View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #6141
    That which cannot be known Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Actually, the Klingons and the Romulans and the Federation are ALLIES anyway now (post Nemesis). For the sake of the argument, we are assuming either both sides ALL parties fight together OR they act as they normally do, which would degrade into Borg vs Empire+Cardassians+Dominion vs Rebels + Federation + Romulans + Vulcans + Klingons + Hydrans + Lyrans + Mirak + Gorn + a host of other races.

    And there is no on screen proof of replicator technology- if you want to start dragging assumptions into this fight be my guest but beware- there is a LOT of trek-tech that is mentioned in series but never gone into detail or shown (eg, the fact that Starbase 001 SUPPOSEDLY has over four DOZEN pulse phaser arrays along with numerous quantum and photon torpedo batteries AND regenerative/auto-modulating shields. That alone would blow the DS2 out of space as soon as it dropped out of HyperSpace beside Earth, not to mention the fighters and combat shuttlecraft and starships and planetary defense platforms that are there)

  2. #6142
    That which cannot be known Kittamaru's Avatar
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    7,970
    Oh, and HaloGuy, remember- sure, maybe 8 ISD's could turn a planet Molten. It only takes ONE DEFIANT class ship to do the same. Imagine a fleet of 5 sovereign class starships and a dozen cruiser size ships then with a dozen defiant escorts. Youch.

  3. #6143
    Minister of Technology
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    4,149
    Just becuase you have no clue what an actual AI is, does not give you a pass in this argument. While i agree that a cleaning drone is not sentient, it is an AI, just like the robots we build today, like the one that learned to climb stairs. You are confusing Self aware with AI.

    Scott, I am afraid to say you are the confused one. AI = Artificial Intelligence. WE DO NOT HAVE ANY TRUE AI TODAY. The closest we have is a single computer simulation that gives the APPEARANCE of emotion. It does NOT actually have any.
    I am afraid you are falling into media sterotype and not actual science. Artificial intelligence is not the same as artificial sentience. Though arguable you could not have the second withou the first. An AI is simply a learning computer that performs all the non-emotional mental tasks we do. EG Analyze, Learn, Adjust, Adapt.

    Incorrect. He outright lied to Luke about the hologram. C-3PO actually admonishes him to trust Luke.
    I can program a PC to lie to someone it hasn't met before based on optical and acoustic input, then have it tell the truth based on a known voice prompt via voice recognition software... big fucking deal.
    Incorrect, you could program a PC to give incorrect information, but you could not program a computer to lie. It could not claim something that you did not tell it to do.

    He has been programmed to avoid combat, yes, but not his owners. Why would a droid hide when a fellow droid ran away? As for his programming there are times he moves beyond it. In A New Hope, he is actually angry at R2-D2 and later blames him for his predicament and hopes he fairs no better. If he is not self aware why was he speaking to himself.
    Because a logic process as such would follow:
    Allied Droid Running Scared -> Danger/Enemy nearby -> Initiate self preservation protocols -> analyze environment -> determine concealmen the best course of action. Also, the interaction with R2D2 - we have "autonamarons" today that can do the same... you ever own two furbies? Little fuckers would talk all night till one of em pissed the other off! You are saying C3P0 = Furby?
    I refer you to the scene later, when C-3PO was talking to him damn self, not to anybody at all.

    Also the scene where R2-D2 was running away he was obviously not scared as C-3PO had tried to tell him not to leave. C-3PO then hid even though R2-D2 alone was responsible for running away.

    Actually the head area on the Battledroid is so small that it is probably just a sensor cluster and dedicated targeting SPU and partial speach center. The main brain would be much safer in the main body. Conversely the C-3PO droid probably has to use a processor in the head area that handles the cognitive thinking and a processor in the body for movement.
    mhm, Prove it scott. It's your argument, PROVE that this is what they did. By this logic, it would be safest to have auxiliary shielding around the bridge of a starship, yet SSD's do not have it...
    Actually it is just a supposition that supports what we see. The C-3PO head could not fully control the battle droid body and the Battle droid head could not completely control the the Protocal droid body. To prove it I would have to examine both droids, which is impossible

    As for your shielding comment, how is that you know that isn't the auxilliary shielding that went? Main shielding, which would cover the whole ship had been pounded down by weapons fire already, then the bridge shields dropped later.


    Yes, he does, and this was programmed by his designer. So obviously any emotions felt are a direct result of programming. You do not hear of any emotion chip in SW, do you?
    Oh really? You DO realize that, at first, Data did NOT feel emotions. Hell, he could not even WHISTLE. Over the course of YEARS his programming, which ONLY gave him the base resources to survive, evolved as he strived to better himself. He developed emotions WAY before he go the Chip, though they were not 100% human equivalent emotions. He also had Sex with a HUMAN BEING, something that R2D2 and C3P0 can NEVER claim.
    Actually Dta has expressed only the emotions of introspection and curiousity, which aren't even emotions but rather cognitive abilities. But hell even the sex he had was partially becuase he was built and programmed for it. The other part being a drunk Tasha.

