Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Um, I don't think the flash is him making stuff up. If its fanboy wank, then how come me and TW see it? Granted, its hard to catch, but its there. And i seriously doubt something small would make a flash much bigger then it.

If you see it, Halo, then I will accept it as being true. But, answer me this- why is it that in Star Wars they attempt to use such a small area of the shield grid to stop the impact? It seems very inefficient and would be more effective to use a larger part of the shield grid to disperse and dispell the incoming fire.

[Hellblade8]

ICS describes the actual bolts as being invisible, only a little bit in fron t of what we see. What we see is the waste energy of the bolt.

I've noticed no one has focused on economy that much. All the firepower in the world counts for nothing if you don't have an economy to support it. I would compare ST to Nazi Germany when it comes to firepower and economy. SW would be more like America during WW2. It was once estimated that it took five Shermans to take out 1 Tiger tank. Now replace the Shermans with ISDs and the Tiger with a Galaxy-Class. An SSD would be comparable to America's land based air power during WW2 and a Sovereign to a King Tiger. Do you see my point? UFP ships might be more powerful, but they are severly outnumbered, and even I know that a Sovereign can only focus on so many targets.

Of course the UFP loses a war to the empire, its just too big. I'm not argueing that, what I am is the strange notion that TW has about SW ships being several orders stronger than ST ships.

And Blade, I think you mistook me for TW. Half the stuff in your reply about me being wrong came from TW.

Doh!

Sorry about that.

Maryland, huh? Strange, you looked like a kid from my school.

Small world.

[Kittamaru]

Errr, its not as easy as that. You see, scientists are basicly having to make sense of what Lucas imagined in a way that is actually possible. Same with ST. The transporter would in fact have to be so complex and powerful that every computer on the planet is made to look like a stick next to it. And yet this is one of the least advanced computers on UFP ships, and was around in the time of Enterprise. In fact, in order to warp space to achieve light speed (Warp 1), it would take more power than what scientists have speculated our entire galaxy can generate (with current method of power generation of course). And that's just warp one. Now imagine the power needed for Wapr 9.

Actually, the only thing that makes a transporter difficult is the Heisenburg Uncertanty Principal. Once we overcome that, parallel processing would make it very easy to compress the human body down to it's basic parts. you don't need everything- you just need the physiological and electromagnetic signatures of the brain and nervous system at a specific point as well as the chemical state of the body. THen, you destroy said body. Now, you make a carbon copy somewhere else. It's basic, but it should, according to physics, work. As for warp... well, that's a far more complicated problem, one I'm not ready to answer yet.



Perhaps to make them more scary?




You see...now here is where you go off stream. You say that SW lasers aren't real lasers because real lasers can't be seen in space and because they aren't faster than light...but you're also saying that the green pulses that we see in SW are not the actual weapons, but a tail to mark its destination and it can travel faster than light? Doesn't this all seem a little strange to you?

Indeed, lots of contradictions.

You want to know what? Here is how it is. TLs are laser/plasma weapons. How does it work? Who knows, would a deflector dish stop it? Possibly? Does it matter? No. Again, UFP ships are a hell lot stronger than Imperial ships.



No. SW is geared towared the everyday person. ST is more for geeks and nerds. And the evil in SW isn't all that interesting, just simple black and white that relfects nothing of reality. ST tries to go the grey route, but even they don't do that *good* of a job often, but they have their moments. If youo really want some good and evil stories, try Legend of Zelda TWP, or perhaps the Dragonlance series.

Very true, as Trek attempts to use a lot more science and Wars, while very good in a very different way, uses big explosions

whee

[halo07guy]

Is okay, Blade. there are lots of nearly identical people in the world. But for some reason, most like living in Asia.

I would think the flash is the plasma being either scattered or absorbed. I think its kind of similar to kow when a lighting bolt strikes a power line or transformer ( whatever its called), power grid temporarily absorbs the lightnings energy.

The flash is confirmed. Its had three different people see it. The shield actually does spread out the energy. At the moment the flash is brightest, you can see it cover an area much larger then the bolt. Granted, you practically have to play the film frame by frame, but it is there. If you do play it frame by frame, you kind of see the light around the point of impact expand. I would guess this is from energy in the "tail" of the bolt essentially "riding" energy below it. The whole time, the energy in contact with the shield is being scattered. Think of a wave when it nears the shore. It starts off pretty big, but grows smaller as water is pulled out from the bottom, with the top of the wave becoming closer to the surface. the bottom of the wave is the energy in contact with the shield and the top is the energy not in contact with the shield. I hope that made some sense.

