Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Are you so sure? The inactive warp drive of the Enterprise E only escaped attetion from the Vulcan's becuase it was fortutitously in a blindspot. And it that was true could the Enterprise have prepared a fired a torpedo at warp speed to lure the rip away? You have no proof of this little theory or yours.

The torpedo's warp drive would not be large enough to counter the warp signature of the ship... and a few pages back, weren't you saying torpedos could NOT hit warp on their own? Also, going to warp with a subspace tear or rift pulls said anomaly towards your ship in a way that is inescapable.


Viewscreen does not mean shit as the can magnify or de magnify anything. The outside the ship visuals could and 3.5 km to 7 km is huge, dumbass.


Mhm. Yet we know for a fact that, as a standard, they start the viewer at 1x magnification for simplicities sake. It's not like they urn it on at 200x magnification.

Here you go again. You are assuming this Subspace tear has the same effect as the Nexus, which is a Temporal tear. We have no evidence that this weapon would even destroy a federation ship. They could have been running from it becuase, well hell they were already fighting two vessels. Adding in some damage from a Tear would just make life hell.

SubSpace Tear = SubSpace Tear. SubSpace Rift = SubSpace Rift. Temporal Distortion = temporal Distortion. Three VERY different phenomenon. I's no hard to figure out Scott- for one, the Nexus did NOT follow the ships warp core around like a dog on a very short leash. And no, they were running from the tear because it would godsmack their ship, just as everyone has done to every single one of your little suppositions.


And this would be different than a suddenly jump to Hyperspace how. After all the front part of the ship does leave normal space before the rest. Somehow the vessel stays intact.

Easy. HyperSpace is NOT SubSpace. Did you know your own body exists in as many as 6 dimensions RIGHT NOW? Did you know that, currently, we know of the existance of at LEAST two dozen different dimensions? SubSpace is not currently one of them, nor is HyperSpace. Think for a moment- Hyper, Sub. Two VERY different prefixes... could that POSSIBLY mean something? I dunno Scott, you tell me.


So using Warp in a subspace rip destroyed the vessel? You aren't making any sense here. You would have to produce a episode name. You also woulf have to prove all subspace tears are identical to that one. Which given other instances is not the case.

You would NEVER make it to warp- the MOMENT the warp engines go active, the tear expands and engulfs the ship, attracted to the warp signature. And, again, in ST, a SubSpace Tear is a fucking SubSpace Tear. Period. End of story AS PER GEORIDIES OWN WORDS.

"SubSpace weaponry is... unpredictable. That's why it was outlawed." He then goes on to say how it IS known to be highly attracted to a warp core and how impact with said tear is akin to instant death.


Dude you are insane, by effect, I meant pass through the shields. Of course it really shouldn't matter as the Torpedoes in question were and offshoot of the weapon and threfore never existed thanks to your canon. Watch and learn from your elders.

Star Trek Shields can adapt. Why?

A) Variable Harmonics
B) a MULTITUDE of settings that can be changed
C) Temporal Shielding is VERY different from standard shielding (as per Voyager when fighting the Kremin Time Ship)
D) They very much do exist, thanks to our canon.
E) You must be old and senile then because every one of your suppositions has been proven wrong thus far.

By the way if you remeber the Torpedoes in question only skipped over standard ST type shields. It did not take long for the crew to find aout about an adjustment that nullified this piercing effect. Though they are still nasty torpedoes. But obviously they do not pierce all shields.

See above

Mhm, as you were saying Scott?

[TW Scott]

TW...I must point out that you use your arguments very one-sidedly. By this I mean that you do not consider that which is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

No, I just believe in keeping the argument to Canon and not your trek-wank.

You posed a limit on Q (a canon god) because the best thing you saw him do in your opinion was move a moon (I've listed far better achievements). Yet still you thought breathing in a hostile atmosphere proved "limitless" Jedi powers.

A canon-god? You mean they have worshippers? Pfffffft. Q is damn impressive I will give you that, but we have seen hism do naught but time and space manipulations. We have not seen him create something from nothing. We knows he fears a person whose race was devastated by the Borg. No why would he fear her, unless he is not as omnipotent as he claims.

As for the Jedi, they just weren't breathing 2000 dregree air, they were breathing it at the same time they were performing feats of agility and engaging in a sword fight. Now that is just as Impressive as anything the Q have done. Mainly becuase the chemists here know that keeping flesh uncooked in that heat, is impossible.

You think that Enterprise E would not survive a subspace rip because the ship is comparitively small and fragile (in your opinion), yet you seem to think that because subspace rips never occured in SW, ISDs etc are automatically immune. While this can't be proven one way or the other, it should be clear that a theoretical rip in 'space-dimensional reality' will not be stopped by any matter whatsoever.

Actually i never said Subspace rips never happen in SW. Any ship with a Hyperdrive actually submits itself to the stresses of ripping inot an alternate reality every time the hyperdrive is engaged.

Besides you were the ones who were thinking the Enterprise E would be ripped asunder. Hell for all we know it could have just shorted out the power plants if it hit. Or tossed the ship around a bit. Or been like hit by ten photn torpedoes, or any number of things. We never actually got to see what it did.

NOW...laser based weapons have almost all been outmoded in the Trek universe. Even the Borg must eliminate shields to use their cutting laser. By the same token that you deny the certainty that a subspace rip will tear apart any Wars ship, you simply cannot prove (suggested power levels or otherwise) that any laser based weapon can harm any Trek universe shielded ship simply because it has never been done!

Lasers have been outmoded this I agree, but you would also have to agree that the only resemblance that Turbolaser has to a Laser is name only. The beam does not act like a laser, and like we always say Visuals over Dialogue. Like I have explained before Torbolaser just might be the brand name, or a slight misnomer like Disrupter Rifle. After all is a Disrupter's barrle rifled?

And I can argue against the certatinty of a Subspace rift destroying a ship. We have not seen it done. We might have seen what happens if a ship goes to warp in a Subspace rift, but that is different animal.


The only Proof is visuals, everything else is conjecture.

[Kittamaru]

Just becuase you have no clue what an actual AI is, does not give you a pass in this argument. While i agree that a cleaning drone is not sentient, it is an AI, just like the robots we build today, like the one that learned to climb stairs. You are confusing Self aware with AI.