    So he disobeyed and order. he was programmed to adapt and in this the greater orders of catch the Romulans foreshadowed any subsequent orders. yes he yelled at an exec, which he would have learned in basic psychology is a effective, if abusive way to make the other party back off. However non of that relied on emotion and all focused on his programming to learn, adapt and succeed. He was never programmed to obey orders.
    Actually, based on the inflection in his voice, it is VERY easy to say he was frustrated and annoyed with the person he was yelling at. He WAS programmed to obey orders, he just slowly has learned that sometimes it is best to think for himself.
    No, as shown before it only shows he is great at mimicking emotions. Data had never before then had emotions. In fact his first bout with Anger was him killing a renegade Borg drone. And he was not programmed to Obey orders. He had certain protocols built into him, for the times Noonian wanted to work more on him. But he was never programmed to follow the orders of starfleet.

    Actually he arrested her as she passed therough DS9 space. He did not have the authority to track her down. And you are right it was as soon as he had the evidence. But my logic was not that every FBI agent would be arrest as co-conspirators in every case they investigate. More like every customs official that has a relationship with the head of a shipping company should be investigated if their bed partner is smuggling drugs.
    Okay, now you lost me... wtf are you going on about?
    Of course I lost you, I related something in Star trek to real life, and successfully at that. Try rereading it and sounding out the words you don't know.

    I told you my beef was with TNG, TOS the Federation was still a democracy. In TNG it has turned into a bigbrother police state.

    Scott, in TNG the StarFleet is an imperial mandated democracy. Democracy is a horrible way to govern a large territory. Why? because people will NEVER GET ALONG. Look at my own country, the USA, for an example of this. Too many different ideas about the simplest things and NOBODY is willing to compromise and, as a result, NOTHING gets done. THAT WOULD NOT FUCKING CUT IT IN A MILITARY ORGANIZATION! The Federation Council = Senate/House of Reps. The PEOPLE have a say in their government. THE GOVERNMEN WORKS TO HELP THE PEOPLE. That is a democracy according to most definitions.
    Not once have they spoken of elected officials. And I am sorry but if the elected body is that small then they cannot be accurately representing their constituents. Which is represented best by the Maquis situation.

    Sarek is too royalty, or did you not get that? Of course not you'd have to actually pay attention. He isn't a direct heir, hell he might not even be in the top fifty but he is a Royal. And yes Royals can be Ambassadors. As to Luwxana, what would you call the ship at the personal desposal to a royal?

    As for Sarek, do remember- he is Vulcan. Eg, tight grip on emotions. Royalty is an emotional trait. He IS of high stature and he earned it! Thus, he was rewarded with a good ship and crew... but HOW DO YOU THINK HE EARNED IT? As for Luwaxana, she's insane anyway *shrugs* but, if you do recall, there are MANY ships outside of StarFleet that people use. Most of them are smaller one or two person craft which makes SENSE as you don't need a large crew to pilot them.


    First Royalty is a genetic trait, not emotional at all. Second we have not seen tons of independant ships and we have seen none under direct Federation oversight. They are always associated with some planet or some other governmental oversight. As of TNG and beyond.

    But like I explained this is probably do to the heavily nationalized industry base.

    Does the Queen or England own her Yachts, no the British government does. however it is not absurd. Everytime you see an individual with a ship, in TNG, they are either a non Federation Alien. Or a human that operates their ship mostly outside the Federation.
    Actually, she owns more than a mere Yacht... but if you want to get TECHNICAL, you do not even own the soil you live on in the USA- the government does. So you are saying the USA is not a democracy?
    Incorrect, the Monarchy owns the yacht, if she steps down she doesn't get to take it with her. Second I do own the soil on which I have my house. The US government has protectorship over it, but even they agree I own it.

    Now I am not saying that this is Law in the Federation, It just might be economics. After all all major industry in the federation is nationalized as of TNG. The only Corporations you hear of are under Ferengi or other nations rules.
    Uh, no. There are many different corporations in ST, it's just they do other things. Who needs large manufacturing plants when you have Replicators after all... Hell, take Picards VINEYARD for example!
    Picards Vineyard is on a private plot and you notice that I had mentioned that you do not see a Federation business owned by civillians other than a Restuarant, Bar or Farm. Also obviously large manufactoring bases are still needed, not everything can be replicated.


    They might be federation citizen, but they do have pull and use of the limited defense fleets each planet is allowed. Now like I said above it might be entirely economical. Still any nation that every major industry is nationalized is...well at least not a free Economy.
    Picards Vineyard comes to mind yet again... among the many resturaunts and bars on Earth... I do believe those people do NOT work there simply out of pleasure for doing so...
    Of course not, but my original argument had stated that besides Bars and Restuarant and farms, there appears to be no independant industry or commerce. I assume perhaps a few other service type establishments exist, but not once do you hear of a Factory in federation territory

    Wiki is unrelieable to say the least. And who says he had the money to buy a ship. there are things in this world a Billionaire has the money to buy, but can't just becuase the industry is controlled from above.
    Oh really? Bill Gates comes to mind- he has a house hat is 100% computerized. There are COMMERCIAL space-flights that will be available in the next 5 years. There are things you can buy in this world you would not BELIEVE. Name me something you CANNOT buy with a lot of money and I will either give you a damned good reason why or prove you wrong.
    Okay go buy a Aircraft carrier, Nuclear Submarine, F-14, or M1A1. All of them stripped of weaponry. And you don't get to supply good reason. There is no good reason a person with that kind of money can't by a stripped out version of any of those.