The one problem with teleportation is the mind of the person. You might transfer them physically, but what about mentally?

[Hellblade8]

Actually, the only thing that makes a transporter difficult is the Heisenburg Uncertanty Principal. Once we overcome that, parallel processing would make it very easy to compress the human body down to it's basic parts. you don't need everything- you just need the physiological and electromagnetic signatures of the brain and nervous system at a specific point as well as the chemical state of the body. THen, you destroy said body. Now, you make a carbon copy somewhere else. It's basic, but it should, according to physics, work. As for warp... well, that's a far more complicated problem, one I'm not ready to answer yet.

This is true.

Although, in star trek they just turn the body into energy and then change it back later.

The warp problem, however, is still a major problem. Of course, its possible they might have found an alternative method to bending space not yet known to our science.

[halo07guy]

So can we kind of get a projected timeline of what the war would be like? I mean, including major battles and all. I know a conflict of this scale would last about 15 years. The only problem would be figuring out the date of the beginning of the war. I would say 2700 for ST would be a good number.
We know the Federation would be extreamly powerful in the first 6 or 7 years of the war, but would be beaten back to their galaxy by the Empires determination to fight and sheer economic output. I think the equivalent of the Battle of Midway would probably be fought at Coruscant. Now if someone could just create a timeline. I mean like number of ships involved, notable ships in combat, notable tactics, where it was fought, how long the battle was, why there was an attack,etc. Think we could do this?

[TW Scott]

No, by Trek's definition Q is a god. I have used your own "suspension of disbelief" clause. You have not.

They may use the term godlike, but that can be applied to any number of things that are not proper dieties. They never once say Q is a god. So you are stretching meaning and intention.

Because these are all non-disruptive to the Trek Universe.

All of them were potentially devastating to the ST universe especially Species 8472. Interestingly enough Species 8472 was from another universe and therefore fully under the jusrisdiction you are claiming.

Besides you would have to prove that the Empire conquering the Federation would be viewed as a bad thing by the Q,

Because this IS disruptive to the Trek universe.

And your proof.

Clearly he can see many different times, or else he would not have been able to help Picard in "All Good Things"

He revealed the whole thing was just a damn test in the end.

Matter of fact at this point I am completely fed up of you. You are becoming increasingly unpalatable as I bring more canon to bear, and you conveniently ignore the rules of the discussion when it suits you. I am convinced that your strategy TW is just that, to frustrate your opponents by attacking unnecessarily. Civility and tact are clearly beyond your scope of behaviour.

The canon you bring to bear is heavily filtered, outdated and countered by numerous other canon references. It's hard to be civil when the opposition (Kittamaru, Saquist, and you as well Enterprise-D among others) use guerilla
warfare and show complete direspect to anything resembling canon.

[halo07guy]

Why do I suddenly feel like playing a ST mod for Battlefield 1942?

[TW Scott]

So can we kind of get a projected timeline of what the war would be like? I mean, including major battles and all. I know a conflict of this scale would last about 15 years. The only problem would be figuring out the date of the beginning of the war. I would say 2700 for ST would be a good number.

Well assuming 2700 AD for ST then SW would be over six billion years after A New Hope. While the Federation would have decades to advance, SW would have billions of years. Which is a problem.

Now if we take 3BBY technology wise for SW and 26th century for ST then life gets interesting. If the Federation started the war, a possibility, with a sneak attack on Sullust, in an attempt to free world from the Empire. The war would last as long as it took to capture a single Federation vessel and decode the database. ST would be launching Attack after attacks on worlds but would not have the success they desire. It would be hit and run tactics that do little more than bloody the nose of the Empire.

The moment the database is decoded the Death Star II would be sent, failing that the Eclipse class or a flotilla of ISD's. Earth would be destroyed as an object lesson, BDZ'd at the very least or blown apart by the Death Star. After that the Federation would last only a few weeks as anything resembling a power. A year later the last colony would be wiped out.

[Kittamaru]

Is okay, Blade. there are lots of nearly identical people in the world. But for some reason, most like living in Asia.

I would think the flash is the plasma being either scattered or absorbed. I think its kind of similar to kow when a lighting bolt strikes a power line or transformer ( whatever its called), power grid temporarily absorbs the lightnings energy.