Scott, I am afraid to say you are the confused one. AI = Artificial Intelligence. WE DO NOT HAVE ANY TRUE AI TODAY. The closest we have is a single computer simulation that gives the APPEARANCE of emotion. It does NOT actually have any.


Incorrect. He outright lied to Luke about the hologram. C-3PO actually admonishes him to trust Luke.

I can program a PC to lie to someone it hasn't met before based on optical and acoustic input, then have it tell the truth based on a known voice prompt via voice recognition software... big fucking deal.

He has been programmed to avoid combat, yes, but not his owners. Why would a droid hide when a fellow droid ran away? As for his programming there are times he moves beyond it. In A New Hope, he is actually angry at R2-D2 and later blames him for his predicament and hopes he fairs no better. If he is not self aware why was he speaking to himself.

Because a logic process as such would follow:
Allied Droid Running Scared -> Danger/Enemy nearby -> Initiate self preservation protocols -> analyze environment -> determine concealmen the best course of action. Also, the interaction with R2D2 - we have "autonamarons" today that can do the same... you ever own two furbies? Little fuckers would talk all night till one of em pissed the other off! You are saying C3P0 = Furby?

Actually the head area on the Battledroid is so small that it is probably just a sensor cluster and dedicated targeting SPU and partial speach center. The main brain would be much safer in the main body. Conversely the C-3PO droid probably has to use a processor in the head area that handles the cognitive thinking and a processor in the body for movement.

mhm, Prove it scott. It's your argument, PROVE that this is what they did. By this logic, it would be safest to have auxiliary shielding around the bridge of a starship, yet SSD's do not have it...

Yes, he does, and this was programmed by his designer. So obviously any emotions felt are a direct result of programming. You do not hear of any emotion chip in SW, do you?

Oh really? You DO realize that, at first, Data did NOT feel emotions. Hell, he could not even WHISTLE. Over the course of YEARS his programming, which ONLY gave him the base resources to survive, evolved as he strived to better himself. He developed emotions WAY before he go the Chip, though they were not 100% human equivalent emotions. He also had Sex with a HUMAN BEING, something that R2D2 and C3P0 can NEVER claim.

So he disobeyed and order. he was programmed to adapt and in this the greater orders of catch the Romulans foreshadowed any subsequent orders. yes he yelled at an exec, which he would have learned in basic psychology is a effective, if abusive way to make the other party back off. However non of that relied on emotion and all focused on his programming to learn, adapt and succeed. He was never programmed to obey orders.

Actually, based on the inflection in his voice, it is VERY easy to say he was frustrated and annoyed with the person he was yelling at. He WAS programmed to obey orders, he just slowly has learned that sometimes it is best to think for himself.

Actually he arrested her as she passed therough DS9 space. He did not have the authority to track her down. And you are right it was as soon as he had the evidence. But my logic was not that every FBI agent would be arrest as co-conspirators in every case they investigate. More like every customs official that has a relationship with the head of a shipping company should be investigated if their bed partner is smuggling drugs.

Okay, now you lost me... wtf are you going on about?

I tolod you my beef was with TNG, TOS the Federation was still a democracy. In TNG it has turned into a bigbriother police state.

Scott, in TNG the StarFleet is an imperial mandated democracy. Democracy is a horrible way to govern a large territory. Why? because people will NEVER GET ALONG. Look at my own country, the USA, for an example of this. Too many different ideas about the simplest things and NOBODY is willing to compromise and, as a result, NOTHING gets done. THAT WOULD NOT FUCKING CUT IT IN A MILITARY ORGANIZATION! The Federation Council = Senate/House of Reps. The PEOPLE have a say in their government. THE GOVERNMEN WORKS TO HELP THE PEOPLE. That is a democracy according to most definitions.

Sarek is too royalty, or did you not get that? Of course not you'd have to actually pay attention. He isn't a direct heir, hell he might not even be in the top fifty but he is a Royal. And yes Royals can be Ambassadors. As to Luwxana, what would you call the ship at the personal desposal to a royal?

As for Sarek, do remember- he is Vulcan. Eg, tight grip on emotions. Royalty is an emotional trait. He IS of high stature and he earned it! Thus, he was rewarded with a good ship and crew... but HOW DO YOU THINK HE EARNED IT? As for Luwaxana, she's insane anyway *shrugs* but, if you do recall, there are MANY ships outside of StarFleet that people use. Most of them are smaller one or two person craft which makes SENSE as you don't need a large crew to pilot them.

Does the Queen or England own her Yachts, no the British government does. however it is not absurd. Everytime you see an individual with a ship, in TNG, they are either a non Federation Alien. Or a human that operates their ship mostly outside the Federation.

Actually, she owns more than a mere Yacht... but if you want to get TECHNICAL, you do not even own the soil you live on in the USA- the government does. So you are saying the USA is not a democracy?

Now I am not saying that this is Law in the Federation, It just might be economics. After all all major industry in the federation is nationalized as of TNG. The only Corporations you hear of are under Ferengi or other nations rules.

Uh, no. There are many different corporations in ST, it's just they do other things. Who needs large manufacturing plants when you have Replicators after all... Hell, take Picards VINEYARD for example!

they might be federation citizen, but they do have pull and use of the limited defense fleets each planet is allowed. Now like i said iabove it might be entirely economical. Still any nation that every major industry is nationalized is...well at least not a free Economy.

Picards Vineyard comes to mind yet again... among the many resturaunts and bars on Earth... I do believe those people do NOT work there simply out of pleasure for doing so...

Wiki is unrelieable to say the least. And who says he had the money to buy a ship. there are things in this world a Billionaire has the money to buy, but can't just becuase the industry is controlled form above.

Oh really? Bill Gates comes to mind- he has a house hat is 100% computerized. There are COMMERCIAL space-flights that will be available in the next 5 years. There are things you can buy in this world you would not BELIEVE. Name me something you CANNOT buy with a lot of money and I will either give you a damned good reason why or prove you wrong.

They were starfleet affliliates. Are you saying that you would not get a jury in Rhode Island if it was a state trial and not a Federal Trial.

If it is a FEDERAL trial, you would be tried by a Federal court... duh.

Actually the first time he was tried was definately not a Federation world. It was inside the Federation, but not a signatory.



