View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #6061
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svarney View Post
    1. Can a pure laser, even it is 12 terawatts, penetrate UFP shields? Well, no weapon on a UFP, Klingon, Romulan, etc... ship carries anywhere near that kind of raw power, but none of them are just plain "lasers" either. A phaser is a beam of directed energy carrying an anti-matter particle stream through SUBSPACE!!! What the heck kind of shield does it take to stop THAT!!!! How would such a shield react to simple massive force????
    1. Powerful lasers are likely to break through the navigation deflector.

      WHO KNOWS?!?!?! The episode frequently referred to wherein the crew laughs at an opponent's "lasers" never says how powerful said lasers were, but I doubt they were 12 terawatts. How would UFP shields react to 12 terawatts? WHO KNOWS?!?!

      First, there's no such thing as a 12 terawatt laser, and second there are no UFP shields at which to fire them.
      Possible.

    2. UFP ships can fight at FTL speeds. Well, can Star Destroyers do that? I don't think they can, but can anyone prove that?
    Well, given that their TLs are manual, as in they have gunner firing, its very doubtful.

  2. Star Destroyers can cross their galaxy in short periods of time. UFP starships can't. Thus, Star Destroyers must be faster than Starships.
UFP ships create a field of warped space around them and it moves them around. ISDs in essence just jump into an alternate galaxy and take a quick slid to where they want to go basicly, which is indeed much faster than UFP ships, though UFP ships are faster at sub-light speeds.

Really? Just how big is the SW galaxy? The ST galaxy is the Milky Way ... a fairly good size galaxy. The universe is full of "dwarf" galaxies and other galaxies smaller than the Milky Way. The Enterprise-D could cross some dwarf galaxies in the same time it takes a Star Destroyer to cross it's galaxy.

Is the SW galaxy a dwarf or small galaxy? WHO KNOWS? If so, then an SD isn’t really any faster than a StarShip, but who can say one way or the other?
Actually the SW galaxy is supposed to be fairly big.

  • Fighters seemed able to fly through the shields of the first Death Star, but not the second. They seemed to fly close enough to SDs to be inside their shields at Endor, but how can you be sure how close they were? If a UFP ship got in that close, it could possibly beam an anti-matter into the engine room and detonate it, but are we sure it CAN get in that close? Who knows???
  • This is because the first Death Star was only ray shielded, and did not have a partical shield, hence why the Empire had created one over Endor's moon and the Death Star II. And no, its unlikely that the UFP would beam in anti-matter, as they would have to lower their shields.

  • Turbolasers can't target ships that can fight at FTL.
    1. You don’t know that. How do SW sensors work, and how fast are their computers. Does anybody know? And how fast would a computer have to be?
    1. Because the TLs are manually aimed, a human cannot fire at FTL objects with any accuracy.

    2. How do you know that UFP ships WOULD be able to fly at FTL in the SW universe. Maybe the reason that UFP uses warp drive and the Empire uses Hyperspace is because the laws of phyics in each universe prevent the other universe's FTL method. It could well be that the one to go to the other one's universe would be unable to go FTL!!!
    As part of a basic rule in these kinds of debates, we assume that the physics are adjusted so that both can work their technobabble.

  • The Force. If they fight in the SW universe, fine. In the ST universe .... The WHAT??? Force? There's no such thing as a "Force".
  • As above.

  • Q. Why would the Q care? Could Q defeat Jedi? Maybe the Q can't even EXIST in the SW universe?
  • Q could on all accounts, but he likely wouldn't care.

    You can go on and on, but none of the arguments anyone has given are unassailable. None of them are iron clad. None of them are indisputable. You are never going to get a final conclusion on this question.
    Actually most of those are pretty basic answers...

    Well, not without my help.

    You see, there's one point I haven't seen mentioned, though I'm not masochistic enough to read all 302 pages. It is the one point that will put an end to this whole argument, that will prove conclusively which side would win.

    Here you go ....


    Remember, SW and ST are both FICTIONAL universes. And in both of these fictional universes, there's ONE LAW OF PHYSICS that holds true in both universes .....

    The Good Guys always win!!!!!

    Janeway managed to defeat ALL the Borg!!!

    Luke Skywalker in a ship smaller than an F-15 managed to blow up THE DEATH STAR!!!!!

    Do you get the idea? In both universes, in the end, no matter the odds ...

    The Good Guys always win!!!!!

    UFP=Good Guys.
    Empire=Bad Guys.

    Therefore, the Federation Starship ... even if it's the NCC-1701 ... will find SOME WAY to defeat the Star Destroyer.

    The UFP will find someway to wipe out, or at least stop, the Imperial invasion force.

    And why?

    Right! The Good Guys always win!!!
    We try to avoid win by plot scenarios, these are pretty much a given.

    So, here's a list in case you get confused.

    1. The UFP would defeat the Empire ... because the good guys always win.
    2. The Rebel Alliance would defeat the Romulans, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Dominion, and the Borg ... AT THE SAME TIME... because the good guys always win.
    3. SG-1 would defeat the Empire... because the good guys always win.
    4. The Rebel Alliance would defeat the Go'aould and the Ori together... because the good guys always win.
    5. Commander Adama in the BattleStar Galactica would defeat the Romulan Empire... because the good guys always win.
    6. Kirk in the NCC-1701 would wipe out the Cylons... because the good guys always win.
    7. John Wayne would defeat the Galactic Empire... because the good guys always win.

    Well, you guys get the idea. The good guys always win, so there's really no point debating this anymore.