    They were starfleet affliliates. Are you saying that you would not get a jury in Rhode Island if it was a state trial and not a Federal Trial.

    If it is a FEDERAL trial, you would be tried by a Federal court... duh.
    You missed the point of my question, DUH. Anywhere in any court in this land a civillian gets a jury. And in cases where military personell violate civillian law they get a jury as well. DUH.


    A Court martial or Judiciary hearing should only be used when there is a crime against the military. That is pretty much the way it goes in a democracy. Data had to have been declared a sentient being just to attend Starfleet Academy. He was also not a Federation scientific experiment. Merely the experiment of a citizen who did not use federation funds to create Data. Starfleet made no initial outlay to purchase Data. And their studies of him, were similiar to the studies of any sentient race.

    However, Data was FORCED to prove in a Court martial that he was a Sentient being. Something that the past had already documented in some detail. All becuase some scientist wanted to take him apart.


    And the scientist made a decent case, thus was listened to. Data was given the right to defend himself. And War Crimes are often against civilians, yet they result in both court martials AND non-military hearings...
    My point is in a Democracy, you wouldn't have had to defend yourself. Even you would be largely immune to some doctor declaring you nonsentient so he could disect you. Yet in the Federation we had a case that was exactly that. Now a Doctor could prove you insane and mentally incompetent, but we still shy away from vivsection.

    Of course this does not surprise me, the Federation Council was behind the events that led to the Enterprise E defending a non native population in Insurrection. The council also was behind the decision to hand over dozens of colonized Federation worlds to the Cardassians for political expediency. And then advocated for the force movement of the colonists.
    Uh, actually, if you remember correctly, the Federation Council was UNAWARE the planet was inhabited by more than a handful of sentient beings... they were TRICKED dumbass.
    Hello, they weren't tricked, there were only a handful of sentients on the planet. The Enterprise wasn't trying to tell the council they were trying to get hold of the very limited media. Which Generations proves still exists. It's hard to keep control on your Empire when your own Starfleet rats you out.

    Irregardless of that, the Planet was OBVIOUSLY the property of the colonists, not the Federation. They were not signatorys in the Federation so the Federation had NO RIGHT to do what they planned.

  4. #6144
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Oh, and HaloGuy, remember- sure, maybe 8 ISD's could turn a planet Molten. It only takes ONE DEFIANT class ship to do the same. Imagine a fleet of 5 sovereign class starships and a dozen cruiser size ships then with a dozen defiant escorts. Youch.
    Actually only Three ISDs were sent to perform a BDZ of Bothuwai, the homeworld of the Bothans and one of the most heavily defended worlds in the New Republic. With the elaborate plan to take down one of the Planetary shield generators, the Three ISD's were considered enough to destroy all traces of civilization and all resoources on Bothuwai in less time than it would take for the orbiting fleets to engage them.


    The Defiant quote was simply a statement. Not even a plan or project. Plus it referred to one world and we have not been told the size or composition of that world.

    Also if one Defiant class was all that was needed why didn't Section 31 just steal one?

    Can't just pick your evidence.

  5. #6145
    Minister of Technology
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    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Actually, the Klingons and the Romulans and the Federation are ALLIES anyway now (post Nemesis). For the sake of the argument, we are assuming either both sides ALL parties fight together OR they act as they normally do, which would degrade into Borg vs Empire+Cardassians+Dominion vs Rebels + Federation + Romulans + Vulcans + Klingons + Hydrans + Lyrans + Mirak + Gorn + a host of other races.
    Sorry, but Who's to say it wouldn't be Empire+Federation pwning everyione one. Imagine a Sovereign upgunned to using SW shields and Heavy Turbolasers and Captital class Proton Torpedoes.


    And there is no on screen proof of replicator technology- if you want to start dragging assumptions into this fight be my guest but beware- there is a LOT of trek-tech that is mentioned in series but never gone into detail or shown (eg, the fact that Starbase 001 SUPPOSEDLY has over four DOZEN pulse phaser arrays along with numerous quantum and photon torpedo batteries AND regenerative/auto-modulating shields. That alone would blow the DS2 out of space as soon as it dropped out of HyperSpace beside Earth, not to mention the fighters and combat shuttlecraft and starships and planetary defense platforms that are there)
    There is Novel support for some replicator technologies. Some of the construction droids produce buidling while tearing apart older ones. It could be a limited form of technology. Possibly conciously limited so as to support a vibrant economy.

    As for the Star base 001, it could fire everything at an ISD and the ISD would barely even notice.
    (Scene ISD bridge)
    ISD Helm. "Captain we have broken out of hyperspace on target."

    ISD Captain: "Excellent, Hail the planet. I have orders to make the Emperors offer first. Planet Earth, Emperor Palpatine would like to extend to you an olive branch. Accept over all political mastery of the Empire and we will allow you planet regional autonomy."

    ISD Tactical: "Sir, their Starbase has started firing upon us. No damage as of yet."

    (Scene Outside)
    Star base one is firing dozens of Phaser Pulses and strange formations of Quantum torpedoes as well as Heavy Phaser beams. All of them strike the ISD head on but explode harmlessly on the shields.
    (Scene ISD bridge)

    ISD Captain: Could it be some sort of celebratory Fireworks display?