The flash is confirmed. Its had three different people see it. The shield actually does spread out the energy. At the moment the flash is brightest, you can see it cover an area much larger then the bolt. Granted, you practically have to play the film frame by frame, but it is there. If you do play it frame by frame, you kind of see the light around the point of impact expand. I would guess this is from energy in the "tail" of the bolt essentially "riding" energy below it. The whole time, the energy in contact with the shield is being scattered. Think of a wave when it nears the shore. It starts off pretty big, but grows smaller as water is pulled out from the bottom, with the top of the wave becoming closer to the surface. the bottom of the wave is the energy in contact with the shield and the top is the energy not in contact with the shield. I hope that made some sense.

The one problem with teleportation is the mind of the person. You might transfer them physically, but what about mentally?

Their mental state is covered by transfering the electro-chemical state of the mind.

[Kittamaru]

They may use the term godlike, but that can be applied to any number of things that are not proper dieties. They never once say Q is a god. So you are stretching meaning and intention.

They don't use the term Godlike... they use the term God.

All of them were potentially devastating to the ST universe especially Species 8472. Interestingly enough Species 8472 was from another universe and therefore fully under the jusrisdiction you are claiming.

No, 8472 was from Fluidic Space and, yet again, the Federation/Borg alliance was more than enough to handle it.

Besides you would have to prove that the Empire conquering the Federation would be viewed as a bad thing by the Q,

It would be a bad thing as the Empire is damn near a Hitler-style anarchist dictatorship. They have performed mass genocide in the past, what's to stop them doing it again.


And your proof.

Proof? Okay, I'll provide it- Humanity as Star Trek knows it would END because the Empire would view them as a threat and thus eliminate them when they refuse to be subjugated.

He revealed the whole thing was just a damn test in the end.

Indeed, it was a test. Doesn't make it ANY less real though.


The canon you bring to bear is heavily filtered, analyzed, and carefully considered using numerous other canon references. It's hard to be civil when the opposition (Kittamaru, Saquist, and you as well Enterprise-D among others) use guerilla warfare and show complete respect to anything resembling canon that I am unable to defeat.

I took the liberty of correcting your terrible grammar there scott. The way you put it, it sounded like we were the ones not following canon. You were borderline slander there mate.

mahah

[Kittamaru]

Well assuming 2700 AD for ST then SW would be over six billion years after A New Hope to fall into extinction. While the Federation would have decades to advance, SW would have billions of years. Which is a problem.

Now if we take 3BBY technology wise for SW and 26th century for ST then life gets interesting. If the Federation started the war, a possibility, with a sneak attack on Sullust, in an attempt to free world from the Empire. The war would last as long as it took to catpture a single Federation vessel and decond the database. ST would be launching Attack after attacks on worlds but would not have the success they desire. It would be hit and run tactics that do little more than bloody the nose of the Empire.

yet such "hit and run" tactics decimated the empire when the Rebels did them...

The moment the database is decoded the Death Star II would be sent, failing that the Eclipse class or a flotilla of ISD's. Earth would be destroyed as an object lesson, BDZ'd at the very least or blown apart by the Death Star. After that the Federation would last only a few weeks as anything resembling a power. A year later the last colony would be wiped out.

Considering the Empire wouldn't know what to do with an isolinear chip, much less how to break the quantum-encoded passwords on the Federation ships, this is a non issue.

Scott, you do realize that Federation starships use encryption methods that make modern day 256 and even 512 bit encryption look roughly like writing your data on a sidewalk in chalk, right? Considering the best "encryption" we have seen in SW was, well, not really existent (at least according to the movies- it was a matter of manipulating a database, not cracking a passcode) then we can assume a lack of advanced encryption techniques.

Also, do remember, Stars have a decidedly FINITE lifespan. Coruscant wouldn't even EXIST by the 26th century in the federaton timeline. At best you could dedicate resources to artificially extending the stars life, but as the majority of the Wars universe seems to have trouble co-operating, it'd be a longshot at best.

[Kittamaru]

So can we kind of get a projected timeline of what the war would be like? I mean, including major battles and all. I know a conflict of this scale would last about 15 years. The only problem would be figuring out the date of the beginning of the war. I would say 2700 for ST would be a good number.
We know the Federation would be extreamly powerful in the first 6 or 7 years of the war, but would be beaten back to their galaxy by the Empires determination to fight and sheer economic output. I think the equivalent of the Battle of Midway would probably be fought at Coruscant. Now if someone could just create a timeline. I mean like number of ships involved, notable ships in combat, notable tactics, where it was fought, how long the battle was, why there was an attack,etc. Think we could do this?