    Whew! Glad that’s over!
    [/QUOTE]

    Actually...allow me to display who wins in terms of a all out military war:

    Borg>8472>Empire=Dominion>UFP>Romulans>Klingons>Br een>Gorn>Cardassians>Rebels>Ewoks>Bajorans

  • #6062
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    TNG Relics sensors indicated a Neutronium carbon alloy sehll in the hull of the dyson sphere.

    So obviously in both genres neutronium is just a super heavy metal and not what we consider neutronium
    The Dyson Sphere also had an immense gravitic signature if you remember. That is what keeps NEUTRONium together (Neutron, Neutronium... see the connection? Of course not... idiot)

  • #6063
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    svarney, good point mate. As such, it will be promptly ignored by TW Scott.

    The reason we are arguing with Scott is not to try to convince him ST > SW or vice versa. It's because he's taking one massive shit over everything ST or SW. He is making a mockery of BOTH SciFi Series in an attempt to beat off to his overinflated egotistical fanboism and, quite frankly, it is sickening. Even in the face of cold, hard facts that claim the opposite, he INSISTS he is right EVEN WHEN HE CANNOT SUPPORT IT.

    Disgusting. It really is. You're points are valid and you have given supporting Evidence. Scott... well... yeah. That's more than we can say for him.

  • #6064
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    svarney, good point mate. As such, it will be promptly ignored by TW Scott.

    The reason we are arguing with Scott is not to try to convince him ST > SW or vice versa. It's because he's taking one massive shit over everything ST or SW. He is making a mockery of BOTH SciFi Series in an attempt to beat off to his overinflated egotistical fanboism and, quite frankly, it is sickening. Even in the face of cold, hard facts that claim the opposite, he INSISTS he is right EVEN WHEN HE CANNOT SUPPORT IT.

    Disgusting. It really is. You're points are valid and you have given supporting Evidence. Scott... well... yeah. That's more than we can say for him.
    Agreed, and I would like to mention that I didn't mean to nitpick at your (svarney) post, it was more of a informative response...from my natural need to correct things...I blame Jar-Jar.

  • #6065
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by svarney View Post
    :Could a Federation Starship/The UFP defeat an Imperial StarDestroyer/The Galactic Empire in a battle/war?

    THIS is what you guys are so worked up about. All the other things being discussed on this website ... religion, politics, philosophy ... and YOU GUYS are willing to rip each others' heads of and .... um .... SPIT ... down each others necks over whether ST could beat SW!!!!!!

    Now that's FUNNY!!!!
    Hey, i need some escapism sometimes.

    Look, you SW guys are never going to convince the ST people no matter how hard you try.
    Yeah it is hard to convince people of the truth as the creator of the ST universe saw it.



    Can a pure laser, even it is 12 gigatons (gigatons of WHAT, exactly? TNT? Antimatter? WHAT?), penetrate UFP shields? Well, no weapon on a UFP, Klingon, Romulan, etc... ship carries anywhere near that kind of raw power, but none of them are just plain "lasers" either. A phaser is a beam of directed energy carrying an anti-matter particle stream through SUBSPACE!!! What the heck kind of shield does it take to stop THAT!!!! How would such a shield react to simple massive force????

    WHO KNOWS?!?!?! The episode frequently referred to wherein the crew laughs at an opponent's "lasers" never says how powerful said lasers were, but I doubt they were that 12 gigatons of anything. How would UFP shields react to 12 gigaton blast of whatever? WHO KNOWS?!?!
    Actually incorrect a Pahser is just a partially phaser particle beam made of nadion a fictional particle that causes chain reaction. this beam travels at .985 light and is stopped by even the flimsiest forcefield as well as radiation.

    Also the Outrageous Okona incident was referring to a ship that was A Tiny, B from a backwards civilization, and C vastly under powered.


    First, there's no such thing as a 12 gigaton laser, and second there are no UFP shields at which to fire them.
    In this disccussion they are assumed to exist.


    UFP ships can fight at FTL speeds. Well, can Star Destroyers do that? I don't think they can, but can anyone prove that?
    Actually, ST ships can only fire torpedoes at FTL and even that is iffy. ISD cannot fight at FTL

    Star Destroyers can cross their galaxy in short periods of time. UFP starships can't. Thus, Star Destroyers must be faster than Starships.

    Really? Just how big is the SW galaxy? The ST galaxy is the Milky Way ... a fairly good size galaxy. The universe is full of "dwarf" galaxies and other galaxies smaller than the Milky Way. The Enterprise-D could cross some dwarf galaxies in the same time it takes a Star Destroyer to cross it's galaxy.

    Is the SW galaxy a dwarf or small galaxy? WHO KNOWS? If so, then an SD isn’t really any faster than a StarShip, but who can say one way or the other?
    Canon figure is SW galaxy is 120,000 light hyears or 50% larger than our galaxies 80,000 light years.

    Fighters seemed able to fly through the shields of the first Death Star, but not the second. They seemed to fly close enough to SDs to be inside their shields at Endor, but how can you be sure how close they were? If a UFP ship got in that close, it could possibly beam an anti-matter into the engine room and detonate it, but are we sure it CAN get in that close? Who knows???
    the fist DS did not have overlapping shields. They did not think a 20 meter craft was a threat. Second DS had full shields and could not have same thing done. Any point at BoE where fighters were too close to the ship was when the shields had been pounded down by the rest of the fleet.

    Finally Transporter do not work through dense metals or shields, both of which exist in SW ships




    The Force. If they fight in the SW universe, fine. In the ST universe .... The WHAT??? Force? There's no such thing as a "Force".
    How does Telepathy and telekinesis work then?



    You can go on and on, but none of the arguments anyone has given are unassailable. None of them are iron clad. None of them are indisputable. You are never going to get a final conclusion on this question.

    Well, not without my help.