  6. #6146
    Minister of Technology
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    4,149
    Interesting. Your inventions and fabrication are canon? Unless your name is Gene Roddenberry, I think not

    One could say the same to you, Mister "Oh the visuals in trek overrule what the engineering officers say even though the opposite applys to star wars just because their visuals SUCK
    Actually, I have always gone by visuals for both.

    As for your term of Wars Wank, Star Wars fan actually can get laid you realize, much unlike the majority of Trekkies. So if anyone needs wank.....
    Ahahahah. Yes, indeed, you get laid by your paid lover every night don't you scott. That's why star wars fans have their significant others dress up in princess leigh slave outfits? Sorry, but Trekkies aren't NEARLY as insane as Rabid Warsies like yourself. If you ever get laid, it's a sad day for humanity because your genetic code now passes on to infest another generation. That said, most ST and SW fans are NOT that fanatical... but the few, like yourself, ruin it for the rest of the culture.
    I'm not the fantic here, I am merely trying to educated misguided trekkies. However I will have you know I have never paid for sex. Also if you think SW fans are pathetic how come they have significant willing to dress up as Slave Liea?

    Actually to properly be a God you do need worshippers, asshole. Other wise you are just some jerk with powers.
    So you are saying that if NOBODY believed in Yaweh that the Christian God would cease to exist? Interesting...
    Actually, not what I said at all, try trereading it slowly. I understand that the complicated thought process can trhough you off.

    Second, yes he does fear Guinan. If he didn't he would simply teleport her to a star. But he doesn't, why?
    1) He had been stripped of her powers. 2) She has powers of her own. 3) Picard likes keeping Guinan around and as Q owes him a life debt the answer SHOULD be obvious. 4) Why should he? She cannot hurt him... why bother?
    1) Then why does he still act as if afraid of her and she doesn't act the least bit concerned of him
    2) If true why does she not stop him
    3) So, that should not stop Q from doing what he likes to someone who is not Picard. Also Q owed the life Dept to Data, but not until after Q Who.
    4) Obviously not true if he fears her.

    You can't get around the way he reacts to her.


    Third, creating an maintaining a forcefield with air and warmth inside is well within federation technology.
    Indeed it is, but if you notice the force fields in ST always give some sort of shimmer or distortion to let people know Hey, I'm here! Also, if there was a warm pocket of air in the vaccume of space, it would distort the starfields behind it which DOES NOT HAPPEN
    Witness First Contact, you will see at least one forcefield that does not show disruption untill it is touched.

    Finally Q has not shown the ability to alter minds at all. Hormone levels certainly. But not actual emotions
    What, dear Scott, do you think CONTROLS the hormone levels in the body? Your sphincter????
    Emotions are influence hormones and vice versa. But actually it a unique set of biofeedback controls that controls hormones.

    First it is possible to get white hot glowing metal without it being even 350 degrees F. however this is impressive act, that is not obtainable by the untrained.
    It's white hot steel and the average person gets "burned" at a little over 225 degrees F. There is no permanent damage, but it hurts. I myself take my showers at nearly 250* to help slough off dead skin cells and grime after working outside/on my truck/in my attic/ wherever. I can actually place my hand down on a stove burner and not get burned imediately. BioFeedback is an intensive training regimine, but it can be very useful.
    Hmmm, so you take showers at 250 degrees? I call bullshit now. By you can get a good burn 180, believe me there.

    Also i have talked to monks who do that. It is not steal. Still an impressive feat, but nothing compared to breathing the 2000 degree sulphuric acid air above a lava field.

    However I bet you you will find no individual on earth that can have a several minute long sword fight standing just feet above flowing lava and wearing normal clothes. Hell i bet you can find no individual on earth that could survive 1000 degree air temperature unaided by technology.
    Yes I can- the guys that go up to erupting volcanoes to take Lava Samples. Some do it with Hazard Suits, others do it without them.
    I know those guys too, and the guys that go without go on slow flows where most of it has already cooled. They also use specialized tools to get their samples. While it does get hot where they are going, nothing even remotely close to the temperatures i am referring to.

    Actually no difference as by visuals we know that the front part of the ship does enter Hyperspace first as well as exit it. We also know that misjumps do occur. Mostly resulting in minor damage or temporal displacement. Only extremely rarely does a misjump result in destruction of the ship
    now imagine having half the ship go somewhere and the two quarters on either side not going along for the ride. Fine, your ship doesn't explode, it just explosively decompresses and everyone inside dies. *shrug* oh well, it's still unable to do anything
    Actually more like imagine Half the ship trying to slip into another dimension but the fail safes on the ship kicking in and the devices that keep the ship intact during a hyperspace jump kick in. A massive use of power but a completely unharmed ship. Something just as likely as what your claiming, if not more so.

    Still it does not matter you have to prove that a sublight ship would be destroyed by a subspace rip, something we have not seen.
    See my previous responses in the last post
    Actually You have yet to prove the Rip will do anything to something without a Warp drive. No proof. When a rip destroys a non warp vessel you might have something.

    Actually we have no real indication that a Subpace rip would destroy a ship. Dialogue is well and good, but untill proven by visuals or by the creator, Dialogue is essentially meaningless. Hence why I will drop the 400 gigawat argument. The other one is more fun anyway.
    Uh no. You really want the Ent-E to fly INTO a subspace tear JUST TO SEE if it could survive? How stupid do you think these people are? God, I'm glad you won't ever be captain of anything bigger than a rowboat.
    Hey, they decommision ships all the time. Just automate a few dozen and run some tests. But untill we have evidence it is just speculation.