Actually some military trials do have juries. After all you can be tried for something that is not a military crime but is a civillian crime. Get over yourself.

As he said, most, extenuating circumstances, ect. Learn to fucking read.

A Court martial or Judiciary hearing should only be used when there is a crime against the military. That is pretty much the way it goes in a democracy. Data had to have been declared a sentient being just to attend Starfleet Academy. He was also not a Federation scientific experiment. Merely the experiment of a citizen who did not use federation funds to create Data. Starfleet made no initial outlay to purchase Data. And their studies of him, were similiar to the studies of any sentient race.

However, Data was FORCED to prove in a Court martial that he was a Sentient being. Something that the past had already documented in some detail. All becuase some scientist wanted to take him apart.

And the scientist made a decent case, thus was listened to. Data was given the right to defend himself. And War Crimes are often against civilians, yet they result in both court martials AND non-military hearings...

Of course this does not surprise me, the Federation Council was behind the events that led to the Enterprise E defending a non native population in Insurrection. The council also was behind the decision to hand over dozens of colonized Federation worlds to the Cardassians for politicla expediency. And then advocated for the force movement of the colonists. Uh, actually, if you remember correctly, the Federation Council was UNAWARE the planet was inhabited by more than a handful of sentient beings... they were TRICKED dumbass.

*yawns* more of your surrogate suppositions shot down.

[Kittamaru]

No, I just believe in keeping the argument to Canon and not your trek-wank.

Translation: Wars Wank + ST Canon

A canon-god? You mean they have worshippers? Pfffffft. Q is damn impressive I will give you that, but we have seen hism do naught but time and space manipulations. We have not seen him create something from nothing. We knows he fears a person whose race was devastated by the Borg. No why would he fear her, unless he is not as omnipotent as he claims.

Not all Gods have worshipers idiot. He doesn't FEAR Gainan, he just really dislikes her. And the ONLY time he even went THAT far was when he had been stripped of his powers. Also, manipulation of time and space... are you daft? HE CAN CHANGE THE GRAVITATIONAL CONSTANT OF THE UNIVERSE ON A WHIM! HE IS CAPABLE OF SURVIVING IN THE COLD VACCUME OF SPACE! He is ALSO able to play with peoples minds at the most intimate levels!

As for the Jedi, they just weren't breathing 2000 dregree air, they were breathing it at the same time they were performing feats of agility and engaging in a sword fight. Now that is just as Impressive as anything the Q have done. Mainly becuase the chemists here know that keeping flesh uncooked in that heat, is impossible.

Not really- Buddhist monks can hold bars of steel that are glowing WHITE HOT and not be burned. High-ranked martial artists can have cinderblocks and bricks broken via their hands without harming their bodies. One person I remember vividly was able to punch thru six inches of solid concrete with his fist- 6 inches of concrete is NORMALLY harder than a few quarter inch thick bones. Also, FireFighters and Astronaughts survive some insane temperatures... technology my deranged friend.

Actually i never said Subspace rips never happen in SW. Any ship with a Hyperdrive actually submits itself to the stresses of ripping inot an alternate reality every time the hyperdrive is engaged.

Yes, but it is done in a very specific organized way... not a random *WHACK HALF OF YOU IS RIPPED INTO ANOTHER DIMENSION*

Besides you were the ones who were thinking the Enterprise E would be ripped asunder. Hell for all we know it could have just shorted out the power plants if it hit. Or tossed the ship around a bit. Or been like hit by ten photn torpedoes, or any number of things. We never actually got to see what it did.

Uh, no. We know from what is STATED that it would destroy the ship... considering ships in ST can withstand the event horizon of a supermassive black hole (VOY), it is safe to assume it is a VERY powerful thing indeed.

Lasers have been outmoded this I agree, but you would also have to agree that the only resemblance that Turbolaser has to a Laser is name only. The beam does not act like a laser, and like we always say Visuals over Dialogue. Like I have explained before Torbolaser just might be the brand name, or a slight misnomer like Disrupter Rifle. After all is a Disrupter's barrle rifled?

Not really- it's a big, bright, beam of light. Beyond that, we don't know how they work beyond they are some sort of CHEMICAL LASER that uses a cyclotron to build up a charge and then unleashes it. And no, Dialogue = Visuals, sorry Scott. UNLESS LUCAS HIMSELF SAID VISUALS OVERRULE DIALOGUE, YOU ARE NOT GETTING YOUR WAY! And a Disruptor Rifle is so called because it resembles the rifles of 21st century earth.

And I can argue against the certatinty of a Subspace rift destroying a ship. We have not seen it done. We might have seen what happens if a ship goes to warp in a Subspace rift, but that is different animal.

Uh, no. Going to warp merely brings the rift TO the ship... nothing more.

The only Proof is visuals, everything else is conjecture.

Then you are dead in the water because SW visuals show VERY low power levels. Hell, you can BARELY SEE the explosions when Luke was talking w/ the Emperor. In SW, they can make explosions with low-yeild torpedos that are seen 300 miles above the outer atmosphere of a large planet!

boosh!

[Kittamaru]

Aw, no more bullshit scott? I was on a roll there! It's fun proving you an idiot, but it's almost too easy.

[TW Scott]

Are you so sure? The inactive warp drive of the Enterprise E only escaped attetion from the Vulcan's becuase it was fortutitously in a blindspot. And it that was true could the Enterprise have prepared a fired a torpedo at warp speed to lure the rip away? You have no proof of this little theory or yours.
The torpedo's warp drive would not be large enough to counter the warp signature of the ship... and a few pages back, weren't you saying torpedos could NOT hit warp on their own? Also, going to warp with a subspace tear or rift pulls said anomaly towards your ship in a way that is inescapable.

Okay first you were the one saying that a active Warp over shadows an inactive warp, so bviously you must be plauying Clavinball

Second, notice I said prepare. Probably childs play to switch out the warp sustainer engines of a Photon Torpedo for the mini warp cells in some probes. Keep travelling long enough and viola.

Also you have no proof that it pulls the tear towards you when you head to warp. Only that a ship in the tear should not Warp.

Viewscreen does not mean shit as the can magnify or de magnify anything. The outside the ship visuals could and 3.5 km to 7 km is huge, dumbass.

