View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #6601
    Other than Scott, does ANYONE object to the power of the 8472 bioship?

  2. #6602
    Registered Senior Member
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    I kinda do. I admit they are powerful, but the ability to destroy a planet does indeed seem to come from groupings of the ships plus some other kind. Maybe it works on an organic form of the principal behind the Death Star?

  3. #6603
    Quote Originally Posted by halo07guy View Post
    I kinda do. I admit they are powerful, but the ability to destroy a planet does indeed seem to come from groupings of the ships plus some other kind. Maybe it works on an organic form of the principal behind the Death Star?
    I understand, but 8472 has NO Enemies in fluidic space which allows them to manufacture more unhindered, and thousands upon thousands of ships. If Each 8 ships can destroy a PLANET thats inhabited by BORG, which usually makes it very tough nut to crack... Its reasonable to assume that each ship has enough POWER to blow up a planet with 1/8 the mass of a habitable planet (Earth Sized)

  4. #6604
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo07guy View Post
    There is a diffrence between hitting armor and hitting the inside of the ship. It is the same as a tank hitting the fron of an Abrams with a shell and there being an explosion, but nary a scratch on it, and then a shell going through the hatch on the top and detonating inside. Armor has certain effects on weapons. Its not just firepower that matters. Its the armor that matters too. And your reasoning gives proof to it losing shields shortly before that broadside. And you have to remember, when you have a broadsid in which half the heavy guns are firing extreamly rapidly, about once every 1/2 second, then it is no surprise the shields were. The Munifcent- class frigates on the CIS side had powerful primary cannons that could blast met a small moon. If a ship got hit by that, of course its shields would be down.
    Well, they obviously damaged through the armour, I know that. But why would they lose sheilds and suddenly the CIS stops fireing? (beforehand)

  5. #6605
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    1,265
    I have also realized that an over a million clone army is not possible because of replication drift.

  6. #6606
    Registered Senior Member
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    400
    Maybe in ST, but the Kaminoans were the most skilled cloners in the Galaxy. Their entire race depended on it for survival. They created colnes that were exact replicas of the original, down to the accent and the cells, and how succeptible they were to diseases. If your race depended on it, wouldn't you eliminate drift?

    As for stop firing, that is simple. The weapons can overheat. It is said in the books that the Hand's weapons were about to melt prior to the broadside since they were firing so much. They need a cooldown time to avoid destroying the wepon, just like phasers. if your about to go into a broadside, you want to cooldown your weapons as much as possible so that you can deal as much damage as possible.

  7. #6607
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    1,265
    Quote Originally Posted by halo07guy View Post
    Maybe in ST, but the Kaminoans were the most skilled cloners in the Galaxy. Their entire race depended on it for survival. They created colnes that were exact replicas of the original, down to the accent and the cells, and how succeptible they were to diseases. If your race depended on it, wouldn't you eliminate drift?

    As for stop firing, that is simple. The weapons can overheat. It is said in the books that the Hand's weapons were about to melt prior to the broadside since they were firing so much. They need a cooldown time to avoid destroying the wepon, just like phasers. if your about to go into a broadside, you want to cooldown your weapons as much as possible so that you can deal as much damage as possible.
    1: Replication Drift is enevitable, errors always occur no matter what

    2: I'm not talking about the Invisible Hand! I'm talking about the Cruiser that tried disabling it.

  8. #6608
    Registered Senior Member
    Posts
    400
    Well, there would occasionally be errors, but they were so few and far between that they were essientially non-existant. Again, The cooldown time also applys tothe cruiser. And they were so close, both sides don't fire because of the risk of hitting friendlies. As for it not firing prior in that scene, consider this. Would you rather have only have your guns avaible in a broadside becuase you overheated them or was busy reloading, or rather all your guns? Republic stratigists were extreamly smart, and knew when to give the order to stop in preperation for something.

  9. #6609
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Enterprise-B View Post
    I have also realized that an over a million clone army is not possible because of replication drift.
    Actually, cloning each copy from original source material would work.
    As in, use new DNA from Jango Fett to clone each subsequent copy.