    Visuals always overide Dialogue. Characters can be mistaken, but a visual cannot be wrong. That's the rules of reality. I mean who do you believe a zoologist saying that Polar bears have white skin, or the shaved polar bear in the background with blackskin?

    If a zoologist says polar bears have white skin, then he isn't a zoologist is he. Obviously trained officers talking about their field of expertise which they went thru YEARS of schooling and YEARS of on-site experience... they should know what they are talking about. Then again, we saw how well Star Wars officers know their ships... *grins at the thought of imperial officers all but ignoring rebel fighters only to have the DS explode*
    But even experts can occassionally be wrong. Zoologists were actually surprised when they discovered that Polar Bears are black skinned! But humans can and do err. That is why Visuals are king. Chakotya and Harry Kim might have been expecting the asteroid to be broken inot tiny pieces, but obviously it wasn't. By way the synthetic structure of the astorid should have helped it break into pieces. After all Iron is mallable, but ovaline shatters easily. So anything that should shatters Iron should pulverize Ovaline.


    As for the Blasters comment, like you admited with the Disruptor rifle simililarities account for the name. Description and effect as well as the mechnaics of the weapon, lasers heating a blaster gas into a super hot plasma to cuase a particle beam emmission says something else. plus honestly a laser moves at C and Turbolaser bolts just don't move quite that fast.
    Only one problem- the discrepency is EXPLAINED in ST... they never state such a thing in Star Wars. And also- Lasers are used in many SciFi movies. THe ONLY reason they don't move at C is because it would be INCREDIBLY boring having ships that simply cannot dodge no matter how fast they are.
    They never state it in the movies, but they do in the novels and tech readouts. But your "it boring" argument is not a suitable answer. We are, for the purpose of this conversation, treating these as if reality.


    Since you cannot remember and episode name, or even some specifics or thatn a ship destroyed by a tear, we cannot rely on your information. I do rely on the effect seen with the massive tear that the scientist intentionally caused. Revving up the warp cuased the tear to expand and some damage to the ship. They had to ride out the pulse waves like a frigging surfer.
    Show me the episode then. I remember the data logs being brought up about the nebula class ship being destroyed.
    TNG Forces of Nature


    Okay realizing that you meant ST. Some have theorized that the testing of the first nuclear bomb would have been visible from the moon. So don't be too cocky.
    yes, but that was from the fact that gas rose up to the upper atmosphere and brought tonnes of dust with it. I'm talking the actual EXPLOSION itself. The EXPLOSION of the Photon Torp made it above the atmosphere, not the debris field.


    What they hell are you talking about. If you mean Skin of Evil that was easily the warp core of the shuttle. NOWHERE else do you see a photon explosion that is remotely that big.


    Given how far way the fleet was from the Death Star you hardly would see the explosions. Especially after seeing ROTS and seeing how little damage 12.5 gigatons did to ships like that, even with their shields down. Remeber that SW has stable neutronium in their hulls. maybe not a lot, but enough to make life fun.

    No they don't. Neutronium, ala Star Trek CANON, requires an IMENSE gravitational field to control. As such a field, nor even a SIF, is mentioned in SW, their "neutronium" (which Han found ON A MOON AND COULD PICK UP ACCORDING TO YOUR BOOKS) is not Treks super neutronium. And do remember- Quantum torps only loose a little of their effect when combating Neutronium Armor.
    First, Star trek canon has argued with itself consistantly. In Relics the Dyson sphere had a layer of Nuetronium carbon alloy. Meaning it was acting as a metal. And there was not any stronger gravitional force at work than the weight of two stars totla for the who she bang. If there was any greater pull then the away team and scotty would not have been operating under 1 G.

    Second SW may call call it a heavy metal, but that is no different than how Ds9 treated it when they were going to infiltrate a base that had some in it's construction. Obviously no intense gravity there either. And in that case they did not consider even repeated Quantum torpedo bombardment sufficent.

    Then again since you shower at 250 degrees you must know better.

  7. #6147
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo07guy View Post
    Actually Kittamaru, Han was referring to compleatly destroying a planet, as in blowing it to pieces.A fleet of about 8 or so ISDs could turn the surface of a planet into molten slag fairly quickly.

    There is absolutely no air in space. It has been proven by astronomers. So an explosive shockwave would be nearly non-existant.

    Lasers in names are a misnomer in SW. Scientists have proven that. There was a whole documentary about SW tech that aired fairly recently on the History Channel. I suggest some of you watch it.

    I'm willing to bet that the Empirecould win, if it was willing to mass-produce Ark Hammer, Eclipse, Vengence, and Sovereign class Star Destroyers( not so much the Ark Hammer line of ships though). Kuat Drive Yards could probably produce a fairly large number of each class of ship in one month. I mean, it does have a huge metallic ring that circles and orbits it that is entirely devoted to the mass-production of ships.

    I'm pretty sure there is proof of replicators in SW tech. I mean, the Empire was only in power for about 40 years, and managed to build up a fleet of 25,000 ISDs in that time period. And about 90% of those were built at Kuat. The Empire does have many production worlds, but having 1 world produce almost your entire fleet has to speak something of production methods and building. You would almost certainly need replicators to make ships that fast. And thats not counting smaller ships or the capabilitys of other worlds.