    You see, there's one point I haven't seen mentioned, though I'm not masochistic enough to read all 302 pages. It is the one point that will put an end to this whole argument, that will prove conclusively which side would win.

    Here you go ....


    Remember, SW and ST are both FICTIONAL universes. And in both of these fictional universes, there's ONE LAW OF PHYSICS that holds true in both universes .....

    The Good Guys always win!!!!!

    Janeway managed to defeat ALL the Borg!!!

    Luke Skywalker in a ship smaller than an F-15 managed to blow up THE DEATH STAR!!!!!

    Do you get the idea? In both universes, in the end, no matter the odds ...

    The Good Guys always win!!!!!

    UFP=Good Guys.
    Empire=Bad Guys.

    Therefore, the Federation Starship ... even if it's the NCC-1701 ... will find SOME WAY to defeat the Star Destroyer.

    The UFP will find someway to wipe out, or at least stop, the Imperial invasion force.

    And why?

    Right! The Good Guys always win!!!

    So, here's a list in case you get confused.

    1. The UFP would defeat the Empire ... because the good guys always win.
    2. The Rebel Alliance would defeat the Romulans, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Dominion, and the Borg ... AT THE SAME TIME... because the good guys always win.
    3. SG-1 would defeat the Empire... because the good guys always win.
    4. The Rebel Alliance would defeat the Go'aould and the Ori together... because the good guys always win.
    5. Commander Adama in the BattleStar Galactica would defeat the Romulan Empire... because the good guys always win.
    6. Kirk in the NCC-1701 would wipe out the Cylons... because the good guys always win.
    7. John Wayne would defeat the Galactic Empire... because the good guys always win.

    Well, you guys get the idea. The good guys always win, so there's really no point debating this anymore.

    Whew! Glad that’s over!

    Depends on your definition of good guys? Even the Empire has more personal freedoms than the UFP.

    Besides using the axiom of the goodgusy always wins is pointless. It's just not true. yeah if they made a movie of it the good guys would win. Problem is we are taking this discussion beyond that.

    Would you argue that John McClane (Die Hard) could defeat Megatron?
    Would you argue that Bat Man could defeat Galactus?
    Would you argue that Lancelot could defeat a German Panzer?

    There are enemies out there too powerful for the good guys to defeat. Yes the UFP has done well for now, but they were up against foes that did not have horrendoes advantages in nearly every aspect of combat and were willing to use them.
    Last edited by TW Scott; 07-11-07 at 01:45 AM.

  • #6066
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    The Dyson Sphere also had an immense gravitic signature if you remember. That is what keeps NEUTRONium together (Neutron, Neutronium... see the connection? Of course not... idiot)
    Well, an immense gravitic signature would be standard for a structure that would easily outweigh a star, even if it was construction of liquid hydrogen. However it does not matter. the sensors had found a Nuetronium-Carbon alloy. One does not alloy a degenerate matter with anything, mainly becuase by definition it is not possible.......idiot.

  • #6067
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Yeah it is hard to convince people of the truth as the creator of the ST universe saw it.
    You mean the one who had his ships zipping halfway across the galaxy, giving even nut-hospitals planetary shields, and giving the UFP the ability to make a quick bomb that blew off half the atmosphere off a planet?





    Actually incorrect a Pahser is just a partially phaser particle beam made of nadion a fictional particle that causes chain reaction. this beam travels at .985 light and is stopped by even the flimsiest forcefield as well as radiation.
    Not really, only low level phasers are stopped by radiation. And phasers can cut into shields.

    Also the Outrageous Okona incident was referring to a ship that was A Tiny, B from a backwards civilization, and C vastly under powered.
    True.

    Actually, ST ships can only fire torpedoes at FTL and even that is iffy. ISD cannot fight at FTL
    Actually, they can also fire phasers as well, as proven in a ton of episodes. The fact is that firing out of the Warp bubble causes the weapon to weaken, making it fairly less effective, hence they prefer photons.

    Canon figure is SW galaxy is 120,000 light hyears or 50% larger than our galaxies 80,000 light years.
    Um...50% larger than our galaxy would place it 160,000 lightyears by those calcs.


    the fist DS did not have overlapping shields. They did not think a 20 meter craft was a threat. Second DS had full shields and could not have same thing done. Any point at BoE where fighters were too close to the ship was when the shields had been pounded down by the rest of the fleet.
    Actually, it wasn't the DS II's shield, but the ground base shield on Endor.

    Finally Transporter do not work through dense metals or shields, both of which exist in SW ships
    No, only exotic materials or exceptionally thick armor can stop transporters. You have to prove that it can stop transporters for that to work. Of course, seeing as how easily a astroid cleaves off the bridge of an ISD...







    Depends on your definition of good guys? Even the Empire has more personal freedoms than the UFP.
    ...No it doesn't. And for one, the UFP doesn't go around blowing up planets. Of is that the Empire granting the Alderaans their right to a horrible death?

  • #6068
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    There are enemies out there too powerful for the good guys to defeat. Yes the UFP has done well for now, but they were up against foes that did not have horrendoes advantages in nearly every aspect of combat and were willing to use them.
    You mean by ignoring G-Level Canon, as well as ignoring the fact the UFP has shown as far as on screen visuals go, the ability to blow holes around its own size into a large Borg Cube, covering an area equal to that of an ISD? Or how about Taste of Armageddon, where General order 24 had Scotty preparing the Enterprise to destroy all habital areas of the planet to be destroyed? Or how about when Kirk was worrying if he should destroy all colony (a planet colony by the way) so as to stop the spread of a parasite? Or how about when they rigged up that bomb to blow up that huge omeba? Or how about in the Die is Cast they destroyed 30% of a planet's crust in their opening volly? Or how about Broken Link where its stated that the Defiant alone can slag an entire planet, and apparently kill all the inhabitents of a planet before the exceptionally large Jem'Hadar attack fleet obliterates them, or the Jem'Hadar on the Defiant find them? Or how about in Relics when the Enterprise withstood the solar flares of an unstable sun for three hours with shields at 23% power before they would no longer be protected? Or how about in Masks when the Enterprise D melt off the ice of a large comet larger than their ship with the main phaser array at 10% power? Or how about when the DS9 crew left that bomb on that Dominion outpost that destroyed it and everything withing several hundred kilometers. And again, how about when the Enterprise crew used a quick home made bomb to blow off half the atmosphere off of a planet? That's like 14 or 15 high end yield events from Star Trek.

