08-06-07, 05:49 PM #6641
Yeah, I'm pretty logical for a fan.
Hey Vasago, two things. Hows the book coming and do you know what happened to the guy who was doind simulations a while back?
08-06-07, 08:24 PM #6642
1. (incidental point) The Borg 'homeworld' has never been displayed in canon Trek has it? You cannot assume that their planet would be unshielded, or lousy with antimatter. Stick to the canon TW.
As for the Antimatter I am sticking to the canon Borg construction philosophy, decentralization. Since the Borg use Anitmatter the same way the Feds do, as a power source. It is extremely likely that the surface is literaly littered with M/AM reactors.
2. Nothing was shown about this Borg colony planet outside of a lack of shielding...no munitions count, no power plants no nothing. And you're right...had they never met Species 8472, a Warsie planet killer (Death Star or what have you) would have utterly decimated a targeted Borg planet or two. Now that the Borg have met a species that is able to strike a planet and dust it, you may assume (by canon behaviour) that they WILL indeed be ready for future planetary attacks, forever more, resistance is futile.
Second, the Borg are powerful, however even they are vulnerable to brute force. People have been hitting them with melee weappons for thousands of year, yet not one of them has shown any resistance to melee attacks.
1. Actually the easiest assumption to make is that 8 bioships can blow any unshielded planet to bits. No calculations.
2. Saquist's amplifier explanation is the easier one. Capacitor TW? Why would you need 7 other ships to activate a capacitor? That is really stupid. A step-up transformer exist in today's society, it is extremely easy to imagine such a principle being applied to weapons development.
Seconf the capacitor idea makes much more sense, think of it if 90% of the ship was a hyper effiecent but volatile energy storage medium, 5% was hull engine and command and 5% was the DET device then the seven ships could be using their energy to prime the DET weapon for fire. It makes much more sense than an amplifier.
3. Voyager has been attacked on both Species episodes. Voyager (by plot device) was extremely lucky to survive in both cases, having been hit only by glancing blows - favouring evasive moves against 8472, unlike the Borg's frontal assault/no retreat tactics.
I get from glancing at the previous argument, that there arose a question of Species 8472 v the Empire. It is under this umbrella only that I allow for Voyager's awesome Janewayness to be sullied
As for Janeway, that woman should have been shot. Instead of being a real captain and sacrificing herself to save her crew, ala Admiral Kirk in Generation, she succked them into years of hell. She wasn't a Captain, she was a moron.
08-06-07, 08:39 PM #6643
- Improved Tactical Speed: The ability to make Microwarp jumps to retreat/join battle is formifdable advantage. Impulse has the advantage of faster acceleration to maximum speed.
- More versatile Hand weaponry: the ability to use your phaser to weld, cook, drill, cut, and melt is a big step up in versatility.
- College Educated Officer: Almost every starfleet offiver seems to have minored in something. Be is Archaelogoly, Anthropology, Linguisitics, 20th Century Humor.....Of course some degrees are better than others.
So far, I think we have admitted that ST sensors are better.
So far, Trek has won the sensors and tactical speed. And the fact that SSDs have very weak shielding on their bridges, making for an easy hit.
As for the Shielding thing, where have you seen an attack on a shielded bridge? In ESB the shield was down to transmit to Holonet, in ROTJ they said in plain english the shield had been lost.
08-06-07, 09:04 PM #6644
The shielding is strong. we understand.
But the HULL is weak.
A single A-Wing should NOT under ANY circumstances, destroy the bridge of a SUPER STAR DESTROYER...
The bridge has extremely weak hull, and since SW cant detect ships at warp (no mass, thus no gravity at warp), and SW has no experience tracking FTL stuff thats not in hyperspace. So, before SW shields go up, a small Federation strike force can jump in, take out the bridge, and jump out...
brb. dinner. Then ill continue this.
08-06-07, 10:02 PM #6645
Trek would win in the end.
1) Warp results in almost zero mass which means gravimetric sensors would fail. The ONLY way to detect them would be subspace sensors (which Wars never mentions) or tracking the Spacial Distortion left from conventional warp drives - ships like the Intrepid, the Soveriegn, the Prometheus, and most MODERN post-TNG era starships have new warp drives that remove this effect. Electromagnetic sensors are FAR too slow to detect a ship at warp.
2) Weapons accuracy - need I say more? How often do you see a phaser strike MISS in Star Trek? And we're talking targets moving 100x the speed of an X-Wing... at impulse no less. We have seen evidence of warp-strafing with torpedos and disruptors (TNG for Torps, Nemesis for disruptors) so OBVIOUSLY the weapons can exceed the warp speed of the ship AND sustain it to impact a vessel traveling at a comparable warp speed.
3) Tactical manuverability and speed - you already conceded this, so I don't think I need to go into this.
4) Shield and armor technology - a single shield defends against physical and energy based weapons equally effectively, including impacts from comparably large objects (1/1000th the size of the ship itself) and the armor of a starship has shown the ability to effectively repel collisions with a smaller body. Obviously another starship is a different story . In comparison, an A-wing at what, 1/1,000,000th the size of the Exeq owned the ship horribly. Granted, the shields were down... but still. It's a fucking fighter. The Enterprise-D ALMOST survived a collision with a Miranda class starship- that's 1/3rd the size and 1/5th the mass... and it was going damn near full impulse and both ships were full of volatile anti-matter... had they not been experiencing power troubles they would have survived just fine.
I could go on...
08-06-07, 10:30 PM #6646
Also, you could get specialized torpedoes that go to the edge of the SW planetary shield and warp through or transport through...
In DS9, they had the guns that could shoot through any kind of wall...
08-06-07, 10:48 PM #6647
True, but those were kind of rare. It was a specialized sniper rifle with a micro-transporter.