    And the ST people are assuming all their sides would join together. I'm pretty sure the Klingons, Borg, and Cardassians would take advantage of the Federation's situation. The same goes for SW people. To qoute the Prophet of Truth from Halo: " Politics, how tiresome". I mean think about it. The Federation would be invaded by an economically and physically larger empire. Though I'm thinking the Federation would aid the Rebels.

    Personally, I think a more intresting match-up would be Halo vs. Battlestar Galactica.

    Of course, I wonder how far the more questionably legal groups in the Federation would be willing to go for some Spice, the wonder-drug.
    Except Han wasn't htere when the planet was destroyed, nor did he give exact scientific detail as just to how he tought the Empire could not destroy it. All he gives us is that the empire with an entire starfleet could not destroy that planet.

  8. #6148
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Actually only Three ISDs were sent to perform a BDZ of Bothuwai, the homeworld of the Bothans and one of the most heavily defended worlds in the New Republic. With the elaborate plan to take down one of the Planetary shield generators, the Three ISD's were considered enough to destroy all traces of civilization and all resoources on Bothuwai in less time than it would take for the orbiting fleets to engage them.
    Contradicted by higher evidence. It would take them days to do it. Also, no evidence of planetary shielding power.


    The Defiant quote was simply a statement. Not even a plan or project. Plus it referred to one world and we have not been told the size or composition of that world.
    Yes, because we all know top grade specialists have no fucking clue as to what they're doing, even when their hacking the defiant from a jeffries tube...

    Also:



    Its about earth size, stop bitching.

    Also if one Defiant class was all that was needed why didn't Section 31 just steal one?
    You mean Starbase 31? Why would they? Starbase 31 is *part* of the UFP, they don't need to steal a Defiant. And we all saw how the Cardassian and Romulan fleet was able to obliterate-oh wait, they all got killed...

    Can't just pick your evidence.
    Hey, he's got evidence, I stated this pages ago and you just ignored me, thus you did not wish to challenge it in any way, shape, or form.

  9. #6149
    That which cannot be known Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Sorry, but Who's to say it wouldn't be Empire+Federation pwning everyione one. Imagine a Sovereign upgunned to using SW shields and Heavy Turbolasers and Captital class Proton Torpedoes.




    There is Novel support for some replicator technologies. Some of the construction droids produce buidling while tearing apart older ones. It could be a limited form of technology. Possibly conciously limited so as to support a vibrant economy.

    As for the Star base 001, it could fire everything at an ISD and the ISD would barely even notice.
    (Scene ISD bridge)
    ISD Helm. "Captain we have broken out of hyperspace on target."

    ISD Captain: "Excellent, Hail the planet. I have orders to make the Emperors offer first. Planet Earth, Emperor Palpatine would like to extend to you an olive branch. Accept over all political mastery of the Empire and we will allow you planet regional autonomy."

    ISD Tactical: "Sir, their Starbase has started firing upon us. No damage as of yet."

    (Scene Outside)
    Star base one is firing dozens of Phaser Pulses and strange formations of Quantum torpedoes as well as Heavy Phaser beams. All of them strike the ISD head on but explode harmlessly on the shields.
    (Scene ISD bridge)

    ISD Captain: Could it be some sort of celebratory Fireworks display?
    Let me fix your scenario for you based upon the power levels we have been shown on screen:

    ISD Comes out of HyperSpace
    SB 001 opens comchannel with it
    001: Unidentified Vessel, state your-
    ISD: Surrender
    001: Yeah... right... *opens fire with a volley of twenty quantum torpedos*
    ISD: *breaks in half at the mid section*
    001: 0o' that was sad

    Sorry Scott, but what we see ON SCREEN overrides EU, and what we see On Screen shows ST having far better firepower and shielding than SW.

  10. #6150
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Actually, I have always gone by visuals for both.
    Than that explains why you assume the Empire has more firepower than the UFP after the Empire vaporized a 40 meter astroid and the UFP blew large hole into a Borg cube larger than said ISD?



    I'm not the fantic here, I am merely trying to educated misguided trekkies. However I will have you know I have never paid for sex. Also if you think SW fans are pathetic how come they have significant willing to dress up as Slave Liea?
    Oh, don't even give me that crap. You where just sitting her claiming how the UFP is a horrible dictatorship.

    And next, you started these sexual insults, questioning the sexuality of trekkies, odd enough given you haven't even seen our faces. But tell you what, I'll show you a picture of me taken about a month ago, just so we can see how bad it is:


    Shot with

    Ugly as sin right?

    Actually, not what I said at all, try trereading it slowly. I understand that the complicated thought process can trhough you off.
    Hey, can you bother me with your "complicated" posts and answer the seven or so of mine you just ignore when you get the living shit kicked out of you?

    1) Then why does he still act as if afraid of her and she doesn't act the least bit concerned of him
    ...he's a fucking Q!

    2) If true why does she not stop him
    Picard breaks it up before anything can go wrong, likely because he doesn't know Guinin's secret.

    3) So, that should not stop Q from doing what he likes to someone who is not Picard. Also Q owed the life Dept to Data, but not until after Q Who.
    What does this have to do with anything?
    4) Obviously not true if he fears her.
    I would hardly call it fear, more like concern.