  10. #6610
    Quote Originally Posted by FoolFromHell View Post
    Other than Scott, does ANYONE object to the power of the 8472 bioship?
    Obviously not.

    You're letting Scott get to you. And you're putting to much weight on his arguements. It's not necessary.

    Scott defeats himself.

    He talks out of both ends of his mouth. In one post he says that the Alderaan planetary shield stopped the Death Star's Beam for a fraction of second.

    In the next he's saying that 8472 to beam would be stopped by the same planetary shield. The Bio beams was 20 times LESS effective....

    In other words it took about 20 seconds to destroy the planet of the instant destuction of the Death Star. That's not a considerable measure.

    To imply that the Planetary shield of Alderaan was so ineffective in one arguement and then position another arguement that the 8472 could not do the same task...is blatant dull thinking.

    He's just trying to fustrated you.

  11. #6611
    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    Obviously not.

    You're letting Scott get to you. And you're putting to much weight on his arguements. It's not necessary.

    Scott defeats himself.

    He talks out of both ends of his mouth. In one post he says that the Alderaan planetary shield stopped the Death Star's Beam for a fraction of second.

    In the next he's saying that 8472 to beam would be stopped by the same planetary shield. The Bio beams was 20 times LESS effective....

    In other words it took about 20 seconds to destroy the planet of the instant destuction of the Death Star. That's not a considerable measure.

    To imply that the Planetary shield of Alderaan was so ineffective in one arguement and then position another arguement that the 8472 could not do the same task...is blatant dull thinking.

    He's just trying to fustrated you.
    I guess. Just gonna ignore you from now on.
    The time really doesnt matter. It takes HELL OF A LOT OF FORCE to destroy a planet. The Death Star takes a minimum of ~10 months to make. Species 8472 have thousands of bioships, with each 8 capable of destroying a planet. 20 seconds doesnt mean much. If an ISD is bearing on you, fly to the other side of the planet. The ISD cant enter hyperspace near the planet. The ISD cant fly sublight fast enough to get to the other side...
    Since the rules of this debate say that the Empire invades the ST universe, they also invade fluidic space... causing 8472 to decide to attack the Galaxy Far Far Away.

    I ahve 2 questions to your Wars dudes.
    #1. How do you defend againsy a few dozen borg cubes for EVERY SINGLE Wars planet? Because if even one gets through, permanent borgification of the planet and new cubes emanating from that planet.
    #2. How do you defend against Species 8472 without Borg Nanoprobes?
    Last edited by FoolFromHell; 08-05-07 at 08:19 PM.

  12. #6612
    Minister of Technology
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    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Enterprise-B View Post
    1: Yes they did, I've seen a picture.
    Unless you got video proof that confirms that, you are just blowing smoke.

    2: You forget that Feds are good problem solvers, if they don't do some thing it's usaually for a good reason. And what about the lights?
    You forget that the show Follows the federation, and they have shown a complete lack of common sense and tactical/strategic thing on a general level. Only a few commander have shown any intelligent tactical ability.

    Examples:

    Nemesis: Picard and Data just commandeered a Reman fighter. Theyhave at their figertips the ability to tear the Reman ship a new from inside the shielding and armor. What do they do? They run away instead of destroying the super weapon.

    Nemesis: Reman boarders have just beamed aboard. They are a subterranian race that have much difficultly with reasonably bright light. What humans consider daylight is to the point of painful. Not only do Riker and Worf not think of turning up the lights, but for some reason Red Alert lowers the light level around the ship to a level comfortable for Remans.

    Nemesis: Transporters only got enough juice to beam one thing over. What does our intrepid crew decided to send, Captain Picard. They don't even think of beaming over Antimatter, a quantum torpedo, or anything like that.

    Nemesis: Data decides he hads to help the captain, but transporters are out. Now Shuttle and Runabout transporters are a seperate system entirely and are certainly intact. What does our super intelligent android do? He leaps through space and sacrifices himself .

    These are just the some of latest of examples of Federation officer blunders. It would be okay if they rookies, but these are the Federations best.