    What do you have on your side of low firepower? Oh right, so far it amounts to one episode, which is at suspect given just how stupid it is to assume that 400 gigawatts can blow out the UFP shields. Given that said ship eliminated all life on a planet, and that said ship attacking them was created by an incredibely powerful enetity who can mind fuck empaths. Said being himself killed off an entire race with a single thought.

    Yeah, go live in your sad, sad little world of where the UFP has incredibely low yields.

  • #6069
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellblade8 View Post
    You mean the one who had his ships zipping halfway across the galaxy, giving even nut-hospitals planetary shields, and giving the UFP the ability to make a quick bomb that blew off half the atmosphere off a planet?
    All of that was plot device. Though I would argue that shielding a mental ward would be a good idea.

    Not really, only low level phasers are stopped by radiation. And phasers can cut into shields.
    Even the flimsiest shield stops the further progress of a phaser. It's not like the beam just drills through a weak field. it knocks it down then you have to shoot again.

    As for the radiaton low levels effect hand phasers and guess what high levels would do

    Actually, they can also fire phasers as well, as proven in a ton of episodes. The fact is that firing out of the Warp bubble causes the weapon to weaken, making it fairly less effective, hence they prefer photons.
    Actually the phaser is strictly limited .985 c. Firing a phaser forwards at warp would running into your own blast.

    Um...50% larger than our galaxy would place it 160,000 lightyears by those calcs.
    Our glalaxy ~80,000 light year according to NASA among others


    Actually, it wasn't the DS II's shield, but the ground base shield on Endor.
    Semantics when the thing was built it would have had a similar shield system internally.

    No, only exotic materials or exceptionally thick armor can stop transporters. You have to prove that it can stop transporters for that to work. Of course, seeing as how easily a astroid cleaves off the bridge of an ISD...
    First many different materials stops Transporters. hell there was a planetoid made of talc that stopped transporters. Dirt and concrete stopped transporters. Doesn't matter Neutronium is part of SW armor and ST transporter have problems with Neutronium.

    As for the Bridge towers sanpping off. The ISD was unshelded thanks to using the Holonet to transmit to Vader. Even then that asteroid EXPLODED on the surface, not drove through like similiar impacts on ST vessels.

    ...No it doesn't. And for one, the UFP doesn't go around blowing up planets. Of is that the Empire granting the Alderaans their right to a horrible death?
    Hey that was one military leader who might have been reprimanded had he survived. then again it was no different than what was planned in Insurrection and that was the Federation agreeing to it.

    Rights you posses in the Empire that you don't in the Federation.
    *Right to Bear Arms
    *Right to Peacably assemble
    *Right to a trial by jury
    *Right to appeal
    *Right to own and operate a business other than farm, bar or restuarant
    *Right to travel without notifying the Empire
    *Right to owner and operate a Starship
    *Right to arm your starship
    *Right to own land
    *Right to explore
    *Right to Advance Education without military service.
    Last edited by TW Scott; 07-11-07 at 02:41 AM.

  • #6070
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    All of that was plot device. Though I would argue that shielding a mental ward would be a good idea.
    So is the Death Star. Its canon.



    Even the flimsiest shield stops the further progress of a phaser. It's not like the beam just drills through a weak field. it knocks it down then you have to shoot again.
    Or perhaps those shields are justs strong?

    As for the radiaton low levels effect hand phasers and guess what high levels would do
    Low levels only stopped 23rd century phasers.

    Actually the phaser is strictly limited .985 c. Firing a phaser forwards at warp would running into your own blast.
    Tell that to the writing staff.

    Our glalaxy ~80,000 light year according to NASA among others
    I know, you said that the SW galaxy is 120,000 light years, and also said it was 50% larger than our own galaxy. It would be 160,000 light years.

    Semantics when the thing was built it would have had a similar shield system internally.
    Proof?

    First many different materials stops Transporters. hell there was a planetoid made of talc that stopped transporters. Dirt and concrete stopped transporters. Doesn't matter Neutronium is part of SW armor and ST transporter have problems with Neutronium.
    Wait, a planetoid, you mean with alot of dirt and rock? Of course its going to stop transporters. And which one did you mean, the one from pegasus? The one where the ship was stuck deep inside and the Enterprise could easily fit inside?

    As for the Bridge towers sanpping off. The ISD was unshelded thanks to using the Holonet to transmit to Vader. Even then that asteroid EXPLODED on the surface, not drove through like similiar impacts on ST vessels.
    Wait, they have to lower their shields to use a fucking holonet?

    So Vader, has them expose themselves to the dangers and possibly lose a warship in their search because he wanted to speak face to face? Wow, Vader is a FUCKING MORON!

    I no longer wonder why the Elite Storm Troopers got their asses kicked by knee high teddy bears with bows and arrows.