Mhm. Yet we know for a fact that, as a standard, they start the viewer at 1x magnification for simplicities sake. It's not like they urn it on at 200x magnification.

Actually we know no such thing. They never come out and say it. They never even imply it. Hell it could be set to "Fit to width of screen'

Here you go again. You are assuming this Subspace tear has the same effect as the Nexus, which is a Temporal tear. We have no evidence that this weapon would even destroy a federation ship. They could have been running from it becuase, well hell they were already fighting two vessels. Adding in some damage from a Tear would just make life hell.

SubSpace Tear = SubSpace Tear. SubSpace Rift = SubSpace Rift. Temporal Distortion = temporal Distortion. Three VERY different phenomenon. I's no hard to figure out Scott- for one, the Nexus did NOT follow the ships warp core around like a dog on a very short leash. And no, they were running from the tear because it would godsmack their ship, just as everyone has done to every single one of your little suppositions.

Actually the first two are identical except for scale, all a Rift is is a really big Tear. And they were just moving away form the tear as it formed. They were pulling it accross space, and oddly it was slowing them down, but any movie goer could see it was not catching up in a hurry. They could have used it to destroy a So'na ship and still had time to ditch it. But they didn't. Possibly becuase it was pulling on the Warp core and creating a fear of breach. Or perhaps it just slowing down the ship. If the tear was truly that effective why didn't the sona create more of them?

And this would be different than a suddenly jump to Hyperspace how? After all the front part of the ship does leave normal space before the rest. Somehow the vessel stays intact.
Easy. HyperSpace is NOT SubSpace. Did you know your own body exists in as many as 6 dimensions RIGHT NOW? Did you know that, currently, we know of the existance of at LEAST two dozen different dimensions? SubSpace is not currently one of them, nor is HyperSpace. Think for a moment- Hyper, Sub. Two VERY different prefixes... could that POSSIBLY mean something? I dunno Scott, you tell me.

Well, you have yet to document the effect of a Subspace Tear or Rift, well except exploding ships that go to warp. Problem is you have to prove it is capable of doing what you claim. Or at least get the creator to agree with you claims

I'm covered becuase we know the Death Star obliterates planets. I'm also covered becuase Lucas agrees with 12.5 gigatons.

So using Warp in a subspace rip destroyed the vessel? You aren't making any sense here. You would have to produce a episode name. You also woulf have to prove all subspace tears are identical to that one. Which given other instances is not the case.
You would NEVER make it to warp- the MOMENT the warp engines go active, the tear expands and engulfs the ship, attracted to the warp signature. And, again, in ST, a SubSpace Tear is a fucking SubSpace Tear. Period. End of story AS PER GEORIDIES OWN WORDS.

"SubSpace weaponry is... unpredictable. That's why it was outlawed." He then goes on to say how it IS known to be highly attracted to a warp core and how impact with said tear is akin to instant death.

I like how you can give the quote for the first part, but not the other two parts. i mean in Insurrection they seemed slightly surprised that the Warp core was dragging the tear like a zipper. Not majorly, but slightly.

However as you said it is unpredictable, meaning you could probably never get a result like that again.

BTW Tear, Rip, Rift, Hole, Puncture, all same difference and if you can't see that perhaps that is your problem

Dude you are insane, by effect, I meant pass through the shields. Of course it really shouldn't matter as the Torpedoes in question were and offshoot of the weapon and threfore never existed thanks to your canon. Watch and learn from your elders.
Star Trek Shields can adapt. Why?

A) Variable Harmonics
B) a MULTITUDE of settings that can be changed
C) Temporal Shielding is VERY different from standard shielding (as per Voyager when fighting the Kremin Time Ship)
D) They very much do exist, thanks to our canon.
E) You must be old and senile then because every one of your suppositions has been proven wrong thus far.

A) lazy engineering trick of lowering your shields in a frequency so your weapons can pass through
B) Slightly smarter engineering trick where you can change frequecies just in case some dipshit leaks the setting
C) Can't be that different if the shield grid can create one
D) Nope, sorry, Along with the Krenim Temporal weapon they are nonexistant in actual timeline. May exist in Alternate What if...? timelines, but completely inaccessible that to Temporal Prime Directive.
E) Speaking to yourself again?

By the way if you remeber the Torpedoes in question only skipped over standard ST type shields. It did not take long for the crew to find aout about an adjustment that nullified this piercing effect. Though they are still nasty torpedoes. But obviously they do not pierce all shields.

See above

Your Sci Fi is weak. You have yet to explain why they would skip over SW shields despite vast diffence in design and operations.

[TW Scott]

Aw, no more bullshit scott? I was on a roll there! It's fun proving you an idiot, but it's almost too easy.

Hey, Kittamaru, i know you directed the first part of your statement to me. The second part, i really do not care about your seating arrangments. And the third, do you have MPD and are talking to yourself?

The only person you have proved an idiot, is Kittamaru

[TW Scott]

No, I just believe in keeping the argument to Canon and not your trek-wank.
Translation: Wars Wank + ST Canon

Interesting. Your inventions and fabrication are canon? Unless your name is Gene Roddenberry, I think not

As for your term of Wars Wank, Star Wars fan actually can get laid you realize, much unlike the majority of Trekkies. So if anyone needs wank.....

A canon-god? You mean they have worshippers? Pfffffft. Q is damn impressive I will give you that, but we have seen hism do naught but time and space manipulations. We have not seen him create something from nothing. We knows he fears a person whose race was devastated by the Borg. Now why would he fear her, unless he is not as omnipotent as he claims.

Not all Gods have worshipers idiot. He doesn't FEAR Gainan, he just really dislikes her. And the ONLY time he even went THAT far was when he had been stripped of his powers. Also, manipulation of time and space... are you daft? HE CAN CHANGE THE GRAVITATIONAL CONSTANT OF THE UNIVERSE ON A WHIM! HE IS CAPABLE OF SURVIVING IN THE COLD VACCUME OF SPACE! He is ALSO able to play with peoples minds at the most intimate levels!

Actually to properly be a God you do need worshippers, asshole. Other wise you are just some jerk with powers.

Second, yes he does fear Guinan. If he didn't he would smimply teleport her to a star. But he doesn't, why?