Not really... remember, it's ST vs SW. So you have the United Federation of Planets, the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Hydran Star Empire, the Lyran Star League, the Mirak Union, the Maquis, the Gorn, the Vulcans, and a host of other races. Assuming a suspension of disbelief, we can add the Borg, 8472, the Kremin, the Cardassians, the Dominion... and a host of other smaller races. It would be, literally, an intergalactic bloodbath. In the end, given 8472's ability to destroy planets with only 8 ships that rivals the ability of the Death Star, the mass production abilities of a large scale galactic alliance, the innovative abilities of the Federation (human), the Vulcans and Romulans, two races which have shown incredible intellectual ability, and the Borg, who are capable of adapting to almost anything. You also have the micro-war that would ensue. The Borg nanites, the Cardassian micro-robotics (the things that latch onto and eat away at your hull). Then there is the phased polaron beam, which would most likely puncture your shields with ease, Ablative armor, and TransPhasic Torpedos, technology that Voyager brought back with it and will undoubtedly be added onto the fleets.

I think it is safe to say it would be like the Roman Phalanx all over again- the Federate Coalition (Star Trek) would slowly march foward, suffering losses but learning from them how to better protect themselves. We can safely say the Federation would NEVER initiate the first blows, but the Klingons or Romulans might.

[halo07guy]

I don't know about Romulans or other warlike groups. You would possibly have a huge universe wide war as Ferengi try to exploit business oppritunitys in SW, Romulans, Cardassians, and Kilingons start to carve up SW territory, resulting in huge territorial disputes between the groups. The Borg assimilate anyone they come across, becoming a kind of wild card. The Vulcans would likely try to gain access to SW's history and protect potentially educational sites from both sides. I mean, we are talking about a race of intellectuals and philosphers(sp). 8472 could possibly make contact with the Yuuzhan Vong, which would likely result in a wierd kind alliance between the two. The Federation would likely run across some Rebellion forces, who would either try to get them as an ally or would inform them about what the goverment used to belik, possibly getting a NAP( Non-Aggression Pact) or beginning technology trades ( I think ST would be very interested in bacta. I mean, you can't always be beamed to a medical bay.) .

I'm pretty sure that it would end in a NAP or a kind of unsteady peace (Think Cold War.) .

[Kittamaru]

The Romulans, Klingons, Federation, Vulcans, and a few other races have a conjoined alliance now, so even without dropping reality, they wouldn't make a move alone, nor fight over territory.

HOWEVER, if we assume the Empire and Rebel Alliance and the 'Vong are fighting together (in other words, all of Star Wars) then we will assume the entirety of Star Trek is fighting together.

If we go a realistic fight, the Federation would establish contact with the Rebel Alliance, garnering information in exchange for Federation technology, resulting in an unsteady, but growing alliance. Thus the Romulans, Klingons, Vulcans, and a few others would also be allied. The Empire would declare said alliance outlawed and attempt to destroy it, resulting in them getting their ass kicked five ways to sunday by a combined assault. Plasma, Proton, Quantum, and Photon torpedos would rip thru their shields as pinpoint phaser, disruptor, pulse disruptor, pulse phaser, and blaster fire disable critical ship systems. Finally, the Imperial Fleet would stare in awe as Alliance and Federate boarding parties beam aboard and secure the bridges of every capital ship before the onboard security teams can respond.

The Vong and 8472 would probably kill each other off and the Borg... to be frank, probably wouldn't be involved as they are busy recovering from the whooping Voyager laid on them.

I must say, the Rebels will probably trade Bacta technology for, say, replicator technology. Hyperspace drive for Warp drive. Other such trades. I can only drool over the prospect of an X-Wing with quad pulse phasers and a dual set of Micro Quantum Torpedo launchers, powered by a micro-warp core able to do hyperwarp drive

[Challenger78]

That last sentence had me drooling already....... Micro warp or microsingularity ?

[halo07guy]

Ah, well. AS long as the bad guys get the asses kicked. I wonder how the borg would fare against said Alliance? ( Imagines hundereds of Borg ships exploding like popcorn.)

[Kittamaru]

Well, thing is, the borg aren't evil. They are simply misguided. They are striving to bring Unity to the universe, a noble enough goal. They just don't understand that some people LIKE being an individual XD

And I think HyperWarp Challenger. Has a nice, ring to it. That and it's from Galactic Civs

[halo07guy]

Their evil from everyone's but themselves point of view. Kinda like the Empire.

[halo07guy]

I wonder what would happen if an 8472 and a Vong got funky in bed......