    Hey that was one military leader who might have been reprimanded had he survived. then again it was no different than what was planned in Insurrection and that was the Federation agreeing to it.
    Yeah, because we all know that Vader was really against it...oh, and by the way, it is different as the out cry of the rest of the UFP and the citizens forced the UFP council to back off. Also, the UFP was tricked into it. They thought they where removing primitives from a planet to another planet of similar climent just so they could help countless billions of lives. They where wrong, but they thought they where doing the right thing. As soon as it was revealed that it was a secret blood war, the Admiral in charge himself tried to put and end to it, and would have had he not been murdered.


    Rights you posses in the Empire that you don't in the Federation.

    *Right to Bear Arms
    Wow, I guess Worf should have arrested that old man back in Survivors for possesing a weapon.

    *Right to Peacably assemble
    Bullshit.

    *Right to a trial by jury
    You mean like Kirk, Picard, and a few others didn't have a right to a jury-oh, wait, they did!

    *Right to appeal
    Evidence?

    *Right to own and operate a business other than farm, bar or restuarant
    Wow, Sisko's father is going to be pissed...

    *Right to travel without notifying the Empire
    Wow, same basic right in the UFP.

    *Right to owner and operate a Starship
    Same right.

    *Right to arm your starship
    Which you do have in the UFP as long as its not against the law to own like mass planet wide killing chemicals. Or sub-space weapons.

    *Right to own land
    Add Worf's Foster Parents to the list. And Picard's dead family. And Janeway's husband. And pretty much every UFP member...

    *Right to explore
    ...ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!

    Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise.
    Her five year mission: to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life
    and new civilizations. To boldly go where no man has gone before.
    THE WHOLE POINT OF FUCKING STARFLEET IS TO EXPLORE YOU RETARDED PIECE OF RADIOACTIVE LUMP-SHIT!

    HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED STAR TREK IN YOUR FUCKING LIFE?!

    I mean FUCK! What are you, stupid? Where do you get this shit?! I love it how you just make these retarded claims, and yet we know for a fucking fact that 7 of 9's parents left UFP territory to expore and seek first contact with the fucking Borg. Did the UFP stop them? NO! Even though they where warned that the UFP would not come to save them (in part because they could not).

    *Right to Advance Education without military service.
    Wow, add Dr. Soong to that list.

    Scott, you have just destroyed my last shred of respect for you. Claiming bullshit tech claims is bad enough, but this shit is just fucking moronic. I know people who agree with you who wouldn't declare this kind of shit.

    You are in short, a moron.

  • #6071
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Well, an immense gravitic signature would be standard for a structure that would easily outweigh a star, even if it was construction of liquid hydrogen. However it does not matter. the sensors had found a Nuetronium-Carbon alloy. One does not alloy a degenerate matter with anything, mainly becuase by definition it is not possible.......idiot.
    Well APPARENTLY they did, because in Star Trek high-canon (ON SCREEN) it was STATED that Neutronium is known to be degenerate when removed from the neutron star and ONLY a powerful gravity well can keep it somewhat stabilized. Hence why the DDD was such a strange thing to encounter and why the DysonSphere was 1) So damn big 2) Near Indestructible 3) Unstable.

    How about you try actually watching ST once in a while... idiot.

  • #6072
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    All of that was plot device. Though I would argue that shielding a mental ward would be a good idea.



    Even the flimsiest shield stops the further progress of a phaser. It's not like the beam just drills through a weak field. it knocks it down then you have to shoot again.

    As for the radiaton low levels effect hand phasers and guess what high levels would do



    Actually the phaser is strictly limited .985 c. Firing a phaser forwards at warp would running into your own blast.



    Our glalaxy ~80,000 light year according to NASA among others




    Semantics when the thing was built it would have had a similar shield system internally.



    First many different materials stops Transporters. hell there was a planetoid made of talc that stopped transporters. Dirt and concrete stopped transporters. Doesn't matter Neutronium is part of SW armor and ST transporter have problems with Neutronium.

    As for the Bridge towers sanpping off. The ISD was unshelded thanks to using the Holonet to transmit to Vader. Even then that asteroid EXPLODED on the surface, not drove through like similiar impacts on ST vessels.



    Hey that was one military leader who might have been reprimanded had he survived. then again it was no different than what was planned in Insurrection and that was the Federation agreeing to it.

    Rights you posses in the Empire that you don't in the Federation.
    *Right to Bear Arms
    *Right to Peacably assemble
    *Right to a trial by jury
    *Right to appeal
    *Right to own and operate a business other than farm, bar or restuarant
    *Right to travel without notifying the Empire
    *Right to owner and operate a Starship
    *Right to arm your starship
    *Right to own land
    *Right to explore
    *Right to Advance Education without military service.
    *blinks* What... the... fuck... Scott. Are you FUCKING RETARDED? No, don't answer that, i already know the answer. Jesus Christ... the Right to Explore? WHAT? The entire POINT of Star Trek is to EXPLORE! Arm your starship which apparently you cannot own??? WHAAAT? Right to a trial? Federation Council anyone? The fact that ANY starship captain can A) Serve as a judge on his ship and B) Serve also as an anoited to do weddings! Come on scott!

  • #6073
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    6,312
    Oh, and Scott: The Milky Way is a bit larger than that:

    Size and Shape of the Milky Way

    The Milky Way is a large galaxy comprising an estimated 200 billion stars (some estimates range as high as 400 billion) arrayed in the form of a disk, with a central elliptical bulge (some 12,000 light-years in diameter) of closely packed stars lying in the direction of Sagittarius. It is surrounded by a flat disk marked by six spiral arms—four major and two minor—which wind out from the nucleus like a giant pinwheel. Because of these arms, the Milky Way was classified as a spiral galaxy. However, increasing evidence indicates that the Milky Way probably has a bar or barlike structure of new, bright stars in its central region. This would modify its classification to a barred spiral or an intermediate type between barred and “normal” spiral. Our sun is situated in one of the smaller arms, called the Local or Orion Arm, that connect the more substantial next inner arm and the next outer arm. The sun lies roughly two thirds of the way from the center of the disk, which is some 28,000 light-years distant, and in the galactic plane. When we look in the plane of the disk we see the combined light of its stars as the Milky Way. The diameter of the disk is c.100,000 light-years; its average thickness is 10,000 light-years, increasing to 30,000 light-years at the nucleus.