Third, creating an maintaining a forcefield with air and warmth inside is well within federation technology.

Finally Q has not shown the ability to alter minds at all. Hormone levels certainly. But not actual emotions

As for the Jedi, they just weren't breathing 2000 dregree air, they were breathing it at the same time they were performing feats of agility and engaging in a sword fight. Now that is just as Impressive as anything the Q have done. Mainly becuase the chemists here know that keeping flesh uncooked in that heat, is impossible.
Not really- Buddhist monks can hold bars of steel that are glowing WHITE HOT and not be burned. High-ranked martial artists can have cinderblocks and bricks broken via their hands without harming their bodies. One person I remember vividly was able to punch thru six inches of solid concrete with his fist- 6 inches of concrete is NORMALLY harder than a few quarter inch thick bones. Also, FireFighters and Astronaughts survive some insane temperatures... technology my deranged friend.

First it is possible to get white hot glowing metal without it being even 350 degrees F. however this is impressive act, that is not obtainable by the untrained.

However I bet you you will find no individual on earth that can have a several minute long sword fight standing just feet above flowing lava and wearing normal clothes. Hell i bet you can find no individual on earth that could survivwe 1000 degree air temperature unaided by technology.

Actually I never said Subspace rips never happen in SW. Any ship with a Hyperdrive actually submits itself to the stresses of ripping inot an alternate reality every time the hyperdrive is engaged.
Yes, but it is done in a very specific organized way... not a random *WHACK HALF OF YOU IS RIPPED INTO ANOTHER DIMENSION*

Actually no difference as by visuals we know that the front part of the ship does enter Hyperspace first as well as exit it. We also know that misjumps do occur. Mostly resulting in minor damage or temporal displacement. Only extremely rarely does a misjump result in destruction of the ship

Still it does not matter you have to prove that a sublight ship would be destroyed by a subspace rip, something we have not seen.

Besides you were the ones who were thinking the Enterprise E would be ripped asunder. Hell for all we know it could have just shorted out the power plants if it hit. Or tossed the ship around a bit. Or been like hit by ten photon torpedoes, or any number of things. We never actually got to see what it did.
Uh, no. We know from what is STATED that it would destroy the ship... considering ships in ST can withstand the event horizon of a supermassive black hole (VOY), it is safe to assume it is a VERY powerful thing indeed.

Actually we have no real indication that a Subpace rip would destroy a ship. Dialogue is well and good, but untill proven by visuals or by the creator, Dialogue is essentially meaningless. Hence why I will drop the 400 gigawat argument. The other one is more fun anyway.

Lasers have been outmoded this I agree, but you would also have to agree that the only resemblance that Turbolaser has to a Laser is name only. The beam does not act like a laser, and like we always say Visuals over Dialogue. Like I have explained before Torbolaser just might be the brand name, or a slight misnomer like Disrupter Rifle. After all is a Disrupter's barrle rifled?
Not really- it's a big, bright, beam of light. Beyond that, we don't know how they work beyond they are some sort of CHEMICAL LASER that uses a cyclotron to build up a charge and then unleashes it. And no, Dialogue = Visuals, sorry Scott. UNLESS LUCAS HIMSELF SAID VISUALS OVERRULE DIALOGUE, YOU ARE NOT GETTING YOUR WAY! And a Disruptor Rifle is so called because it resembles the rifles of 21st century earth.

Visuals always overide Dialogue. Characters can be mistaken, but a visual cannot be wrong. That's the rules of reality. I mean who do you believe a zoologist saying that Polar bears have white skin, or the shaved polora bear in the background with blackskin?

As for the Blasters comment, like you admited with the Disruptor rifle simililarities account for the name. Description and effect as well as the mechnaics of the weapon, lasers heating a blaster gas into a super hot plasma to cuase a particle beam emmission says something else. plus honestly a laser moves at C and Turbolaser bolts just don't move quite that fast.

And I can argue against the certatinty of a Subspace rift destroying a ship. We have not seen it done. We might have seen what happens if a ship goes to warp in a Subspace rift, but that is different animal.

Uh, no. Going to warp merely brings the rift TO the ship... nothing more.

Since you cannot remeber and episode name, or even some specifics or thatn a ship destroyed by a tear, we cannot rely on your information. I do rely on the efferct seen with the massive tear that the scientist intentionally caused. Revving up the warp cuased the tear to expand and some damage to the ship. They had to ride out the pulse waves like a frigging surfer.

The only Proof is visuals, everything else is conjecture.
Then you are dead in the water because SW visuals show VERY low power levels. Hell, you can BARELY SEE the explosions when Luke was talking w/ the Emperor. In SW, they can make explosions with low-yeild torpedos that are seen 300 miles above the outer atmosphere of a large planet!

Okay realizing that you meant ST. Some have theorized that the testing of the first nuclear bomb would have been visible from the moon. So don't be too cocky.

Given how far way the fleet was from the Death Star you hardly would see the explosions. Especially after seeing ROTS and seeing how little damage 12.5 gigatons did to ships like that, even with their shields down. Remeber that SW has stable neutronium in their hulls. maybe not a lot, but enough to make life fun.

[Kittamaru]

Okay first you were the one saying that a active Warp over shadows an inactive warp, so bviously you must be plauying Clavinball

Uh, no, I said it would be attracted to the LARGER WARP SIGNATURE and that an ACTIVE WARP CORE is often a much larger signature than an INACTIVE one.

Second, notice I said prepare. Probably childs play to switch out the warp sustainer engines of a Photon Torpedo for the mini warp cells in some probes. Keep travelling long enough and viola.

Pointless as they already have them *shrugs*

Also you have no proof that it pulls the tear towards you when you head to warp. Only that a ship in the tear should not Warp.

Proof is what was said by Geordi- "Our warp core is pulling itt across space like a zipper." That inherently implies it is ATTRACTED to the warp field- increase the field strength, increase the attraction. That and there is a recorded incident of a ship trying to warp away from a subspace TEAR with disasterous results- the tear literally JUMPED onto them.