  13. #6613
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by USS Enterprise-B View Post
    Voyager destroys the Equinox port warp nacelle, and the ship falls out of warp, leaking plasma. Voyager continues to pursue, still firing its weapons. The EMH transmits the shield frequency to Burke. Voyager moves in, preparing to engage a tractor beam, while Burke manages to fire torpedoes through the shields. Despite Tuvok rotating the shield frequency every ten seconds, Voyager suffers extensive damage, losing many weapons arrays and the impulse drive. Ransom suddenly hails the ship and offers to surrender, saying he can transport the Equinox crew to Voyager, and Janeway agrees. She tells her crew, who are amazed at their captain's sudden change in attitude, that Ransom is a Starfleet captain, even if he forgot that for a while. Memory Alpha

    Right here scott, destroyed the port warp nacelle.

    Okay, so which weapon was used? Phasers? No. We know form all other parts of canon that phaser don't fire forward at warp. Torpedos do and since Voyager is arguably a faster ship the photon torpedoes would be faster as well. There is also the point that ST shields are almost never up when travelling at warp, witness Nemesis.

  14. #6614
    Minister of Technology
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    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by FoolFromHell View Post
    I understand, but 8472 has NO Enemies in fluidic space which allows them to manufacture more unhindered, and thousands upon thousands of ships. If Each 8 ships can destroy a PLANET thats inhabited by BORG, which usually makes it very tough nut to crack... Its reasonable to assume that each ship has enough POWER to blow up a planet with 1/8 the mass of a habitable planet (Earth Sized)
    Ah, so ignoring canon again aren't you.

    Borg planets are like Borg ships, meaning: The first time a weapon is fired on it, the Borg are LESS THAN DEFENSELESS. A borg planet would be horribly vulnerable by any standards. Trusting the awesome shielding of their adaptability, and the fact that they had never met a race capable of blowing a planet, they have an atmosphere that is practically explosive. The surface would be lousy with Antimatter containment and antimatter powerplanet, as well as muntions.

    That however is the least of it, the type of fire you are describing is seven normal bioships and a center, larger and much different vessel. Since we are not told how much energy that the bioships lend the larger ship we CANNOT say that each of the ships can destroy 1/8th of a planet. There are many other explanations that fit the visuals. Including the center ship being a special capacitor ship that houses the energy needed to destroy a planet, and that it needs the seven other ships to bascially light the fuse. Which given what we see is the most logical explanation. Since we know Voyager is vulnerable to far weaker weapons.

  15. #6615
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by USS Enterprise-B View Post
    1: Replication Drift is enevitable, errors always occur no matter what
    Dude, I don't think you get it. this is a race that had DNA replication and modification down to a simple science. They even could modify the mentality of the clone. It would be child's play to detect a abnormality and eleiminated it before the end of gestation.

    2: I'm not talking about the Invisible Hand! I'm talking about the Cruiser that tried disabling it.
    That's easy, they heard that the Supreme Chancellor was still on board. They did the damage they needed to and stopped firing. Obviously you don't understand military discipline and planning.

  16. #6616
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoolFromHell View Post
    I guess. Just gonna ignore you from now on.
    The time really doesnt matter. It takes HELL OF A LOT OF FORCE to destroy a planet. The Death Star takes a minimum of ~10 months to make. Species 8472 have thousands of bioships, with each 8 capable of destroying a planet. 20 seconds doesnt mean much. If an ISD is bearing on you, fly to the other side of the planet. The ISD cant enter hyperspace near the planet. The ISD cant fly sublight fast enough to get to the other side...
    Since the rules of this debate say that the Empire invades the ST universe, they also invade fluidic space... causing 8472 to decide to attack the Galaxy Far Far Away.

    Small problem, if SW is coming for a planet they are coming to invade. Are you really gonna send your ship to the other side of the planet and leave it defensless when the fleet drops out of hyperspace. (Oh and it would be less than 2 seconds to reach Earth from Hyperspace break out.)

    Next Fluidic Space is a Seperate Universe only the Borg know how to get there and it is arguable that they might not remember. But Earth and Coruscant are in the same universe thankfully.