    You can't get around the way he reacts to her.

    What? A demi-god like being who is unafraid of someone with lesser powers? He stated in Q Who that she is a danger, to Picard and his ship, he never said anything about himself. Guinin took up a defensive pose, because logically, it would be like a master kick boxer vs a thug on the street, the thug is still going to try to protect himself even if he's outmatched. Its called self preservation. And knowing Q, it wouldn't be pleasent where he sends her. You could also see it in her eyes that she was somewhat concerned with what he might do to her.

  11. #6151
    That which cannot be known Kittamaru's Avatar
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    My appologies on the water temperatures scott- I had meant to type 125 and 150. Most people consider food to be very hot at 125 and up.

    Also- Books are lesser canon to movies. If it is said, quite plainly, in the movies that an imperial starfleet cannot destroy a planet, they cannot. No matter how much you rub the books over your crotch it doesn't make it real.

    HOWEVER, we know from onscreen evidence (TOS and DS9) that a single Federation starship can slag an entire planet. Maybe not in very short order, but quickly enough to escape counter attack.

  12. #6152
    I dont think i'm ever going to be albe to sleep with image in my head, i'm so sad now

  13. #6153
    That which cannot be known Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Lol @ Fett.

    *shrugs* I'm you're standard looking 19 year old soccer playing video game loving college going teenager. Gotten a little heavy set due to trying to learn programming and the fact that, since I went to college, there was nowhere to play soccer, I gained about 20 pounds. No biggie as I am on a decent weight and cardio training regimine that is working well

  14. #6154
    Registered Senior Member
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    Actually, there is a very big difference between "destroy" and"slag". What Han meant was the TOTAL destruction of Alderaan i.e. compleatly blown to bits and made essentially non-existant. People who live under the Empires rule no what an ISD or group of ISDs can do to a planet. It is the same as knowing that a nuke can destroy a city, but coming across a group of radioactive and charred islands where a continent should be. You logically know that all the nukes in the world can't compleatly destroy a continent, so you know it couldn't of been those. After all, destroying a continent would take more then the entire worlds supply of nukes. Do you knida of see what I mean? ISDs slag the surface of a planet, making it uninhabitall, useless, and basically turning it into an even more hellish version of Mustafar. 1 ISD can do it, but a small fleet of about 8 or 9 ships is requiered to get it done in only about an hour or two. A larger fleet of about 250-500 ships can get it done in minutes. But the planet is still there, if radically altered.

    Still, SW seems to have the advantage in mass production. It is over ten times larger then the Federation, as it is said several times in books that the Empire and New Republic are made out of hundreds of thousands of worlds. Even if ST weapons are more powerful, they can still die the death of a thousand cuts.

    Though the SW books may not be considered the same kind of canon as the movies, they are still canon. You cannot just dismiss them as fan-fiction and saying that therefor, they don't count as canon. And however much you dislike the figures in the ICS books, they are still cannon. You cannot just wave them off.

    The borg problem about the large hole is simple to explain. The Borg relie too much on their shields for protection. Once the sheilds are down, they are relatively fragile. Their is proof of this as Federation ships often have immense trouble taking down borg shields, but once they do, the Borg ships are fairly easy pickings. They seem to have their ships made out of material that, while suitable for space flight and protecting against impacts, is not suitable for combat. So logically, a weapon like a phaser would do tremendous damage to the hull, even if the hull regenrates. If a phaser does tremendous damage to a relatively weak material, that should not be considered representitive of a phaser's offensive capability against an ISD.

    I can just tell that the above statement will get Kittamaru bitching at me.

    Personally, I think that that if all forces act as they normally do, the the Federation is likely to lose. It would have to deal with the borg attacking it while it is busy about fighting the Empire. So you get 5-way or 7-way battles during the war. The Empire likely wouldn't lose in that situation because it has far fewer enemys.

  15. #6155
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo07guy View Post
    Though the SW books may not be considered the same kind of canon as the movies, they are still canon. You cannot just dismiss them as fan-fiction and saying that therefor, they don't count as canon. And however much you dislike the figures in the ICS books, they are still cannon. You cannot just wave them off.
    Funny you say that, because we actually can, given that there are *two* forms of canon. The first is Film only canon, and the second is the Film+EU. Given that the Film sets the standard, I would have to say that BDZing a planet is non-canon as its not within shown film Imperial capability.

    The borg problem about the large hole is simple to explain. The Borg relie too much on their shields for protection. Once the sheilds are down, they are relatively fragile. Their is proof of this as Federation ships often have immense trouble taking down borg shields, but once they do, the Borg ships are fairly easy pickings. They seem to have their ships made out of material that, while suitable for space flight and protecting against impacts, is not suitable for combat. So logically, a weapon like a phaser would do tremendous damage to the hull, even if the hull regenrates. If a phaser does tremendous damage to a relatively weak material, that should not be considered representitive of a phaser's offensive capability against an ISD.
    No its not. And even if this was true, they use metal tougher than any found on Earth. Metal tends to be tougher than rock and nikel. In fact, even if we assume that both are made from the same materials, the UFP vaporized more than the total area of a ISD. How do you explain this away? Simple fact, the UFP is several orders stronger than the Empire.