    Certain features of the region near the sun suggested that our galaxy resembles the Andromeda Galaxy. In 1951 a group led by William Morgan detected evidence of spiral arms in Orion and Perseus. Another bright arm stretches from Sagittarius to Carina in the southern sky. With the development of radio astronomy, scientists have extended a nearly complete map of the spiral structure of the galaxy by tracing regions of hydrogen that dominate the spiral arms.

    Surrounding the galaxy is a large spherical halo of globular star clusters that extends to a diameter of about 130,000 light-years; this is called the stellar halo. The galaxy also has a vast outer spherical region called the corona, or dark halo, which is as much as 600,000 light years in diameter and, in addition to dark matter which accounts for most of the Milky Way's mass, includes some distant globular clusters, the two nearby galaxies called the Magellanic clouds, and four smaller galaxies.
    http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0859648.html

    If the Milky Way were the size of a penny, how big would the rest of the universe be?

    A penny is about 1 inch across. If this equals 100,000 light years as the diameter of the Milky Way, the Andromeda Galaxy is about 23 inches away, the Virgo Cluster of Galaxies is about 60 million light years or 600 inches away, and the nearest quasar, 3C273 is about 1.5 billion light years or 150,000 inches or a bit over 2 miles away.

    The visible universe has a horizon at about 14 billion light years and the most distant galaxies seen by the Hubble Space Telescope are nearly at this limit at about 12-13 billion light years. This is about 15 - 20 miles away from the Milky Way 'penny' and is the farthest we can ever see. Because our best model for the universe consistent with data is that it is infinite, then of course there is much more space even at the scale of our penny! In our scale model, though our horizon is at 20 miles from us, the rest of the currently unobservable universe stretches thousands or even millions of miles beyond the last 'penny' we can see. As the universe gets older, these more distant pennies will come into view, but of course we will see them as they were when they were much younger that the actually are.
    http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q2139.html

    Oh, and don't forget- most Space Travel occurs in 3D... so give an indication of the depth, breadth, and width of the galaxy. And don't forget- the galaxy, you know, generally moves? So the spiral arms could be accounting for large distance variations.

  • #6074
    I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Enterprise-D's Avatar
    Posts
    1,898
    Quote Originally Posted by TW's refuted list
    Rights you posses in the Empire that you don't in the Federation. (unfounded garbage TW)



    *Right to Bear Arms - Bajoran militia, Maquis. The Maquis' crime was not ceding territory that was politically negotiated.

    *Right to Peacably assemble - constant peacable assemblies of Bajorans on DS9.

    *Right to a trial by jury - All trials are subject to the World's jurisdictions and laws, whether it includes a jury or not, the World's sovereignty is held highest, not necessarily Earth's or Vulcan's.
    *Right to appeal - See above. The appeals process is World dependant. The UFP does indeed have it's own appeal procedure. It is only mentioned however, since it would be an extremely boring episode if it were case and appeal.

    *Right to own and operate a business other than farm, bar or restuarant - Quark has a casino license. Robert Picard, before death was a vineyard owner and wines provider. Risa, the pleasure planet, is a tourism industry solely. Bajor has had many trade officials visit DS9. Benjamin Sisko's girlfriend Cassidy Yates is an independant trader (continued below as only one example of many...)

    *Right to travel without notifying the Empire ...who travels by merely registering a flight plan; such things are required for order and emergency planning, not dictatorship.

    *Right to owner and operate a Starship - ...who also owns and operates her own ship.

    *Right to arm your starship ...who's ship is also armed, albeit her armaments won't match a military grade starship. I'd love to see you TW, arm yourself to combat the US military tho

    *Right to own land ...who bought land on Bajor with Benjamin. Picard's family owns prime vineyard lands in LaBarre, France. Riker owns land in Alaska. Deanna Troi's mother, an Ambassador, owns property on Betazed. Kathryn Janeway owns land in Arizona.

    *Right to explore - Captain Picard is also an archeologist. As is Vash (a non Starfleet love interest of Picard).

    *Right to Advance Education without military service. Vash-archeologist; Soong - AI scientist; Sarek - Ambassador, no military service; Lwaxana Troi - Ambassador, no military service; Jake Sisko - freelance reporter, no military service
    Scott...are you desperate enough to hold onto a solo-perceived superior position that you begin to attack political merits? I have included counterexamples in red (all episode canon) against your claims.

    Even though Hellblade already addressed this, there are many more examples in the Federation of these rights. Plus you need to add the fact that the Federation will recognize the rights of non-carbon based life forms (Data, and partially Voyager's EMH). Hm...Data was second in command of Starfleet's flagship. The EMH has commanded Voyager twice. Wars best cyborg was a crook and not strictly AI, and the rest are servants, with no rights.
    Last edited by Enterprise-D; 07-11-07 at 01:19 PM.

  • #6075
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
    Posts
    1,099
    And really Scott, this is all really sad. Because the only reason why Star Wars wins in the end is thanks to the UFP handicap Trekkies tend to place on the UFP in debates. Even if we gave you 200 gigatons per HTL, you would still not beat the UFP with the handicap gone.

  • #6076
    Correct. Trek isn't about firepower, it's technique.