08-06-07, 11:37 PM #6648
The Empire will have NO idea what hit them!
SW shields are down when not in combat with a foe of equal size, evidenced by the fact that Solo manages to attach to the ISD hull. Which wouldnt have been possible if the shields were up.
Hell. A Jem' Hadar planetary assault ship can warp in when enemy shields go down. They beam over a few thousand Jem' Hadar troops to the enemy ship...
The Defiant is the same size as the Falcon, right?
ISD commanders, much less, SSD commanders, wouldnt raise their ships when staring down the "puny" ship.
What they DONT know is that Worf commands that ship...
HAHA. Poor idiots.
08-06-07, 11:57 PM #6649
The Defiant is a fair bit larger than the Falcon. The Falcon is about 35 meters long, the Defiant is, officially, 122 meters long.
The thing is, the USS Avenger (Worfs ship) has a Romulan cloaking device. If I'm not mistaken, it's the only ship (other than the Scimitar) to be able to FIRE thru the cloak, though at the cost of some power drain on life support, shields, and engines. Though a few strafes of pulse phaser fire = bye bye SSD Bridge.
08-07-07, 12:58 AM #6650
08-07-07, 01:45 AM #6651
The Avenger was mentioned in First Contact (or was it the Defiant... I forget... don't remember if DS9's was Avenger or Defiant)
08-07-07, 01:53 AM #6652
what would the star trek guys do against world devastators,the gaxlay gun,centerpoint station,and the star forge which can create fleets in days
08-07-07, 02:21 AM #6653
What where those shields called that let ships go joy riding in and about a stars surface. Stick a planet up that close and its toast. Does SW have anything even close?
08-07-07, 02:30 AM #6654
They were MetaPhasic Shields.
As for World Devastators et all, easy.
Star Forge - TriCobalt Devices to form a subspace rift and suck it out of this reality.
Galaxy Gun - no need to worry about it. Few photon torps up the egress port and it's disabled.
Centerpoint Station - isn't that dormant (or destroyed?) already?
World Devastators - TriCobalt or Quantum torpedos would make short work of them since Star Wars neutronium is NOT the impregnable substance known in Star Trek as Neutronium.
08-07-07, 08:57 AM #6655
But then I could counter you in that I've not actually insulted you, but you have insulted scores of posters, including myself, on quite a number of responses. Sugar lump.
Actually technically four, but the drones under Lore's control don't count as Collective experience as they were disconnected from the hive mind.
1. Where do you get the gall to assume that the energy storage medium is volatile? Where do you get the gall to assume that said energy storage medium requires 90% of the ship?
2. A capacitor can be self sustaining even in our tech; there's absolutely no need, NONE, for an external catalyst for a capacitor. If the middle ship was indeed based on some sort of capacitor tech all they need is a button to release a predetermined and preconfigured charge.
3. If the 7 ships were feeding your capacitor, why not just all 7 fire at the same point on the planet and dispense with the capacitor ship? That would mean that any 7 of the more common Species 8472 vessels have the power to blast a planet apart.
Last edited by Enterprise-D; 08-07-07 at 10:50 AM.
08-07-07, 11:16 AM #6656
So no one knows what happened to TinFoilHat and his simulations?
There's one very big problem with the Galaxy Gun and Star Forge. You would have to get close enough to destroy them, and warp has been agreed to be slower.
Anyway, I have one thing about SW shields. The Yavin base in Epi.4 was powered by a ISD reactor and shield generator that could hold out against bombardment for months.
Anyway, this is likely to be a one-sided fight. Even if SW ships are weaker, they still out produce you and have fewer internal enemys then ST. I mean ST has to put up with the Borg, the Dominion, 8472, and nuemarous others while Sw really only has the Yuuzhan Vong, Ssi-Russk, and rebels, the last of which was not considered much of a threat ( The rebels were losing every engaement before Luke came along).
Also, Lord, the Star Forge was createing hundreds of capital ship every second. In one minute, the thing would have a massive armada comprising of about a thousand or so capital ships. And each one is fully crewed and fully stocked.
This is like WW2 all over again, except SW is in the Allies place and ST in the Germans place. The Borg are kind of like the Japanese ( No-sense of self-prservation and LOTS of soldiers). Superior weapons mean nothing if you can't produce enough of them. The Germans during WW2 produced about 5,000 tanks. The Americans, however, produced about 25,000 of just one kind of tank. The Germans had jets but couldn't field enough of them at a time. This will be a one-sided battle just like WW2.
08-07-07, 11:17 AM #6657
TW fails to realize that she didn't have the option to sacrifice herself. She, as you could quite EASILY determine, had no idea how the hell to operate the caretaker array. Nor was she fit for the task as, unlike Caretaker, she wouldn't live actively much after 90 years of age without the aid of medical technology that the Caretaker (being a NON HUMAN SPECIES) did not have.
08-07-07, 11:28 AM #6658
maha. Valid arguments Halo... but some of them hurt you more than they help mate.
08-07-07, 12:05 PM #6659
Sorry, the Star Wars Empire is a dictatorship (parallel to WW2 Germany)...democracy lost in this universe. The Star Trek Federation is the democracy.
Therefore behavioural parallels in place, SW's Empire would seek its own interests even in the midst of a war as Kitt points out, whereas Starfleet would seek to ally with the most powerful races it could find, probably inclusive of the Empire trodden peoples in the Wars universe.
08-07-07, 12:35 PM #6660
your forgeting that SW has more faction than just the empire and rebels.there are mandalorians,yuuzhan vong,black sun pirates,the sith,the jedi,and others i might have forgotten.each of these has a large space fleet and awesome ground troops.
Last edited by lord305; 08-07-07 at 01:37 PM.
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