Actually we know no such thing. They never come out and say it. They never even imply it. Hell it could be set to "Fit to width of screen'


See above

Actually the first two are identical except for scale, all a Rift is is a really big Tear. And they were just moving away form the tear as it formed. They were pulling it accross space, and oddly it was slowing them down, but any movie goer could see it was not catching up in a hurry. They could have used it to destroy a So'na ship and still had time to ditch it. But they didn't. Possibly becuase it was pulling on the Warp core and creating a fear of breach. Or perhaps it just slowing down the ship. If the tear was truly that effective why didn't the sona create more of them?


A Rift is a bend in subspace. A Tear is just that- a TEAR. The tear in Insurrection was catching up to them rather quickly considering they were at MAXIMUM VELOCITY for the Briar Patch. Those Meterion nebulae would tear the sublight drives clean off your SSD's given how you have said they work. And why didn't they make more of them? Riker himself said they could and that they were fresh out of spare warp cores to seal them with. Watch the movie before you speak.

Well, you have yet to document the effect of a Subspace Tear or Rift, well except exploding ships that go to warp. Problem is you have to prove it is capable of doing what you claim. Or at least get the creator to agree with you claims

You really expect me to go thru hundreds of episodes of Trek to try and prove something to YOU of all people? Even if it was said ON SCREEN that it did that you would deny it. I am basing this assumption off the fact THAT YOU HAVE DONE IT MULTIPLE TIMES BEFORE! (remember you're dialogue is subjugate to visuals speach? Exactly)

I'm covered becuase we know the Death Star obliterates planets. I'm also covered becuase Lucas agrees with 12.5 gigatons.

I'm covered because we know the entire imperial armada isn't enough to destroy a planets ecosystem, yet a single CONSTITUTION class starship can and a single DEFIANT class starship can turn the entire surface MOLTEN in hours.



I like how you can give the quote for the first part, but not the other two parts. i mean in Insurrection they seemed slightly surprised that the Warp core was dragging the tear like a zipper. Not majorly, but slightly.

They were surprised that the Sona USED them since they were you know, ILLEGAL. Geordi wasn't at all surprised at the effect and even had a solution

However as you said it is unpredictable, meaning you could probably never get a result like that again.

Forming the rifts is easy- closing them and controling them is when they are unpredictable.

BTW Tear, Rip, Rift, Hole, Puncture, all same difference and if you can't see that perhaps that is your problem

Uh, no. Tear a piece of cloth. Now punch a hole in it with a knife. Now puncture it with a hole punch. Now wave it around to create waves. See the difference?





A) lazy engineering trick of lowering your shields in a frequency so your weapons can pass through Actually it is VERY effective because now you have 100% shield coverage instead of leaving egress ports for your weapons to pass thru. Eg, I can fire a phaser straight up your turbolaser barrel and it's goodtimes for the federation
B) Slightly smarter engineering trick where you can change frequecies just in case some dipshit leaks the setting Actually, it's so they can best defend against a multitude of different weapon types
C) Can't be that different if the shield grid can create one Oh yes it can, hence why it took a while to modify the shield grid to do so
D) Nope, sorry, Along with the Krenim Temporal weapon they are nonexistant in actual timeline. May exist in Alternate What if...? timelines, but completely inaccessible that to Temporal Prime Directive. Actually, if you watch Voyager, you will notice that such a directive is non existant. In fact, Janeway makes a few excursions thru time on the ship aptly named the Incursion class. Granted, it's FUTURE technology, but Seven gets a damned good look at it... and the future tech armor and weapons are nice additions o the rest of Starfleet
E) Speaking to yourself again? Only if you are deaf




Your Sci Fi is weak. You have yet to explain why they would skip over SW shields despite vast diffence in design and operations.

Have Star Wars shields EVER encountered anything like that before? Nope. Is it safe to assume they do not EXPECT time travel weaponry? Yes. Is it thus safe to assume their shields were not DESIGNED to protect against weapons that, quite simply, do not exist until they detonate? Very. Thus, your ships are fucked

C'mon scott, you can do better than that

[Hellblade8]

No, I just believe in keeping the argument to Canon and not your trek-wank.

Funny you should mention this TW. Because you're actually being dishonest. You see, Lucas Arts has two canon systems. They have one for the movies, where the movies alone are canon, and they have the ones which apply to EU. In essence, there is a policy for both movie only fans and movie+EU fans.

A canon-god? You mean they have worshippers? Pfffffft. Q is damn impressive I will give you that, but we have seen hism do naught but time and space manipulations. We have not seen him create something from nothing. We knows he fears a person whose race was devastated by the Borg. No why would he fear her, unless he is not as omnipotent as he claims.

He meant in terms of power (better would be to say demi-god). And as for Guinin, you fail to realize what is actually taking place. In Q Who, Q mentions that she is more dangerous than Picard knows and offers to get rid of her for him, when this is said, she takes up a defensive posture. No, not "no, don't hurt me!" kind of posture, but a posture as if she was going to cast a spell, or try to do something back to Q. So more than likely, she's actually dangerous.

Though an out of universe explination is that it was just a sub-plot that never got fleshed out, where Guinin is a being with powers that rival Q (though Q is stronger) and it just never came to be.

As for the Jedi, they just weren't breathing 2000 dregree air, they were breathing it at the same time they were performing feats of agility and engaging in a sword fight. Now that is just as Impressive as anything the Q have done. Mainly becuase the chemists here know that keeping flesh uncooked in that heat, is impossible.

Big F*ing deal. The battle with multiple Q's caused super novas as the side effects of their battles. Both Q and Amanda stood outside of the Enterprise D while it was moving faster than the speed of light, talking as if they where taking a light stroll. Amanda created puppies out of thin air, before she even knew she was a Q. Q caused a Warp Core breach, and when it started to explode, Amanda easily reversed the effect. In a game of hide and seek, Q popped his head out of the warp core. Q turned someone into a dog. He also gave Riker the powers of Q, not to mention created hot women out of thin air. He even shrunk an energy attacker to fit in the size of his hand after re-gaining his powers. The Q even exacuted Amanda's parents with a tornado, ignoring even the weather modification net. Amanda was even able to reverse the effects of countless years of planetary pollution to a perfect planetary state. Q has shown the ability to time travel, and not only that, is able to send people into a time jumping mode where they jump from past, to present, to future. He's even created a wall of plasma, and followed a UFP ship at light speed, not to mention hurled said ship a quater of the way across the galaxy in seconds, something both Borg, Imperial, and UFP ships cannot do. All with the snap of his fingers. He's even able to change the constants of the universe. He's even said it himself that using the power of Q is basicly just wanting it to happen.