    #1. How do you defend againsy a few dozen borg cubes for EVERY SINGLE Wars planet? Because if even one gets through, permanent borgification of the planet and new cubes emanating from that planet.
    Actually since Borg would have to use regular Warp to approach any SW planet as there are no conduits there, there will be many, many SW ships ready to blow apart each cube. Especially since 1 ISD emits 240 times power (In turboalsers only) than a Galaxy class cruiser produces.

    #2. How do you defend against Species 8472 without Borg Nanoprobes?
    Superior firepower, and the fact that if SW doesn't invade Species 8472 will leave them alone. Hell Species 8472 is more likely to help the Empire becuase the Empire could destroy the Borg with ease and thus Species 8472 would not have to worry about invasion.

  17. #6617
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Okay, so which weapon was used? Phasers? No. We know form all other parts of canon that phaser don't fire forward at warp. Torpedos do and since Voyager is arguably a faster ship the photon torpedoes would be faster as well. There is also the point that ST shields are almost never up when travelling at warp, witness Nemesis.
    Are you stupid? The Equinox was damaged. Its shields were most likely down.
    Shields are up only when entering battle situations...

  18. #6618
    Quote Originally Posted by FoolFromHell View Post
    I guess. Just gonna ignore you from now on.
    The time really doesnt matter. It takes HELL OF A LOT OF FORCE to destroy a planet. The Death Star takes a minimum of ~10 months to make. Species 8472 have thousands of bioships, with each 8 capable of destroying a planet. 20 seconds doesnt mean much. If an ISD is bearing on you, fly to the other side of the planet. The ISD cant enter hyperspace near the planet. The ISD cant fly sublight fast enough to get to the other side...
    Since the rules of this debate say that the Empire invades the ST universe, they also invade fluidic space... causing 8472 to decide to attack the Galaxy Far Far Away.

    Exactly...their ships are grown ...likely in days or weeks. You won't catch me quibbling over sematics when 8 bio ships approach. I garuante you, though, Scott will...The obvious answer will skip by him and land right next to him...

    Scott will take five minutes to ascertain that a round green metal object was and in the last few instances...He'll realize during the detonation that is was a frag grenade.

    Dull Thinking...

  19. #6619
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Ah, so ignoring canon again aren't you.

    Borg planets are like Borg ships, meaning: The first time a weapon is fired on it, the Borg are LESS THAN DEFENSELESS. A borg planet would be horribly vulnerable by any standards. Trusting the awesome shielding of their adaptability, and the fact that they had never met a race capable of blowing a planet, they have an atmosphere that is practically explosive. The surface would be lousy with Antimatter containment and antimatter powerplanet, as well as muntions.
    For instance. I have no immediate problem with this...

    That however is the least of it, the type of fire you are describing is seven normal bioships and a center, larger and much different vessel. Since we are not told how much energy that the bioships lend the larger ship we CANNOT say that each of the ships can destroy 1/8th of a planet. There are many other explanations that fit the visuals. Including the center ship being a special capacitor ship that houses the energy needed to destroy a planet, and that it needs the seven other ships to bascially light the fuse. Which given what we see is the most logical explanation. Since we know Voyager is vulnerable to far weaker weapons.
    Here's that dull thinking yet again.

    A capcitor...seven ships to light the fuse...That's just ludacris. That just makes not sense. Why not put those capcitors on all the ships.

    The center ship is an amplifier. Pure and simple. The seven ships channel and immese amount power into the one and much like a laser concetrates the energy.

    But the obvious answer aludes him. He doesn't not that the Borg Cubes suffered massive damage just by one strike. In some scenes all that's need is four direct hits.

    Many people in error believe that the bio energy they use will work on no one else but the borg. Fallacy, utterly.

    The producers and writers made sure all Voyager ever sustained was a grazing blow. While the Borgs shields need to adapt they were never effect against this unknown type of energy.

    Voyagers shields however were geared to stop as much energy as possible. The disadvantage was the borg thinking...not the borg technology. That was made evident that the Borg could not modify there own probes to deal with the enemy. Similar they could not adapt there defenses.

  20. #6620
    Blanked out.
    Ignoring Scott.

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