internal enemys then ST. I mean ST has to put up with the Borg, the Dominion, 8472, and nuemarous others while Sw really only has the Yuuzhan Vong, Ssi-Russk, and rebels, the last of which was not considered much of a threat ( The rebels were losing every engaement before Luke came along).

    Also, Lord, the Star Forge was createing hundreds of capital ship every second. In one minute, the thing would have a massive armada comprising of about a thousand or so capital ships. And each one is fully crewed and fully stocked.

    This is like WW2 all over again, except SW is in the Allies place and ST in the Germans place. The Borg are kind of like the Japanese ( No-sense of self-prservation and LOTS of soldiers). Superior weapons mean nothing if you can't produce enough of them. The Germans during WW2 produced about 5,000 tanks. The Americans, however, produced about 25,000 of just one kind of tank. The Germans had jets but couldn't field enough of them at a time. This will be a one-sided battle just like WW2.

  17. #6657
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    TW fails to realize that she didn't have the option to sacrifice herself. She, as you could quite EASILY determine, had no idea how the hell to operate the caretaker array. Nor was she fit for the task as, unlike Caretaker, she wouldn't live actively much after 90 years of age without the aid of medical technology that the Caretaker (being a NON HUMAN SPECIES) did not have.

  18. #6658
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo07guy View Post
    So no one knows what happened to TinFoilHat and his simulations?

    There's one very big problem with the Galaxy Gun and Star Forge. You would have to get close enough to destroy them, and warp has been agreed to be
    slower.

    Doesn't mater mate as we have already determined that Star Wars could not detect a ship at Warp speed- no mass, no gravitic signature. No EM output as EM radiation would be too slow to exceed the speed of the ship(you'd be chasing ghosts). Magnetic resonant scanning might work... if you're already within visual range.

    Anyway, I have one thing about SW shields. The Yavin base in Epi.4 was powered by a ISD reactor and shield generator that could hold out against bombardment for months.

    Anyway, this is likely to be a one-sided fight. Even if SW ships are weaker, they still out produce you and have fewer internal enemys then ST. I mean ST has to put up with the Borg, the Dominion, 8472, and nuemarous others while Sw really only has the Yuuzhan Vong, Ssi-Russk, and rebels, the last of which was not considered much of a threat ( The rebels were losing every engaement before Luke came along).

    Here's the thing Halo, we are doing this one of two ways:

    1) All of ST and all of SW against each other. This means that all parties involved lay aside their differences and help their genre to fight. This means Borg, Romulans, Dominion, 8472, Voth, Federation, Klingons, Ferengi, Gorn, Myrack, Orion Pirates, Cardassians, Q, et all fighting against the Rebels, Empire, Pirate factions, Vong, and whatever else SW has as far as people that still exist.

    2) All parties in both genres act as they would in real life. This means that the Federation/Romulans/Klingons are allied together (as they are post nemesis). 8472 would likely stay in Fluidic space unless someone really pissed them off. There are Borg that work with the Federation (VOYAGER) and they would help the Fed/Rom/Klink alliance rather than let themselves be destroyed (if it should come to that). Though if your ships are as powerful as you claim, the Borg will attempt to gain access to them at all costs. This means full scale invasion. The Gorn/Myrak/Hydran/Lyran and other smaller races are also allies of the Federation, along with the Vulcans and, if I'm not mistaken, the Andorians. Who is allied in Star Wars? The Rebels and Imperial Remenents would most likely NEVER work together... given their hatred for one another in the movies, yeah. That and the Empire (and indeed therefor it's production capabilities) is all but destroyed... The Vong and Rebels would not be too likely to work together...

    See what I mean?


    Also, Lord, the Star Forge was createing hundreds of capital ship every second. In one minute, the thing would have a massive armada comprising of about a thousand or so capital ships. And each one is fully crewed and fully stocked.

    And uh, how did they explain how this was possible? You can't really just create crewmen out of thin air... though this would explain their lack of intellectual combat strategy...

    and nobody answered me - hasn't the StarForge been destroyed already? You want to bring dead-tech back, alright. I will bring the Tactical Fusion Cube into play...


    This is like WW2 all over again, except SW is in the Allies place and ST in the Germans place. The Borg are kind of like the Japanese ( No-sense of self-prservation and LOTS of soldiers). Superior weapons mean nothing if you can't produce enough of them. The Germans during WW2 produced about 5,000 tanks. The Americans, however, produced about 25,000 of just one kind of tank. The Germans had jets but couldn't field enough of them at a time. This will be a one-sided battle just like WW2.
    Uhm... not really... WW2 came down to, in the end, the USA and UK kicking the shit out of Germany and Japan and Italy in the naval engagements, slowly working towards the land battles. When Germany betrayed Russia, they sealed their fate... I don't see any of the races in ST betraying one another when their very SURVIVAL is at stake. And do remember, we're talking current timeline... if you want to say past vessels and crew can fight, alright. We get the people that made the dyson sphere, the genesis device, and the doomsday machine. I don't think I need to say any more than that to show why allowing dead people to live for this fight is bad for Star Wars.

    maha. Valid arguments Halo... but some of them hurt you more than they help mate.

  19. #6659
    I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Enterprise-D's Avatar
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    Sorry, the Star Wars Empire is a dictatorship (parallel to WW2 Germany)...democracy lost in this universe. The Star Trek Federation is the democracy.

    Therefore behavioural parallels in place, SW's Empire would seek its own interests even in the midst of a war as Kitt points out, whereas Starfleet would seek to ally with the most powerful races it could find, probably inclusive of the Empire trodden peoples in the Wars universe.

  20. #6660
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    your forgeting that SW has more faction than just the empire and rebels.there are mandalorians,yuuzhan vong,black sun pirates,the sith,the jedi,and others i might have forgotten.each of these has a large space fleet and awesome ground troops.
    Last edited by lord305; 08-07-07 at 01:37 PM.

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