And the Jedi? Oooh, they managed to cool the air around them enough in a sword fight. Whoop di fucking do.

Actually i never said Subspace rips never happen in SW. Any ship with a Hyperdrive actually submits itself to the stresses of ripping inot an alternate reality every time the hyperdrive is engaged.

*yawn*

Prove that SW subspace and ST subspace are the same thing.d

Besides you were the ones who were thinking the Enterprise E would be ripped asunder. Hell for all we know it could have just shorted out the power plants if it hit. Or tossed the ship around a bit. Or been like hit by ten photn torpedoes, or any number of things. We never actually got to see what it did.

Given that the crew was thinking "Oh, shit!", one might assume something very bad was going to happen.

Lasers have been outmoded this I agree, but you would also have to agree that the only resemblance that Turbolaser has to a Laser is name only. The beam does not act like a laser, and like we always say Visuals over Dialogue. Like I have explained before Torbolaser just might be the brand name, or a slight misnomer like Disrupter Rifle. After all is a Disrupter's barrle rifled?

Really? You seemed to assume that sub-space in SW is the same as ST, so why can't we assume the very same thing with lasers?

The only Proof is visuals, everything else is conjecture.

Bullshit. Or how about when the Mirror Universe was looking at their Archer's profile and it just happened to be the other one's file?

[Kittamaru]

Interesting. Your inventions and fabrication are canon? Unless your name is Gene Roddenberry, I think not

One could say the same to you, Mister "Oh the visuals in trek overrule what the engineering officers say even though the opposite applys to star wars just because their visuals SUCK

As for your term of Wars Wank, Star Wars fan actually can get laid you realize, much unlike the majority of Trekkies. So if anyone needs wank.....

Ahahahah. Yes, indeed, you get laid by your paid lover every night don't you scott. That's why star wars fans have their significant others dress up in princess leigh slave outfits? Sorry, but Trekkies aren't NEARLY as insane as Rabid Warsies like yourself. If you ever get laid, it's a sad day for humanity because your genetic code now passes on to infest another generation. That said, most ST and SW fans are NOT that fanatical... but the few, like yourself, ruin it for the rest of the culture.


Actually to properly be a God you do need worshippers, asshole. Other wise you are just some jerk with powers.

So you are saying that if NOBODY believed in Yaweh that the Christian God would cease to exist? Interesting...

Second, yes he does fear Guinan. If he didn't he would smimply teleport her to a star. But he doesn't, why?

1) He had been stripped of her powers. 2) She has powers of her own. 3) Picard likes keeping Guinan around and as Q owes him a life debt the answer SHOULD be obvious. 4) Why should he? She cannot hurt him... why bother?

Third, creating an maintaining a forcefield with air and warmth inside is well within federation technology.

Indeed it is, but if you notice the force fields in ST always give some sort of shimmer or distortion to let people know Hey, I'm here! Also, if there was a warm pocket of air in the vaccume of space, it would distort the starfields behind it which DOES NOT HAPPEN

Finally Q has not shown the ability to alter minds at all. Hormone levels certainly. But not actual emotions

What, dear Scott, do you think CONTROLS the hormone levels in the body? Your sphincter????

First it is possible to get white hot glowing metal without it being even 350 degrees F. however this is impressive act, that is not obtainable by the untrained.

It's white hot steel and the average person gets "burned" at a little over 225 degrees F. There is no permanent damage, but it hurts. I myself take my showers at nearly 250* to help slough off dead skin cells and grime after working outside/on my truck/in my attic/ wherever. I can actually place my hand down on a stove burner and not get burned imediately. BioFeedback is an intensive training regimine, but it can be very useful.

However I bet you you will find no individual on earth that can have a several minute long sword fight standing just feet above flowing lava and wearing normal clothes. Hell i bet you can find no individual on earth that could survivwe 1000 degree air temperature unaided by technology.

Yes I can- the guys that go up to erupting volcanoes to take Lava Samples. Some do it with Hazard Suits, others do it without them.


Actually no difference as by visuals we know that the front part of the ship does enter Hyperspace first as well as exit it. We also know that misjumps do occur. Mostly resulting in minor damage or temporal displacement. Only extremely rarely does a misjump result in destruction of the ship

now imagine having half the ship go somewhere and the two quarters on either side not going along for the ride. Fine, your ship doesn't explode, it just explosively decompresses and everyone inside dies. *shrug* oh well, it's still unable to do anything

Still it does not matter you have to prove that a sublight ship would be destroyed by a subspace rip, something we have not seen.

See my previous responses in the last post

Actually we have no real indication that a Subpace rip would destroy a ship. Dialogue is well and good, but untill proven by visuals or by the creator, Dialogue is essentially meaningless. Hence why I will drop the 400 gigawat argument. The other one is more fun anyway.

Uh no. You really want the Ent-E to fly INTO a subspace tear JUST TO SEE if it could survive? How stupid do you think these people are? God, I'm glad you won't ever be captain of anything bigger than a rowboat.


Visuals always overide Dialogue. Characters can be mistaken, but a visual cannot be wrong. That's the rules of reality. I mean who do you believe a zoologist saying that Polar bears have white skin, or the shaved polora bear in the background with blackskin?

If a zoologist says polar bears have white skin, then he isn't a zoologist is he. Obviously trained officers talking about their field of expertise which they went thru YEARS of schooling and YEARS of on-site experience... they should know what they are talking about. Then again, we saw how well Star Wars officers know their ships... *grins at the thought of imperial officers all but ignoring rebel fighters only to have the DS explode*

As for the Blasters comment, like you admited with the Disruptor rifle simililarities account for the name. Description and effect as well as the mechnaics of the weapon, lasers heating a blaster gas into a super hot plasma to cuase a particle beam emmission says something else. plus honestly a laser moves at C and Turbolaser bolts just don't move quite that fast.

Only one problem- the discrepency is EXPLAINED in ST... they never state such a thing in Star Wars. And also- Lasers are used in many SciFi movies. THe ONLY reason they don't move at C is because it would be INCREDIBLY boring having ships that simply cannot dodge no matter how fast they are.