    Many times it's not the power of the weapon...Its defeating their shields, using tractor beams to restrict motion, modulation, energy drain weapons, transporter bombs and tricobalt signitures.

  • #6077
    Valued Senior Member Hellblade8's Avatar
    Posts
    1,099
    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    Correct. Trek isn't about firepower, it's technique.

    Many times it's not the power of the weapon...Its defeating their shields, using tractor beams to restrict motion, modulation, energy drain weapons, transporter bombs and tricobalt signitures.
    Indeed, forget about the photons and the phasers, worry about that deflector dish.

  • #6078
    Gosh yeah. The Deflector would wipe away a ship like the ISD like bug spray. Even the Super Star Destroyer would be hulled by that blast.

    As a rule when it came to needing fire power Federation technology always has had the ability

  • #6079
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    6,312
    You want the ultimate "weapon" in Star Trek? How about these:

    Cascading biogenic pulse

    The cascading biogenic pulse was first used in 2379 by Praetor Shinzon to assassinate the Romulan senate in Star Trek: Nemesis. Shinzon's attempt to use a ship-mounted version to kill the crew of the USS Enterprise-E is thwarted by Lieutenant Commander Data, who is killed in the process.[5]

    The biogenic pulse uses thalaron radiation to kill all biological life within its range.[5] Thalaron radiation's massive destructive potential leads the Federation to consider it a biogenic weapon.[5]

    Metreon cascade

    The metreon cascade was designed by Dr. Ma'Bor Jetrel of the Haakonian Order. Unstable metreon isotopes were used to create a devastating explosion, with radiation effects similar to those of the 20th-century atomic bomb. Those not killed or vaporized in the initial blast suffered terrible radiation poisoning and death in the aftermath. It was used only once, on the Talaxian moon Rinax in 2355.[6]

    Trilithium resin

    A substance lethal to humans, but harmless to Cardassians. A team of terrorists attempted to steal Trilithium resin from the warp core of the Enterprise-D when it was docked at Arkaria station to receive a baryon sweep.[7] Captain Benjamin Sisko would later use Trilithium resin torpedoes to render Maquis planets uninhabitable to all human life for fifty years by detonating them in the atmosphere.[8]

    Cobalt diselenide

    A biogenic weapon that affects the nervous system. Lethal to Cardassians, but harmless to most other humanoids.[8]
    Chroniton torpedoes

    Chroniton torpedoes phase in and out of normal time and have been twice seen used by the Krenim. Their temporal nature makes them extremely dangerous and potent.[10] Their reliability is not absolute, as Seven of Nine and Tuvok find an undetonated chroniton torpedo lodged in Voyager's hull.[10]

    [edit] Gravimetric torpedoes

    Used by the Borg. The weapon emits a complex phase varience of gravitons to create a gravimetric distortion. Strong gravimetric distortions can severely damage or completely destroy a starship.

    [edit] Photon torpedoes
    An Akira class starship fires photon torpedoes
    An Akira class starship fires photon torpedoes

    A photon torpedo is a torpedo weapon armed with an antimatter warhead. The Enterprise episode Sleeping Dogs reveals that the Klingons have had photon torpedo technology since as early as 2151. Photon torpedoes first appear on a Starfleet ship in the Original Series episode "Arena" as part of the USS Enterprise's armament. The key ships and installations in subsequent Star Trek spin-offs, other than Star Trek: Enterprise, are also armed with photon torpedoes.

    Photon torpedoes appear red,[11] orange,[12] yellow or blue[13] when fired.

    Furthermore, smaller Starfleet craft such as shuttlecraft and Runabouts can be armed with 'micro-torpedoes', a scaled-down version of photon torpedoes designed for use on craft too small to accommodate the full-sized torpedoes.

    [edit] Plasma torpedo

    Used by the Romulans and Cardassians. The damage of a plasma torpedo spreads out over several systems at once, but the torpedo loses its effectiveness after only a few minutes of travel.

    [edit] Quantum torpedoes
    Quantum torpedoes fired by the Enterprise-E
    Quantum torpedoes fired by the Enterprise-E

    Quantum torpedoes first appear in the Deep Space Nine episode "Defiant" as a weapon aboard the USS Defiant. Additionally, the USS Enterprise-E fires quantum torpedoes in Star Trek: First Contact and Star Trek: Nemesis. The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual states that Quantum torpedoes derive their destructive power from zero-point energy.[14]

    Four of the USS Enterprise-E's quantum torpedoes can destroy a Borg sphere[12]if targeted properly. Quantum torpedoes are not entirely effective against solid neutronium.[15]

    [edit] Spatial torpedoes
    A spatial torpedo
    A spatial torpedo

    Spatial torpedoes are 22nd century weapons used by the Enterprise. Spatial torpedoes are the ship's most powerful and primary ship-to-ship weapon prior to the installation of phase cannons.[2] Spatial torpedoes are themselves superseded by more powerful photonic torpedoes.[16] Unlike photonic torpedoes or any of the warhead's successors, spatial torpedoes are launched at sub-light velocity and can be used much in the manner of a missile, having the warhead on a fly-by-wire.[17]

    [edit] Transphasic torpedoes

    Transphasic torpedoes appear only once, in the Voyager series finale, Endgame. They are high-yield torpedoes that are designed specifically to fight the Borg. The future Admiral Janeway brought them back in time in a Federation shuttle-craft and had them installed onboard Voyager in 2377. They are among the most powerful weapons used in the Star Trek universe; this is evident from the fact that one torpedo is capable of destroying an entire Borg Cube, a feat normally requiring a severe amount of punishment using standard Federation weapons.
    Scott, I would like to point out THIS QUOTE:

    Quantum torpedoes are not entirely effective against solid neutronium.[15]

    BOOSH! Neutronium hull or not, you are screwed!