    Personally, I think that that if all forces act as they normally do, the the Federation is likely to lose. It would have to deal with the borg attacking it while it is busy about fighting the Empire. So you get 5-way or 7-way battles during the war. The Empire likely wouldn't lose in that situation because it has far fewer enemys
    The borg invade like every seven years. They don't even care about the UFP all that much. And by the way, given a new target for assimilation, the Empire is fucked if the Borg decide to invade them.

    And given that their only enemies where a bunch of rebels who had little resources, the Romulans, the Klingons and the UFP might just stand a chance. Hell, using a virus to kill of all the midiclorins (or whatever they're called) would end the threat of the Empire for good.

  16. #6156
    That which cannot be known Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo07guy View Post
    Actually, there is a very big difference between "destroy" and"slag". What Han meant was the TOTAL destruction of Alderaan i.e. compleatly blown to bits and made essentially non-existant. People who live under the Empires rule no what an ISD or group of ISDs can do to a planet. It is the same as knowing that a nuke can destroy a city, but coming across a group of radioactive and charred islands where a continent should be. You logically know that all the nukes in the world can't compleatly destroy a continent, so you know it couldn't of been those. After all, destroying a continent would take more then the entire worlds supply of nukes. Do you knida of see what I mean? ISDs slag the surface of a planet, making it uninhabitall, useless, and basically turning it into an even more hellish version of Mustafar. 1 ISD can do it, but a small fleet of about 8 or 9 ships is requiered to get it done in only about an hour or two. A larger fleet of about 250-500 ships can get it done in minutes. But the planet is still there, if radically altered.

    Still, SW seems to have the advantage in mass production. It is over ten times larger then the Federation, as it is said several times in books that the Empire and New Republic are made out of hundreds of thousands of worlds. Even if ST weapons are more powerful, they can still die the death of a thousand cuts.

    Though the SW books may not be considered the same kind of canon as the movies, they are still canon. You cannot just dismiss them as fan-fiction and saying that therefor, they don't count as canon. And however much you dislike the figures in the ICS books, they are still cannon. You cannot just wave them off.

    The borg problem about the large hole is simple to explain. The Borg relie too much on their shields for protection. Once the sheilds are down, they are relatively fragile. Their is proof of this as Federation ships often have immense trouble taking down borg shields, but once they do, the Borg ships are fairly easy pickings. They seem to have their ships made out of material that, while suitable for space flight and protecting against impacts, is not suitable for combat. So logically, a weapon like a phaser would do tremendous damage to the hull, even if the hull regenrates. If a phaser does tremendous damage to a relatively weak material, that should not be considered representitive of a phaser's offensive capability against an ISD.

    There is an enherent problem with this though- watch First Contact. Even with the shields down tthat cube took an ass load of punishment before exploding, and even then ONLY because Picard knew exactly where to hit it.

    I can just tell that the above statement will get Kittamaru bitching at me.

    Personally, I think that that if all forces act as they normally do, the the Federation is likely to lose. It would have to deal with the borg attacking it while it is busy about fighting the Empire. So you get 5-way or 7-way battles during the war. The Empire likely wouldn't lose in that situation because it has far fewer enemys.

    Even the Borg have worked with the Federation before, but given their situaion (transwarp net is down remember) it's the Alpha Quadrent vs SW. Vulcans, Gorn, Hydrans, Federation, Romulans, Klingons, ect + Rebel Alliance vs Galactic Empire Remenents. If you want to say that all parties act as they usually do anyway *shrugs*
    ...

  17. #6157
    Registered Senior Member
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    400
    Read the what GL has to say about SW canon. The books all count as canon unless directly contradicted by the movies. BDZing is not contradicted by the movies, so it is canon.

    Force users also happen to have the uncanny ability to survive poisons and toxins. And then theres the fact that if midi-chlorians can be destroyed via virus, then why wasn't such a weapon made in SW. A Transporter might be able to strip Jedi or Sith of them, but even so, midi-chlorians are biological. A creature is not born fully developed. This true in SW,ST and in real life. And we know that biological things tend to have a habit of regrowing. Do you see my point?

    I'm starting to beleave what wikipedia said about Star Wars/Star Trek debates. It seems most people just like to flame, troll, and set up flamebait. I think the only sane and logical thinkers here are me, Saquist, and possibly Fettman, even if he is of questionable mentality.

  18. #6158
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    With the armor thing, I meant compared to the integrity of their shields. Their shields are extreamly powerful, and seems to be about 10 times stronger then the actual hull. Of course, The borg are known for hull regeneration.

  19. #6159
    That which cannot be known Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Hey! I like to think that I think logically :P

    You cannot deny, though, that Star Trek can, when needed, pull some mighty big fleets together. DS9 has some of the best fleet battles in ST, and that was with JUST the Feds and Klingons vs Cardassians and Dominion. Imagine the Feds, Rommies, Vulcans, and all their alpha quadrent buddies together. You could easily amass a few hundred thousand capital starships, not counting fighters, shuttlecraft, and frigates/PT boats (such as the defiant, norway, and other small classes of starship)

    Also, consider the Defiant has the same manuverability as a modern day F22 Raptor, yet at half light speed (full impulse) and you have a target that a human gunner (as is on the turrets of an ISD) is going to have a LOT of trouble hitting.

  20. #6160
    Registered Senior Member
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    Okay,Kittamaru.(Gives cookies and some cheese)
    Last edited by halo07guy; 07-15-07 at 10:47 PM.

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