Since you cannot remeber and episode name, or even some specifics or thatn a ship destroyed by a tear, we cannot rely on your information. I do rely on the efferct seen with the massive tear that the scientist intentionally caused. Revving up the warp cuased the tear to expand and some damage to the ship. They had to ride out the pulse waves like a frigging surfer.

Show me the episode then. I remember the data logs being brought up about the nebula class ship being destroyed.


Okay realizing that you meant ST. Some have theorized that the testing of the first nuclear bomb would have been visible from the moon. So don't be too cocky.

yes, but that was from the fact that gas rose up to the upper atmosphere and brought tonnes of dust with it. I'm talking the actual EXPLOSION itself. The EXPLOSION of the Photon Torp made it above the atmosphere, not the debris field.

Given how far way the fleet was from the Death Star you hardly would see the explosions. Especially after seeing ROTS and seeing how little damage 12.5 gigatons did to ships like that, even with their shields down. Remeber that SW has stable neutronium in their hulls. maybe not a lot, but enough to make life fun.

No they don't. Neutronium, ala Star Trek CANON, requires an IMENSE gravitational field to control. As such a field, nor even a SIF, is mentioned in SW, their "neutronium" (which Han found ON A MOON AND COULD PICK UP ACCORDING TO YOUR BOOKS) is not Treks super neutronium. And do remember- Quantum torps only loose a little of their effect when combating Neutronium Armor.

That was incredibly boring...

[Hellblade8]

Ahahahah. Yes, indeed, you get laid by your gay lover every night don't you scott. That's why star wars fans have their significant others dress up in princess leigh slave outfits? Sorry, but Trekkies aren't NEARLY as insane as Rabid Warsies like yourself. If you ever get laid, it's a sad day for humanity because your genetic code now passes on to infest another generation

Er, the gay lovers thing was sorta out of line, though not because it was directed at Scott, but rather as its insulting to gay people. Or even gay star wars fans.

Now Scott, you're an idiot. Being a Trekkie doesn't have anything to do with the ability to get a girl. Hell, I'm dating a girl right now, and in fact am going to see a movie with her this Sunday. Your comments are horribly off and are incredibely insulting.

What makes you think that Trekkies are exceptionally ugly or otherwise unable to get dates or even have sex? And of course, what about women trekkies?

[Kittamaru]

*bows slightly* Admitedly they were out of line- I have thusly edited the post to no longer insult anyone else but scott which I don't believe is out of line because his posts are reflecting more and more just how little he knows.

[Hellblade8]

*bows slightly* Admitedly they were out of line- I have thusly edited the post to no longer insult anyone else but scott which I don't believe is out of line because his posts are reflecting more and more just how little he knows.

No worries, I suspect you did it in the heat of the debate, that and its a common insult. However, just like nigger, it tends to offend others who you don't mean to.

But yes, Scott has gone off the deep end. At least when he argued just the weapon yields there was still some respect to his name, though be it just a shred. Now not only has he tried to smear the UFP in such a dark light its not even funny. We all know that the UFP isn't perfect, nor are the writers, but his little fantasies about the UFP being some sort of horrible government worse than the Empire is beyond insanity. He's gone too far with his sexual insults as well.

[Kittamaru]

*shrugs* I can attest to Trekkies having no problem getting laid. Though I'm not proud to admit it, I'm not a virgin anymore and I'm only 19... I'm glad nothing came of it, but it wasn't like I had to pay someone or anything *shrugs* just my girl and I and we got carried away and crossed the line...

[Hellblade8]

*shrugs* I can attest to Trekkies having no problem getting laid. Though I'm not proud to admit it, I'm not a virgin anymore and I'm only 19... I'm glad nothing came of it, but it wasn't like I had to pay someone or anything *shrugs* just my girl and I and we got carried away and crossed the line...

Still a virgin and I'm 19 myself.

Wouldn't be too worried about not being a virgin though.

[Kittamaru]

I'm just proving a point is all. Proving scott wrong is getting all too easy.

[Hellblade8]

I'm just proving a point is all. Proving scott wrong is getting all too easy.

True, even my brother who knows next to nothing about Star Trek could tell you that some of the stuff Scott is pulling out of his ass is bullshit.

[Kittamaru]

I played D&D with a bunch of my friends tonight. Eight of us in all, seven of us are big Wars and Trek fans. ALL OF THEM agreed- Trek would win for sheer firepower, defenses, and ability.

[halo07guy]

Actually Kittamaru, Han was referring to compleatly destroying a planet, as in blowing it to pieces.A fleet of about 8 or so ISDs could turn the surface of a planet into molten slag fairly quickly.

There is absolutely no air in space. It has been proven by astronomers. So an explosive shockwave would be nearly non-existant.

Lasers in names are a misnomer in SW. Scientists have proven that. There was a whole documentary about SW tech that aired fairly recently on the History Channel. I suggest some of you watch it.

I'm willing to bet that the Empirecould win, if it was willing to mass-produce Ark Hammer, Eclipse, Vengence, and Sovereign class Star Destroyers( not so much the Ark Hammer line of ships though). Kuat Drive Yards could probably produce a fairly large number of each class of ship in one month. I mean, it does have a huge metallic ring that circles and orbits it that is entirely devoted to the mass-production of ships.

I'm pretty sure there is proof of replicators in SW tech. I mean, the Empire was only in power for about 40 years, and managed to build up a fleet of 25,000 ISDs in that time period. And about 90% of those were built at Kuat. The Empire does have many production worlds, but having 1 world produce almost your entire fleet has to speak something of production methods and building. You would almost certainly need replicators to make ships that fast. And thats not counting smaller ships or the capabilitys of other worlds.

And the ST people are assuming all their sides would join together. I'm pretty sure the Klingons, Borg, and Cardassians would take advantage of the Federation's situation. The same goes for SW people. To qoute the Prophet of Truth from Halo: " Politics, how tiresome". I mean think about it. The Federation would be invaded by an economically and physically larger empire. Though I'm thinking the Federation would aid the Rebels.

Personally, I think a more intresting match-up would be Halo vs. Battlestar Galactica.

Of course, I wonder how far the more questionably legal groups in the Federation would be willing to go for some Spice, the wonder-drug.