    Subspace weapons are a class of directed energy weapons that directly affect subspace. The weapons can produce actual tears in subspace, and are extremely unpredictable. These weapons were banned under the second Khitomer Accords.

    [edit] Isolytic burst

    Son'a vessels carried and used isolytic burst weapons, a type of subspace weapon. They were seen using this weapon against the Enterprise-E in Star Trek: Insurrection. The Enterprise was only able to escape the weapons effect by ejecting its warp core and detonating it.

    [edit] Tricobalt devices

    USS Voyager uses a pair of tricobalt devices to destroy the Caretaker array in the Star Trek: Voyager pilot episode, "Caretaker". Tricobalt devices are not a standard armament of Federation vessels and yields are calculated in Tera-Cochranes. The tricobalt warhead is a subspace weapon whose high-yield detonations can tear holes in subspace.[18][19]
    Multi Kinetic Neutronic Mines

    During Season 4, Episode 1 (09/03/1997 Stardate: 51003.7) of Star Trek: Voyager, Captain Janeway (Kate Mulgrew) consults with Borg representative Seven of Nine (Jeri Ryan) on how to destroy Species 8472. Janeway calls Seven of Nine's "multikinetic neutronic mine. Five million isoton yield" a "Weapon of Mass Destruction." Following up on a statement from Tuvok (Tim Russ) that it would affect the entire Solar System destroying innocent worlds, Seven of Nine replies, "It would be efficient."

    [edit] Dreadnought

    Dreadnought was a Cardassian self-guided missile, containing one thousand kilograms of matter, and another thousand of antimatter. Tuvok describes this as enough to destroy a small moon. Although described as a self-guided missile, in practice Dreadnought functioned much like an autonomous starship. It possessed shields, phasers, a complement of quantum torpedoes, a Thoron shock emitter, a plasma wave weapon, engines capable of reaching at least Warp 9, and a sophisticated computer AI. It appeared in the Voyager episode of the same name, wherein it had been captured by the Maquis it had been originally sent to destroy and reprogrammed to attack its original creators, although unforeseen events led it to target innocents in the Delta Quadrant.

    [edit] Series 5 Long Range Tactical Armor Unit

    Similar in purpose to the Cardassian Dreadnought, the Tactical Armor Units were self-guided missiles with sophisticated artificial intelligance. They were much smaller than Dreadnought, being only a few feet in length, and while nowhere near as powerful, they were nonetheless classified as weapons of mass destruction, capable of destroying an everything in a 200-kilometer radius with a highly focused antimatter explosion. They possessed shielding, warp drive of unclarified speed, and their AIs were programmed to do whatever was necessary to reach their targets and detonate. Their sensors could detect attempts to tamper with them. They were created by a race called the Druoda, in the Delta Quandrant.[20]
    Disruptors

    Disruptors are employed by the Cardassian Union, Romulan Star Empire, Klingon Empire, Breen, and Orions in their personal and military small arms as well as being mounted as cannon, emitters, turrets, and banks.

    [edit] Lasers

    Lasers are a sidearm in the original Star Trek pilot "The Cage", and laser pistols appear in several Original Series episodes.

    In one instance, the ship-mounted lasers of two spacecraft were incapable of overcoming the navigational shields of the USS Enterprise-D.[1]

    [edit] Phase cannons

    Phase cannons are 22nd century weapons, several of which first appear mounted to the Enterprise in the Star Trek: Enterprise episode "Silent Enemy". Phase cannons have a variable yield, with the cannons on the Enterprise being rated for a maximum output of 500 gigajoules.[2] Phase cannons generally are more powerful than spatial torpedoes.[3]

    [edit] Phased polaron cannon

    These are weapons that were first encountered when contact with the Dominion was made. The cannon emits a beam of polaron particles, the antimatter counterpart of the muon. Polaron beams were quite effective at tearing through most Alpha Quadrant races' shields. Prior to the occupation of Deep Space Nine, Federation and Klingon ships made modifications to their shields to prevent polaron weapons from penetrating them. During the episode Call to Arms Weyoun, the Vorta advisor in the attack fleet expresses surprise that the Federation shields can now withstand their weaponry.

    [edit] Phasers

    Phasers are common directed-energy weapons first seen in the original Star Trek and later seen or referenced in almost all subsequent films and TV spin-offs except for the phase cannons of Enterprise. Phaser is a backronym for PHASed Energy Rectification.

    Phasers appear as both personal hand-held weapons and as starship-mounted weapons. Hand-held phasers have a variety of settings, able to "stun," "heat," "disrupt," "disintegrate," and "vaporize." Capable of being used as welding torches or cutting tools, they can be set to "overload," whereby they build up a force-chamber explosion internally; the resulting blast will destroy most natural objects within a 50-yard radius. Hand phasers can also be set to fire in "Wide Beam" mode, to defeat multiple targets at once. The phasers mounted on the USS Enterprise also can fire a stun blast capable of incapacitating groups of people on a planet's surface.[4] Similar to the hand phaser, ship phasers can also be fired to evenly disintegrate a target object such as meteors and asteroids.

    The hand-held phasers include a larger rifle which has similar settings to the smaller phasers. The rifle is more powerful than the smaller phasers, there have been a number of different types of phaser rifles, most notably the phase compression rifle which has appeared in a number of Voyager episodes and in all the recent films from First Contact to Nemesis.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_Star_Trek

    So, Scott. Would you like the ashes of your SSD sent back in a silver or golden urn?

  • #6080
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    6,312
    Wiki Warp Speeds

    warp 9.2 translates to 306,714,000 miles/sec. Travel to Proxima Centuri from Earth would only take 22.58 hours

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